Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

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LO Diglett can't OHKO bulky Chinchou without Stealth Rocks. Gothita can't OHKO Abra with Shadow Ball, or Timburr/Mienfoo with Psychic. So to me they're just mediocre revenge trappers who really only work consistently if your opponent has no fucking clue what they're doing.
 
Not being able to switch out can be really annoying and incompetitive and makes you play more cautiously to avoid getting outplayed and therefore trapped and KOed and it can be a huge problem for those who are new to the meta but I'll go straight ahead and say that trapping isn't broken in LC, your opponent's moves can be really obvious and you can avoid getting trapped by easily switching into a counter, but once again it's just a matter of predictions and 50/50, especially because Diglett and Gothita, which are the most common and threatening trappers at the moment lack sheer power like Wobbyble said that lets them get walled easily and they have low defenses which means they can't safely switch in to preform their job so the one using them should always sack something to let them in. What can be problematic in my opinion is the combination of trappers with sweepers (especially the ones with set up moves), an example is Zigzagoon that can be used with Diglett as the latter traps and can OHKO or at least weaken Rock- Steel-types, except Archen and the rare Bronzor, allowing Zigzagoon to set up comfortably without the fear of getting completely walled and Diglett can also use Memento to help Zigzagoon set up even easier. Speaking of Zigzagoon I don't think it's broken for two reasons: It needs a ton of support to do its job and it can be easily predicted and countered, just keep its revenge killers and counters healthy.

tl;dr version: Neither trapping nor Zigzagoon are broken in the current meta, yes they can be problematic if you don't predict correctly especially for people who are new to the meta. At least let's wait for ORAS to see what it's hiding for us.
 
why are annoying and uncompetitive in the same sentence
"Annoying" and "Uncompetitive" might seem very different in meaning that's true, but trapping can be described by both terms: The fact that that you can't switch out some Pokémon is annoying and how trapping abilities pretend switching which is one of the most important basis of competitive battling makes trapping uncompetitive. I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear in my post I thought the words are self explanator (Idk, maybe I didn't get your question).
 
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There's a difference between trapping is broken and a Pokemon with trapping is broken. We can all agree that Wynaut and Trapinch are not broken, even with trapping abilities, right? They are slow, difficult to use, and have a hard time reliably trapping anything. However, we argue that Pokemon like Gothita and Diglett are broken due to a combination of their traits, which happen to include trapping abilities. I will directly compare Diglett and Trapinch as they are very very similar. Trapinch is a Ground-type Pokemon with Arena Trap. However, it is incredibly slow and as such has a hard time actually trapping anything (besides in Trick Room). Furthermore, it does not possess Memento, guaranteeing a set-up turn on a Pokemon you have trapped, thus allowing you to plus with something and potentially win the game. It is not Arena Trap that makes Diglett broken (if it is) but instead Arena Trap, being in the fastest unboosted Speed tier, and Memento. We can make a similar allusion to Gothita and Wynaut though the differences are much less linear. Either way, I think we can very easily tell that trapping abilities are not inherently broken, but some of the Pokemon in Little Cup with trapping abilities might be (Diglett, Gothita). It would be better to change the discussion to incorporate that distinction.
 
This is going to be a long post but bear with me.

Broken typically is something that is blatantly too strong, non-competitive like Swagger, or unhealthy for the meta. I'm wish I could let myself completely gloss over Gothita because I think the idea that it could ever be LC ubers is completely and utterly ridiculous and is giving me a tumor.

Gothita is mega weak and it provides no value for a team unless it can remove key threats for something else to sweep. After revenging/trapping, it's locked into a move (pretty sure Scarf Gothita is the only thing that people use right now) and with its fairly low 15/16 SpA and a relatively weak stab and coverage movepool, it temporarily hands over momentum over to your opponent even in the case of a successful revenge. Its potential is based far too much on the opposing player's team to be remotely close to broken.
It's important to mention that its an extremely predictable pick. For example, past suspects like Gligar, Meditite, Misdreavus, Murkrow, and Swirlix all had an element of surprise in their sets that prevented you from planning ahead on a set way to deal with them. Gothita however, is a dead giveaway of the set aside from a mystery Hidden Power and whether or not it has Trick. From looking at your opponent's other picks you can easily deduce their strategy as well. This means there are still healthy ways of building around Gothita and playing against it, which is fairly different from the past suspects I mentioned above.

