Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[AsynchronousIO]

WTF, are we seriously considering dropping the best revenge-killer in the game from A+? Are we that bored already? To be honest I'd first suspect Talonflame before dropping it down. This along with Thundurus and Excadrill are setup sweepers have such a hard time in this meta and why we are more bulky offense than fast offense nowadays.

I don't use Doom as much as I should for something that I love so much, but srsly, people aren't using Doom right if they think it NEEDS Solar Power. Solar Power is nice but it's situational, and at least you can abuse opposing Char Y. It's a little better than Keldeo whose ability is absolutely useless and it's not holding Keld back. Granted Keld is much better but still. Doom has great coverage (not much I can think of resists Fire/Dark), meaning you can run NP and Taunt to stallbreak. It also has some power and nice enough speed that it isn't totally useless against offense once it's MEvolved.

 

[escarlata]

Mega Houndoom is one of those Pokemon that is much better in practice than on paper. After Mega Evolving, it has a fantastic speed tier that outspeeds a good portion of the meta. While it does not have sky high SpA, it has a good STAB combination only resisted by Ttar, Azumarill, Mega Gyara, Terrakion, Keldeo (and Greninja & Crawdaunt but they have the bulk of a wet tissue). Even with a pretty average 140 SpA, its Fire Blast still hits about as hard as Mega Alakazam Psychic, which is still pretty hard to switch into. While its typing gives it several common weaknesses, it also provides it with a a ton of useful resistances. Here's a list of things off the top of my head which Taunt+NP basically gets a free NP on: defensive Heatran without Earth Power, +0 Bisharp, CM Clefable, EQ-less Gliscor, Stallbreaker Mew, Bulky SD Mega Scizor, practically every defensive Grass type, Skarmory, Gengar, Chansey below 75% HP. These are all found on very common teams, many of which in top 20 in terms of usage stats, especially Heatran which is currently number 2 in terms of usage. This means it almost always can get to set up against many teams. Also, it doesn't need Solar Power to deal damage. It is just a pseudo Nasty Plot in the case you are up against a Zard Y user, which is not uncommon. Simply put, despite its mediocre SpA, it is unlikely that it will be attacking with unboosted SpA. What hold is back is obviously its vulnerability to common priority, Stealth Rock, and the fact that Solar Power wears it down. Oh and 75/90/90 bulk is actually not that bad, it survives 252+ Breloom Technician Mach Punch 100% of the time for instance, and even has a good chance at surviving Choice Band Azumarill Aqua Jet and Talonflame Brave Bird, which shows it does not auto lose to priority. Someone brought up Azelf and Thundurus as competition, but neither has as many safe set up opportunities as Houndoom, and Houndoom hits harder than both because better STABs, so he is the better NP user.
Overall, Houndoom is not outclassed in its role, not ineffective in its role, the role it holds is not extremely niche, does not require too much team support. As of aforesaid reasons, I have no problem keeping it in C. I might try to push for C+/B- because its arguably better than Absol in the metagame for instance.

 

[Aqqq]

You forgot to mention the worst issue of it: Its ability, the one that lets it hit hard, requires sun to be used, and if you are using Mega Houndoom, your only sun setter is... Ninetales, which says enough that it has virtually no ability, unless you decide to set up Sunny Day (Which means either no NP or bad coverage).

This is not particularly good logic unless you are making a specific comparison to some other Pokemon that does have a useful ability. Yes, Mega Houndoom's ability does not improve its viability in any significant way. But it doesn't make it less viable or flawed in any way, it just means it doesn't get a boost in viability from its ability that some other Pokemon get. This was discussed to death earlier in relation to Mega Alakazam, when someone claimed that the "unreliability" of Trace was a major flaw.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Victini: Keep B+
Jirachi: Keep B+
Magnezone: Keep B+
Staraptor: B- -----> B
Starmie: Keep B+ (this, if you ask me, should drop into B-/C+, because it's too outclassed)
Weavile: B- ------> B


Victini: Victini is kinda predictable, weak to Pursuit and SR, and has no reliably recovery move, making it less effective as a stallbreaker than Mew in my opinion. Also, is Victini really as effective as Mega Aero in this meta?
Jirachi: Due to the prevalence of Knock Off, Azumarill and Zard X, this guy has no easy task doing its job in OU. Sure, it's a great Mega Gardy check, but I don't think it should rise into A-.
Magnezone: It fits well on dragmag, birdspam and most offensive teams and hits hard as hell, but it has one sole job: removing steel-types. Until you realize Mega Scizor can get past it with Superpower and Shed Sheel Skarm/Ferro are becoming more and more common.
Staraptor: This guy needs to rise. It's a great partner to Talonflame in birdspam teams and has almost no true counters due to Brave Bird's sheer power. It's not as weak to SR as Talonflame, gets Close Combat and even Pursuit to try and trap -2 Lati@s or something.
Starmie: Starmie is kinda like Donphan in the sense that there are always better options for the job. Excadrill, Mega Blastoise and Lati@s if you want an offensive hazard remover, Greninja if special attacker, and Tentacruel if defensive rapid spinner. By this logic we should rank shit such as Donhpan, Uxie and Dusknoir cause they are pretty versatile, but at the end of the day have no reason to be used in OU. Starmie combines all these roles and is pretty good at them, but in no fucking way should it rise.
Weavile:

