From my experience with Garchomp, it has issues getting past Landorus-T and Clefable (Slowbro now too), which has discouraged me from using Scarf Garchomp over Scarf Landorus-T, which is a much more useful Scarf user because it is able to U-turn out of most threats or spam Knock Off rather than sit there and be a momentum vaccuum because you just sit there, hopelessly walled instead. Offensive Stealth Rock in my opinion fits onto some teams, but Stealth Rock Terrakion is a better setter because it is faster, and has access to Taunt, whereas Garchomp is sitting there in no man's land. Sure, Garchomp has some clear advantages over Terrakion, but when I want a Stealth Rock lead, I usually stick with Terrakion, or even Mamoswine, but not Garchomp. Banded Garchomp comes at the price of bad STABs to be locked into, making it really easy for a more balanced or stall team to take advantage of. Swords Dance might not be bad, but I really have no good opinion on that, and usually people are talking about Stealth Rock or Choice Scarf. But all in all, Garchomp is way too easy to take advantage of to stay in A+ rank.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
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I've used Staraptor recently, and I'd say it still has a good spot in its B ranking. It's most useful in birdspam teams, but kinda hard to fit in because of Pinsir and Talonflame taking up the slots. That being said, Staraptor is flat out ridiculous in terms of how hard it hits. It at least 2HKO's literally any wall, no matter how defensive, with the sole exception being Skarmory (and Doublade I guess), which still takes up to 40% from CC. It even 2HKO's Rhyperior. If you have this thing on a team with Talonflame, not only is Skarmory is less of a problem, but Staraptor does a stellar job of killing everything Talonflame hates like Tyranitar, Rotom-w, etc. It also gets utility in the form of U-turn. A very good wallbreaker, frighteningly effective with Magnezone/Talonflame support. It's main downsides are its frailty, bad typing, meh speed, and the fact that it practically kills itself with all the recoil it takes lol. That being said, imo it belongs in B unless there are any flaws I've missed, because this thing is good.
The main boon to using Garchomp as a lead is that because of Fire Blast, it doesn't get walled by Scizor and Skarm. Otherwise Mamo and Terrakion are better leads though.
252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gastrodon: 185-218 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 134-160 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 165-195 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
I will be fair about Mega Venusaur, since you can theoretically beat it with Synthesis being nerfed in rain, but Seismitoad struggles to break both Gastrodon and Amoonguss without getting some prior damage on them.
I think Sableye can drop to C+ at this point. It was a bit more hyped when M-Cham was really relevant in terms of that timeframe after the M-Mawile ban. After that though it has become prone to just too many things in the tier. Spikes usage makes its common ability to come in repeatedly to take resisted or immune hits a hindrance because it's forced in so many occasions to spam recover to maintain longevity. Besides the spikes usage in general though Sableye is pretty easy to actually wear down. It's not exactly that bulky, its the illusion that is presented by its typing that makes people assume this when it doesn't want to be taking hits from a lot of relevant threats in the tier. It has a solid niche in having the advantage of burning the majority of physical threats in the meta. However, I've never actually seen a good player get there physical attackers burned by this thing unless they didn't care or it was for another purpose entirely. It slows down very passive stall, Knock Off for a bit added utility, and that's where it shines but Sableye doesn't like such an offensive meta and realistically isn't B rank material.
I posted my opinion on others a couple pages back so that's all I can speak on. Still wondering the justification for Conkeldurr moving up though.
I posted my opinion on others a couple pages back so that's all I can speak on. Still wondering the justification for Conkeldurr moving up though.
I think if Conk were to rise, it'd be because of its ability to check every Gengar set. It avoids the 2hko from Sludge Wave and always KOs with Knock Off, and additionally doesn't care about Taunt, doesn't mind sub, and actually somewhat enjoys Will-o-Wisp. Destiny Bond is annoying, but it's not that common. Outside of Gengar, Conk also beats Mew with ease, and Mew switch ins on teams with a non-Fire mega are somewhat rare. Guts is actually pretty underrated, since it allows conk to risk much less when pivoting on weaker users of scald/lava plume. It's actually a pretty decent all-around Heatran check, and can also check Greninja reliably now, thanks to Extrasensory's popularity decreasing. Bisharp, Magnezone, Kyurem-B, and Tyranitar are some other relatively common mons that Conk beats.
