why are annoying and uncompetitive in the same sentenceNot being able to switch out can be really annoying and incompetitive
"Annoying" and "Uncompetitive" might seem very different in meaning that's true, but trapping can be described by both terms: The fact that that you can't switch out some Pokémon is annoying and how trapping abilities pretend switching which is one of the most important basis of competitive battling makes trapping uncompetitive. I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear in my post I thought the words are self explanator (Idk, maybe I didn't get your question).why are annoying and uncompetitive in the same sentence
Note: I'm neither for nor against the suspecting of either of these, I'm just throwing points out there.This is going to be a long post but bear with me.
Broken typically is something that is blatantly too strong, non-competitive like Swagger, or unhealthy for the meta. I'm wish I could let myself completely gloss over Gothita because I think the idea that it could ever be LC ubers is completely and utterly ridiculous and is giving me a tumor.
Gothita is mega weak and it provides no value for a team unless it can remove key threats for something else to sweep. After revenging/trapping, it's locked into a move (pretty sure Scarf Gothita is the only thing that people use right now) and with its fairly low 15/16 SpA and a relatively weak stab and coverage movepool, it temporarily hands over momentum over to your opponent even in the case of a successful revenge. Its potential is based far too much on the opposing player's team to be remotely close to broken.
It's important to mention that its an extremely predictable pick. For example, past suspects like Gligar, Meditite, Misdreavus, Murkrow, and Swirlix all had an element of surprise in their sets that prevented you from planning ahead on a set way to deal with them. Gothita however, is a dead giveaway of the set aside from a mystery Hidden Power and whether or not it has Trick. From looking at your opponent's other picks you can easily deduce their strategy as well. This means there are still healthy ways of building around Gothita and playing against it, which is fairly different from the past suspects I mentioned above.
I can however understand why Diglett is being discussed, even though I highly disagree. I can see that Diglett has the potential to give far too much value for a team, being able to trap+revenge something one or more times, and then being able to Memento on top of it whenever it's usefulness as a revenger has passed. However, I firmly believe that playing around Diglett with a well built team is within the capabilities of every remotely decent player. Keeping your mons healthy enough to keep Diglett from trapping and getting value is part of being a smart player. Keeping yourself healthy enough to not be one shot for free by the opposing laner in MOBAs, being aware of burst potential in Hearthstone, and understanding how pressuring pieces work in chess are all fairly analogous to understanding how to keep your opponent from getting free value from running Diglett.
On paper it may look like there's not much downside to running Diglett plus some sweepers that benefit from Diglett's trapping ability, but really you're creating a team that is heavily reliant on certain specific criteria. Your sweepers also now are partially dependent on Diglett to provide support, and Diglett is dependent on the 5 other Pokes to maintain momentum and force switches and trades that allow for Diglett to use its ability, and some of those 5 other Pokes may be highly dependent on Diglett (like a Zigazoon). It may sound like I'm talking out of my ass, but think about how little support a combination like Dig + Zig provides for the other 4 members of a team. Diglett isn't some magic penis head that sticks out of the ground, ensuring your sweepers have the time of their life.
tl;dr
Gothita is predictable which allows for a healthy counterplay. Diglett has an illusion of a strong pick but creates inconsistency and overall weaker synergy in a team as a whole, which is its payoff for its capability as a trapper.
Goth and Dig typically require Knock Off support and/ or Volt turn. It should not be trying to Ohio abra as most of the time Abra runs Sash. Obviously you are trying to trap weakened shot with Goth, not Holding them outright.LO Diglett can't OHKO bulky Chinchou without Stealth Rocks. Gothita can't OHKO Abra with Shadow Ball, or Timburr/Mienfoo with Psychic. So to me they're just mediocre revenge trappers who really only work consistently if your opponent has no fucking clue what they're doing.
so lets ban outrage ;)I dont think the point of people wanting Diglett or Gothita banned is because they are overpowered, or because they can revenge kill. As was talked in the Smogcast, prem originally brought this topic up to discuss how uncompetitive trapping is. As were his words, there are two things that you should ALWAYS be able to do in a match: use a move and switch, as this is the very most fundamental nature of battling. Trapping abilities take away that ability, essentially giving free leverage to a person with a trapping mon versus a person with a regular team (in this instance a regular team is standard bulky offense, not stall, not hyper offense). What the other player does determines who wins. In all honesty if two players of equal skill meet on the ladder, one with diglett one without, the person with the trapping ability is going to win. On the flip side, trapping abilities provide risks that the other player can play around, i.e. Through double switching and baiting and whatnot. For those concerned, my view is that while trapping may or may not be unhealthy to the metagame, it creates for interesting concepts at higher level play which promote thinking steps ahead, which is the entire point of a pokemon battle. I'm interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this, as we didnt talk a whole lot on this issue during the smogcast.