Weavile is good, but B is probably the ideal ranking. Strong Attack, but low BP Moves barring Knock Off and Icicle Crash are somewhat problematic. However, it's Stabs themselves are absolutely amazing, and carrying a priority that shits on the most top tier threats is no joke. In fact, being able to beat even Scarf-Landorus-T (which unless you're running something like Rocky helmet ferro, it doesn't get worn down enough to take out with other pokemon half the time) is honestly something really good that partners with most megas, and being able to clear the area for a sweep or wallbreaking is pretty amazing. Being able to function as an emergency check to stuff like Mega Pinsir and RP Landorus-I (super underrated right now, a devastating cleaner) is also very useful. A is a bit much, B is fine.

Oh, Also, it's frail as fuck. Like, even if I knew my opponent was going to Psyshock with a Latios, I still wouldn't switch this thing in.

 

[Flamer]

Fine, if you insist I talk about the Stallbreaker set, it's outclassed by other taunt users who will last longer overall. Azlef, Mew, even Thundurus (lmao) does the job better. I think Tflame was just meant for pure power sets and not stupid Stallbreaker sets that things like mew does better.
Also:
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Rhyperior: 309-363 (72.8 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lmao Rhypherior does not counter.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 153-180 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO
Can easily setup TWave and now Flame is useless.

You just dont seem to get it

I hope you realise I was referring to the fact that any set with wisp (all of them have wisp slashed, even band) at minimum cripples all of the mons you listed, not that it punches holes through them (which it can at +2). After a few rounds of burn and switches into brave bird, Rhyperior is at a very low amount of hp, allowing any other mon to run through it, not to mention is has no recovery to speak of. How the hell can you compare mew and talonflame, talonflame actually provides some offensive pressure and checks all three of the wallbreaker megas. And no, even without stallbreaker, Talonflame is way to good to be A.

Please make realistic nominations next time or if you dont have anything worth nominating or dont have enough of an argument, dont bother. I get that you want to participate but please learn to make educated posts and if you dont have any knowledge on the mon being discussed, dont talk about it, for example your useless post about Houndoom, who you clearly know nothing about. It will help you not only now but in the long run, trust me, all youre doing by posting right now is hurting yourself in the long run.

 

[Valmanway]

I'm gonna nominate regular Alakazam to C+. He's a pretty decent revenge killer with Focus Sash + Magic Guard, has a great base 135 Special Attack to smash frailer foes with, and an excellent base 120 Speed to outrun the likes of Keldeo, Latios, and Starmie. He's also one of the few offensive Pokemon that can check Sand Rush Excadrill (aside from Iron Flinch ad Focus Miss <_<), and can be an emergency, one-time counter to Landorus if he has HP Ice, otherwise, he simply checks Landorus. I made this nomination earlier, but I guess the other nominations swept this one under the carpet.

 

[WideTomato]

Alright, since everyone else is trying to spark healthy discussion, I might as well try too ^^

I nominate mega gyarados for A rank

(A+) --> A

Don't get me wrong, it's a fine pokemon but it just seem to have a hard time in the current mete, where some of the most popular pokemon just hard walls it, well or just checks it, those include azumarill, ferrothorn, keldeo, prankster Thundurus and scarfed lando-T among other. It does have good bulk, but it's weak to stealth rock, and like tyranitar which is also A, it have to get a dd boost before it can sweep, or even wallbreak. It's relatively slow, making pretty easy to revenge kill with a scarfed mon, it also have to be at very good health to take a banded brave bird from talonflame, one of the most common r-killers.

It only really have one viable set, which is the 3 attacks + dd set (or 2 attacks, dd sub) and while taunt seems nice for a stallbreaker, it's lack of recovery, and compared to the other wall breaking megas power, it is just a very mediocre choice. Some people run the resttalk set, but 2 moves is just not enough to make gyarados a treat, and while mono water is not bad, it's just not good enough to actually give you a reliable sweep.

I when you compare it to the other A+ rank megas, it seems a bit lackluster, and most of the time you will be better of with another mega.

Obviously you can built a good team around it, but so you can with most other mons, and A is not a bad rank tbh.

Gyarados also seem to need a bit more support than the other A+ megas, as it, like I said before, have a good amount of common counters, and even if you pare it with teammates that beat those, you still have to lure them out before you can do anything with gyara, and with no reliable recovery and a stealth rock weakness it's pretty hard to preserve, giving you a 5-6 matchup right from the start, at least if you count on gyara as your win condition.

Blissey & Stoutland: Blacklist and Derank

You really seem cocky, "just let them be where I desire and lets also blacklist it so people won't discuss it anymore" if anything, they should stay where they are now and get blacklisted and conclusion reached respectively.

