Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[HolyAvatar]

If that's what its main purpose is, then, are you not better off running something that helps do some actual damage, like specs, rather than something that pretty much helps nothing, like leftovers?

I'm using Lanturn a lot at the moment and despite my words here, I do quite like it (especially as I do actually have an electric weakness elsewhere). But in practice, I'm finding specs waaaay better than lefties. A specs pivot hits hard enough to put a lot of things in kill range for what comes in next. Without specs, it's like I needn't have bothered hitting it at all.

I find that with specs you're giving one his traits that actually give it a niche: heal bell.
Heal bell is so good for bulky offense or simply when you pack something like AV azumarill. It can now actually try to switch into scalds with much less risk of becoming useless for the rest of the game.
I don't know if it is C worthy though. Depends on the team, I guess and a slow volt switch is not always bad as it lets you bring in frail things like greninja without a sack.

On a side note, with all the scar lando-t running around, I found that scarf rotom-w makes for a nice surprise (also applies to greninja, keldeo, terrakion and mega pinsir). It also doesn't care about priority T-wave so that's a huge plus for a scarfer.

 

[kabbes]

I find that with specs you're giving one his traits that actually give it a niche: heal bell.
Heal bell is so good for bulky offense or simply when you pack something like AV azumarill. It can now actually try to switch into scalds with much less risk of becoming useless for the rest of the game.

True. Even the electric plate (or whatever that item is called) will be more useful than healing 6% though, if that's what you want. Leftovers just doesn't help longevity at all for Lanturn in OU. Or at least, that's what I have found.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

If that's what its main purpose is, then, are you not better off running something that helps do some actual damage, like specs, rather than something that pretty much helps nothing, like leftovers?

I'm using Lanturn a lot at the moment and despite my words here, I do quite like it (especially as I do actually have an electric weakness elsewhere). But in practice, I'm finding specs waaaay better than lefties. A specs pivot hits hard enough to put a lot of things in kill range for what comes in next. Without specs, it's like I needn't have bothered hitting it at all.

The thing is, theres not much of a reason to use specs over the lefties set. If the problem is electric types, there are better pokes that can abuse the role of a volt switch stopper + special damage dealer. His role is something nothing else can do. Stop volt switch abuse, and support with heal bell. Something rotom can't do. Putting specs on it is just asking for a better special attacker to take its place. Its role is a situational one, but it's good at performing it. Specs Lanturn doesn't have much of a place in OU when its heal bell set works best in this environment.

 

[kabbes]

The thing is, theres not much of a reason to use specs over the lefties set. If the problem is electric types, there are better pokes that can abuse the role of a volt switch stopper + special damage dealer. His role is something nothing else can do. Stop volt switch abuse, and support with heal bell. Something rotom can't do. Putting specs on it is just asking for a better special attacker to take its place. Its role is a situational one, but it's good at performing it. Specs Lanturn doesn't have much of a place in OU when its heal bell set works best in this environment.

I'm not sure if I explained myself properly. I'm suggesting you stick with the heal bell defensive pivot set, but simply stick something other than leftovers on it, because in practice the leftovers themselves don't actually seem to achieve anything. I have found that some specs work surprisingly well, creating some actual damage in the switch. But you could run something else instead (lum berry?) if that works for you. Just because something is fat, doesn't mean leftovers must be the best item choice, basically. You have to look at what the item practically achieves.

It's a minor point, mind. I still come back to C- as a reasonable rating. That puts it level with Rotom-H, which is another strong situational pivot.

 

[Taliheim]

Okay, you say that Lefties isn't worth it on it. Care to explain why?

in all honesty, any defensively-oriented mon without reliable recovery should carry Lefties (Volt Absorb is not reliable) - it just increases its longevity too much to pass up. It doesn't seem like much, but it certainly adds up. Also, Lanturn has 0 offensive presence so why try to give him some? all of his moves could deal 1 damage and he'll still do his job just as well.

 

[kabbes]

I did explain it earlier. If Lanturn gets hit neutrally, it's just not lasting more than 3 or 4 attacks. Lefties makes no odds to that. It has no recovery, remember, which is what you normally look for in a defensive mon. Lefties alone won't recover it to any particularly useful level. It's defensive, but it's no wall.

As a slow pivot, you are look for an ability to take a hit and pivot out preferably with some damage done. With specs, Lanturn often does *just* enough damage to put the opponent into kill range. This is useful.

 

[Alfalfa]

I did explain it earlier. If Lanturn gets hit neutrally, it's just not lasting more than 3 or 4 attacks. Lefties makes no odds to that. It has no recovery, remember, which is what you normally look for in a defensive mon. Lefties alone won't recover it to any particularly useful level. It's defensive, but it's no wall.

As a slow pivot, you are look for an ability to take a hit and pivot out preferably with some damage done. With specs, Lanturn often does *just* enough damage to put the opponent into kill range. This is useful.

