I feel like I have mad this argument too many times now but once again, Charizard Y is amazing in the meta right now, the use of really passive mons like chansey which gave it trouble are way down and the only defensive mon that really gives it any trouble right now is heatran, which charizard's partner in crime, keldeo walks all over. It demolishes defensive mons like ferrothorn, Landorus T, Gliscor, slowbro, venusaur, you name it. It also beats a ton of top tier pokemon 1v1, has insane power from fire blast which is easy to spam. It has solid bulk, reliable recovery etc etc. Also people need to stop saying that the fact that it needs support is so limiting. Sure it needs a spinner/defogging which every team packs anyway and a pursuit trapper is nice but the best part is that it gets this support from great mons like keldeo, the lati twins, t tar, bisharp and excadrill (they are all A rank or above), all of whom are easy to fit on teams with zard Y and work great with it. It's not like using zard y forces you to use a bunch of niche garbage in order to support it. Anyway about the ranks, while it is amazing, its average speed, unimpressive physical bulk and SR weakness are enough to keep it from S rank but there is no way it should drop from A+. It is simply too good right now.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Chansey dropping is pretty long overdue, I supported its drop alongside Skarmory's a while back, and I still feel like that was correct at the time, but Skarmory has undoubtedly gotten better since then, what with its ability to deal with physical spam teams with a Shed Shell equipped (that is until Knock off Pinsir takes off on those kind of teams). Chansey, on the other hand, has gotten worse if anything, for reasons that have already been explained. I just don't see it on stall anymore, or at least not nearly as prominently as Skarmory, Jirachi, Doublade, or Starmie. For that reason I feel like it could drop down to further to B though it's arguably better than a few things down there (looking at you, Quagsire). But I really don't think it's as good as anything an B+. In any case, it should definitely be dropped to B+ for the time being.
Speaking of Starmie, I'd like to go back on my nomination for it to move at A-. (please note that I will only be discussing the defensive set here) After further testing, turns it's not as reliable as I thought it was. The problem, oddly enough, isn't Gengar (who does get worn down by Scald and can be outlasted by Starmie without too much difficuly), it's Doublade. Doublade just completely stops Starmie from doing anything at all, even has Rest so it can't get worn down from repeated Scalds and guarantees rocks will stay up on your side of the team. This is especially troublesome given that Starmie is supposed to be used on stall, a playstyle which cannot apply enough offensive pressure on opposing stall teams to stop rocks from going up in the first place. And if we assume that Doublade is on every stall team (which is not necessarily an incorrect assumption) and that Starmie and Skarmory are the only relevant hazard removers for Stall (again, not far from the truth), a well-played Skarmory stall team will pretty much always win against an equally well-played Starmie stall team since it will have total hazard control and will have a much easier time forcing everything to die from switching repetidely into rocks, unless the Starmie team manages to stop rocks from going up and Deofog from happening which is obviously very difficult for a Stall team to pull off. Basically, Starmie is very good at spinning against offense, bulky offense, and balance, but completely falls flat on its face against stall, and although stall is uncommon in this metagame I feel like completely failing against an entire playstyle reason enough to keep it in B+
Magcargo I don't think it's fair to say that Landorus-I is a better wallbreaker than YZard simply because YZard has 2 very important things Landorus-I lacks. The first is a spammable STAB. While YZard can Fire Blast/Flamethrower and almost guarantee something will take damage, Ground immunities are common to a point where Earth Power can be a very risky move, potentially giving a completely free turn to the opponent. There is absolutely no risk in using Flamethrower since even if you hit a resist at least you'll have worn something down. (This also ties into the Keldeo v Landorus discussion we had a while back)
The second one is recovery. Recovery may not seem like something you'd want on a wallbreaker, but trust me, they tend to get worn down a lot when facing defensive teams and sometimes can't quite finish the job. Roost basically means that Toxic, as well as minor damage from resisted attacks or defensive Pokemon are far less effective on YZard than most other stallbreakers, who are basically on a timer to do as much damage as they can unless you provide (Healing) Wish, and this includes Lando-I.