 

[Numera]

Victini: Keep B+
Jirachi: Keep B+
Magnezone: Keep B+
Staraptor: B- -----> B
Starmie: Keep B+ (this, if you ask me, should drop into B-/C+, because it's too outclassed)
Weavile: B- ------> B


Victini: Victini is kinda predictable, weak to Pursuit and SR, and has no reliably recovery move, making it less effective as a stallbreaker than Mew in my opinion. Also, is Victini really as effective as Mega Aero in this meta?
I have no opinion on Victini, as I've never used it, but some things could cause it to rise. A)that bloody defensive typing. It can stallbreak AND it has these resists (Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Steel) that something like Mew could only dream of. Resisting Fairy, Fighting, Steel, Psychic and Fire in a metagame like this is pretty bloody huge don't you think? 2) It fits on stall because it can counter 2 of the Mega Wallbreakers with ease and check the other one. And seeing as stall needs a stallbreaker to be effective nowadays, I can see it having a very good reason to be used, even over Mew.
Jirachi: Due to the prevalence of Knock Off, Azumarill and Zard X, this guy has no easy task doing its job in OU. Sure, it's a great Mega Gardy check, but I don't think it should rise into A-.
Jirachi, again, I have never used, but there's so much to say. 1) OML THOSE RESISTS. Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Grass, Ice, Normal, Psychic, Rock, Steel. It resists so bloody much that's so bloody good in the metagame rn and that's one of the reasons it fits so well on stall. 2) It's just a far better doublade, beating most of the Mega Wallbreakers and providing wish support, something nothing else can do. I don't know if it deserves to move up, but take what I've said into account.
Magnezone: It fits well on dragmag, birdspam and most offensive teams and hits hard as hell, but it has one sole job: removing steel-types. Until you realize Mega Scizor can get past it with Superpower and Shed Sheel Skarm/Ferro are becoming more and more common.
Removing steel types isn't this thing's only job, LOL. It's hard af to switch into (at least the specs set can be) and does pull it's weight even outside of killing steels, seeing as it's a good check to all the good bulky waters bar Quag and has a nice choice scarfed set (who may only 2HKO Ferro and Scizor but regardless it still wears them down enough to be easily revenged if 1 of them carries a way to beat this thing) that checks birdspam excellently. It has had a massive impact on the meta (it's why Skarm runs Shed Shell) and partners excellently with threats like Lando-T and MPinsir.
Staraptor: This guy needs to rise. It's a great partner to Talonflame in birdspam teams and has almost no true counters due to Brave Bird's sheer power. It's not as weak to SR as Talonflame, gets Close Combat and even Pursuit to try and trap -2 Lati@s or something.
I'm not going to argue here, as it does in my opinion need to rise.
Starmie: Starmie is kinda like Donphan in the sense that there are always better options for the job. Excadrill, Mega Blastoise and Lati@s if you want an offensive hazard remover, Greninja if special attacker, and Tentacruel if defensive rapid spinner. By this logic we should rank shit such as Donhpan, Uxie and Dusknoir cause they are pretty versatile, but at the end of the day have no reason to be used in OU. Starmie combines all these roles and is pretty good at them, but in no fucking way should it rise.
Ok, WHAT WAS THAT. Starmie OUTCLASSED BY ALL OF THOSE?! Ok, let me explain why this is just bullshit

Excadrill: Starmie is the best dedicated spinner in the game, while Excadrill is the most viable Pokemon with access to the move. Starmie checks far more hazard setters, has far better abilities as a spinner and has that top notch defensive set. While Excadrill pulls his weight overall far more, it's still not as good as a dedicated spinner as Starmie.

Mega Blastiose: Mega Blastiose would outclass Starmie, if it weren't for it's opportunity cost. This thing is a dedicated spinner that IS A BLOODY MEGA POKEMON. As a result, due to all of the other Mega Pokemon that are far more viable as they do far more than just spin all day, it's often hard to fit this thing on a team. By using it on a team, you are stopping yourself using a plethora of fantastic Mega Pokemon that you could still use by just using Starmie. Starmie, on the contrary, is easy to fit on offensive teams (at least I think so). Seeing as how important hazards are in the metagame: If you are using an offensive team with hazards, you don't run TTar and you have at least 1 or 2 Pokemon weak to SR (not uncommon) you'll be running Starmie a lot of the time because of how good of a dedicated spinner it actually is.

Lati@s: They defog, Starmie spins. One of them is redundant on teams with hazards, the other one isn't. Starmie has it's pros over them anyway, like Reflect Type (I guess Latias gets it as well but w/e) and Natural Cure. It's kind of unfair to use this as a reason to lower Starmie.

Greninja: Yeah, Greninja is so much better than Starmie at just being a revenge killer/special sweeper, but it can't spin.

Tentacruel: How is this a better defensive spinner than Starmie? Tentacruel lacks Natural Cure, reliable recovery, both of them are bulky waters using the defensive set so they are easily compared and Starmie has Reflect Type which allows it to work around far more. Tentacruel has less of an offensive presence. It might have a better defensive typing and more bulk, but if you ask me, Starmie > Tentacruel.

Starmie combines roles and is DAMN good at them, and it's no where near as awful as Uxie and Dusknoir.


I HAVE NO OPINION ON WEAVILE.

There's seems to be a lot you don't understand. I'm going to do a "replies in bold" thing.

 

[JGSabino]

I agree with moving Landorus-T to S-rank. My teams don't feel complete without slapping a Landorus-T somewhere in them tbh. Even more than Azumarill, but maybe I just like to live dangerously vs Keldeo and Greninja.