Okay, you say that Lefties isn't worth it on it. Care to explain why?

in all honesty, any defensively-oriented mon without reliable recovery should carry Lefties (Volt Absorb is not reliable) - it just increases its longevity too much to pass up. It doesn't seem like much, but it certainly adds up. Also, Lanturn has 0 offensive presence so why try to give him some? all of his moves could deal 1 damage and he'll still do his job just as well.

I think you are over-thinking it a bit kabbes. Volt Absorb + Heal Bell is a viable niche. Trying to force Lanturn to have offensive presence is stressing its niche too much. Again, it lacks recovery, that is why it is C Rank and not higher. Do not over-think it.

 

[Bice]

Erm, I feel Greninja needs to go back to A+. Although Protean and versatility is nice, its super frail, and weak to priority,namely Talonflame. And its few priority moves are not all that strong. Fairies, namely Sylveon, can also wall it, although they dislike waterfall.
On the other hand, I am nominating Mega venusaur for S rank. Mega Venusaur is very well balanced, and while it lacks protean no shit sherlock, it does have a fantastic ability in the form of Thick Fat. It is also very versatile, and, like I said, has well balanced stats, so it can pull off offense or defense. When Good bulk, good offenses, and good defensive typing and ability combined, it is very hard to counter.

 

[pwnémon]

Hey guys, I have a nomination that I feel merits discussion and is definitely worthy of the S ranking,

Talonflame from A+->S. First and foremost, Talonflame is one of the most reliable revenge killers in the metagame, capable of OHKOing many offensive pokemon neutral to Brave Bird after hazard damage with a Choice Band. It's Jolly Sharp Beak and Jolly Natural Gift Swords Dance are also very effective at cleaning up weakened teams, with natural gift able to lure and beat common checks to Talonflame such as rotom's, t-tar and heatran. The rise of Talonflame's stall breaker set and Bulk up sets allow it to fit on any playstyle and it fulfills these roles reliably and can use threatening wall/stall breakers such as Zard Y and Mew as set up fodder with taunt+bulk up or cripple its offensive checks such as lando-t and ttar with will o wisp. Talonflame does require Defog/Spin support to switch in but reliable users of these are common and effective at these roles such as Lati's with roost and Reflect type Starmie.

 

[Alfalfa]

Hey guys, I have a nomination that I feel merits discussion and is definitely worthy of the S ranking,

Talonflame from A+->S. First and foremost, Talonflame is one of the most reliable revenge killers in the metagame, capable of OHKOing many offensive pokemon neutral to Brave Bird after hazard damage with a Choice Band. It's Jolly Sharp Beak and Jolly Natural Gift Swords Dance are also very effective at cleaning up weakened teams, with natural gift able to lure and beat common checks to Talonflame such as rotom's, t-tar and heatran. The rise of Talonflame's stall breaker set and Bulk up sets allow it to fit on any playstyle and it fulfills these roles reliably and can use threatening wall/stall breakers such as Zard Y and Mew as set up fodder with taunt+bulk up or cripple its offensive checks such as lando-t and ttar with will o wisp. Talonflame does require Defog/Spin support to switch in but reliable users of these are common and effective at these roles such as Lati's with roost and Reflect type Starmie.

Talonflame is not going to S Rank. While it has just enough power with Choice Band to beat most offensive Pokemon, base 81 Attack is not enough to break through its defensive checks, such as Slowbro, Heatran, and the like. Specially Defensive Talonflame is nice, but it is not as effective of a revenge killer as the Banded set because it is inclined towards beating stallbreaker Mew, as well as annoying stall in general. But another huge issue is its lack of bulk, and the fact that it has the defenses of a wet paper bag when uninvested, as well as a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock that severely inhibit its ability to come in safely. Keep Talonflame at A+ Rank.

 

[pwnémon]

Talonflame is not going to S Rank. While it has just enough power with Choice Band to beat most offensive Pokemon, base 81 Attack is not enough to break through its defensive checks, such as Slowbro, Heatran, and the like. Specially Defensive Talonflame is nice, but it is not as effective of a revenge killer as the Banded set because it is inclined towards beating stallbreaker Mew, as well as annoying stall in general. But another huge issue is its lack of bulk, and the fact that it has the defenses of a wet paper bag when uninvested, as well as a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock that severely inhibit its ability to come in safely. Keep Talonflame at A+ Rank.

I don't think having no bulk when uninvested is as much as problem as you stated (although it is frail) given its speed and priority allow it to strike first against everything w/out Espeed and Mega Aerodactyl, Slowbro counters all its sets fair point. But Bulk up and Stall breaker Talonflames main role is not to revenge kill it is to beat stall and clean up weakened teams which it is very capable of doing when the bulky water is weakened, it can also run itemless acrobatics if recoil stalling is a problem. Also SR hasn't prevented stealth rock from being S rank and hazard removal isn't that hard this meta.

