This will sound like a broken record by this point but I would also like to talk about Nape one last time. I recently built a team that utilised wisp nape on it, just for fun. I ended up facing a team composed of Azumarill, Scarf Lando, Mega Pinsir and Dragonite, four incredibly powerful threats atm and many of them supposedly annihilate Infernape. While I do not have a replay to prove any of this, which makes this all a lie as far as anyone else is concerned, I burnt Azumarill, Landorus and Dragonite, be it on the switch in or just by virtue of prediction. In that one slot, I had a Bisharp, M-Scizor and Mew counter and was able to beat mons which should have curbstomped me, as well as beat stall thanks to taunt + wisp + recovery. I get Infernape has not been a great mon since gen 5 and many people are still fixated that it's bad for whatever reason, but cmon, I and many other people have tried to explain its uses and it far surpasses many of the mons in C and even C+, it's really quite disgusting that you continue to understate its usefulness. Stop looking at the issues of mons on paper, some mons look amazing on paper but fail to live up to their expectations. The reverse is also true and Infernape is one such mon that looks bad on paper but finds plenty of opportunity to shine, even when it seems like it will be useless in a match. With that said I urge you to take this into consideration, you may think otherwise but I believe the combination of the multiple and diverse sets nape has and the fact that all of them have more than very specific reasons to use them is reason enough to move him back to C+, fuck, even B-.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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What are your thoughts on Rotom-W it seems as it has dropped a lot in usage as of late.
This might be the best time for me to maybe change the ranking of Infernape, however using Mixed Infernape, which is more important for me to bring up because it was a set that was supposed to be rejected yet I found to be very useful. However, defensive Infernape is still underrated and strong.
Infernape has a strong movepool that really lets it fill a glue for a team, while still having enough offensive stats to pull a dent on even common checks such as Azumarill or the Lati@s, and really weaken them for the rest of the match. Sure, a lot of Pokemon have this, but things such as access to a nice priority which allows it to dispose of threats that many Pokemon have a huge problem with such as Bisharp, Greninja, and Crawdaunt, and coverage to make switching on to Infernape harder worthy of making him C+ again, or B-. It really has hardly been useless vs any kind of team really, especially bulky offense and balance teams, where you can really utilize this. The rest of what I'm about to say is just going to be a broken record, and as a matter of fact, this is a broken record already. However, I'll try to convince you people through replays that I have saved and will try to explain what Infernape did which was so important, since I feel like replays will really help you people see the many possible things you can do with Infernape.
While I really wish I saved more replays that showed how useful Mach Punch was, for taking out Pokemon like Greninja, Mega Manectric, and Crawdaunt, I can easily say mixed Infernape has a valuable niche on this team and this team certainly went far. I actually peaked at 1959 (was even peaked #2 for an hour or two until leftiez won a match in which case I became #3 until massive tilt+decay) and I can tell you that I didn't just hax my way to the top.
EDIT:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-173310966
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-173860869
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-172756695
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-174144637
Infernape has a strong movepool that really lets it fill a glue for a team, while still having enough offensive stats to pull a dent on even common checks such as Azumarill or the Lati@s, and really weaken them for the rest of the match. Sure, a lot of Pokemon have this, but things such as access to a nice priority which allows it to dispose of threats that many Pokemon have a huge problem with such as Bisharp, Greninja, and Crawdaunt, and coverage to make switching on to Infernape harder worthy of making him C+ again, or B-. It really has hardly been useless vs any kind of team really, especially bulky offense and balance teams, where you can really utilize this. The rest of what I'm about to say is just going to be a broken record, and as a matter of fact, this is a broken record already. However, I'll try to convince you people through replays that I have saved and will try to explain what Infernape did which was so important, since I feel like replays will really help you people see the many possible things you can do with Infernape.
While I really wish I saved more replays that showed how useful Mach Punch was, for taking out Pokemon like Greninja, Mega Manectric, and Crawdaunt, I can easily say mixed Infernape has a valuable niche on this team and this team certainly went far. I actually peaked at 1959 (was even peaked #2 for an hour or two until leftiez won a match in which case I became #3 until massive tilt+decay) and I can tell you that I didn't just hax my way to the top.