I can however understand why Diglett is being discussed, even though I highly disagree. I can see that Diglett has the potential to give far too much value for a team, being able to trap+revenge something one or more times, and then being able to Memento on top of it whenever it's usefulness as a revenger has passed. However, I firmly believe that playing around Diglett with a well built team is within the capabilities of every remotely decent player. Keeping your mons healthy enough to keep Diglett from trapping and getting value is part of being a smart player. Keeping yourself healthy enough to not be one shot for free by the opposing laner in MOBAs, being aware of burst potential in Hearthstone, and understanding how pressuring pieces work in chess are all fairly analogous to understanding how to keep your opponent from getting free value from running Diglett.
On paper it may look like there's not much downside to running Diglett plus some sweepers that benefit from Diglett's trapping ability, but really you're creating a team that is heavily reliant on certain specific criteria. Your sweepers also now are partially dependent on Diglett to provide support, and Diglett is dependent on the 5 other Pokes to maintain momentum and force switches and trades that allow for Diglett to use its ability, and some of those 5 other Pokes may be highly dependent on Diglett (like a Zigazoon). It may sound like I'm talking out of my ass, but think about how little support a combination like Dig + Zig provides for the other 4 members of a team. Diglett isn't some magic penis head that sticks out of the ground, ensuring your sweepers have the time of their life.

tl;dr
Gothita is predictable which allows for a healthy counterplay. Diglett has an illusion of a strong pick but creates inconsistency and overall weaker synergy in a team as a whole, which is its payoff for its capability as a trapper.
 

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This is going to be a long post but bear with me.

Broken typically is something that is blatantly too strong, non-competitive like Swagger, or unhealthy for the meta. I'm wish I could let myself completely gloss over Gothita because I think the idea that it could ever be LC ubers is completely and utterly ridiculous and is giving me a tumor.

Gothita is mega weak and it provides no value for a team unless it can remove key threats for something else to sweep. After revenging/trapping, it's locked into a move (pretty sure Scarf Gothita is the only thing that people use right now) and with its fairly low 15/16 SpA and a relatively weak stab and coverage movepool, it temporarily hands over momentum over to your opponent even in the case of a successful revenge. Its potential is based far too much on the opposing player's team to be remotely close to broken.
It's important to mention that its an extremely predictable pick. For example, past suspects like Gligar, Meditite, Misdreavus, Murkrow, and Swirlix all had an element of surprise in their sets that prevented you from planning ahead on a set way to deal with them. Gothita however, is a dead giveaway of the set aside from a mystery Hidden Power and whether or not it has Trick. From looking at your opponent's other picks you can easily deduce their strategy as well. This means there are still healthy ways of building around Gothita and playing against it, which is fairly different from the past suspects I mentioned above.

I can however understand why Diglett is being discussed, even though I highly disagree. I can see that Diglett has the potential to give far too much value for a team, being able to trap+revenge something one or more times, and then being able to Memento on top of it whenever it's usefulness as a revenger has passed. However, I firmly believe that playing around Diglett with a well built team is within the capabilities of every remotely decent player. Keeping your mons healthy enough to keep Diglett from trapping and getting value is part of being a smart player. Keeping yourself healthy enough to not be one shot for free by the opposing laner in MOBAs, being aware of burst potential in Hearthstone, and understanding how pressuring pieces work in chess are all fairly analogous to understanding how to keep your opponent from getting free value from running Diglett.
On paper it may look like there's not much downside to running Diglett plus some sweepers that benefit from Diglett's trapping ability, but really you're creating a team that is heavily reliant on certain specific criteria. Your sweepers also now are partially dependent on Diglett to provide support, and Diglett is dependent on the 5 other Pokes to maintain momentum and force switches and trades that allow for Diglett to use its ability, and some of those 5 other Pokes may be highly dependent on Diglett (like a Zigazoon). It may sound like I'm talking out of my ass, but think about how little support a combination like Dig + Zig provides for the other 4 members of a team. Diglett isn't some magic penis head that sticks out of the ground, ensuring your sweepers have the time of their life.