 

[BetaDjinn]

As big of a fan as I am of Talonflame, I still think it is a top A+ pokemon but not quite S, even with the S tier standards being lowered as of late. Talonflame's biggest issue is that it still pretty much gets walled by the same stuff no matter what set it's running. Pretty much every rock and electric type in OU can force it out. Add Heatran to that list and it's just not hard to have a Talonflame check on your team. The other glaring weakness, which ties in with the Stealth Rock weakness, is the fact that Talonflame cannot wear down its own checks. The bird simply goes down too quickly, thus requiring a lot of support.

Even with all of these drawbacks, Talonflame still has huge upside (high speed tier, strongest priority in OU with great neutral coverage). To me this cements it as a great A+ 'mon, but it has too many drawbacks to crack S.

 

[bb skarm]

Natural Gift's a thing? TBH I would rather run band or Sharp Beak.

Natural Gift is viable to hit TTar and Heatran, albeit situational :p

Anyways, Talonflame CAN'T go to S. It would just hurt my eyes. Talonflame's SR weakness is way to exploitable, and if you slap a Tyranitar on your team (doesn't die to fighting natural gift lol wtf) you basically check, same with Heatran. Talonflame also kinda wears itself down within a match, so if you're basically spamming either of Talon's STABs, it's going to die. It's a great Pokemon, but never have I had trouble with it on a team. It's too susceptible to being worn down, and its 81 Attack stat is aggressively mediocre, even with boosts.

Will write more later.

 

[pwnémon]

Natural Gift is viable to hit TTar and Heatran, albeit situational :p

Anyways, Talonflame CAN'T go to S. It would just hurt my eyes. Talonflame's SR weakness is way to exploitable, and if you slap a Tyranitar on your team (doesn't die to fighting natural gift lol wtf) you basically check, same with Heatran. Talonflame also kinda wears itself down within a match, so if you're basically spamming either of Talon's STABs, it's going to die. It's a great Pokemon, but never have I had trouble with it on a team. It's too susceptible to being worn down, and its 81 Attack stat is aggressively mediocre, even with boosts.

Will write more later.

Yeah I agree with a lot of that (weak unboosted, worn down) but Talonflames counters are easy as hell to spot (ttar, heatran) and easy to take advantage of, neither of the afforemated have reliable recovery which makes wearing them not too difficult.

 

[totoTavros]

Given that Tflame's counters are according to casectiv, Heatran and Tyranitar, wouldn't Dugtrio make for a perfect partner to come in on a U-Turn from Talon?

 

[Celticpride]

Erm, I feel Greninja needs to go back to A+. Although Protean and versatility is nice, its super frail, and weak to priority,namely Talonflame. And its few priority moves are not all that strong. Fairies, namely Sylveon, can also wall it, although they dislike waterfall.
On the other hand, I am nominating Mega venusaur for S rank. Mega Venusaur is very well balanced, and while it lacks protean no shit sherlock, it does have a fantastic ability in the form of Thick Fat. It is also very versatile, and, like I said, has well balanced stats, so it can pull off offense or defense. When Good bulk, good offenses, and good defensive typing and ability combined, it is very hard to counter.

I wouldn't say Mega Venusaur is hard to counter. If anything, the meta is over-prepared for it. There's also not a whole lot that it outright walls.

• Char-X: Flare Blitz 2HKOs
• Greninja: Extrasensory 2HKOs
• Keldeo: HP Flying means that Venu can always switch-in
• Latios: Psyshock
• Heatran: Wins unless Venu has EQ
• Gengar: Loses even with offensive HP Fire
• Lando-I: Psychic (or even Earth Power) beats it
• Exca: Almost always beats Venu, but Sand kills it's recovery
  
• Char-Y: Loses to Fire Blast
• Gardevoir: Loses to Psyshock
• Lando-T: It's close, Giga Drain may allow Venu to BS past it
• Mega Heracross: SL Pin Missile 2HKOs unboosted, done at +2
• Mega Scizor: Beats Mega Scizor with HP Fire, but Bug Bite and Bullet Punch beat it at +2
• Mega Pinsir: Always beats it
• Talonflame: Always beats it
• Thundy-I: HP Flying 2HKOs, but Thundy doesn't always carry that
• Latias: beats it with Psyshock
• Dragonite: CB or +1 Outrage beats Venu
• Mega Tyranitar: Usually beats Venu, auto-Sand kills Venu recovery
• Medicham: Zen Headbutt 2HKOs

*All calcs were done with Physically Defensive Mega Venu, except those that would seem to be weak to HP Fire, then the Tank/Offensive set was used.

That's just S-Rank, A+ Rank,and some A Rank Pokemon. There are other things in the lower ranks that are also more than capable of beating it. Victini, Mega Zam, Mega Aero, Staraptor, Starmie and Psychic Manaphy all beat it as well. Mega Venu is very good and checks a lot of things, but almost every team has at least two things that can break past it with fairly common movesets. It's fine where it is in A+ rank.