Back to L-T, Intimidate with those stats is a godsend to check most physical attackers in the tier, and the multiple moveset options it can run make it really easy to fit in a team. Shuts down Sand offense, can either provide slow U-turns, SR and even Toxic with a defensive set or be a strong revenge killer that can still take a hit if needed with a Scarf set. Also has Knock Off. I'd say it is by far the best offensive pivot in the tier, which makes it "standard" in every playstyle. Won't talk about the Double Dance set and Block shenanigans as I haven't used them recently, but I'm sure other players can agree with me that they're viable and give Landorus-T increased versatility.

Going back to previous arguments; yes, it doesn't have reliable recovery, but that's what makes it tolerable and healthy in OU. It can't beat 1v1 our based lord Azumarill either, but it has decent synergy with common, great OU mons that can check it (mainly Ferrothorn). Gyarados is probably the only physical attacker that can switch in and force it out, but even then Scarf Landorus-T can revenge kill it (or check it, in a loose definition) after a DD with Stone Edge/Superpower. Scarf Landorus-T also works as a good late game cleaner if needed. Although getting locked in EQ is not the best idea with so many immunities around, Intimidate naturally forces switches that you can capitalize on with SR and U-turn, easily weaknening them before actually trying to clean. Except Gliscor. F*ck Gliscor.

 

[Flamer]

Megados is one mon that definately does not deserve to drop. It is so consistent in its ability to sweep multiple team styles almost effeortlessly. I run DD+taunt (used it during BP and kept it because it deals with so many "counters") and have never missed the extra coverage of Ice fang and have never had trouble sweeping. I feel people miss the major draw to using Gyara in that you have two completely different types and can change them whenever, back in the deo era, you could cause the most annoying 50/50s against Deo-s, the end all of revenging at the time, that you were practically guaranteed to win 1v1 against it (Psycho could nearly ko but the type change meant you had to predict and it was guaranteed another setup at full health, sweeping the team from there). It has so few flaws and they are the ones that all sweepers in general share, namely, thund and Ferro needs to be dead and a bit of prior damage on mons that can take the hit and ko back, ie Keldeo and Azumarill, that is literally all it needs. No way is this guy moving down.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Staraptor (B) -> B+ | Okay, why hasn't this happened yet? Staraptor is literally THE #1 wallbreaker on Flying Spam teams and an essential member needed in the playstyle for breaking down the toughest walls without the need to set up. Its Choice Band sets nearly rival Black Kyurem in power when using Reckless Brave Bird or Double-Edge, while its coverage option in Close Combat is literally all it needs to be a fearsome wallbreaker. Its fantastic wallbreaking prowess makes it one of the best teammates for every sweeper/revenge killer on these kinds of teams; even in general, this bird is one of the better physical wallbreakers in the tier. It's plagued by its weakness to SR and its extreme frailty, but once Staraptor gets in there, you better have something that can take a Brave Bird or Double-Edge boosted by Reckless and coming off of 120 Attack. Staraptor should move to B+.

Landorus-T (A+) -> S | I believe the Earth tiger has what it takes to be S-Rank. Landorus-T can just do so fucking much in the current metagame, can be paired with and support a ton of Pokémon in the tier, is ridiculously easy to slap onto teams and always pulls its weight. The Scarf set provides Intimidate utility and the ability to scout (works great in tandem with Mega Manectric) as well as the ability to hit really hard with its base 145 Attack, the pivot set can reliably get SR up and is capable of scouting with U-turn and crippling things with Knock Off and the Swords Dance is a fucking monster that can be dangerous to just about any kind of team; Stall teams are annihilated after Swords Dance, while offensive teams will have to face a fast-as-balls tiger. It forces a shitton of switches with Intimidate and its amazing Attack stat in tandem with its deadly Ground-type STAB. Its typing is amazing, both offensively and defensively, as it allows Landorus-T to switch in on pretty much any physical attacker and do a shitload of damage in return.
It may have no recovery, which means it's worn down easily, and faces competition from its Incarnate Forme, but hey, not even S-Rank Pokémon are perfect. That's an important detail many overlook; S-Rank Pokémon are freaking excellent, but far from flawless. Landorus-I and Landorus-T perform vastly differently, but I definitely believe they're on the same level at what they specifically do. Landorus-T deserves to rise to S.

 

[Alfalfa]

Victini: Keep B+
Jirachi: Keep B+
Magnezone: Keep B+
Staraptor: B- -----> B
Starmie: Keep B+ (this, if you ask me, should drop into B-/C+, because it's too outclassed)
Weavile: B- ------> B