Speaking of Starmie, I'd like to go back on my nomination for it to move at A-. (please note that I will only be discussing the defensive set here) After further testing, turns it's not as reliable as I thought it was. The problem, oddly enough, isn't Gengar (who does get worn down by Scald and can be outlasted by Starmie without too much difficuly), it's Doublade. Doublade just completely stops Starmie from doing anything at all, even has Rest so it can't get worn down from repeated Scalds and guarantees rocks will stay up on your side of the team. This is especially troublesome given that Starmie is supposed to be used on stall, a playstyle which cannot apply enough offensive pressure on opposing stall teams to stop rocks from going up in the first place. And if we assume that Doublade is on every stall team (which is not necessarily an incorrect assumption) and that Starmie and Skarmory are the only relevant hazard removers for Stall (again, not far from the truth), a well-played Skarmory stall team will pretty much always win against an equally well-played Starmie stall team since it will have total hazard control and will have a much easier time forcing everything to die from switching repetidely into rocks, unless the Starmie team manages to stop rocks from going up and Deofog from happening which is obviously very difficult for a Stall team to pull off. Basically, Starmie is very good at spinning against offense, bulky offense, and balance, but completely falls flat on its face against stall, and although stall is uncommon in this metagame I feel like completely failing against an entire playstyle reason enough to keep it in B+
Magcargo I don't think it's fair to say that Landorus-I is a better wallbreaker than YZard simply because YZard has 2 very important things Landorus-I lacks. The first is a spammable STAB. While YZard can Fire Blast/Flamethrower and almost guarantee something will take damage, Ground immunities are common to a point where Earth Power can be a very risky move, potentially giving a completely free turn to the opponent. There is absolutely no risk in using Flamethrower since even if you hit a resist at least you'll have worn something down. (This also ties into the Keldeo v Landorus discussion we had a while back)
The second one is recovery. Recovery may not seem like something you'd want on a wallbreaker, but trust me, they tend to get worn down a lot when facing defensive teams and sometimes can't quite finish the job. Roost basically means that Toxic, as well as minor damage from resisted attacks or defensive Pokemon are far less effective on YZard than most other stallbreakers, who are basically on a timer to do as much damage as they can unless you provide (Healing) Wish, and this includes Lando-I.
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I think Landorus is easily a better wallbreaker than Zard Y for a number of reasons. I hear the argument all the time that Landorus isn't the best wallbreaker because it lacks a "spammable STAB". What, does this mean one without immunities? Because of Sheer Force, Landorus has three STAB moves common on its sets, which means its very rare to find a Pokemon that wants to switch in on any of Earth Power, Focus Blast, and Psychic, unlike Mega Charizard X which only has one STAB move on any of its sets. Mega Charizard Y has more switch-ins because the Lati twins, common on most offensive teams, can switch into any of its moves, whereas Latios and Latias check Landorus, but they can't switch in on its moveset at all times thanks to Knock Off which is a common move. Even on defensive teams, Chansey will always be able to switch into Mega Charizard Y barring Flare Blitz, while Chansey has to take Knock Off from Landorus, and while those two cases may seem similar, Flare Blitz is far less common on Mega Charizard Y than Knock Off is on Landorus because the latter is worth so much more in this meta, surprising Chansey isn't that important for reasons stated in both of our recent posts. Landorus is just a scarier wallbreaker because nothing but Cresselia switches in on its whole moveset and has the recovery to consistently do so, while Mega Charizard X at least has Latios and Latias which do switch in on its whole moveset so are far better checks to Zard Y than they are to Landorus. Also, Landorus's one point of extra Speed is helpful as it allows Landorus to threaten Mega Charizard X, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Medicham, which Mega Charizard Y risks Speed tying with. Finally, the lack of recovery can be troublesome but Landorus would prefer the extra coverage from its expansive move options for its "counters", while Mega Charizard Y's SR weakness makes it much more reliant on Roost anyway.
Cresselia generally is Specially Defensive:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia in Sun: 187-222 (42.1 - 50%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Aight gonna go a bit off topic to show off a little fren
Gourgeist-Small for C+
This thing is seriously better than I thought it would be, and quite frankly, I thought it would be good but hot damn its annoying as all shit. Grass/Ghost gives you some solid defensive typing to work with and you can come in on a lot of random attacks, like anything scarf lando-t does bar u-turn or most of what keldeo does bar specs hydro. When it does come in, it can threaten so much out with a potential burn. Its by far the best sub-seeder in the tier and that comes with the additional bonus of being able to spin block excadrill, which nothing else in pokemon can even do bar arceus-ghost and defensive dusclops.
