Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[zbr]

I want to talk a bit about Gastrodon

<- Y U NO LIEK ME GAMEFREAK Y U NERF RAIN11!!1. jk, we all know y rain shld b nerf
Gastrodon, despite it's less than stellar artwork, is a p decent mon to run in this meta. But how effective is it and does it deserve the rise? In my opinion, no it does not. Here are some points to consider when we are discussing about this cute sea slug.

1. How effective is it outside of rain
2. Against fellow C+ Rankers how it is deserving of it's spot.
4. How does it help with our current game state
5. I missed point 3? GDI!

Point 1. It is able to take on rain no doubt. But is it viable outside of rain? My say on that is actually, no. It is definitely great in taking on Rain and it is definitely capable of absorbing electric type attacks like Volt Switch, but that isn't good enough. In our current meta where the double bunny along with a slew of more physically oriented teams, it is unable to hold it's weight outside of taking on Rain team. Also, rain teams often carry mons that hit hard on the physical side that isn't reliant on rain, such as Mega Heracross and this somewhat hinders it's effectiveness as a rain switch in.

Point 2. Honestly, I cannot think of any other reason, outside of attempting to wall rain, why I would use Gastro over Goodra, Klefki or even Ditto. If I really fear rain, I can easily run Sp Def Rest Goodra with Hydration. I can also run Ditto to copy his weather abusers and use it against (to a lesser extent of course but it still works). I can run dual status Klefki and spread status around his team. Even then, all these mons still have viable niches outside of countering rain and that in itself makes it a lot more viable than Gastro.

Point 4. It can't really help much with the current game state except providing set up opportunities for opponents because of how insanely fast paced this meta is. This is just reminiscent of the E-Dragon era (to those who play YGO) in which the game states are fast paced and offensive in nature. Having gastro on your team feels like as if it detracts from your team's momentum and may end up just being deadweight. Even Goodra/Klefki (Shaky but still good against rain) or Tangrowth (Pair it with slowsis for rain checking) is a better alternative to running Gastro.

Tl;Dr - Gastro is fine where it is. With rain not being as insane as before, it is hardly as justifiable as before to run this on any team.

 

[WideTomato]

Again, SR on their side isn't guaranteed if the Zard Y user is using a Defogger for hazard removal, and Bulky DD Zard X isn't 2HKO'd by Fire Blast after SR damage as a Mega and is the Bulky or Will-O set. If you used anything other than Fire Blast as it switches in before MEvoing you've probably lost.

Doublade is the only thing that can really switch into any attack from Mega Heracross while several Mons have an easy time with Mega Zard Y. Mega Heracross isn't walled by the premier physical wall (only a niche one) while Zard Y is walled by the premier special one.

That's not necessarily true since they are both Wallbreakers in the same rank. Mega Heracross doesn't need as much support and is harder to switch into (which I've said like 5 times now), so Zard Y should not be the same rank as it.

Alright, bulky dd zard x walls it, but again it have coverage options to get past it, and yes, mega Hera Hera is a better wallbreaker that can get past the primary physical wall, but it's not generally harder to switch into, it's like you assuming Latis will be switching into pin missil every time, zard rock blast every time etc. But yeah, Hera is the better wallbreaker

Edit: then again, chansey have significantly higher special bulk than skarm have physical. And there's a chunk of physical sweepers that can get past skarm, only keldeo can get past chansey as a special sweeper.

I don't know if I agree with dropping...

It is perfectly valid to compare M-Heracross and Zard Y considering they both share the role of being wallbreaking megas, unlike Tyranitar and Thundurus, who literally share no traits in common.

As for Zard Y, I honestly feel that the only place it should move to is A-Rank considering that Landorus-I, a better wallbreaker currently resides in A+.

Is lando dropping even an argument for dropping zard? And yeah, you can compare them, my mistake

 

[SomeKidFromJohto]