i think thrash is a more pressing concernso lets ban outrage ;)
The point of that analogy was to simply provide an example and insight (idk if these are the correct words) into how simply having a trapping ability inherently can make a team better, due to its nature. Two equal players, two teams that neither are weak to each other (in any other scenario the battle would be decided by hax) yet one has something such as Diglett, and one does not; this scenario was meant to imply how Arena Trap is just such a good ability that if you actually play it half-decently it gives you a massive advantage, be it trapping a chinchou, or trapping a weakened slowpoke, kiling a low health foongus so it doesnt just regen health, etc etc. It wasn't really meant to be taken into such depth, that Diglett is simply a much better teammate than the rest of the team. It's not. The analogy(?) was meant to just imply that simmply having a trapper mon can give you a huge advantage, and obviously this deviates by introducing variables, like others' skills, a different team, any hax involved, etc.In all seriousness though, the statement: "In all honesty if two players of equal skill meet on the ladder, one with diglett one without, the person with the trapping ability is going to win." is incredibly concerning if that's going to hold any weight in people's thoughts of whether to ban trapping or not.
I'm not entirely sure how to respond to something as vague as this but I'll start off by addressing the fact that the statement relies on the assumption that diglett in a team is better at doing any job than any other 6 Pokemon in combination with another 5. This is not true. Diglett is better at trapping and KOing certain Pokemon than other Pokemon are. There is obviously no clear best combination of 6 Pokemon. It also seems as if it suggests that uncompetitiveness is not the concern of the post - it's brokeness. An equally skilled player test does not prove uncompetitiveness, it would prove brokeness. Not only that, it would not prove brokeness of trapping, it would prove the brokeness of Diglett (unless you also suggest that any team with any trapping Pokemon is better than any team without). As Blarajan said, the combination of the viability of Diglett and its ability, not "trapping" itself, are what makes it annoying.
Uhhh the problem most certainly is "trapping," if we consider it a problem to begin with. Diglett is absolutely nothing without Arena Trap, Gothita wouldn't even be considered if it didn't have Shadow Tag. If you replaced Diglett with trapinch on your team you would be using a clearly outclassed in every aspect pokemon, something I hoped that our playerbase would be smart enough to avoid using as an example due to its inherent flaws as an argument. Might as well bring up Foongus when talking about Tangela, or to a lesser extent Gastly when talking about a super fast Ghost type compared to Misdreavus. The Pokemon in question is clearly outclassed, yet simply because of how Arena Trap gets rid of switching, it gives you a natural advantage. This is offset by trapinch being complete trash. Are you seriously implying that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with an ability that takes away a key aspect of battling? The point, that absolutely none of you are getting, is that trapping abilities give you a natural advantage, even with a shitty mon like trapinch. You get rid of their ability to switch from time to time, thus limiting your opponents freedom. This has zero to do with how strong Diglett and Gothita are and everything to do with how trapping abilities as a whole are. Yeah you need "support" for Diglett in the same way you need support for every Pokemon. There is quite literally no scenario where a Pokemon can just come in, and proceed to 6-0 from 100-0 every single Pokemon, provided each team is sound. No, you need hazard control, knock off support, and pre-weakened opponents to finish a sweep. Support Digletts entire job is to slowly pick off the opponent, be it a 100% health Pawniard, or a 30-40% health Slowpoke. It doesn't need to 100/0 every Pokemon, its purpose is to control the flow of battle. Trapinch does the same, Gothita does the same, Wynaut does the same, thats the point of trapping abilities. You force your opponent into doing one thing, giving you a natural advantage.If you replaced Diglett on your team with Trapinch, would it be as good? No, because Trapinch, even with Arena Trap, fucking sucks. The problem is not "trapping." It's Diglett, the fastest Pokemon in the tier with the best ability and great STAB and support potential. If Diglett is broken it is because Diglett is broken, not because trapping abilities are broken. I definitely do not think they are; I think Pokemon with them are.
Its like you didn't even try to read. Equally skilled players means that neither one will outplay each other. Both will play the correct move at the correct time. Think of it like the "Counter that Pokemon" thread, you assume your opponent will always read whatever you do, throwing prediction right out the window. Is this scenario unrealistic? yes. Deal with it for example purposes. Honestly I cannot understand what is soo hard to grasp about this.If two equally skilled players meet on the ladder, one with Diglett, one without, then the one who outplays the other will win. I honestly don't see how you can see it any differently. Diglett is strong because of the reasons blarajan listed, but again, having Diglett does not automatically mean you're going to get good value traps and mementos. I'd honestly argue that Diglett is more competitive than Murkrow or Misdreavus where you just pressed Brave Bird or Nasty Plot/spam specs Shadow ball to win, because at least Diglett requires huge amounts of planning and outplaying for both parties to play around.