tl;dr
Gothita is predictable which allows for a healthy counterplay. Diglett has an illusion of a strong pick but creates inconsistency and overall weaker synergy in a team as a whole, which is its payoff for its capability as a trapper.
Note: I'm neither for nor against the suspecting of either of these, I'm just throwing points out there.

You compare Gothita's predictability to the unpredictability of past suspects, but all of those had at least one switch-in. Gothita doesn't have any switch-ins because nothing can switch out. Yes, a smart player can attempt to play around Gothita's capabilities, but an equally smart player can utilize Gothita to its fullest potential, predicting an opponent to switch into a Foongus and Croagunk and switching in Gothita to trap and either KO or effectively neuter the functionality of said Pokemon. A Pokemon doesn't need to have incredible versatility to succeed and be deemed "ban-worthy"; if it does its job so efficiently that it's seen as uncompetitive in the eyes of the playerbase, it can be suspected for just that reason. Hell, that's why Fletchling was suspected; not because of its ability run Nature Power or Hidden Power Grass, but because it could sweep with a +2 priority Acrobatics incredibly well.

This same idea of fulfilling a role efficiently also applies to Diglett, but Diglett actually has some versatility in terms of the standard set, unlike Gothita's Psychic / Hidden Power / Coverage / Coverage. Diglett can run a fully offensive Life Orb set with three attacks + Substitute, swap out Substitute for Stealth Rock or Sludge Bomb (cuz fuck Cottonee), run Memento over both options, opt for both Memento and Stealth Rock, or run a Sash set (possibly with Reversal cuz lol). It's both an incredibly threatening sweeper/trapper and a fast support Pokemon, and if either of these Pokemon are going to be suspected, Diglett deserves to have the most focus.
 
I think I should also point out before we get too carried away, the precedent (or at least it was) for how to value revenge killers is on their relative strength compared to the Pokemon they are revenge killing. Sure, it can revenge kill certain things but that also means another more powerful thing can come in. After a revenge kill, I'm pretty sure we can all agree we'd rather have most other Pokemon out on the field (save the rare situation you have a Memento opportunity with Diglett).
 
LO Diglett can't OHKO bulky Chinchou without Stealth Rocks. Gothita can't OHKO Abra with Shadow Ball, or Timburr/Mienfoo with Psychic. So to me they're just mediocre revenge trappers who really only work consistently if your opponent has no fucking clue what they're doing.
Goth and Dig typically require Knock Off support and/ or Volt turn. It should not be trying to Ohio abra as most of the time Abra runs Sash. Obviously you are trying to trap weakened shot with Goth, not Holding them outright.

Goth's successfulness is dependent on the opponent's team, but so is every mon. I agree with not banning it, as it really does hand over momentum in exchange for fracturing the opponent's team. I highly suggest that you try goth out and get a feel of how it ought to be played.
 