But really that's just the minor details. Let's get down to what actually makes gourgeist-small good. Its 99 base speed. This fast burn is incredibly potent, it lets you burn SO many things before they can attack.
That's a fucking beautiful list. Notice that some of these mons will just straight up OHKO you after you do burn them, but that's up to you: if you think it's worth it to sack gourgeist-s to burn a crucial threat to your team such as kyurem-b, then it's probably worth it. Hell, this is hardly even a flaw because you actually have the OPTION to do so! Not to mention that gourgeist-s is the last pokemon in the world that you want to give a free turn to, and many people don't realize that at first. Like seriously it may not take advantage of a free turn as well as other pokemon can strictly speaking but it is so fucking annoying once it gets up a sub, just like all and any sub seeders are.
Unfortunately gourgeist-s is set up fodder for any fire type and taunt bait in general, and its not THAT bulky, so it should probably never rise above B but for now lets take it in baby steps and go C+ :]
HERE is a match where the pumpkin's speed kinda saved my ass against a late game mgyara. (Turn 60~)
Gourgeist-Small for C+
This thing is seriously better than I thought it would be, and quite frankly, I thought it would be good but hot damn its annoying as all shit. Grass/Ghost gives you some solid defensive typing to work with and you can come in on a lot of random attacks, like anything scarf lando-t does bar u-turn or most of what keldeo does bar specs hydro. When it does come in, it can threaten so much out with a potential burn. Its by far the best sub-seeder in the tier and that comes with the additional bonus of being able to spin block excadrill, which nothing else in pokemon can even do bar arceus-ghost and defensive dusclops.
But really that's just the minor details. Let's get down to what actually makes gourgeist-small good. Its 99 base speed. This fast burn is incredibly potent, it lets you burn SO many things before they can attack.
Scizor
Diggersby
MGyara
Tyranitar
Breloom
Azumarill
Bisharp
Dragonite
Excadrill
Ferrothorn
Heracross
Kyurem-Black
Mamoswine
Unevolved Pinsir
Crawdaunt
Adamant CB Staraptor
Adamant Mega medi
Toxicroak
Lucario
Landorus-T
Diggersby
MGyara
Tyranitar
Breloom
Azumarill
Bisharp
Dragonite
Excadrill
Ferrothorn
Heracross
Kyurem-Black
Mamoswine
Unevolved Pinsir
Crawdaunt
Adamant CB Staraptor
Adamant Mega medi
Toxicroak
Lucario
Landorus-T
That's a fucking beautiful list. Notice that some of these mons will just straight up OHKO you after you do burn them, but that's up to you: if you think it's worth it to sack gourgeist-s to burn a crucial threat to your team such as kyurem-b, then it's probably worth it. Hell, this is hardly even a flaw because you actually have the OPTION to do so! Not to mention that gourgeist-s is the last pokemon in the world that you want to give a free turn to, and many people don't realize that at first. Like seriously it may not take advantage of a free turn as well as other pokemon can strictly speaking but it is so fucking annoying once it gets up a sub, just like all and any sub seeders are.
Unfortunately gourgeist-s is set up fodder for any fire type and taunt bait in general, and its not THAT bulky, so it should probably never rise above B but for now lets take it in baby steps and go C+ :]
HERE is a match where the pumpkin's speed kinda saved my ass against a late game mgyara. (Turn 60~)
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Okay, so I was originally really unwilling to let Kyurem-B drop to B+ Rank, but now that I think about it, it is not the end of the world. It is indeed a little slow, weak to Stealth Rock, and cannot break everything with four moves alone. I do not know anything about its Assault Vest set, I have never used it, so I cannot any input on that. I just know that from the several times I have used the Life Orb mixed set, its low speed and its inability to break Clefable / Ferrothorn, or even Chansey without locking yourself into Outrage is considerably annoying. I am now willing to discuss dropping Kyurem-B to B+ Rank.