Also, Talon has a lot of full stops in the meta. Rotom-W, Heatran, Tyranitar and Rhyperior all full stop it, and there are a decent amount of solid checks out there. Natural Gift is not good, even then one berry doesn't cover every threat that walls it. You also lose out on the extra power from CB or Sharp Beak. I also think SD Natural Gift is inferior to regular SD Talon. Brave Bird/Flare Blitz/SD/Roost Talon set-ups on Stallbreaker Mew, the fear of losing your berry (and therefore making NG a dead moveslot) and losing out on Roost kills that opportunity. I feel that the meta has adapted nicely to Talonflame, every team carries either a full stop and check to Talon, or multiple checks to Talon. There's also SR, either you are at 50% health or give a free switch-in by Roosting after Talon is switched in. It has enough drawbacks to stay in A+ Rank. This is also where the whole "what kind of people does this thread cater to" thing comes into play imo, CB Talon and either Terrakion or Keldeo can get you to 1500 on the ladder with little effort.

Additional fun Talon calc that's pretty much irrelevant:

+2 252 Atk Liechi Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 315-372 (74.2 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[alexwolf]

Update time:

Hippowdon: A ---> B+
Tyranitar: A ---> A- (only the Scarf set may be worthy of A rank from my experience, not sure, but it's a very nice set)
Mega Garchomp: B ---> B-
Bisharp: A ---> A+
Starmie stays in B+
Mega Ampharos stays in B-
Garchomp: A ---> A+
Ferrothorn stays in A
Magnezone stays in A-
Landorus-T stays in A+
Avalugg stays unranked
Empoleon: C+ ---> B-
Mega Houndoom: C+ ---> B-
Mantine is removed from the list
Granbull is removed from the list

Reasoning

Hippowdon dropped because the meta is not to kind to it. The things it walls/checks are becoming less relevant and the things it can't wall/check are becoming more relevant. Also, passive as fuck and gives free turns in order to keep itself healthy and able to deal with the Pokemon you need it to.

Tyranitar dropped because sand offense isn't the face of the meta like it was before and Tyranitar is bait for a lot of threatening mons that can come in on it. It suffers from 4mss in regards to its smooth rock set as well. It can beat Lati@s and its Scarf set is its better set, but even then it can be set up on if it locks itself into a move that the opponent can take advantage of, which happens really often.

Mega Garchomp dropped to B- because of its huge opportunity cost and competition with better wallbreakers and sand abusers, such as Mega Heracross, Mega Gardevoir, and Excadrill. It's a solid Pokemon on itself, but in a metagame fiddled with strong MEvo wallbreakers and Excadrills it is really hard to find a teamslot for it.

Starmie stays in B+ because it has many faults as a ''bulky'' Water-type. Its defensive set isn't even an effective Specs Keldeo answer as people mentioned. You would need to get Keldeo burned with your own scald to stall it out since if it uses Scald on the switch and burns you, it 2HKOes and can stall you out or force you to switch. It's outclassed as an offensive and bulky Water-type and all it has going for it is spin, which is good enough for B+ but not more.

Mega Ampharos stays in B- because its role in the metagame hasn't changed at all. It's still a decent cleaner on rain teams with an Agility set, and it's still a solid pivot that checks many Pokemon but faces a ton of competition for a teamslot, so there is no reason for it to move up.

Ferrothorn stays A despite people arguing that a rise in Magnezone is the only reason as to why it dropped. People are neglecting the fact that Lati@s runs HP fire, Azumarill runs Superpower, Greninja runs Hidden Power Fire, etc. more commonly now. Its presence itself is somewhat centralizing, and the metagame is adapting in response to it.

Landorus-T's Scarf set is no doubt one of if not its best set but not worthy enough of S rank, we have been this over and over again and it's getting somewhat repetitive.

Avalugg stays unranked because i didn't receive positive feedback for it from anyone in the ranking team.

Anything else was agreed on by everyone here i think, so no need to explain further. The above reasoning was mostly made by ben gay, with a few touches of mine here and there.

Changes to discuss:

C and D ranks, especially the changes below
Conkeldurr to C+
Entei to C+
Infernape to C
Toxicroak to C+
Mega Absol to C-
Volcarona to C-
Seismitoad to C- / C
Lucario to B
Alomomola to B
Mega Tyranitar to A-

And before everyone starts talking shit about Seismitoad being nominated for a raise even though most people want it unranked, read this:

Seismitoad to C or C+ can someone please elaborate as to why seismitoad isn't being considered as a sr setter like empoleon over a ss sweeper? it has the same qualities that lanturn has(despite not being an as shaky gren switch-in) in walling electrics with the added benefit of a water immunity. this allows it to be a great check to rain offense and bulky waters, both of which prove to be an annoyance to offensive teams. a set of sr/scald/eq or epower/toxic or knock off is a simple yet effective way to abuse its defensive capabilities. also yeah, hopefully by ranking this will that swampert argument desist.