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I personally have no problems with Diglet or Gothita. Yah sure they can be annoying but so can any Pokémon properly used. If your up against a Voltturn Team Gothita is not very useful and Diglet can sometimes get a Chinchou or Magnemite.
 

tcr

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I dont think the point of people wanting Diglett or Gothita banned is because they are overpowered, or because they can revenge kill. As was talked in the Smogcast, prem originally brought this topic up to discuss how uncompetitive trapping is. As were his words, there are two things that you should ALWAYS be able to do in a match: use a move and switch, as this is the very most fundamental nature of battling. Trapping abilities take away that ability, essentially giving free leverage to a person with a trapping mon versus a person with a regular team (in this instance a regular team is standard bulky offense, not stall, not hyper offense). What the other player does determines who wins. In all honesty if two players of equal skill meet on the ladder, one with diglett one without, the person with the trapping ability is going to win. On the flip side, trapping abilities provide risks that the other player can play around, i.e. Through double switching and baiting and whatnot. For those concerned, my view is that while trapping may or may not be unhealthy to the metagame, it creates for interesting concepts at higher level play which promote thinking steps ahead, which is the entire point of a pokemon battle. I'm interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this, as we didnt talk a whole lot on this issue during the smogcast.
 
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Camden

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I actually don't mind trapping all too much in LC. While it is a silly and somewhat uncompetitive strategy, what I enjoy about it most is the mindgames that come up from having to play around it. The concept of baiting out a trapper is one of the only things I like about them existing. However, my opinions on meta-specific trapping vary. In the case of LC, I am partially annoyed by the fact that Diglett is the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the meta, and because of damage creep that LC presents, he hits fairly hard. If we at least had a few Pokemon that naturally outsped it, I wouldn't be as worried, but we don't. Another thing that TCR mentioned that I agree with is the concept of thinking many steps in advance, like you would in say a chess game, or in all honesty, any competitive event. With Trapping legal, a much higher level of skill and knowledge is required to be able to successfully play around it, and one simple mistake can cost you a match (sounds like most of my battles in general).
 
I dont think the point of people wanting Diglett or Gothita banned is because they are overpowered, or because they can revenge kill. As was talked in the Smogcast, prem originally brought this topic up to discuss how uncompetitive trapping is. As were his words, there are two things that you should ALWAYS be able to do in a match: use a move and switch, as this is the very most fundamental nature of battling. Trapping abilities take away that ability, essentially giving free leverage to a person with a trapping mon versus a person with a regular team (in this instance a regular team is standard bulky offense, not stall, not hyper offense). What the other player does determines who wins. In all honesty if two players of equal skill meet on the ladder, one with diglett one without, the person with the trapping ability is going to win. On the flip side, trapping abilities provide risks that the other player can play around, i.e. Through double switching and baiting and whatnot. For those concerned, my view is that while trapping may or may not be unhealthy to the metagame, it creates for interesting concepts at higher level play which promote thinking steps ahead, which is the entire point of a pokemon battle. I'm interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this, as we didnt talk a whole lot on this issue during the smogcast.
so lets ban outrage ;)

In all seriousness though, the statement: "In all honesty if two players of equal skill meet on the ladder, one with diglett one without, the person with the trapping ability is going to win." is incredibly concerning if that's going to hold any weight in people's thoughts of whether to ban trapping or not.

I'm not entirely sure how to respond to something as vague as this but I'll start off by addressing the fact that the statement relies on the assumption that diglett in a team is better at doing any job than any other 6 Pokemon in combination with another 5. This is not true. Diglett is better at trapping and KOing certain Pokemon than other Pokemon are. There is obviously no clear best combination of 6 Pokemon. It also seems as if it suggests that uncompetitiveness is not the concern of the post - it's brokeness. An equally skilled player test does not prove uncompetitiveness, it would prove brokeness. Not only that, it would not prove brokeness of trapping, it would prove the brokeness of Diglett (unless you also suggest that any team with any trapping Pokemon is better than any team without). As Blarajan said, the combination of the viability of Diglett and its ability, not "trapping" itself, are what makes it annoying.

So I would like to restate the point of my original post a few days ago: This would be a philosophy ban on subjective uncompetitiveness. The mere fact that it's being debated as a brokeness ban is evidence enough for me that people do not necessarily feel that philosophy is something they support (or feel "ok" supporting).
 

tcr

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so lets ban outrage ;)
i think thrash is a more pressing concern

In all seriousness though, the statement: "In all honesty if two players of equal skill meet on the ladder, one with diglett one without, the person with the trapping ability is going to win." is incredibly concerning if that's going to hold any weight in people's thoughts of whether to ban trapping or not.