Victini: Victini is kinda predictable, weak to Pursuit and SR, and has no reliably recovery move, making it less effective as a stallbreaker than Mew in my opinion. Also, is Victini really as effective as Mega Aero in this meta?
Jirachi: Due to the prevalence of Knock Off, Azumarill and Zard X, this guy has no easy task doing its job in OU. Sure, it's a great Mega Gardy check, but I don't think it should rise into A-.
Magnezone: It fits well on dragmag, birdspam and most offensive teams and hits hard as hell, but it has one sole job: removing steel-types. Until you realize Mega Scizor can get past it with Superpower and Shed Sheel Skarm/Ferro are becoming more and more common.
Staraptor: This guy needs to rise. It's a great partner to Talonflame in birdspam teams and has almost no true counters due to Brave Bird's sheer power. It's not as weak to SR as Talonflame, gets Close Combat and even Pursuit to try and trap -2 Lati@s or something.
Starmie: Starmie is kinda like Donphan in the sense that there are always better options for the job. Excadrill, Mega Blastoise and Lati@s if you want an offensive hazard remover, Greninja if special attacker, and Tentacruel if defensive rapid spinner. By this logic we should rank shit such as Donhpan, Uxie and Dusknoir cause they are pretty versatile, but at the end of the day have no reason to be used in OU. Starmie combines all these roles and is pretty good at them, but in no fucking way should it rise.
Weavile:

Starmie is not outclassed. It is actually a really good offensive spinner now that Aegislash is gone, and its Defensive (Reflect Type) set is really good on stall; with Reflect Type, it can wall a lot of defensive Pokemon, most notably Ferrothorn. I do not see how Starmie is outclassed.

 

[zbr]

Alright so a lot of people have been discussing about Lando-T moving to S rank and that reminds me of the LC's discussion of Chinchou to S. Anyway, here is my take on this discussion.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

I feel that Lando T should move up to S. Hear me out.

This mon is a sheer monster to face and the flexibility it has is purely insane. It can opt to run Scarf, Lefties and even act as a late game sweeper with Double dance sets. This is coupled with the fact that his ability makes him a great physical mon check, his typing being one that possess both offensive and defensive synergies (taking neutral from SR is HUGE and Ground STAB is nothing to scoff at because it allows him to hit 5/18 types for SE and 10/18 types for neutral) and he forms an amazing duo with any form of Volt Switcher due to the fact that he has U-Turn. (Be it Rotom-W or even Mega Manectric, the synergy they possess is amazing). Not only that, it has great utility in the form of Knock Off, Stealth Rocks and has the ability to turn would be checks into waste by running different sets (Superpower with a scarf allows him to beat Greninja and surprise kill Balloon Tran/Drill). To top it off, he has the big offensive base stat to push it up to a notch as this allows him to be a physical tank while preventing from being too passive, and also allowing him to be an amazing clean up late game. To be very honest, it is the number 1 most used pokemon for a reason. (I understand Viability =/= Usage but hear me out) It has the ability to fit into many teams well, allowing them to maintain momentum with any form of set they run and also allowing them to be more creative while not having to fear that their innovation will not work out well (I remember Dekzeh running a Power Herb Fly Lando-T against CTC in a Frontier game and it damaged his MVenu quite a bit on the first turn) because the mon itself is a very well designed mon. You can even opt to go for the Gravity set, or even a SubSD/Sub+Pinch Berry set. The options are there for you to explore and this mon can easily fit onto any teams.

Although, it does indeed face severe competition against Lando-I for a slot, both of them run in the complete opposite directions and it is easy to justify the use of Lando-T on any team. It's base 91 Speed may seem to be a hindrance but with it's large bulk coupled with it's good ability, it is completely overshadowed.

Overall, I don't think there is a reason for us to deny Lando-T's rise to S and he deserves it as much as his Incarnate brother.

 

[escarlata]

Seconding Landorus-T to S. It is easily one of the most splashable 'mons in the tier. There is almost no opportunity cost involved in running Lando-T other than not being able to run Lando-I, which honestly is not that huge an opp cost. Its Scarf set and PDef set are extremely effective, and, it will almost always get something done against any team it faces. Other than aforesaid 2 sets, Lando-T is extremely versatile, being able to screw around with a lot of its checks by running Explosion, Toxic, Superpower, SD, HP Ice, or even Choice Band. What really makes Lando-T amazing is that just by identifying the set does not automatically reveal the sets it carry, since only EQ and U-turn are standard on all. You will never know when your next switch in might get screwed hard by its coverage options.

 

[AM]

Lando-T for S seems about right. Also there really is no opportunity cost or competition for using Lando-T over Lando-I. If anything, Lando-T is better than Lando-I in the current meta. Common playstyles that thrive in the meta are all hindered in some way or form by Lando-T, whether that be through revenge killing with scarf, Rock setting, versatility, surprise factor, intimidate, etc. Lack of recovery on Lando-T isn't a huge issue either when it finds itself on teams that provide extreme offense pressure to finish matches quickly, or is paired up with cleric support of sorts. It caters its moveset to not only itself easily, but also the team and in some ways the metas current progression. Lando-T for S.