Can I also ask: is Ditto really worth being in C+ Rank? I have never seen a Ditto that was used well; most of the time, people just make really dumb moves with their Ditto. I guess it was really lethal pre-Swagger ban, because you could copy an opponent's boosts after Swaggering them, but now things have changed. Is Ditto really worth C+ Rank?
Can I also ask: is Ditto really worth being in C+ Rank? I have never seen a Ditto that was used well; most of the time, people just make really dumb moves with their Ditto. I guess it was really lethal pre-Swagger ban, because you could copy an opponent's boosts after Swaggering them, but now things have changed. Is Ditto really worth C+ Rank?
Ditto can find itself on a handful of teams such as those with Wobb or Gothitelle for example and can be used very well to check set up sweepers, scout for moves, take advantage of ones team build, basically the usual stuff. It's one of those things that doesn't really change on how the meta changes cause, well, it's Ditto what more can be explained lol. I have no real stance on its ranking but it's definitely got some potential in the hands of a competent player.
Afaik the best use for ditto is scarfing it and coming in after your opponent has setup with one of their sweepers, you come in and can usually do some damage, or best case scenario completely reverse their sweep.
It's pretty situational and there's a lot of mons who can do the same sort of thing (stop sweeps) like Thundy or Talonflame but Ditto separates itself from them by being much more of a deterrent to sweeping. Its presence on an enemy's team will often dissuade them from trying to set up at all until it is KO'd.
Of course Talonflame and Thundy-T are much more useful overall since they have utility outside that specific situation. I had ditto on a team in early gen 6 and did a pretty good job, dunno if much has changed since then.
It's pretty situational and there's a lot of mons who can do the same sort of thing (stop sweeps) like Thundy or Talonflame but Ditto separates itself from them by being much more of a deterrent to sweeping. Its presence on an enemy's team will often dissuade them from trying to set up at all until it is KO'd.
Of course Talonflame and Thundy-T are much more useful overall since they have utility outside that specific situation. I had ditto on a team in early gen 6 and did a pretty good job, dunno if much has changed since then.
Why is Quagsire still in B? As far as I know no one uses it anymore and it isnt hard to beat at all. Poor stats hinder it from walling most mega wallbreakers and its kinda of a deadweight nowadays.
/Will eloborate later if people disagree with me.
/Will eloborate later if people disagree with me.
Alright so this wasn't mentioned in the last update and I brought it up before, but I really think that Diggersby deserves to move up to A.
Double Bunny is a popular teambuild right now and for good reason. Azu lives like any hit and hits back hard, but we all know that. However, I still feel that Diggersby is the true star of the show.
He has an insane attack stat thanks to Huge Power, as well as two high powered STABs to work with that are only resisted by floating steels and Gengar in OU (and Aerodactyl I guess), which gives him awesom coverage off the bat. Add on the fact that +2 Quick Attack OHKOes Greninja, Weakened Lati@s, and Thundy, Diggersby has a definite niche in being able to handle offense after a boost. This isn't even including that +2 Adamant LO Return OHKOes the following: Crocune, Chansey, Rotom-W, Defensive Lando T (even after Intimidate), Azumarill, Mew, slightly weakened Slowbro, and Clefable (2HKOes unaware variants). Earthquake hits Ferrothorn and Scizor (mega), KOing both at +2. Basically this means that Diggersby is the bane of defensive and balance teams.
Paired with Magnezone and Pinsir, Diggersby doesn't even care about Skarm or offense because the other two handle it quite well. There's a reason why SD Spam + Mag is so popular atm, and it's because it simply overpowers all common defensive builds.
This isn't even mentioning Scarf, which can actually get past Gengar and Skarmory thanks to a Wild Charge, while simultaneously hitting faster mons like the Latis with Return, as well as gaining momentum wih U-Turn.
With all of these positive traits I strongly feel that Diggersby is right at home with other A mons like Mega Medicham, Gliscor, Gengar, and Bisharp, as they all do their specific roles and they do them well. Diggersbys positives definitely outshine his negatives, as his relatively mediocre speed is offset by his access to priority, and his bulk, while mediocre, is still good enough to eat at least one neutral hit and retaliate with a strong STAB.