I'm not entirely sure how to respond to something as vague as this but I'll start off by addressing the fact that the statement relies on the assumption that diglett in a team is better at doing any job than any other 6 Pokemon in combination with another 5. This is not true. Diglett is better at trapping and KOing certain Pokemon than other Pokemon are. There is obviously no clear best combination of 6 Pokemon. It also seems as if it suggests that uncompetitiveness is not the concern of the post - it's brokeness. An equally skilled player test does not prove uncompetitiveness, it would prove brokeness. Not only that, it would not prove brokeness of trapping, it would prove the brokeness of Diglett (unless you also suggest that any team with any trapping Pokemon is better than any team without). As Blarajan said, the combination of the viability of Diglett and its ability, not "trapping" itself, are what makes it annoying.
The point of that analogy was to simply provide an example and insight (idk if these are the correct words) into how simply having a trapping ability inherently can make a team better, due to its nature. Two equal players, two teams that neither are weak to each other (in any other scenario the battle would be decided by hax) yet one has something such as Diglett, and one does not; this scenario was meant to imply how Arena Trap is just such a good ability that if you actually play it half-decently it gives you a massive advantage, be it trapping a chinchou, or trapping a weakened slowpoke, kiling a low health foongus so it doesnt just regen health, etc etc. It wasn't really meant to be taken into such depth, that Diglett is simply a much better teammate than the rest of the team. It's not. The analogy(?) was meant to just imply that simmply having a trapper mon can give you a huge advantage, and obviously this deviates by introducing variables, like others' skills, a different team, any hax involved, etc.

I guess in a sense (responding to the bolded) I am saying that a team that utilizes a trapping mon is inherently a better team to play than one without, provided that the mon in question wasn't just stuck as the 6th mon bc "lol free win." Due to Arena Trap's / Shadow Tag's nature, its ability to target and get rid of an inherent nature of battling at its core, it gives you an extreme advantage if you play it right. Broken? Possibly. Perfectly fine? Again its subjective. I was playing devil's advocate in an attempt to spur discussion. I personally think that in a sense, trapping abilities are broken, because they remove a key aspect of battling, but I do not think they are unhealthy, and actually promote free thinking and force your opponent to think around it.
 

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Here's what always gets me: So trapping is supposed to be broken. In concept, it totally is. However, looking at it from the perspective of LC, none of the trappers are A+ or S, which if they were, I would be concerned. So is trapping really that broken, or is it the Pokemon's natural traits that make it so? I would think the latter. I think we've seen trapping discussions in pretty much every other meta so I really don't feel as though it's necessary to debate that. We know by now that while trapping is pretty dumb, it's the Pokemon that pushes it over the edge. Is that happening in our case? Well clearly not, because I don't see the trappers dominating the meta by any means.
 

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I don't see how having a trapping Pokemon on your team inherently makes it better. Diglett and Gothita require much more support than their level 100 tier counterparts, stemming mainly from just how weak they are. Take Mega-Gengar, it's the threat that it is because it can come in after mega evolving and OHKO pretty much any target you need dead with that base 170 Special Attack stat. Diglett and Gothita cannot do that, sometimes not even against Pokemon weak to their attacks. They need prior damage, Knock Off support, Defog/Rapid Spin in the case of Diglett, and a team based around taking advantage of their strengths. Other trappers need much less than that, if anything, to be effective. There's more than one way to execute a trapping strategy than "come in and OHKO the opponent while they can't switch," of course; Diglett has Memento and Gothita has passable bulk with Eviolite and investment so that it can rely on 2HKOes rather than OHKOes. That said, it's much more effective, and much more uncompetitive, to be able to just waltz in and pick up a free KO on anything squishy just for existing, rather than sacrificing yourself to halve their attacking stats with no effect on defenses, or be forced to take a hit because you can't hit hard enough.
 