With the rise of magnezone on many teams as a steel trapper, with many sets being viable, including scarfed, specs, and air balloon/magnet rise all as options, I think we've been somewhat neglecting another solid option: it's unevolved form, magneton. It's sitting pretty in C rank right now, but I think it's better than that, so I'm going to nominate magneton for C+ rank, or possibly even B-. Magneton actually has something that stands out over it's evolved form, which gives it's use some significant relevance: a higher speed stat. This makes it's scarfed set more effective than magnezone's in many cases. At timid/max speed, magneton's scarf set barely outspeeds timid greninja, something magneton is incapable of. Sure, Greninja isn't one of magnezone's biggest threats, but it can easily come in and force it out or pick it off after it has taken some damage dealing with one of it's classic targets like ferrothorn or skarmory. On the other hand though, magneton is able to stay in and assuming you are locked into thunderbolt, net the OHKO: 252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 368-434 (128.6 - 151.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Outside of that matchup, as greninja isn't the biggest threat to magnezone, is the 115 speed tier, which magnezone also barely fails to outspeed when scarfed, which includes some relevant threats: mega houndoom, mega absol, raikou, and starmie all occupy this tier, along with some others that are completely non-relevant so I won't mention (and I know that even mega absol is pushing it), and although wouldn't all threaten magnezone with a OHKO (except for mega houndoom), all of them could potentially switch in and pick off a weakened magnezone without taking any damage themselves, but would have to take a hit from magneton. Starmie specifically is a pokemon whose usage is on the rise and almost always runs timid/max speed, so outspeeding it is pretty relevant. Sure, magneton could only beat starmie and maybe mega absol with a OHKO, but it can still do some significant damage before falling, assuming you're locked into the right move:

252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Houndoom: 153-180 (52.5 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Absol: 235-277 (86.7 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 69-82 (20.9 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 320-378 (99 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

So of these threats, magneton is hitting most of them for solid damage with thunderbolt, doing the least to raikou. (And honestly, if raikou shows up, you should probably switch, as it's likely to calm mind in your face.) It can also possibly OHKO two of them, which is pretty significant. This is a small sampling of pokemon that magneton outspeeds that magnezone doesn't, but suffice to say that anything from base 115 up magnezone still doesn't outpeed when scarfed, while magneton can outspeed pokemon up to base 122 speed. So if there's a pokemon in that range you think you need to hit, then magneton is the better option.

Basically, magneton and magnezone have the same job of trapping steels; And while magnezone can do this in a variety of ways, if you were thinking of using a scarf, magneton is probably the better option, as that extra 10 speed more than makes up for 10 less special attack.

So to conclude, I think that magneton's scarfed set makes it valid over magneton in enough scenarios to validate moving up a rank or two.

 

[jbtc10]

i absolutely agree with the first two of jukain's three nominations, especially chansey down to b+. a few months ago chansey was pretty dominant, at around #5 in weighted usage i think? around the time when stall was really common and chansey was on every stall and it was annoying and stuff. i mean stall itself has taken a pretty big hit so by using chansey you're using a subpar playstyle imo, i know there are some good stalls at the moment but it's becoming increasingly harder for them to take on everything these days. there has been a massive physical shift in the metagame, massive. not only are two of last month's big 3 megas fighting-types that destroy it, the aegislash ban meant magnezone could trap all steels barring doublade, meaning physical spam teams are things because most steel-types aside from heatran and empoleon are physically defense, especially the obvious case, skarmory. it runs shed shell now but physical teams are still far more common, with things like thundurus and landorus being seen less and azumarill and diggersby and pinsir and scizor a lot more. even with stalls shift to having psychic-types, dark-types are becoming more common which are also physical and all carry knock off, crawdaunt, weavile etc, so chansey is at a major loss of momentum if any of the most prominent pokemon in the metagame double switch in to it. and ya gengar is more common too which beats chansey with sub. also yea i agree with mega gyarados moving down too which i've said before, scarf landorus-t and keldeo and all that stuff o.o. chansey i feel more adamant about though, and have for a while.

As a frequent user of stall myself, I always feel as though whenever the meta shifts towards being more physically based, it actually makes Chansey better, because Chansey walls such a huge portion of the special attackers out there that by throwing it on your team, it means you now have to use much fewer dedicated special walls to counter all the various special threats out there and you can instead focus those slots on countering the many diverse physical ones which are technically much harder to wall because there's no physical equivalent of Chansey herself. Chansey + 5 physical walls is actually a legit strategy which can shine pretty well in these sorts of metas, especially when you chose your physical walls wisely to cover any of the few special threats that Chansey can struggle against through typings, etc. The existence of things like Greninja, Mega Manectric and Charizard-Y which have such powerful and diverse coverage moves means that you actually often have to go out of your way to not include Chansey on your team.