EDIT:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-173310966
While not the perfect example, this is vs a user of watch cats, who was 1900's and I even managed to face a user of bloody sunday, who was actually #2 at the time I fought him and used the same team and better showed Infernape doing work, where Infernape 2HKO'd Mega Venusaur on the switch-in and revenge killing a very scary Bisharp who outsped that I was unable to burn this time around due to speed tiers. Still, this will do.
Infernape really put pressure on his whole team, nothing really wanted to switch in, as even Mega Venusaur could've gotten 2HKO'd by Fire Blast after Stealth Rocks. I only managed to take out Skarmory and a burnt Bisharp, (albiet, a still threatening Bisharp) due to me trying to make sure I don't miss and getting hit by Rocky Helmet. Still, I managed to take out two very important win cons that allowed his team to be pelted down by the rest of my team (in particular Landorus-T) and managed to pull a win
Had this been Keldeo, watch cats would've had an easy time switching in on Keldeo, due to Mega Venusaur being such a hard check, and be able to abuse the fact that Keldeo really needs Specs to get the power it desires.
Infernape really put pressure on his whole team, nothing really wanted to switch in, as even Mega Venusaur could've gotten 2HKO'd by Fire Blast after Stealth Rocks. I only managed to take out Skarmory and a burnt Bisharp, (albiet, a still threatening Bisharp) due to me trying to make sure I don't miss and getting hit by Rocky Helmet. Still, I managed to take out two very important win cons that allowed his team to be pelted down by the rest of my team (in particular Landorus-T) and managed to pull a win
Had this been Keldeo, watch cats would've had an easy time switching in on Keldeo, due to Mega Venusaur being such a hard check, and be able to abuse the fact that Keldeo really needs Specs to get the power it desires.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-173860869
This match is more or less just to show you that Infernape really does more damage than expected to common switch-ins, and that even if the mon's that provide Infernape his main niche isn't necessarily there, he STILL manages to provide useful offensive momentum with pure damage. I could've potentially ended that match sooner if the majority of the switches into Landorus-T vs Charizard Y I sent out Infernape and KO him with that nice CC. (Didn't have stone edge at this time) This is further exaggerated because with Charizard Y's sun, Infernape became an even bigger threat than expected from his team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-172756695
While I lost this match due to a misclick and the cancel button not working to fix it. Infernape really put a lot of work in and I cannot say I would've gotten close without him. Being able to 2hko Amolamola after sr/residual damage was a big deal. This was a long as hell match, btw, even I skimmed through a lot of the turns @_@.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-174144637
While not an 1800+ match, I can easily say M Dragon is far more than prepared for 1800s, and he's probably much better than me. Infernape being able to actually switch in on Jirachi is nice and all, but had I not sent in Gardevoir so early, I could've shown more than the generic "Infernape can still dent things" that even Keldeo could do as I could've taken out Slowbro ealier in the match via Grass Knot rather than try to preserve Mega Gardevoir. Keep in mind this was right after the aftermath of a hard tilt and I was also demotivated so I wasn't playing my best at all, and Infernape should've made this game way easier had I decided to not play Gardevoir so foolishly.
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I think Rotom-W should drop a rank. I find it's very easy to play around these days. Chesto Rest and Pain Split as it's only means of recovery makes it easy to wear down for Mega Pinsir and Talonflame to sweep. The rise in usage of Mega Man and Magnezone give it competition as Volt Turners/Bird Spam checks too. It also finds itself where it doesn't hit hard enough if all the EV's go into defenses (sometimes I even just stay in with Specs Keldeo to wear it down for Pinsir) and is too frail if using CS/Specs. Rotom-W is still good, just not on the level of the other A ranks right now in my opinion.
No offense, but by that logic, why discuss rankings -at all- at this point? The metagame is about to have an injection of what amounts to 19 new Pokemon, at least a handful of which are guaranteed to be OU viable. In addition to this, every Pokemon currently OU viable, and many who are not, is going to get new toys to play with. The XY metagame is looking at a change only slightly less significant than an entirely new generation. None of the current rankings are going to remain relevant in this landscape.
it also has priority Spikes and Thunder Wave allowing it to make for a nifty lead. also, Fairy Lock gives it a niche in being able to trap Pokemon and set up Spikes / screens on them
With a resurgence in Spikes usage and the usefulness of Dual Screens on more offensive teams I think Klefki is fine at C+. It has a solid typing to and prankster twave is a boon to a lot of top tier threats such as the the S rank and a majority of the faster threats in the tier.