If you replaced Diglett on your team with Trapinch, would it be as good? No, because Trapinch, even with Arena Trap, fucking sucks. The problem is not "trapping." It's Diglett, the fastest Pokemon in the tier with the best ability and great STAB and support potential. If Diglett is broken it is because Diglett is broken, not because trapping abilities are broken. I definitely do not think they are; I think Pokemon with them are.
 
If two equally skilled players meet on the ladder, one with Diglett, one without, then the one who outplays the other will win. I honestly don't see how you can see it any differently. Diglett is strong because of the reasons blarajan listed, but again, having Diglett does not automatically mean you're going to get good value traps and mementos. I'd honestly argue that Diglett is more competitive than Murkrow or Misdreavus where you just pressed Brave Bird or Nasty Plot/spam specs Shadow ball to win, because at least Diglett requires huge amounts of planning and outplaying for both parties to play around.
 

tcr

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If you replaced Diglett on your team with Trapinch, would it be as good? No, because Trapinch, even with Arena Trap, fucking sucks. The problem is not "trapping." It's Diglett, the fastest Pokemon in the tier with the best ability and great STAB and support potential. If Diglett is broken it is because Diglett is broken, not because trapping abilities are broken. I definitely do not think they are; I think Pokemon with them are.
Uhhh the problem most certainly is "trapping," if we consider it a problem to begin with. Diglett is absolutely nothing without Arena Trap, Gothita wouldn't even be considered if it didn't have Shadow Tag. If you replaced Diglett with trapinch on your team you would be using a clearly outclassed in every aspect pokemon, something I hoped that our playerbase would be smart enough to avoid using as an example due to its inherent flaws as an argument. Might as well bring up Foongus when talking about Tangela, or to a lesser extent Gastly when talking about a super fast Ghost type compared to Misdreavus. The Pokemon in question is clearly outclassed, yet simply because of how Arena Trap gets rid of switching, it gives you a natural advantage. This is offset by trapinch being complete trash. Are you seriously implying that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with an ability that takes away a key aspect of battling? The point, that absolutely none of you are getting, is that trapping abilities give you a natural advantage, even with a shitty mon like trapinch. You get rid of their ability to switch from time to time, thus limiting your opponents freedom. This has zero to do with how strong Diglett and Gothita are and everything to do with how trapping abilities as a whole are. Yeah you need "support" for Diglett in the same way you need support for every Pokemon. There is quite literally no scenario where a Pokemon can just come in, and proceed to 6-0 from 100-0 every single Pokemon, provided each team is sound. No, you need hazard control, knock off support, and pre-weakened opponents to finish a sweep. Support Digletts entire job is to slowly pick off the opponent, be it a 100% health Pawniard, or a 30-40% health Slowpoke. It doesn't need to 100/0 every Pokemon, its purpose is to control the flow of battle. Trapinch does the same, Gothita does the same, Wynaut does the same, thats the point of trapping abilities. You force your opponent into doing one thing, giving you a natural advantage.
If two equally skilled players meet on the ladder, one with Diglett, one without, then the one who outplays the other will win. I honestly don't see how you can see it any differently. Diglett is strong because of the reasons blarajan listed, but again, having Diglett does not automatically mean you're going to get good value traps and mementos. I'd honestly argue that Diglett is more competitive than Murkrow or Misdreavus where you just pressed Brave Bird or Nasty Plot/spam specs Shadow ball to win, because at least Diglett requires huge amounts of planning and outplaying for both parties to play around.
Its like you didn't even try to read. Equally skilled players means that neither one will outplay each other. Both will play the correct move at the correct time. Think of it like the "Counter that Pokemon" thread, you assume your opponent will always read whatever you do, throwing prediction right out the window. Is this scenario unrealistic? yes. Deal with it for example purposes. Honestly I cannot understand what is soo hard to grasp about this.
 