Diggersby for A
Double Bunny is a popular teambuild right now and for good reason. Azu lives like any hit and hits back hard, but we all know that. However, I still feel that Diggersby is the true star of the show.
He has an insane attack stat thanks to Huge Power, as well as two high powered STABs to work with that are only resisted by floating steels and Gengar in OU (and Aerodactyl I guess), which gives him awesom coverage off the bat. Add on the fact that +2 Quick Attack OHKOes Greninja, Weakened Lati@s, and Thundy, Diggersby has a definite niche in being able to handle offense after a boost. This isn't even including that +2 Adamant LO Return OHKOes the following: Crocune, Chansey, Rotom-W, Defensive Lando T (even after Intimidate), Azumarill, Mew, slightly weakened Slowbro, and Clefable (2HKOes unaware variants). Earthquake hits Ferrothorn and Scizor (mega), KOing both at +2. Basically this means that Diggersby is the bane of defensive and balance teams.
Paired with Magnezone and Pinsir, Diggersby doesn't even care about Skarm or offense because the other two handle it quite well. There's a reason why SD Spam + Mag is so popular atm, and it's because it simply overpowers all common defensive builds.
This isn't even mentioning Scarf, which can actually get past Gengar and Skarmory thanks to a Wild Charge, while simultaneously hitting faster mons like the Latis with Return, as well as gaining momentum wih U-Turn.
With all of these positive traits I strongly feel that Diggersby is right at home with other A mons like Mega Medicham, Gliscor, Gengar, and Bisharp, as they all do their specific roles and they do them well. Diggersbys positives definitely outshine his negatives, as his relatively mediocre speed is offset by his access to priority, and his bulk, while mediocre, is still good enough to eat at least one neutral hit and retaliate with a strong STAB.
Diggersby for A
Surprised that people are surprised that landorus moved down. It's almost dead weight against hyper offence (not entirely, but it struggles) and stall teams have quite a few options for it in generation 6 such as spdef gliscor, spdef dragonite, assault vest torndadus-T etc. It's a fantastic pokemon for sure with immense power, but it's just not the titan it once was. A+ is still freaking amazing and home to a lot the best pokemon in OU. I think that if we do ever decide to move landorus up to S again, we're being generous. It's a tricky one because there are good arguments for both ranks but I think it's better suited to A+ in today's metagame.
I would like to nominate Lucario for B rank. After playing with it a lot in UU where it is king I decided to try it in OU and it did not disappoint. Lucario is still a very scary late game cleaner. With an adamant nature and LO, a +2 lucario is a monster. Here's some crazy calcs to show how it's capable of tearing through the tier at +2
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 282-333 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 382-450 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 208-246 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 248-292 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
As you can see, +2 close combat is jaw dropping, but that's not where the pain ends, no, it's only beginning. This is why I believe lucario needs to move up. Feast your eyes upon the power of a +2 extreme speed.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 266-315 (88 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 209-247 (86.7 - 102.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 307-361 (107.3 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 291-343 (97.9 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 265-312 (101.5 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Basically, anything unlucky enough to be slower than lucario is crushed and OHKO'd by close combat, and most things faster get straight up OHKO'd by extreme speed as long as rocks are up. Prior damage makes this process even easier. The last move slot is for coverage and I feel bullet punch works best for its ability to deal with fairies but more importantly...
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 251-296 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 361-429 (111.7 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 369-437 (94.3 - 111.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Ice punch can be used for defensive landorus-T because otherwise it laughs at lucario, but gengar and terrakion beat lucario without BP.
Nothing can switch in (not even slowbro as it risks getting KO'd by extreme speed after rocks and the initial close combat). E speed even 2HKO's standard stall breaker mew. Even most things that get a safe switch in have trouble checking it.
The only problem lucario faces is that it's frail, but if it can set up mid-late game it's a total monster and literally rips through nearly the entire tier. I feel it deserves to be higher than B-. Apologies for all the calcs but I felt they were necessary to show what this forgotten monster can do.