Fairy Lock traps both Klefki and the opposing Pokemon. It only works if you know the opponent is going to KO Klefki that turn, so it is really situational.
I don't think you get the way Fairy Lock should be used. It is meant to be used so that when Klefki is about to die, it can trap that opponent in for the next turn. It is pretty useful in plenty of situations. Let's say, for example, that Landorus or Garchomp is on the field, and they are ready to kill Klefki. Well, you click Fairy Lock and trap them as they kill you. Next, you send in something like Greninja or Mamoswine, and proceed to kill them with an Ice move. This works well because now they can't switch out of the incoming Ice Beam or Ice Shard, respectively. Of course there are a few other situations too which I don't feel like listing. It's a nice move, and Klefki also has Prankster Spikes and Dual Screens, which allows Klefki to make a very nice lead for offensive teams, especially for ones that use setup sweepers, like say, Lucario.
Of course Klefki still has problems, like having little offensive presence and being very one dimensional. However, its use as a lead is nice, and its typing is incredibly good too. Fairy Lock also has some nice clutch uses. Because of this I feel as if Klefki should keep its current ranking.
Of course Klefki still has problems, like having little offensive presence and being very one dimensional. However, its use as a lead is nice, and its typing is incredibly good too. Fairy Lock also has some nice clutch uses. Because of this I feel as if Klefki should keep its current ranking.
I will have my own "little" nomination-
Garchomp for S rank
I'm sure most people will see this weird and unfitting, because a lot of people see garchomp as one of the worse mon in A+, but I personally see it as one of the best mons in the metagame. Its all start with with one thing-his trollish, yet amazing, 102 base speed tier. Let it outspeed so many important pokemons. Along a 130 base attack and fantastic dragon/ground STAB coverage, the offensive pressure this thing create is amazing, he stop so many thing from stalling, wallbreaking and sweeping the user teams.
Garchomp have a good movepool, but with the amazing coverage in dragon claw/earthquake he only need to choose between iron head, fire blast, stone edge-iron head can stop fairies from ruin the dragon spam party, stone edge give a the nice edgequake combination, and fire blast give him the ability to get past skarmory and ferrothron whose otherwise would give him lots of trouble, mixed coverage and most of all perfect coverage(something most pokemon would wish to get).
From the first paragraph I'm sure garchomp has a greninja image-a fast frail mon that if it won't finish the target it will get killed, but thing about garchomp is that in addition to its offensive capabilities its got more than decent 108/95/85 defenses, thats let him take a hit or two, and even punish a little physical contact with rough skin.
In addition to all of this garchomp have stealth rock, pretty much a must move in today metagame, which let him support the team in addition to his great offensive capabilities.
Garchomp main two rolls are revenge killer and rock setter. The first one he doing great with his speed, and can do even better with choice scarf-with it he can outspeed the whole unboosted and unscarfed metagame. Making him the best revenge killer after talomflame. And given the fact that the common ways to paralyze doesn't work on him given his ground type, which make him do his job reliably.
As a rock setter garchomp can beat any other of the team leads, I'm at the moment you are thinking about mamoswine, but:
252 attack mamoswine ice shard vs. 0 hp/ 0 def Garchomp: 276-328(77.3%-91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If mamoswine gonna try to beat it will lose the chance to set up rock.
In addition to it garchomp can easily function as a sweeper, without counting it as one, which make him such a verstile mon which is really easy to slap on a team.
Anyone who used it know very well-to take this thing out you need to both outspeed it and hit it for super effective, which is not easy given his speed and his bulk, and otherwise its a bitch to deal with.
I think all of this make garchomp one of the best mons in the tier, he's strong, fast, bulky and can support his team-all of this can do amazingly easy. Such a combination of skills only few mons have, namely zardX and latias-both S rank.
Garchomp for S rank
I'm sure most people will see this weird and unfitting, because a lot of people see garchomp as one of the worse mon in A+, but I personally see it as one of the best mons in the metagame. Its all start with with one thing-his trollish, yet amazing, 102 base speed tier. Let it outspeed so many important pokemons. Along a 130 base attack and fantastic dragon/ground STAB coverage, the offensive pressure this thing create is amazing, he stop so many thing from stalling, wallbreaking and sweeping the user teams.