And this:

and seismitoad is really cool on paper just because it absolutely destroys kingdra just spamming water moves and anything kabutops can do which is pretty fucking cool with rain getting more attention again never used it but yea it sounds alright FUCK RAIN. thats all.

 

[FatBagel]

Mega Tyranitar - I agree with the drop. It really struggles with sweeping even at +1 in my experience. It either relies on Stone Edge, with it's tendency to miss when you need it, or Crunch with it's mediocre SE coverage. With Crunch/EQ/Ice Punch it struggles against Fighting types such as Keldeo, and struggles massively against Ferrothorn or Skarmory, Mega Hera kills him too. It's nowhere near reliable enough in my opinion for an A rank pokemon, especially given the opportunity cost.

Mega Absol - I actually don't think Absol should drop. The opportunity cost is huge, but Absol is a very dangerous sweeper at +2. Knock Off/Sucker Punch murder most things that don't resist it, and Sucker Punch is reliable due to Magic Bounce. Fire Blast lets it beat steel types that wall it most the time and Absol has a lot of different moves to cover different threats. It's speed and utility give it a niche over Bisharp, but it's frail. Absol can set up on most walls in the tier and threaten a lot of pokemon so I think it's notably better than all the pokemon in C-.

 

[Baharoth]

I will just quote myself here regarding Entei

Id like to suggest Entei for a promotion to either B or even B+. I ve been using the CB set alot lately and come to think that its far more effektive than its B- ranking indicates.
It can act as a wallbreaker and revengekiller/lategamecleaner in one mon with its powerful stab and Extremespeed while also providing invaluable utility by spreading burns among the opponents team. With SR up, CB Sacred Fire packs enough power to break most physical walls in the meta, especially if the burn triggers. Because of the burn chance its very unpleasant to switch into it in general. As even things that resist it and dont take too much damage because of that, have a good chance of getting burned and therefor crippled. Virtually the only thing that can switch into Sacred Fire without worries is Heatran and he is nailed by Stone Edge/Bulldoze. On the other hand its Extreme Speed is powerful enough to revengekill common offensive threats after some prior damage, due to its high priority it also circumvates other priority users like Thundurs T-wave and Talonflames Bravebird. Its also decently bulky and gets some useful resists from its typing like steel, fire, bug and fairy so it can take a hit or two if needed.

Virtually its only problem is its SR weakness which hinders its ability to come in multiple times during a match so hazard support is required to use it to its full extent. I guess one could say that its predictable but given that Sacred Fire hits almost everything for massive damage and cripples everything else, it doesnt help the opponent at all to know whats coming.
Thats also the reason why it doesnt mind beeing choice locked all that much, even more than Keldeo with Scald its fine with just spamming its stabmove, the only occasion where at least some prediction is required is when Heatran is on the opposing team and even then your usually fine of with either double switching or using SE/Bulldoze. SE deserves special mention here over Bulldoze because it hits harder in generall and isnt as exploitable as Bulldoze where the Entei user might run into a trap when some levitator/flying type comes in instead of Heatran.

Comparing it to other B+ threats imo the best comparison is Mega Medicham. They are both incredibly hard to switch into and have a similar speed tier. Medicham can switch moves but as already mentioned, Entei is fine by just clicking Sacred Fire 90% of the time and Extreme Speed allows Entei to compensate his mediocre speed tier while Medicham is left with Bulletpunch/Fakeout for priority. In terms of bulk its a trade SR weakness for more bulk and more usefull resists. Imo they are on a similar theat level and the rankings should reflect that.

That thing is far to good to go anywhere near the C+ ranks. He isnt outclassed by anything considering that he has a unique combination of traits and is still powerful and useful in the current meta.

 

[theV8man]

I agree with Mega Tyranitar dropping. Although it has godly bulk, the same can't be said for it's hitting power, and it has slight coverage issues (although running Magnezone remedies this). I've never really been that threatened by this Mega as I have by other dragon dancers because I can always revenge it with my scarfer and fighting types can nearly almost always take a hit and bonk it back.

 

[alexwolf]

I will just quote myself here regarding Entei



That thing is far to good to go anywhere near the C+ ranks. He isnt outclassed by anything considering that he has a unique combination of traits and is still powerful and useful in the current meta.

You say that the only Pokemon that want to switch into Entei is Heatran, which is far from true. Physically defensive Rotom-W, physically defensive Gliscor, Latios, Latias, Slowbro, Quagsire, support Tyranitar (which doesn't mind getting burned that much, its job is to set up SR and provide sand), Keldeo, Mega Charizard X, Manaphy, Alomomola, Politoed, Suicune, Kingdra, and Omastar can all check or counter Entei. Some of them might check Entei only once or may fear a coverage move, but it's not like Entei has good longevity or many switch-in opportunities. Entei has very lacking Speed for an offensive Pokemon, considering it needs to run an Adamant nature, and Extremespeed is not enough to mitigate this when so many offensive Pokemon OHKO you with or without SR, such as Latios, Latias, Keldeo, Greninja, Garchomp, Scarf Landorus-T, Terrakion, Mega Aerodactyl, Manaphy, etc. Entei needs CB otherwise it lacks power or dies too quickly, and with a CB it's too easy to take advantage of, especially for offensive teams (while defensive and balanced teams can usually wall it). Then, there is also the huge competition with other strong priority users, such as Talonflame and CB Dragonite, which are much better Pokemon in general and fill the same role as Entei pretty much (strong physical attacker with revenge killing abilities). I have been using Entei a lot during the last month and it doesn't feel on par with the rest of B- Pokemon, not to mention that pure Fire typing sucks defensively and gives it very few switch-in chances against offensive Pokemon.