Chansey is also amazing because it's one of (if not the only) Wish supporters who actually make really good niche defensive mons who lack reliable recovery (like M-Blastoise) a viable option for use on Stall and bulky offense teams. Surely having such monstrous defensive stats and a really nice movepool that has nearly every support move in the book (SR, Wish, Heal Bell, etc) is enough to retain A-. It's still one of the leading defensive mons in the game, and it can always do something useful with the free turns it gets. It's hard to fathom how a game like this: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-168027474 could be made easier without having the almighty Blob to laugh off at least half their team.

 

[Immortal]

I feel like I have mad this argument too many times now but once again, Charizard Y is amazing in the meta right now, the use of really passive mons like chansey which gave it trouble are way down and the only defensive mon that really gives it any trouble right now is heatran, which charizard's partner in crime, keldeo walks all over. It demolishes defensive mons like ferrothorn, Landorus T, Gliscor, slowbro, venusaur, you name it. It also beats a ton of top tier pokemon 1v1, has insane power from fire blast which is easy to spam. It has solid bulk, reliable recovery etc etc. Also people need to stop saying that the fact that it needs support is so limiting. Sure it needs a spinner/defogging which every team packs anyway and a pursuit trapper is nice but the best part is that it gets this support from great mons like keldeo, the lati twins, t tar, bisharp and excadrill (they are all A rank or above), all of whom are easy to fit on teams with zard Y and work great with it. It's not like using zard y forces you to use a bunch of niche garbage in order to support it. Anyway about the ranks, while it is amazing, its average speed, unimpressive physical bulk and SR weakness are enough to keep it from S rank but there is no way it should drop from A+. It is simply too good right now.

 

[Albacore]

Chansey dropping is pretty long overdue, I supported its drop alongside Skarmory's a while back, and I still feel like that was correct at the time, but Skarmory has undoubtedly gotten better since then, what with its ability to deal with physical spam teams with a Shed Shell equipped (that is until Knock off Pinsir takes off on those kind of teams). Chansey, on the other hand, has gotten worse if anything, for reasons that have already been explained. I just don't see it on stall anymore, or at least not nearly as prominently as Skarmory, Jirachi, Doublade, or Starmie. For that reason I feel like it could drop down to further to B though it's arguably better than a few things down there (looking at you, Quagsire). But I really don't think it's as good as anything an B+. In any case, it should definitely be dropped to B+ for the time being.

Speaking of Starmie, I'd like to go back on my nomination for it to move at A-. (please note that I will only be discussing the defensive set here) After further testing, turns it's not as reliable as I thought it was. The problem, oddly enough, isn't Gengar (who does get worn down by Scald and can be outlasted by Starmie without too much difficuly), it's Doublade. Doublade just completely stops Starmie from doing anything at all, even has Rest so it can't get worn down from repeated Scalds and guarantees rocks will stay up on your side of the team. This is especially troublesome given that Starmie is supposed to be used on stall, a playstyle which cannot apply enough offensive pressure on opposing stall teams to stop rocks from going up in the first place. And if we assume that Doublade is on every stall team (which is not necessarily an incorrect assumption) and that Starmie and Skarmory are the only relevant hazard removers for Stall (again, not far from the truth), a well-played Skarmory stall team will pretty much always win against an equally well-played Starmie stall team since it will have total hazard control and will have a much easier time forcing everything to die from switching repetidely into rocks, unless the Starmie team manages to stop rocks from going up and Deofog from happening which is obviously very difficult for a Stall team to pull off. Basically, Starmie is very good at spinning against offense, bulky offense, and balance, but completely falls flat on its face against stall, and although stall is uncommon in this metagame I feel like completely failing against an entire playstyle reason enough to keep it in B+

Magcargo I don't think it's fair to say that Landorus-I is a better wallbreaker than YZard simply because YZard has 2 very important things Landorus-I lacks. The first is a spammable STAB. While YZard can Fire Blast/Flamethrower and almost guarantee something will take damage, Ground immunities are common to a point where Earth Power can be a very risky move, potentially giving a completely free turn to the opponent. There is absolutely no risk in using Flamethrower since even if you hit a resist at least you'll have worn something down. (This also ties into the Keldeo v Landorus discussion we had a while back)
The second one is recovery. Recovery may not seem like something you'd want on a wallbreaker, but trust me, they tend to get worn down a lot when facing defensive teams and sometimes can't quite finish the job. Roost basically means that Toxic, as well as minor damage from resisted attacks or defensive Pokemon are far less effective on YZard than most other stallbreakers, who are basically on a timer to do as much damage as they can unless you provide (Healing) Wish, and this includes Lando-I.