Victini: Keep B+
Jirachi: Keep B+
Magnezone: Keep B+
Staraptor: B- -----> B
Starmie: Keep B+ (this, if you ask me, should drop into B-/C+, because it's too outclassed)
Weavile: B- ------> B


Victini: Victini is kinda predictable, weak to Pursuit and SR, and has no reliably recovery move, making it less effective as a stallbreaker than Mew in my opinion. Also, is Victini really as effective as Mega Aero in this meta?
Jirachi: Due to the prevalence of Knock Off, Azumarill and Zard X, this guy has no easy task doing its job in OU. Sure, it's a great Mega Gardy check, but I don't think it should rise into A-.
Magnezone: It fits well on dragmag, birdspam and most offensive teams and hits hard as hell, but it has one sole job: removing steel-types. Until you realize Mega Scizor can get past it with Superpower and Shed Sheel Skarm/Ferro are becoming more and more common.
Staraptor: This guy needs to rise. It's a great partner to Talonflame in birdspam teams and has almost no true counters due to Brave Bird's sheer power. It's not as weak to SR as Talonflame, gets Close Combat and even Pursuit to try and trap -2 Lati@s or something.
Starmie: Starmie is kinda like Donphan in the sense that there are always better options for the job. Excadrill, Mega Blastoise and Lati@s if you want an offensive hazard remover, Greninja if special attacker, and Tentacruel if defensive rapid spinner. By this logic we should rank shit such as Donhpan, Uxie and Dusknoir cause they are pretty versatile, but at the end of the day have no reason to be used in OU. Starmie combines all these roles and is pretty good at them, but in no fucking way should it rise.
Weavile:

TerrorDave mentioned some stuff in bold but some of the things I have actually used and I can safely disagree with a portion of what you suggested. Jirachi is the only one I'm on the fence about cause it's a great mon but day to day I see it getting plowed through a lot of stuff like Sand Offense and some of the harder heavy hitters such as Life Orb Gengar, and Lando-T. Magnezone fits an archetype that is pretty much one of the most common now a days, which is the Fairy, Steel, Dragon, Water cores and as such is one of the pinnacle mons that occupies the Steel slot. Removing steel types is not its only job. Trapping steel types is one of its jobs to gain momentum for the user, there isn't some sort of law that you have to ko the steel type you just need to use it to your advantage. Also Magnezone has a solid defensive typing to come in on resisted hits. Wallbreaks with Specs, checks a bunch of stuff with Scarf and is pretty easy to pull off. Staraptor is actually in B lol, but yeah I believe it should rise anyways. Starmie is outclassed in what exactly ._. ? It's one of the premiere offensive spinners that doesn't rely on sand to do its job consistently and has options to run more defensive sets with recovery that M-Blastoise wish it could pull off. Running Defog provides an opportunity cost of removing your own hazards which is a hindrance for some teams that rely on them, that's my general take between Latias vs Starmie. I don't really care if it rises or not but that wasn't a good argument for it to stay so might as well point that out now. Victini is definitely versatile and its stallbreaking aspects are much different to Mew in the fact that it's not getting completely steamrolled by M-Gardevoir. Its versatility is being seen more and more and as such A- is a respectable rank for it. Weavile I have no opinion on truly but I think it should stay because what it does has been overrated by some supporters.

 

[asterat]

Landorus-I S --> A+
Landorus-T A+ --> S

Ok, so I know this will probably become pretty controversial, but I think these mons should switch places. I am aware Landorus-I is blacklisted, but I still think this needs to be said and that his blacklisting isn't really necessary anymore. Landorus-T on the other hand is one of the best mons around, and definitely deserves S. A combination of excellent bulk, movepool, and typing is just so effective, and he is sort of a staple on bulky offense nowadays, in either his scarf or stealth rock set, both of which are great at gaining momentum. I'm going to address these mons separately, because I'm not really trying to imply a swap here, the shift in viabilities are independent of eachother.

Yeah, Landorus really is quite the mon. He has insane power due to sheer force and stellar offensive stats. However, if you look a bit deeper, I think it's not that hard to see his flaws. First I'd like to stress just how limited his moveslots are: without Earth Power, Focus Blast, Hidden Power Ice, and Knock Off he really isn't going to do that much to stall. CM and psychic is nice to have, but without HP ice you are stomped by SpD Gliscor and Dragonite. Knock Off is less important but it breaks stall really well and is always an amazing support move. More than anything, it hits Latios switch ins much harder than anything else. Lets establish that this is pretty much the "best" Landorus-I set and the one most good players are running. CM over Knock Off is also pretty common, but moves like psychic and sludge wave are pretty much non existent right now. For certain teams, stealth rock is also a good move if a bulky stealth rock supporter (Tyranitar, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Clefable, etc. ) is not present. I will agree that Landorus breaks stall pretty well. He is a bit reliant on hitting focus blast though, and most stall teams will land a toxic or something on him, making his lifespan limited. Before he goes down a lot of damage will be done no doubt, but he won't bring a stall team to its knees by himself. Select stall teams with stuff like unaware Clef won't have a huge issue, and stuff like Suicune can come in and spam scald. He sets up good conditions for the rest of the team, but can not do everything himself. On the flip side of the coin is offense... where Landorus has become pretty ineffective. Landorus isn't actually very fast right now, and is pretty easily outsped and killed by the ubiquitous Latios and Keldeo and OHKOed. While he can 2HKO pretty much everything, earth power isn't strong enough to OHKO lots of mons on offensive teams, and they can tank one and revenge OHKO him. Landorus offers pretty much no defensive synergy, he mostly comes in on defensive stuff and spams his moves. In order to be truly effective against offense the predictions have to be stellar, but even then every time he kills something it's an invitation for a fast powerhouse to get a free switch in. With a metagame infested by Keldeo, Latios, Pinsir, Scarf Landorus-T, Knock Off (which significantly cuts damage output), Gardevoir, Charizard, Hidden Power Ice and Scald... I just really feel this mon is not deserving of S rank. I don't know how well I communicated it, but hopefully someone who is more articulate than me can pick this up and help me push this point.