 

[Ender Wiggin]

So with all the talk of changing up C/D rank I figured I'd offer some opinions and a nomination.

Hide

C+ Rank

Infernape
I want to see this guy moving up to B- Yes it's outclassed as a fire type. Yes it's outclassed as a fighting type. But with an excellent movepool. The ability to run mixed attacks. Access to a great support movepool including stealth rocks, toxic, taunt, W-o-W, U-turn even encore. (lol) It has stab priority on both sides of attacking and other forms of priority. It can set up special or physical or even a sub wisp. I really think this thing has a ton of untapped potential here.

Shuckle
Not so sure about this guy anymore. It'll get you a single hazard sure. But unlike other dedicated leads (Garchomp Terrakion etc) it's basically useless other than getting a hazard or luckily both up. Sticky web is also rather mediocre right now so being it's best user isn't a huge bonus. Shuckle to C.

C Rank

Blastoise (Mega)
Good coverage pretty solid bulk at 79/120/115 access to good coverage and rapid spin. But not at all passive with a 135 base spa and a boosting ability. Sorta on the fence about this guy as it lacks reliable recovery and takes up a mega (but not as big a deal for a stall team) I could see him at C+.

Chandelure
Why is this here still exactly? Just seems like a bad alakazam. You basically need to run scarf to do anything but then just a basic 145 nonboosted spa attack isn't going to sweep unless everything moderately in it's way is gone. Unless I'm completely missing something why is this still on the list? Stab fire over gengar but isn't it essentially a really bad mega houndoom? Chandelure for Unranked unless I'm missing something.

Porygon2
Essentially 85/135/142.5 base stats not including the 1.5 boost to EVs (Not gonna bother calcing that lol) with a very interesting set of abilities in trace, download, analytic a very good support movepool and 105 SPA with boltbeam coverage making it not one bit passive. I think C is underselling it. Porygon 2 for C+

Toxicroak
With a water immunity good offensive stabs a solid attack stat and semi recovery in the forms of dry skin and drain punch. This thing has a lot of versatility and just plain old shuts down a lot of stuff. Access to swords dance with sucker punch as decent priority. This thing just has a lot of good options. Toxicroak to C+

Volcarona
Probably about time this thing dies. Yes it has quiver dance. But horrible defensive typing crappy physical defense huge stealth rock issues and just plain old bird spam problems. Not to mention awful coverage. Leaving it hard walled by a huge amount of the meta game. Mothra to C-

C- Rank

Gorebyss
Yeah best smash passer. But is it actually good or just a niche? Cause if it's just a niche shouldn't it be D Rank? Gorebyss for D-Rank unless it's actually viable.

Gourgeist-Small
This thing is hugely undersold down here. It's an extraordinary subseeder with a pretty solid movepool and solid physical bulk with a speed tier allowing it to walk all over stall and slower offense. With excellent defensive typing and decent recovery also with a plethora of statuses and decent attack stat if you choose phantom force. Gourgeist-Small for C+ / C

Slowking
Simply a specially defensive slowbro. While physically defensive greater serves it's typing. It's still an excellent choice with solid bulk good movepool and being an excellent Keldeo counter. Slowking for C

D Rank

I'd also like to nominate Cottenee for D Rank.

(Cottonee) (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Tailwind
- Stun Spore
- Memento

This is the lead of Dennis' latest baton pass terror. You have all the other components ranked on this list because of that team why isn't this on it? The team can't function properly without it. With a few top players on the ladder running this team this thing is a must on this list.

 

[AM]

Update time:

Changes to discuss:

C and D ranks, especially the changes below
Conkeldurr to C+
Entei to C+
Infernape to C
Toxicroak to C+
Mega Absol to C-
Volcarona to C-
Seismitoad to C- / C
Lucario to B
Alomomola to B
Mega Tyranitar to A-

Ranking stuff

Changes to discuss

B- > C+ Just going to put what I put on like page 80 for those who want my justification for this drop

Can we just drop Conkeldurr down to C+ maybe even C while we're on this discussion? Offensive teams kind of just pick at Conkeldurr little by little and its biggest pro is only taking off items with Knock Off while in most cases it fails to sustain itself long enough with Drain Punch against actual good builds and players. I mean, within the past posts the cons have been pretty much highlighted more or less. Has to choose what it can actually fight against while getting walled or beaten against what it misses out on. Sure you can use the argument that it has a bit of versatility but its versatility is garbage when you consider that its strongest attack off of the standard set, not factoring in STAB and what not, is a base 75 move that can only some what heal you for a generally short duration of time before it loses it again. Also like alexwolf mentioned Conkeldurr only deters status users a bit and in most cases any average player with a brain will know not to just throw status willingly with Conk still up, so it only gets Guts activated in very occasional situations. Pivoting ability is kind of shit cause it does so only a couple of times and succumbs to repeated damage or hazards, unlike something such as Rotom-W which can at least recover with Pain Split if need be. Conk has really fallen from grace and every team has an answer for it by default without even trying.