 

[trc]

I don't think it's fair to say that Landorus-I is a better wallbreaker than YZard simply because YZard has 2 very important things Landorus-I lacks. The first is a spammable STAB. While YZard can Fire Blast/Flamethrower and almost guarantee something will take damage, Ground immunities are common to a point where Earth Power can be a very risky move, potentially giving a completely free turn to the opponent. There is absolutely no risk in using Flamethrower since even if you hit a resist at least you'll have worn something down. (This also ties into the Keldeo v Landorus discussion we had a while back)
The second one is recovery. Recovery may not seem like something you'd want on a wallbreaker, but trust me, they tend to get worn down a lot when facing defensive teams and sometimes can't quite finish the job. Roost basically means that Toxic, as well as minor damage from resisted attacks or defensive Pokemon are far less effective on YZard than most other stallbreakers, who are basically on a timer to do as much damage as they can unless you provide (Healing) Wish, and this includes Lando-I.

I think Landorus is easily a better wallbreaker than Zard Y for a number of reasons. I hear the argument all the time that Landorus isn't the best wallbreaker because it lacks a "spammable STAB". What, does this mean one without immunities? Because of Sheer Force, Landorus has three STAB moves common on its sets, which means its very rare to find a Pokemon that wants to switch in on any of Earth Power, Focus Blast, and Psychic, unlike Mega Charizard X which only has one STAB move on any of its sets. Mega Charizard Y has more switch-ins because the Lati twins, common on most offensive teams, can switch into any of its moves, whereas Latios and Latias check Landorus, but they can't switch in on its moveset at all times thanks to Knock Off which is a common move. Even on defensive teams, Chansey will always be able to switch into Mega Charizard Y barring Flare Blitz, while Chansey has to take Knock Off from Landorus, and while those two cases may seem similar, Flare Blitz is far less common on Mega Charizard Y than Knock Off is on Landorus because the latter is worth so much more in this meta, surprising Chansey isn't that important for reasons stated in both of our recent posts. Landorus is just a scarier wallbreaker because nothing but Cresselia switches in on its whole moveset and has the recovery to consistently do so, while Mega Charizard X at least has Latios and Latias which do switch in on its whole moveset so are far better checks to Zard Y than they are to Landorus. Also, Landorus's one point of extra Speed is helpful as it allows Landorus to threaten Mega Charizard X, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Medicham, which Mega Charizard Y risks Speed tying with. Finally, the lack of recovery can be troublesome but Landorus would prefer the extra coverage from its expansive move options for its "counters", while Mega Charizard Y's SR weakness makes it much more reliant on Roost anyway.

 

[Alfalfa]

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia in Sun: 249-294 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mega zard x needs to be mega and have rocks gone! to not get koed by fireblast+focus blast

Focus punch zard-Y... Not kidding can function to nail chansey, still beats TTar and heatran switchins.

Also, when you're already comparing to m-Hera, no, Zardy does not have the coverage and boosting moves Hera has, however Hera does not have the same kind of nuke all attack Zardy have in fireblast, and is therefore much easier to switch into (Latis for cc, zard for pin missile etc.)

And please explain "Etc" what other switching exists?

Cresselia generally is Specially Defensive:

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia in Sun: 187-222 (42.1 - 50%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[Srn]

Aight gonna go a bit off topic to show off a little fren

Gourgeist-Small for C+
This thing is seriously better than I thought it would be, and quite frankly, I thought it would be good but hot damn its annoying as all shit. Grass/Ghost gives you some solid defensive typing to work with and you can come in on a lot of random attacks, like anything scarf lando-t does bar u-turn or most of what keldeo does bar specs hydro. When it does come in, it can threaten so much out with a potential burn. Its by far the best sub-seeder in the tier and that comes with the additional bonus of being able to spin block excadrill, which nothing else in pokemon can even do bar arceus-ghost and defensive dusclops.
But really that's just the minor details. Let's get down to what actually makes gourgeist-small good. Its 99 base speed. This fast burn is incredibly potent, it lets you burn SO many things before they can attack.