Garchomp have a good movepool, but with the amazing coverage in dragon claw/earthquake he only need to choose between iron head, fire blast, stone edge-iron head can stop fairies from ruin the dragon spam party, stone edge give a the nice edgequake combination, and fire blast give him the ability to get past skarmory and ferrothron whose otherwise would give him lots of trouble, mixed coverage and most of all perfect coverage(something most pokemon would wish to get).
From the first paragraph I'm sure garchomp has a greninja image-a fast frail mon that if it won't finish the target it will get killed, but thing about garchomp is that in addition to its offensive capabilities its got more than decent 108/95/85 defenses, thats let him take a hit or two, and even punish a little physical contact with rough skin.
In addition to all of this garchomp have stealth rock, pretty much a must move in today metagame, which let him support the team in addition to his great offensive capabilities.
Garchomp main two rolls are revenge killer and rock setter. The first one he doing great with his speed, and can do even better with choice scarf-with it he can outspeed the whole unboosted and unscarfed metagame. Making him the best revenge killer after talomflame. And given the fact that the common ways to paralyze doesn't work on him given his ground type, which make him do his job reliably.
As a rock setter garchomp can beat any other of the team leads, I'm at the moment you are thinking about mamoswine, but:
252 attack mamoswine ice shard vs. 0 hp/ 0 def Garchomp: 276-328(77.3%-91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If mamoswine gonna try to beat it will lose the chance to set up rock.
In addition to it garchomp can easily function as a sweeper, without counting it as one, which make him such a verstile mon which is really easy to slap on a team.
Anyone who used it know very well-to take this thing out you need to both outspeed it and hit it for super effective, which is not easy given his speed and his bulk, and otherwise its a bitch to deal with.
I think all of this make garchomp one of the best mons in the tier, he's strong, fast, bulky and can support his team-all of this can do amazingly easy. Such a combination of skills only few mons have, namely zardX and latias-both S rank.
Why would Mamoswine Ice Shard? Garchomp can't exactly hit it back with anything hard.
4 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 200-236 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 196-232 (54.2 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mamoswine Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 516-624 (144.5 - 174.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 580-688 (162.4 - 192.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Unless Mamoswine is severely weakened, it isn't threatened by Garchomp in the slightest and set up it's rocks or go for the KO. It's role is to act as a suicide lead most the time anyhow, so even if it goes for stealth rock then ice shards, your Garchomp is still weakened like hell before another Pokémon comes in to finish it off or set up.
Since mamo 2hko witn priority or ohko with his normal stab he either way gonna be damaged, in a situation where he can easily be finish after, given the fact that he is easy to outspeed.
And if the player will decide to set rock any way than mamo will be knocked out.
But that particular Mamoswine isn't intended to stay alive. It's there to set rocks and act as an anti-lead. It gets rocks up and severely weakens Chomp; that's it's role in that particular situation and it doesn't care about actually defeating it.
I concur. Choice Scarf sets are easily stopped by Clefable and Landorus-T,and has huge competition with Landorus-T as a Choice Scarf user, despite Garchomp being faster. Offensive Stealth Rock has huge problems with not being able to carry both Swords Dance and Fire Blast, which makes it unable to beat all of the Pokemon it wants to beat in one moveslot. This can be partially remedied using Life Orb MixChomp, and while that gets past Landorus-T while still nailing Ferrothorn, it is walled by Clefable, and cannot break through it. Simply put, Garchomp has massive issues with two of the most common Pokemon in OU, and attempting to break through both of them requires a dedicated Swords Dance set, which limits what it needs to get done. Keep Garchomp at A+ Rank.
Don't take me wrong, I won't say garchomp is the perfect anti-lead or even good mamo lead counter. I'm just teying to say that as lead it can deal well other lead, even mamo who is his biggest problem, will be punish in order to deal with it. In the case of mamo it less relevent, but still put it in a case of defeat chomp or lay rock and waste(even if is inted to die after rocks its a huge waste given hoe east hazard control is in this gen
The fact that you can mention only two hard counters show how great it is. Even one of whose(clefable) is defeated with life orb set.
Garchomp does not want to run maximum Attack + Life Orb because Life Orb Dragon Claw is weaker than a non-LO Outrage, and Garchomp needs enough power to bust through Landorus-T. Not to mention that Outrage without Lum Berry is ass and forces you to switch out after two to three turns. Garchomp is not as difficult to handle as the four S Rank mons. Even Keldeo can be tricky because it can spam Scald to deter its checks.