Landorus-T is actually amazing right now. Volt Turn cores are empowered by this guy and an electric of choice (Rotom/Raikou/Ampharos/etc.) He's one of the best stops around to lost of physical attackers, and pretty much the only good Terrakion switch in besides Slowbro. Outside of Stealth Rock, Earthquake, and U-Turn he has a pretty expansive physical movepool, and the attack stat to use it. With intimidate, this guy's physical defense is actually ~136 base, making him bulkier than Skarmory. Unlike Skarm, he is really potent offensively and has U-Turn for awesome pivoting. I've found that Landorus-T is the leader of so many good cores, he has amazing synergy with so many mons. As long as you keep him away from water types you're pretty much golden. So many mons resist water that finding a partner is really easy. The threat of this mon's earthquake leads him to force switches pretty easily against anything weak to ground, meaning it is very easy to set up stealth Rock or gain momentum with U-Turn. For example, he can come in on Excadrill and U-Turn out to Gardevoir on the Rotom-W switch in. I feel I'm being pretty repetitive here, but this thing pairs well with pretty much everything and sets rocks very easily, and gains loads of momentum. The last thing is his double dance set which is a really good win condition for bulkier teams that can use his bulk for the whole game before setting up and sweeping. With his massive attack stone edge can easily pick off weakened stuff like Skarmory and Rotom-W.

 

[Celticpride]

Mega Gyara has a very easy time getting up a Dragon Dance, maybe the easiest out of the three DDers. The ability to change your typing at any turn is very good, considering Water/Flying and Water/Dark only share one weakness, and that weakness goes from a 4x effectiveness to a 2x effectiveness. It's got the bulk to survive virtually all non-SE hits and a decent amount of 2x SE ones. Add that onto the fact that Gyara has the stats to be OU unevolved and you have a lot of ease in the time you can pick to evolve. You can reasonably afford to stay unevolved against Grass, Fighting and Ground type attackers and evolve when you feel a Rock or Dark attack coming. Also, Taunt, DD and two attacks is a pretty effective set, in addition to straight DD and Substitute sets.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

i think lando-i is conclusion reached because yknow we know everything about it and its better than the rest of a+

 

[Puralux]

I agree on moving Landorus-T to S.
He has a really nice physical Bulk thanks to Intimidate and can be considered the best Intimidate user in the OU metagame. His movepool , Ability and physical bulkyness characteristics makes him useful in a lot of teams , he is also a really great fast and bulky revenge killer thanks to Choice Scarf. With this characteristics i really think that Landorus-T absolutely deserves the S rank.

 

[Monte Cristo]

i think lando-i is conclusion reached because yknow we know everything about it and its better than the rest of a+

I'm sorry, but this, in my opinion, is invalid reasoning for making it conclusion reached. I think if a pokemon is better than the rest of A+ it doesn't mean it should be S (I'm lookin at you, Azumarill) it has to meet the requirements of S rank, not simply overachieve at A+.

 

[Firebird101]

I'm sorry, but this, in my opinion, is invalid reasoning for making it conclusion reached. I think if a pokemon is better than the rest of A+ it doesn't mean it should be S (I'm lookin at you, Azumarill) it has to meet the requirements of S rank, not simply overachieve at A+.

Nevertheless Lando-I has been discussed to death and can adapt himself to the meta. Of course he can't have every move he wants at the same time but whether it is against stall, bulky offense or hyper offense he has sets to battle them. So unless the meta changes drastically I don't see the point of moving Lando-I down.

Lando-T I have to admit probably deserves to be S rank, maybe it's being overhyped on this thread but it is such an excellent pokemon it is pretty hard to pinpoint actual flaws with it.

 

[Magcargo]

Latios==>S-Rank
If Landorus-T is being considered to be moved up to S-Rank, Latios should be as well. Its pretty much one of the easiest mons to fit onto a team thanks to its amazing typing, allowing it to check key threats such as Keldeo, Rotom-W, Venusaur, non-Knock Off Landorus-I and thundurus. Its access to Defog is another key point in its favor, as it allows Latios to remove entry hazards from the field, aiding certain SR weak Pokemon such as Charizard, Pinsir, and Thundurus. Latios also has amazing coverage, with moves such as Surf, HP Fire, Thunderbolt, HP Fighting and EQ to hit several of its checks and counters.

A large reason why Latios wasn't considered for S-Rank last time was due to it not having a spammable move, as Draco meteor forces it out after its use and psyshock doesn't have amazing coverage. However, Latios does have a pretty spammable move in the form of Dragon Pulse, which has become more popular recently. Dragon Pulse achieves most of the KOes that Draco Meteor does after SR, but doesn't force Latios out after its use and makes Latios less prediction reliant. Latios's only real flaws are its Pursuit weakness and 4MSS. Overall, I believe that Latios is deserving of S-Rank in the current metagame.