I would like to nominate Lucario for B rank. After playing with it a lot in UU where it is king I decided to try it in OU and it did not disappoint. Lucario is still a very scary late game cleaner. With an adamant nature and LO, a +2 lucario is a monster. Here's some crazy calcs to show how it's capable of tearing through the tier at +2
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 282-333 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 382-450 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 208-246 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 248-292 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
As you can see, +2 close combat is jaw dropping, but that's not where the pain ends, no, it's only beginning. This is why I believe lucario needs to move up. Feast your eyes upon the power of a +2 extreme speed.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 266-315 (88 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 209-247 (86.7 - 102.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 307-361 (107.3 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 291-343 (97.9 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 265-312 (101.5 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Basically, anything unlucky enough to be slower than lucario is crushed and OHKO'd by close combat, and most things faster get straight up OHKO'd by extreme speed as long as rocks are up. Prior damage makes this process even easier. The last move slot is for coverage and I feel bullet punch works best for its ability to deal with fairies but more importantly...
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 251-296 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 361-429 (111.7 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 369-437 (94.3 - 111.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Ice punch can be used for defensive landorus-T because otherwise it laughs at lucario, but gengar and terrakion beat lucario without BP.
Nothing can switch in (not even slowbro as it risks getting KO'd by extreme speed after rocks and the initial close combat). E speed even 2HKO's standard stall breaker mew. Even most things that get a safe switch in have trouble checking it.
The only problem lucario faces is that it's frail, but if it can set up mid-late game it's a total monster and literally rips through nearly the entire tier. I feel it deserves to be higher than B-. Apologies for all the calcs but I felt they were necessary to show what this forgotten monster can do.
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This is basically the issue as to why Luke can't move up as easily through the rank. Base 90 Speed in OU is a pretty crappy speed tier. The large reliance on non Stab Espeed/Stab BP and the need to set up as well as before he can put in work. Even then, he can easily be checked and dealt with. Compared to the others in B, Luke is a lot more lackluster and requires a lot of support because of how fast our meta is now.
But +2 e speed OHKO's a ton of faster threats that try to check lucario...
I did calcs to show that. Anything even remotely frail dies to it. Speed is not a problem for lucario. That was literally the point of those E-speed calcs lol.
I did calcs to show that. Anything even remotely frail dies to it. Speed is not a problem for lucario. That was literally the point of those E-speed calcs lol.
The real problem for Lucario isn't speed (although it sucks that it can't do anything vs. Terrakion), but its frailty. Lucario is great when it's at 2+, but because of its defense it's very difficult to find an opportunity to set up in the offensive environment of OU. Before setting up, it's too weak to threaten faster pokes with E-speed, and it's CC doesn't dent walls quite hard enough. I can't really think of any Pokemon that Lucario would actually want to set up on.
Very true, most of the times I got to set up where when threatening to OHKO a heatran or t-tar which can both stay in and OHKO lucario if they're willing to get sacked, but I figured that a +2 lucario is such a ridiculously powerful late game cleaner that it deserved to be a little higher than B-. You can come in on the lati twins at -2 when they've just nuked something with draco. Bisharp can be used to set up if your opponent can't afford to sack it at that moment during the game. Chansey is fodder if it lacks thunder-wave.
I fully agree with both of you on the issue of setting up, but I thought the fact that it eats teams at +2 far outshines the fact that it's frail. Maybe it shouldn't move up.
I fully agree with both of you on the issue of setting up, but I thought the fact that it eats teams at +2 far outshines the fact that it's frail. Maybe it shouldn't move up.
It's OK to assume SR is on the field when posting calcs. In fact, you almost default to SR being on the field.
How something performs in UU doesn't not matter. Hippowdon is B+ in UU but performs slightly better at A- in OU
You do realise that most sweepers appreciate Stealth Rocks to secure OHKOs right? Stealth Rocks' residual damage is useful for wearing down checks and counters
I didn't say you said it, I said you implied it.
"Its overall required by the support of "stealth rocks" that Lucario has to OHKO a pokemon. Without that for SD Lucario would be pretty much done for."
You very clearly said that lucario would be "done for" without SR, implying that it's bad without SR support.
Regardless, I apologise for calling your comment stupid. It was unnecessary and stupid of me.
"Its overall required by the support of "stealth rocks" that Lucario has to OHKO a pokemon. Without that for SD Lucario would be pretty much done for."
You very clearly said that lucario would be "done for" without SR, implying that it's bad without SR support.