I'm not gonna do a big post and shit because these posts have 60% of their content overlooked just to suit ones purpose in a reply. But in LC's case, unlike whats going on in ubers, generally diglett is gonna be an issue, unlike goth, sure goth can try to trap mons, but really this tier is heavy volturn right now and its weak as shit, though one issue I have with people arguing with it needing knock off support makes it worse, knock off support isn't hard to come by and a lot of mons want it. I digress though, point is it traps a select few of mons, in very specific ways, scarf is the only good set for goth imo, as defensive is too slow for the most used foo and can't OHKO defensive foo anyway. Foongus loses to defensive with bj which is a good niche but eh, also I've tested sub calm mind a lot before, and its really underwhelming and can't really set up on foongus/other defensive mons. Diglett is the main perpetrator as blara said and deserves the suspect unlike goth and shit like trapinch which are too niche and matchup reliant beyond all hell. wynaut is a little different but RKing isn't hard to come back so encore shenanigans isn't much, and wynaut is a lot more vulnerable than goth, except it takes on foongus a little better.
EDIT: Forgot to cover diglett, derp.
Diglett was meant to abuse the ability along with its evo, and gamefreak did a decent job at allowing it to accomplish a goal while not seeming to powerful. But gen 6 in its current state for LC helped it out big time. Fletchling and the prior bans made steels/rocks incredibly important for handling this threat, and bar archen and honedge, diglett can slay majority of them with a sash (which is the superior set) since spinning/defogging isn't hard at all (screw pawniard literally all defoggers bar skunky and nail it). Back to diglett, blazing 20 speed tier helps it big time, not to mention decent priority in sucker punch. Stab EQ is awesome and rock slide does its job nicely if needed.Recently I've been running adamant since 20 isn't that important for me, and the extra power has helped. Will put up calcs later. Lastly diglett's safety line with sash and power with LO makes it difficult to really handle this guy, whether you have an easy to trap mon or not, this guy can kill something any game, or get up SR/memento for a sweep.
 
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Uhhh the problem most certainly is "trapping," if we consider it a problem to begin with. Diglett is absolutely nothing without Arena Trap, Gothita wouldn't even be considered if it didn't have Shadow Tag. If you replaced Diglett with trapinch on your team you would be using a clearly outclassed in every aspect pokemon, something I hoped that our playerbase would be smart enough to avoid using as an example due to its inherent flaws as an argument. Might as well bring up Foongus when talking about Tangela, or to a lesser extent Gastly when talking about a super fast Ghost type compared to Misdreavus. The Pokemon in question is clearly outclassed, yet simply because of how Arena Trap gets rid of switching, it gives you a natural advantage. This is offset by trapinch being complete trash. Are you seriously implying that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with an ability that takes away a key aspect of battling? The point, that absolutely none of you are getting, is that trapping abilities give you a natural advantage, even with a shitty mon like trapinch. You get rid of their ability to switch from time to time, thus limiting your opponents freedom. This has zero to do with how strong Diglett and Gothita are and everything to do with how trapping abilities as a whole are. Yeah you need "support" for Diglett in the same way you need support for every Pokemon. There is quite literally no scenario where a Pokemon can just come in, and proceed to 6-0 from 100-0 every single Pokemon, provided each team is sound. No, you need hazard control, knock off support, and pre-weakened opponents to finish a sweep. Support Digletts entire job is to slowly pick off the opponent, be it a 100% health Pawniard, or a 30-40% health Slowpoke. It doesn't need to 100/0 every Pokemon, its purpose is to control the flow of battle. Trapinch does the same, Gothita does the same, Wynaut does the same, thats the point of trapping abilities. You force your opponent into doing one thing, giving you a natural advantage.

Its like you didn't even try to read. Equally skilled players means that neither one will outplay each other. Both will play the correct move at the correct time. Think of it like the "Counter that Pokemon" thread, you assume your opponent will always read whatever you do, throwing prediction right out the window. Is this scenario unrealistic? yes. Deal with it for example purposes. Honestly I cannot understand what is soo hard to grasp about this.
Slowpoke and Foongus and Mienfoo get free HP when you switch out, and gets rid of the ability for the opponent to whittle them down. No shit, that's their ability. Most abilities tend to give advantages, it's good that you noticed. Your entire argument is simply "It gets rid of switching, it automatically provides an inherent advantage". Yeah, no that's not how it works.