Clefable, Mamoswine, Weavile, M-Scizor, the Latis, Bulky Ground types such as Hippo and Lando-T, Rotom-W, generally strong priority users, Greninja, Azumarill, Keldeo.....all of these more or less with a continuation of threats hinder Garchomps viability to a degree. Non scarf sets get outpaced by offense easily and hit Garchomp for substantial damage. Scarf set is based on proper prediction or circumstances where you've allowed Garchomp the opportunity to clean up with Outrage/EQ. Garchomp gets worn down by teams with strong priority users in general as well. It shouldn't really be considered S rank because there is an opportunity cost for each of its set that is good enough to justify a slight amount of support to excel at its roles, hence it should stay at A+.
Hydreigon is in D rank because it's outclassed by most other Dragons. It's outclassed by Latios (as you said) because it has better SpA and better speed to outspeed threats. Sure, Hydreigon could run Scarf but it misses out on power. It's outclassed in the physical offensive department because of Dragonite and Megazard X. On top of that, it has a weird speed tier that allows it to be outsped by many offensive threats. Tbh, I can't think of any set that some other Dragon can do better. Essentially, it has "Salamence-syndrome."
Here's the definition of D rank, which, imo, is more fitting for Hydreigon: These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.
Feel free to disagree with my thoughts, but I'm js.
The list looks pretty good as it is right now leading into ORAS, however, there is one glaring thing that looks out of place. I know Garchomp just got moved to A+, but it really should go back to A. Both of its stabs are easy to switch into despite having good coverage on paper, due to the fact that most teams have at least one immunity to each stab. Secondly, none of its sets are super great. The scarf set faces heavy competition from lando-t and garchomp really doesnt want to be locked into ahy of its moves. The lead set is good, yet terrakin and mamoswine are arguably just as good, both having their own pros. Terrakion is a little faster and has taunt, while mamoswine cant be taunted and has prioirty ice shard. Also, terrakion and mamoswine have a just as good if not as good dual stab as garchomp. Finally, i know a lot of people like the sd lum berry set, but im just not seeing whats so good about it. Its easily revenge killed due to its speed not being as fantastic as it used to be and while the set is good against stall, it struggles more against the more common playstyle-offense.
Garchomp is versatile and all, but none of its sets are that great and really dont compare to other A+ pokemon who are much more meta defining, such as talonflame, azumarill, clefable, thundurus, and mega venusaur.
Garchomp is versatile and all, but none of its sets are that great and really dont compare to other A+ pokemon who are much more meta defining, such as talonflame, azumarill, clefable, thundurus, and mega venusaur.
I'd like to try to nominate Mega Banette for D rank. This is a Pokemon with a good amount of utility. Priority Destiny Bond to sacrifice itself before it goes down, Will-O-Wisp to cripple physical attackers such as Azumarill, Thunder Wave to cripple fast threats such as Greninja, Latios, etc., Pain Split to get amounts of HP back, and Disable to remove the use of a move for a potential scarfer (albeit uncommon) which are all useful moves for it to have. It also has Frisk before Mega Evolving so you can scout out what item your opponent may be holding. Frisk in conjunction with Knock Off can be rather useful in some cases if you want to remove certain items. A base 165 attack can also leave a heavy dent on the opponent. However, that's pretty much where all the good for Mega Banette ends. 65/75/83 defenses aren't much to write home about and you can't have it switch in on much. The use of a Mega slot is also really harsh on it when one could run something like Mega Charizard X, Mega Pinsir, Mega whatever. However, with the utility it holds whether it's scouting out items, removing items, or crippling/removing various threats, I believe that Mega Banette should be nominated for D rank.
New poster here, but I think Garchomp does just fine in A+ It's speed tier is pretty good, it can fill a variety of roles, so your opponent doesn't know what is coming at them, you can mega too, so there is that deception there with enough creativity and skill, Garchomp can be a pretty good 'glue ' for your team
The Mega is ranked separately from Garchomp, and really shouldn't impact regular Garchomp's ranking. The possible threat of being a Mega when you also have another potential Mega might help it's ranking, but those situations are very few (ex. Chomp and Scizor, Chomp and Gyara).
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