Regardless, I apologise for calling your comment stupid. It was unnecessary and stupid of me.
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SR is necessary for E-Speed to OHKO important targets like Talonflame and Thundurus at +2 and Kyurem-B is starting to run Scarf more to keep up with the meta.
This is why Lucario performs best against offense. Though offense can still carry some good checks to him even at +2, most of the things that hard wall him are less likely to show up there. Mew, Cress, and Slowbro are almost exclusively stall members. Of those three, Mew is the one most likely to show up on a balanced team, so it's really one of the few things Lucario even fears. The rest of his checks, like Lando-T, are pretty easy to wear down to the point of a sweep.
That's what impresses me most about luke. Fair enough setting up against offence can be problematic, but once you get to +2 lucario rips through most offence like paper.
The debate is really just whether or not that power outshines lucarios defences enough to be moved up, which I believe it does. I'm not asking for a giant jump here. B rank seems reasonable to me, B- seems underwhelming for something capable of running through a playstyle with a nuclear STAB and the best priority move in the game.
People really underestimate the power of a +2 LO e-speed, those calcs I posted are f****** insane.
Buuuut if lucario stays B- I'm not going to complain considering every argument against it so far has been reasonable.
The debate is really just whether or not that power outshines lucarios defences enough to be moved up, which I believe it does. I'm not asking for a giant jump here. B rank seems reasonable to me, B- seems underwhelming for something capable of running through a playstyle with a nuclear STAB and the best priority move in the game.
People really underestimate the power of a +2 LO e-speed, those calcs I posted are f****** insane.
Buuuut if lucario stays B- I'm not going to complain considering every argument against it so far has been reasonable.
magnezone->a
this is a force in the meta. it has singlehandedly forced skarmory to run a subpar item in shed shell, the rise of SD+3 atks scizor, the decline of ferrothorn, and the rise of diggersby and mega pinsir. it can run a stupid powerful specs set, or a scarf set that can revenge mega pinsir and adamant talonflame. it even has that air balloon+magnet rise set to beat excadrill. that italian double bunny team just showcases how great mag can be. i honestly think it can be a+, but baby steps.
this is a force in the meta. it has singlehandedly forced skarmory to run a subpar item in shed shell, the rise of SD+3 atks scizor, the decline of ferrothorn, and the rise of diggersby and mega pinsir. it can run a stupid powerful specs set, or a scarf set that can revenge mega pinsir and adamant talonflame. it even has that air balloon+magnet rise set to beat excadrill. that italian double bunny team just showcases how great mag can be. i honestly think it can be a+, but baby steps.
The problem with Lucario is that offensive teams pack a lot of answers to +2 Extremespeed, such as Scarf Tyranitar, Mega Aerodactyl, Sand Rush Excadrill, Gengar, Terrakion, and Scarf Landorus-T. And those that don't, usually don't give any chance to Lucario to set up and don't mind saccing a Pokemon to avoid getting swept.
Also, Mew is not a big problem for Lucario, +2 Iron Tail does 84.4% minimum to 252 HP / 104 Def+ Mew, and +2 Crunch always OHKOes after SR.
Maybe it's time to try a dual priority set with Lucario, as most of its checks on offense are vulnerable to Bullet Punch, and +2 Bullet Punch even takes care of some defensive answers at +2, mainly SR Clefable.
Also, Mew is not a big problem for Lucario, +2 Iron Tail does 84.4% minimum to 252 HP / 104 Def+ Mew, and +2 Crunch always OHKOes after SR.
Maybe it's time to try a dual priority set with Lucario, as most of its checks on offense are vulnerable to Bullet Punch, and +2 Bullet Punch even takes care of some defensive answers at +2, mainly SR Clefable.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 351-416 (89 - 105.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Clefable Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 204-240 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Assuming you get the damage roll or get some prior damage.....
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scolipede.3495158/
A- I feel that scolipede plays a big role, being able to have the option of sweeping, or baton passing off to another pokemon such as a garchomp maybe. It already has a base 100 attack as it is, which is pretty high already. It also has the ability of Speed boost: This Pokemon's Speed is boosted by 1 at the end of each full turn on the field. I feel this pokemon should be moved out for it's power and support.- Status