Slowpoke and Foongus and Mienfoo get free HP when you switch out, and gets rid of the ability for the opponent to whittle them down. No shit, that's their ability. Most abilities tend to give advantages, it's good that you noticed. Your entire argument is simply "It gets rid of switching, it automatically provides an inherent advantage". Yeah, no that's not how it works.Uhhh the problem most certainly is "trapping," if we consider it a problem to begin with. Diglett is absolutely nothing without Arena Trap, Gothita wouldn't even be considered if it didn't have Shadow Tag. If you replaced Diglett with trapinch on your team you would be using a clearly outclassed in every aspect pokemon, something I hoped that our playerbase would be smart enough to avoid using as an example due to its inherent flaws as an argument. Might as well bring up Foongus when talking about Tangela, or to a lesser extent Gastly when talking about a super fast Ghost type compared to Misdreavus. The Pokemon in question is clearly outclassed, yet simply because of how Arena Trap gets rid of switching, it gives you a natural advantage. This is offset by trapinch being complete trash. Are you seriously implying that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with an ability that takes away a key aspect of battling? The point, that absolutely none of you are getting, is that trapping abilities give you a natural advantage, even with a shitty mon like trapinch. You get rid of their ability to switch from time to time, thus limiting your opponents freedom. This has zero to do with how strong Diglett and Gothita are and everything to do with how trapping abilities as a whole are. Yeah you need "support" for Diglett in the same way you need support for every Pokemon. There is quite literally no scenario where a Pokemon can just come in, and proceed to 6-0 from 100-0 every single Pokemon, provided each team is sound. No, you need hazard control, knock off support, and pre-weakened opponents to finish a sweep. Support Digletts entire job is to slowly pick off the opponent, be it a 100% health Pawniard, or a 30-40% health Slowpoke. It doesn't need to 100/0 every Pokemon, its purpose is to control the flow of battle. Trapinch does the same, Gothita does the same, Wynaut does the same, thats the point of trapping abilities. You force your opponent into doing one thing, giving you a natural advantage.
Its like you didn't even try to read. Equally skilled players means that neither one will outplay each other. Both will play the correct move at the correct time. Think of it like the "Counter that Pokemon" thread, you assume your opponent will always read whatever you do, throwing prediction right out the window. Is this scenario unrealistic? yes. Deal with it for example purposes. Honestly I cannot understand what is soo hard to grasp about this.
This, now I may have sounded a little pro suspect for diglett and leaning towards ban, but if it was a suspect I'd come into it opposing a ban. Before I continue though, remember we aren't talking about competitiveness only, it can be broken since LC isn't a banlist, LC ubers is. Anyway, looking at arena trap, I mean its all about risk vs reward and looking ahead in the sense of dealing with it. It comes down to what mon you need to keep as the game goes on, if a mon is expandable eventually then you can play aggressive, or even if it isn't at the moment, diglet's inability to really stop much counter strikes using it as momentum aside from memento (which is basically using aggressiveness to force it to sack itself thus stopping it). Its a deterrent at the core, nothing more nothing less, it either makes you play safe, aggressive, or think of a way to lure it, cause once you get diglett off its home field, its at a huge disadvantage. Also there's the case of the 5-6 position you are in from the start, maybe 4 if you are running zig diglett, which diglett isn't even that great to use for that anymore. Basically I'm open, yet not open at the same time to a suspect. Diglett, mienfoo,fletchling, sun. These are probably the most wanted suspects.I'm just gonna drop my thoughts on trapping here (because I just did so in the Ubers thread and I'm feeling in the zone right now). Trapping lends itself to becoming broken (notice I didn't say it is outright broken). Switching is a vital component to any form of singles metagame, and taking that away for little opportunity cost (can't use another ability, basically) is a big advantage. However, trapping is not uncompetitive. It still has to be employed in a skillful manner and it also requires correct timing to use effectively. This varies from other forms of what is considered uncompetitive, such as PanksterSwag and Spore spam. I would not be in favor of a blanket Shadow Tag ban, personally. ST/AT on things with below average stats (think Wynaut, Trapinch) is not really broken. Let's not kid ourselves. However, ST/AT becomes potentially broken on something with merely average stats (think Diglett, little Goth). Therefore, I believe if we were to move in a suspect direction on any kind of trapping, we should focus on the individual abusers and offenders and not the ability itself, and it should be because ST/AT makes those particular things broken, not because trapping in general is uncompetitive.