I can argue some more points if needed but I really don't see how conkeldurr can seriously be a B- mon so C+ is fine.

C > C Volcarona puts constraint on team building in the fact you need to have a consistent answer to offensive water types, Lando-T, offensive rock types such as M-Ttar, and birdspam. However I really can't see it in the same boat as something like Diancie or Gorebyss. Those mons themselves have some niche uses in certain aspects that allows themselves to be on very limited teams. Volcarona does not have that drastic of limitations when the cons of Volcarona are fixed through basic teambuilding and it's more useful from a practical sense than those in the C- rank, who usually have only one or two jobs possible. Teams need an answer to what I mentioned in the first sentence, or at the very least a check to those. Passho Berry Volcarona can allow itself a second chance against water types such as Keldeo, Greninja, weakened Azumarills, Suicune, and so forth either to take the brunt of a hit or allow itself to get a boost in and finish the job with Giga Drain. Life Orb Volcarona hits extremely hard especially after a boost, and if its checks are out of the way, it can clean up extremely efficiently. The most consistent answers to Volcarona are priority users such as Azumarill and Dragonite, while others such as M-Scizor just keel over to Volcarona. The point being is that there is a lot of stuff that doesn't actually want to be fighting Volcarona head on or switching into it, and a well played Volcarona can definitely put in much more work than those in the C- rank which I feel is enough to maintain it's current C rank with the likes of some things like Mienshao and Toxicroak.

B+ > B Imo Alom has just been less consistent lately. It supposably has this outstanding bulk when in reality it only has good bulk against average neutral hits. It's set up bait for a bunch of stuff such as Mega Evolutions in general, NP Thundurus, SD M-Hera, TG + RD Manaphy, and so on. It's basically limited to only stall teams or more defensive balanced teams and is dead weight and pointless on offense. Its over dependency on Wish + Protect makes it predictable from team preview and is so passive that it succumbs to specially offensive hitters most of the time and can only shine against certain teams, which in most cases these teams are generally sub optimal if Alomomola is walling them by itself. It needs a defensive partner with it that can take the brunt of the stuff it can't handle so as such it puts more thought process into building and can't be implemented as easily. Due to the common knowledge of what it does it is generally less useful than those with more notable uses such as Jirachi and Torn-T, who both have much more diversity and with that can keep players guessing to a degree where as everyone knows what Alom does and can simply play around it. B is more suitable.

Also while we're on the topic of C and D rank, can someone justify hydreigon's position in C- rank? I don't really get it and everytime I see hydreigon it does nothing significant in a match.

 

[Celticpride]

Ferrothorn stays A despite people arguing that a rise in Magnezone is the only reason as to why it dropped. People are neglecting the fact that Lati@s runs HP fire, Azumarill runs Superpower, Greninja runs Hidden Power Fire, etc. more commonly now. Its presence itself is somewhat centralizing, and the metagame is adapting in response to it.

Quick point, if the meta is adapting to it, wouldn't that make it less viable instead of more viable? Similar to the Mega Venusaur to S argument a few weeks ago, isn't impact on the meta different than viability in said meta? If more things are carrying Fire and Fighting coverage to combat Ferro, that's a reason Ferro should drop, not stay where it is. A utility wall is supposed to stop a lot of things. If more things adapt to effectively beat said wall, that makes said wall less effective in the meta, and therefore less viable. Also, Latios and Azumarill don't exactly sabatoge their respective movesets to beat Ferro either.

Infernape to C
Mega Absol to C-
Mega Tyranitar to A-

Infernape's wallbreaking set is very good in the current meta, it 2HKOs damn near everything against stall, while still using it's speed tier to outspeed everything south of Garchomp. I'll summon Quickbobhero to talk more about this because he has a very good set for Ape iirc and knows more about it than me. I think Ape leans more towards B- than C imo, and I would like to hear the argument for moving it down because I'm not sure what it is. Mega Wallbreakers are nice, but teams need non-Mega wallbreakers too.