Things Gourgest-Small can just burn

Scizor
Diggersby
MGyara
Tyranitar
Breloom
Azumarill
Bisharp
Dragonite
Excadrill
Ferrothorn
Heracross
Kyurem-Black
Mamoswine
Unevolved Pinsir
Crawdaunt
Adamant CB Staraptor
Adamant Mega medi
Toxicroak
Lucario
Landorus-T

That's a fucking beautiful list. Notice that some of these mons will just straight up OHKO you after you do burn them, but that's up to you: if you think it's worth it to sack gourgeist-s to burn a crucial threat to your team such as kyurem-b, then it's probably worth it. Hell, this is hardly even a flaw because you actually have the OPTION to do so! Not to mention that gourgeist-s is the last pokemon in the world that you want to give a free turn to, and many people don't realize that at first. Like seriously it may not take advantage of a free turn as well as other pokemon can strictly speaking but it is so fucking annoying once it gets up a sub, just like all and any sub seeders are.
Unfortunately gourgeist-s is set up fodder for any fire type and taunt bait in general, and its not THAT bulky, so it should probably never rise above B but for now lets take it in baby steps and go C+ :]
HERE is a match where the pumpkin's speed kinda saved my ass against a late game mgyara. (Turn 60~)

 

[Alfalfa]

Okay, so I was originally really unwilling to let Kyurem-B drop to B+ Rank, but now that I think about it, it is not the end of the world. It is indeed a little slow, weak to Stealth Rock, and cannot break everything with four moves alone. I do not know anything about its Assault Vest set, I have never used it, so I cannot any input on that. I just know that from the several times I have used the Life Orb mixed set, its low speed and its inability to break Clefable / Ferrothorn, or even Chansey without locking yourself into Outrage is considerably annoying. I am now willing to discuss dropping Kyurem-B to B+ Rank.

Can I also ask: is Ditto really worth being in C+ Rank? I have never seen a Ditto that was used well; most of the time, people just make really dumb moves with their Ditto. I guess it was really lethal pre-Swagger ban, because you could copy an opponent's boosts after Swaggering them, but now things have changed. Is Ditto really worth C+ Rank?

 

[AM]

Okay, so I was originally really unwilling to let Kyurem-B drop to B+ Rank, but now that I think about it, it is not the end of the world. It is indeed a little slow, weak to Stealth Rock, and cannot break everything with four moves alone. I do not know anything about its Assault Vest set, I have never used it, so I cannot any input on that. I just know that from the several times I have used the Life Orb mixed set, its low speed and its inability to break Clefable / Ferrothorn, or even Chansey without locking yourself into Outrage is considerably annoying. I am now willing to discuss dropping Kyurem-B to B+ Rank.

Can I also ask: is Ditto really worth being in C+ Rank? I have never seen a Ditto that was used well; most of the time, people just make really dumb moves with their Ditto. I guess it was really lethal pre-Swagger ban, because you could copy an opponent's boosts after Swaggering them, but now things have changed. Is Ditto really worth C+ Rank?

Ditto can find itself on a handful of teams such as those with Wobb or Gothitelle for example and can be used very well to check set up sweepers, scout for moves, take advantage of ones team build, basically the usual stuff. It's one of those things that doesn't really change on how the meta changes cause, well, it's Ditto what more can be explained lol. I have no real stance on its ranking but it's definitely got some potential in the hands of a competent player.

 

[Sevifar]

Afaik the best use for ditto is scarfing it and coming in after your opponent has setup with one of their sweepers, you come in and can usually do some damage, or best case scenario completely reverse their sweep.

It's pretty situational and there's a lot of mons who can do the same sort of thing (stop sweeps) like Thundy or Talonflame but Ditto separates itself from them by being much more of a deterrent to sweeping. Its presence on an enemy's team will often dissuade them from trying to set up at all until it is KO'd.

Of course Talonflame and Thundy-T are much more useful overall since they have utility outside that specific situation. I had ditto on a team in early gen 6 and did a pretty good job, dunno if much has changed since then.

 

[Firebird101]

Why is Quagsire still in B? As far as I know no one uses it anymore and it isnt hard to beat at all. Poor stats hinder it from walling most mega wallbreakers and its kinda of a deadweight nowadays.

/Will eloborate later if people disagree with me.

 

[Clone]

Alright so this wasn't mentioned in the last update and I brought it up before, but I really think that Diggersby deserves to move up to A.

Double Bunny is a popular teambuild right now and for good reason. Azu lives like any hit and hits back hard, but we all know that. However, I still feel that Diggersby is the true star of the show.