From my experience, it does however have two pretty big flaws. The first is that Drain Punch isn't that reliable for recovery, so because of random burns, crits, hazards, etc, conk can get 2hkod by moves it otherwise wouldn't. The second big issue with Conk is by using it, your team automatically becomes super weak to BirdSpam.
I know conk is pretty mediocre and doesn't deserve the usage it's getting, but I also think C+ is underrating it a bit, just going by definition. By comparison, it has a relatively well defined niche in OU, which sets it apart from Magneton, Entei, Toxicroak, and Infernape (I know that may be vague... but it makes sense in my head. Basically, Conk has a clear role that its able to effectively do thanks to its stats/ability/movepool etc. It doesn't rely on hax or tiny differences in stats to give it a niche). It also faces zero competition for its exact role, which sets it apart from Infernape, Tangrowth, Gastrodon, and Magneton. I'd definitely place Conk way above these mons, but I'm not exactly sure if it's better than Goodra. Goodra is a really awesome Pokemon now, capable of checking a lot of top tier threats, namely Mega Manectric and Gengar, and I pretty much equate its with conk's as an Assault Vest user. I think both, thanks to the rise in Manectric + Gengar + Zone are really solid now, and actually fit better with B- mons than C+ mons.
Garchomp is neutral to aqua jet, bullet and mach punch which terrak is weak to, this allows chomp to set up rocks on more things or attack and set up rocks. It also doesn't need a sash to get the job done allowing rocky helmet to wear stuff down, life orb to dent stuff or lum to beat breloom and wispers. You probably shouldn't use banded chomp since life orb and/or an SD set take better advantage of its good coverage and lets it beat tran, ferrothorn and dent something with outrage.
Conkeldurr isn't beating Mew, as long as the Mew user is not stupid or at a great matchup disadvantage. Mew should wait until it gets his item removed to burn Conkeldurr, at which point it can easily beat Conkeldurr by just spamming Softboiled, as Conk is losing more than Mew each turn. And it's not like Mew lacks any other spammable move besides WoW, he has Knock Off, so being unable to spam WoW until your item gets removed is not such a big deal. As for Conkeldurr checking LO Gengar, it can only do it once (same with stuff such as Greninja and Thundurus), and since it's not that hard to wall, checking big threats for a single time doesn't mean much.
If i wanted something to beat Mew, i would much rather use AV Heracross than AV Conkeldurr tbh, which is much harder to wall and outspeeds many relevant threats.
Just wanna put my two cents in on Heracross-mega. After the Aegislash ban, everyone and their mothers ran to test out the new big threats, M-Hera was one such mon but I've always felt like it has been severely overhyped in it's usefulness compared to the other wallbreaker megas, whom I often find myself using over heracross. Depsite being an absolute monster with no safe switch ins, heracross always ends up doing less work than you'd want it to, the main reason for this being it's low speed. Every time the opponent manages to bring in a mon that threatens it out, which there are a fair amount of viable mons that can take at least one of its moves and outspeed + KO, you're forced to lose a huge amount of momentum. What im trying to say by this is that heracross always has only one turn at a time to damage the opposing team before being forced out, granted it does a shitload of damage in that turn. Compared to Gardevoir, who's speed and typing allow it to come in and stay in for a few turns, wreaking havok, the heracross user is forced to make 100% predictions every turn in order to truly put in work. While a well played M-Hera is more threatening than a well played Garde or Cham, it is far harder to play a Heracross well compared to the other two, meaning it is less consistant in the long run, for this I feel like A is more suited to Heracross than A+
Their typing is basically a wash, Hera's typing gives him just as many opportunities as Gard. Resistances to Ground, Fighting, Dark (especially Knock Off), and neutrality to Rock allow it to stand-up to several physical threats back to back, including Lando-T and the Tyranitar-Excadrill Sand teams. Also, everybody keeps mentioning the speed tier. What exactly falls in between Heracross and Gardevoir that Hera can't handle well anyway? The only threat is Jirachi, who you are playing to a speed tie if Rachi isn't Scarfed.