I'm a big Mega Absol fan, but it's just not good enough anymore. Mega Scizor and Mega Pinsir have more bulk to get the SD up, and Mega Aero and Zam outdo it in the "fast than the whole damn meta" category. STAB Sucker Punch and Knock Off is nice, and Superpower and Play Rough complement Dark attacks great. Mega Absol's time has passed, however. It was mad underrated in the Deo/Aegi/Sharp meta, but a more offensive meta isn't kind to it. Drop of Thundy doesn't help either, because Mega Absol had a niche as a great anti-Thundy weapon. It does have uses, and if stall revives itself it should rise back up because it's a damn good stallbreaker that doesn't need to waste a slot or turns Taunting things. I could really go either way on it, I could see it in C- with Mega Aggron and Blast or staying in C. It should not, however drop of the rankings anytime soon. It's still miles better than anything in D and other crap like Mega Abomasnow or Mega Banette.

With regards to Mega Tyranitar, I've found a set of Stone Edge/Ice Punch/Fire Punch/DD works really well. It's not as effective anymore, but Keldeo can't switch into it at +1 as Stone Edge 2HKOs 85% of the time. Ice Punch allows it to break defensive Lando-T and Gliscor, and Fire Punch breaks Ferro and reliably break Skarm. A- does seems like a possibility, but don't drop it because you think it runs Stone Edge/Crunch/Earthquake. Those days are long gone.

 

[Puralux]

Alright , i'll try to make you understand the real quality of an S rank Pokemon before you nominate one.

​

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

In more detailed words an S rank pokemon is considered a pokemon ''near to overpowered'' or ''Extremely Effective''. This pokemon boasts a great maestry on his role and something that is distinctly superior to what A+ pokemons does ; moreover this pokémon can also instruct multiple roles and then , being extremely versatile. This pokèmon are easy to fill in a team thanks to their synergy with other pokèmons in the metagame , and can be efficent and useful in more situations than the A+ pokemons. This pokemon's flaws are compensated by their efficency and versatility in the battle. In a few words , we can consider also this pokemon as perfection in the metagame , something that is not overpowered but at the same time he is something like that. It's obviously that i exclude broken pokemons that were in S rank , like Mega Mawile ; that type of pokemon needs to be S+ or very rarely SS , because S wouldn't be enough to judge its enormous power. I'll try to make the summary of the reasons , not all obviously , of why these pokemons are S ranked and to make you understand of how is structured and how advantages has as S ranked pokemon , according to my knowledge. If i miss some important factors let me know immediately and i will edit this post.

Charizard Mega-X:
This pokemon is simply a monster. Has a great physical bulkyness and a little specially , has a nice coverage , strong STAB moves , the access of boosting Attack and Speed thanks to Dragon dance and an ability that makes further stronger that contact STAB moves (Tough Claws) and then , all contact moves. Can instruct multiple roles , some examples are the Bulky Dragon Dance , which is the most used (?) , and the Bulky Will o Wisp , more strategic , which allows him to gain more physical bulkyness against non-fire physical attackers. Has immunity to Burn and takes 1x effectiveness instead of 2x , from Fairy type moves. Takes 2x (25%) instead of 4x (50%) damage from stealth rock that the base Charizard and Charizard mega Y takes. Surely deserved his S rank.

Latios:
Really nice pokemon. Has a great SpA and Speed. Does massive damage with Draco Meteor thanks to his STAB and by the power obtained thanks to life orb , which is the most common item on him. Still does a large damage after the reduction of the SpA by one Draco Meteor. Has access to Earthquake , which he can use it to counter checks like Heatran or Empoleon , and his power is not reduced by using one Draco Meteor as this move is Physical. Can learn defog , so is also a defogger , and can use Trick as Specs or Scarf user to gain stallbreaking power. Damaged 1x (12%) by Stealth rocks , immune to Sticky web , Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Can be put easily on any team thanks to its utility in vast situations. A great Pokemon that surely deserved his S rank


Greninja:
Amazing Pokemon. This pokemon is useful in a lot of situations and can create problems to almost every type of team. Is a really fast Pokèmon and has a nice versatility. He boasts STAB in every damaging moves due to Protean , which he can do always a large damage with the addition of the most common item on him: Life Orb. We shouldn't forget also his excellent coverage , an example of a really good coverage move is Extrasensory , which hurts Hard Mega Venusaur , Keldeo and other classic Greninja Check. Can benefit from his ability to the resistance of the opponent's attacks if using a certain move. Very probably deserved its S rank.


Keldeo:
Fantastic pokemon in the OU metagame. Has the ability of hit hard specially defensive pokemons. thanks to Secret Sword , a STAB move special that is based on the Defense instead of SpD and that advantages him against that specially defensive pokemons. He has a high speed and a huge SpA if Specs , which hits hard almost every pokemon. Has Hydro pump , which is a powerful STAB move that creates serious damages. Scald is another great move on Keldeo , provides 100% accuracy and to burn in switch-ins. He can also use another fantastic move , Hidden Power Flying , which allows him to hit dangerous threats like Mega Venusaur , Trevenant or Chesnaught. His S rank is deserved


I hope that you did understand how really an S rank is characterized. Be always sure of why the pokemon that you nominated should be S rank , with a really strong reason.