He has an insane attack stat thanks to Huge Power, as well as two high powered STABs to work with that are only resisted by floating steels and Gengar in OU (and Aerodactyl I guess), which gives him awesom coverage off the bat. Add on the fact that +2 Quick Attack OHKOes Greninja, Weakened Lati@s, and Thundy, Diggersby has a definite niche in being able to handle offense after a boost. This isn't even including that +2 Adamant LO Return OHKOes the following: Crocune, Chansey, Rotom-W, Defensive Lando T (even after Intimidate), Azumarill, Mew, slightly weakened Slowbro, and Clefable (2HKOes unaware variants). Earthquake hits Ferrothorn and Scizor (mega), KOing both at +2. Basically this means that Diggersby is the bane of defensive and balance teams.

Paired with Magnezone and Pinsir, Diggersby doesn't even care about Skarm or offense because the other two handle it quite well. There's a reason why SD Spam + Mag is so popular atm, and it's because it simply overpowers all common defensive builds.

This isn't even mentioning Scarf, which can actually get past Gengar and Skarmory thanks to a Wild Charge, while simultaneously hitting faster mons like the Latis with Return, as well as gaining momentum wih U-Turn.

With all of these positive traits I strongly feel that Diggersby is right at home with other A mons like Mega Medicham, Gliscor, Gengar, and Bisharp, as they all do their specific roles and they do them well. Diggersbys positives definitely outshine his negatives, as his relatively mediocre speed is offset by his access to priority, and his bulk, while mediocre, is still good enough to eat at least one neutral hit and retaliate with a strong STAB.

Diggersby for A

 

[Wargreymon]

Surprised that people are surprised that landorus moved down. It's almost dead weight against hyper offence (not entirely, but it struggles) and stall teams have quite a few options for it in generation 6 such as spdef gliscor, spdef dragonite, assault vest torndadus-T etc. It's a fantastic pokemon for sure with immense power, but it's just not the titan it once was. A+ is still freaking amazing and home to a lot the best pokemon in OU. I think that if we do ever decide to move landorus up to S again, we're being generous. It's a tricky one because there are good arguments for both ranks but I think it's better suited to A+ in today's metagame.

I would like to nominate Lucario for B rank. After playing with it a lot in UU where it is king I decided to try it in OU and it did not disappoint. Lucario is still a very scary late game cleaner. With an adamant nature and LO, a +2 lucario is a monster. Here's some crazy calcs to show how it's capable of tearing through the tier at +2

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 282-333 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 382-450 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 208-246 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 248-292 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

As you can see, +2 close combat is jaw dropping, but that's not where the pain ends, no, it's only beginning. This is why I believe lucario needs to move up. Feast your eyes upon the power of a +2 extreme speed.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 266-315 (88 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 209-247 (86.7 - 102.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 307-361 (107.3 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 291-343 (97.9 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 265-312 (101.5 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Basically, anything unlucky enough to be slower than lucario is crushed and OHKO'd by close combat, and most things faster get straight up OHKO'd by extreme speed as long as rocks are up. Prior damage makes this process even easier. The last move slot is for coverage and I feel bullet punch works best for its ability to deal with fairies but more importantly...

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 251-296 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 361-429 (111.7 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 369-437 (94.3 - 111.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Ice punch can be used for defensive landorus-T because otherwise it laughs at lucario, but gengar and terrakion beat lucario without BP.
Nothing can switch in (not even slowbro as it risks getting KO'd by extreme speed after rocks and the initial close combat). E speed even 2HKO's standard stall breaker mew. Even most things that get a safe switch in have trouble checking it.
The only problem lucario faces is that it's frail, but if it can set up mid-late game it's a total monster and literally rips through nearly the entire tier. I feel it deserves to be higher than B-. Apologies for all the calcs but I felt they were necessary to show what this forgotten monster can do.

 

[zbr]

Basically, anything unlucky enough to be slower than lucario is crushed and OHKO'd by close combat, and most things faster get straight up OHKO'd by extreme speed as long as rocks are up. Prior damage makes this process even easier. The last move slot is for coverage and I feel bullet punch works best for its ability to deal with fairies but more importantly...

This is basically the issue as to why Luke can't move up as easily through the rank. Base 90 Speed in OU is a pretty crappy speed tier. The large reliance on non Stab Espeed/Stab BP and the need to set up as well as before he can put in work. Even then, he can easily be checked and dealt with. Compared to the others in B, Luke is a lot more lackluster and requires a lot of support because of how fast our meta is now.