If you use Trapinch, you don't have an inherent advantage because you can trap. You're at an inherent disadvantage because you're using a shitty Pokemon. I dunno, I really can't take your argument seriously when you say Trapinch gives you an advantage just because you can trap lol
 
I'm just gonna drop my thoughts on trapping here (because I just did so in the Ubers thread and I'm feeling in the zone right now). Trapping lends itself to becoming broken (notice I didn't say it is outright broken). Switching is a vital component to any form of singles metagame, and taking that away for little opportunity cost (can't use another ability, basically) is a big advantage. However, trapping is not uncompetitive. It still has to be employed in a skillful manner and it also requires correct timing to use effectively. This varies from other forms of what is considered uncompetitive, such as PanksterSwag and Spore spam. I would not be in favor of a blanket Shadow Tag ban, personally. ST/AT on things with below average stats (think Wynaut, Trapinch) is not really broken. Let's not kid ourselves. However, ST/AT becomes potentially broken on something with merely average stats (think Diglett, little Goth). Therefore, I believe if we were to move in a suspect direction on any kind of trapping, we should focus on the individual abusers and offenders and not the ability itself, and it should be because ST/AT makes those particular things broken, not because trapping in general is uncompetitive.
 
I'm just gonna drop my thoughts on trapping here (because I just did so in the Ubers thread and I'm feeling in the zone right now). Trapping lends itself to becoming broken (notice I didn't say it is outright broken). Switching is a vital component to any form of singles metagame, and taking that away for little opportunity cost (can't use another ability, basically) is a big advantage. However, trapping is not uncompetitive. It still has to be employed in a skillful manner and it also requires correct timing to use effectively. This varies from other forms of what is considered uncompetitive, such as PanksterSwag and Spore spam. I would not be in favor of a blanket Shadow Tag ban, personally. ST/AT on things with below average stats (think Wynaut, Trapinch) is not really broken. Let's not kid ourselves. However, ST/AT becomes potentially broken on something with merely average stats (think Diglett, little Goth). Therefore, I believe if we were to move in a suspect direction on any kind of trapping, we should focus on the individual abusers and offenders and not the ability itself, and it should be because ST/AT makes those particular things broken, not because trapping in general is uncompetitive.
This, now I may have sounded a little pro suspect for diglett and leaning towards ban, but if it was a suspect I'd come into it opposing a ban. Before I continue though, remember we aren't talking about competitiveness only, it can be broken since LC isn't a banlist, LC ubers is. Anyway, looking at arena trap, I mean its all about risk vs reward and looking ahead in the sense of dealing with it. It comes down to what mon you need to keep as the game goes on, if a mon is expandable eventually then you can play aggressive, or even if it isn't at the moment, diglet's inability to really stop much counter strikes using it as momentum aside from memento (which is basically using aggressiveness to force it to sack itself thus stopping it). Its a deterrent at the core, nothing more nothing less, it either makes you play safe, aggressive, or think of a way to lure it, cause once you get diglett off its home field, its at a huge disadvantage. Also there's the case of the 5-6 position you are in from the start, maybe 4 if you are running zig diglett, which diglett isn't even that great to use for that anymore. Basically I'm open, yet not open at the same time to a suspect. Diglett, mienfoo,fletchling, sun. These are probably the most wanted suspects.
 
That's pretty cool though. Pancham is a nifty little guy already. His semi-unique combo of Mold Breaker + Circle Throw totally negates Magic Guard, meaning that Abra will take hazards damage if it gets shifted in. It's cool for breaking sashes, albeit a bit niche. It's still a decent mon in the meta rn, Knock Off will just increase its viability even further.
 
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