Latias could move up to S-rank as well, but I find it to be a lot worse than Latios because its weaker, has a greater amount of 4MSS, and more trouble with pursuit users. It does provide more support with healing wish and can check threats such as Keldeo and Charizard Y better due to its superior bulk.

 

[Albacore]

I think I've already underlined this a while ago when discussing Landorus-T, but I think one of the reasons we kept arguing about the 3 lesser S ranks dropping or not is that there's a disconnect between people who judge viability by how hard it is to deal with a Pokemon, and those who judge viability by how easy it is to justify using a Pokemon on a team. Now, I'm more one of the latter, which is why I believe Azumarill and not Thundurus to be the best Pokemon in OU. In fact, the comparison between Azumarill and Thundurus is pretty interesting, because Thundurus is clearly much more threatening to the opponent since it has no completely surefire counters, but Azumarill is far, far easier to slap on a team due to the combination of the defensive synergy and offensive presence, and arguably a lot easier to use too. Another example is Keldeo, who isn't exactly difficult to deal with (most teams have one or two loose counters to this thing), but who is very easy to put on teams and use. Landorus-I, on the contrary, is very threatening and tricky to switch into, but doesn't find itself on that many teams, since there are other wallbreakers and using Landorus-I comes with the opportunity cost of not using Landorus-T.

Basically, what I'm trying to say here is that we need to clear out once and for all how we measure viability. Do we measure it more from the point of view of the user or the opponent? If a Pokemon is very offensively threatening and has no true safe counters but it tricky to actually fit on a team, should it be seen as more viable as one who is very, very easy to slap on teams, but has a number of solid counters and checks? (again, this ties in to the Lando T vs I discussion) Should we value one of these more than the others, or try to strike a balance between both? I think discussing this would make it a lot easier to determine viability, since we'll have a much more concrete baseline to work from. In any case, I'd like to hear more discussion about this.

On another note, I personally find Latias to be a better pick than Latios on most teams. Not only is Healing Wish in incredible form of support (especially if you run a mega wallbreaker since that lets you stomach burns and toxic and then get healed back to full, which is really helpful when facing Stall), but the extra bulk really matters a lot in some cases, particularly vs Knock Off Lando-I and YZard. In all honestly, the only times I use Latios over Latias is when I want to lure Heatran with EQ, though that may be just me. I just never find the extra power to matter all that much. But yeah, Latos and Latias are both meta-defining forces, present on almost every offensive teams and even some more balanced and defensive ones, and if Lando-T deserves S than on the same basis so do the Lati twins IMO.

 

[Alfalfa]

Latios==>S-Rank
If Landorus-T is being considered to be moved up to S-Rank, Latios should be as well. Its pretty much one of the easiest mons to fit onto a team thanks to its amazing typing, allowing it to check key threats such as Keldeo, Rotom-W, Venusaur, non-Knock Off Landorus-I and thundurus. Its access to Defog is another key point in its favor, as it allows Latios to remove entry hazards from the field, aiding certain SR weak Pokemon such as Charizard, Pinsir, and Thundurus. Latios also has amazing coverage, with moves such as Surf, HP Fire, Thunderbolt, HP Fighting and EQ to hit several of its checks and counters.

A large reason why Latios wasn't considered for S-Rank last time was due to it not having a spammable move, as Draco meteor forces it out after its use and psyshock doesn't have amazing coverage. However, Latios does have a pretty spammable move in the form of Dragon Pulse, which has become more popular recently. Dragon Pulse achieves most of the KOes that Draco Meteor does after SR, but doesn't force Latios out after its use and makes Latios less prediction reliant. Latios's only real flaws are its Pursuit weakness and 4MSS. Overall, I believe that Latios is deserving of S-Rank in the current metagame.

Latias could move up to S-rank as well, but I find it to be a lot worse than Latios because its weaker, has a greater amount of 4MSS, and more trouble with pursuit users. It does provide more support with healing wish and can check threats such as Keldeo and Charizard Y better due to its superior bulk.

I have problems with Latios going to S Rank though. Latios' case of 4MSS is too much for it to be able to go to S Rank. If it runs Surf, it loses to Azumarill and Ferrothorn. If it runs HP Fire it loses to Heatran and Azumarill. If it runs Thunderbolt, it loses to Heatran and Ferrothorn. That is usually my biggest problem with Latios. Plus, if you run Defog > Recover / Roost, Latios gets worn down so fast it is not funny. Those factors do not make Latios better than A+ Rank Pokemon, such as Talonflame, Clefable, and Excadrill. Keep Latios at A+.

 

[kabbes]

Talon has the perfect combination of attributes for causing hell as a stall breaking, status spreading, setting up pain in the arse. Priority roost makes it very, very hard to kill, becaus not only dos it recover HP, it also eliminates weaknesses. A fast WoW spreads burns before physical attackers can respond in many cases. And then it has a priority 120bp STAB to finish the job. The fact it can choose between taunt, BU or SD in the final slot is the cherry on the cake. The opponent has to guess whether you are going to recover, set up or hit hard.

Literally the only reason Talon drops out of my team is if I am running one of the Chars and I don't want to double up on the fire weaknesses. Otherwise, it's a banker.