 

[Wargreymon]

But +2 e speed OHKO's a ton of faster threats that try to check lucario...
I did calcs to show that. Anything even remotely frail dies to it. Speed is not a problem for lucario. That was literally the point of those E-speed calcs lol.

 

[theV8man]

The real problem for Lucario isn't speed (although it sucks that it can't do anything vs. Terrakion), but its frailty. Lucario is great when it's at 2+, but because of its defense it's very difficult to find an opportunity to set up in the offensive environment of OU. Before setting up, it's too weak to threaten faster pokes with E-speed, and it's CC doesn't dent walls quite hard enough. I can't really think of any Pokemon that Lucario would actually want to set up on.

 

[Wargreymon]

Very true, most of the times I got to set up where when threatening to OHKO a heatran or t-tar which can both stay in and OHKO lucario if they're willing to get sacked, but I figured that a +2 lucario is such a ridiculously powerful late game cleaner that it deserved to be a little higher than B-. You can come in on the lati twins at -2 when they've just nuked something with draco. Bisharp can be used to set up if your opponent can't afford to sack it at that moment during the game. Chansey is fodder if it lacks thunder-wave.

I fully agree with both of you on the issue of setting up, but I thought the fact that it eats teams at +2 far outshines the fact that it's frail. Maybe it shouldn't move up.

 

[Celticpride]

Its overall required by the support of "stealth rocks" that Lucario has to OHKO a pokemon. Without that for SD Lucario would be pretty much done for.

It's OK to assume SR is on the field when posting calcs. In fact, you almost default to SR being on the field.

 

[Blizzardhail]

Agreeing with what you said, Lucario has a crappy based 70 across the bar in defenses as well. Its pretty frail. Based 90 speed is only going to outspeed what, 50% of pokemon that's UU? Seriously, I fully am 100% with your statement.

How something performs in UU doesn't not matter. Hippowdon is B+ in UU but performs slightly better at A- in OU

Its overall required by the support of "stealth rocks" that Lucario has to OHKO a pokemon. Without that for SD Lucario would be pretty much done for.

You do realise that most sweepers appreciate Stealth Rocks to secure OHKOs right? Stealth Rocks' residual damage is useful for wearing down checks and counters

 

[Wargreymon]

I didn't say you said it, I said you implied it.
"Its overall required by the support of "stealth rocks" that Lucario has to OHKO a pokemon. Without that for SD Lucario would be pretty much done for."
You very clearly said that lucario would be "done for" without SR, implying that it's bad without SR support.
Regardless, I apologise for calling your comment stupid. It was unnecessary and stupid of me.

 

[Karxrida]

I'm saying that due to the calculations, its confirmed that Lucario has to sweep due to support from SR.



As you had calculated with the majority of Stealth Rocks being used, here is what I'm saying, you don't need to use Stealth Rocks to OHKO a pokemon with Lucario. It made me think from your calculations, "wow Lucario has to rely on SR to OHKO a pokemon" You can just use Close Combat on a Kyurem-B without the use of SR or SD for example.
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 554-655 (141.6 - 167.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Still as do I in apologizing in getting upset with you calling my comment stupid and there are other ways to arrange it instead.

SR is necessary for E-Speed to OHKO important targets like Talonflame and Thundurus at +2 and Kyurem-B is starting to run Scarf more to keep up with the meta.

 

[SJCrew]

This is why Lucario performs best against offense. Though offense can still carry some good checks to him even at +2, most of the things that hard wall him are less likely to show up there. Mew, Cress, and Slowbro are almost exclusively stall members. Of those three, Mew is the one most likely to show up on a balanced team, so it's really one of the few things Lucario even fears. The rest of his checks, like Lando-T, are pretty easy to wear down to the point of a sweep.

 

[Wargreymon]

That's what impresses me most about luke. Fair enough setting up against offence can be problematic, but once you get to +2 lucario rips through most offence like paper.
The debate is really just whether or not that power outshines lucarios defences enough to be moved up, which I believe it does. I'm not asking for a giant jump here. B rank seems reasonable to me, B- seems underwhelming for something capable of running through a playstyle with a nuclear STAB and the best priority move in the game.
People really underestimate the power of a +2 LO e-speed, those calcs I posted are f****** insane.

Buuuut if lucario stays B- I'm not going to complain considering every argument against it so far has been reasonable.