That doesn't make sense. Even if you mispredict every time, resisted hits still deal 50%+ damage to almost the entire meta game. Even if Latios switches into CC it loses over half of it's health. Heracross is forced to retreat afterwards, ceding momentum, but Latios loses it's ability to check it a second time unless it is carrying Roost. Gardevoir suffers from the same problem, there are many viable threats that can eat a Psyshock of Focus Blast and force it out. Mega Gardevoir has to correctly predict the switch against AV Azu and Lando-T or else it is forced out as well. Hera may have to switch out against something that can eat a coverage move (really only 4x resists can eat a coverage move multiple times over the course of a match), but that's not a problem Gard doesn't suffer from as well. ScarfTran, Landorus-T, Mega Scizor, Jirachi and Victini can switch in on one or more of Gard's moves and force it out after. It's not like Gardevoir plays any better with shitty prediction, there are just as many teams out there that can handle a poorly played Gard as a poorly played Heracross.
If enough people want Mega Heracross to drop, so be it. But let's not act like Mega Gardevoir plays so much better. The typing basically beats even, checking relevant threats basically evens out (Hera actually checks more just looking at the S and A ranks) and the speed difference is hugely overblown because nothing falls in between them that Hera really wishes it could outspeed. If Mega Heracross drops to A, Mega Gardevoir should drop to A as well.
Garchomp is much easier to take advantage of than Terrakion because Garchomp's STABs are much easier to exploit, whereas Terrakion can stop things from setting up on it with Taunt, despite being limited to a Focus Sash as its item.
Kingdra should rise to B+, where Kabutops is. I really don't think there's enough of a difference in how good they are to warrant the ranking difference. I wouldn't say one is generally better than the other, but I do use Kingdra more often than Kabu (but that may just be a preference) and in using both of them I do think that Kingdra is, at minimum, as good as Kabu.
iirc when they were first ranked (which was like six months ago or something and they've never moved since,) Kabu was higher cause:
-Priority
-Boosting move
-Resists Brave Bird
But:
-Aqua Jet isn't even a particularly good option cause Low Kick is too valuable for Ferrothorn, and for a Swift Swimmer, a priority move is generally only useful vs. other priority. I know Kabu can theoretically continue a sweep with +2 Aqua Jet after Rain stops but I have never once seen this happen.
-It's very difficult to get a chance to boost because a lot of the meta threatens it
And, Kingdra:
-Has a lot more power (sans boost) with Specs Hydro Pump
-Doesn't mind Scald (quad resist+special attacker)
-Can wear down its own counters with Scald burns, esp. AV Azumarill
-Is faster (e.g. outspeeds Scarf Keldeo, who's a bit more common after Aegis ban)
-is bulkier
And also, Chansey isn't as common anymore.
iirc when they were first ranked (which was like six months ago or something and they've never moved since,) Kabu was higher cause:
-Priority
-Boosting move
-Resists Brave Bird
But:
-Aqua Jet isn't even a particularly good option cause Low Kick is too valuable for Ferrothorn, and for a Swift Swimmer, a priority move is generally only useful vs. other priority. I know Kabu can theoretically continue a sweep with +2 Aqua Jet after Rain stops but I have never once seen this happen.
-It's very difficult to get a chance to boost because a lot of the meta threatens it
And, Kingdra:
-Has a lot more power (sans boost) with Specs Hydro Pump
-Doesn't mind Scald (quad resist+special attacker)
-Can wear down its own counters with Scald burns, esp. AV Azumarill
-Is faster (e.g. outspeeds Scarf Keldeo, who's a bit more common after Aegis ban)
-is bulkier
And also, Chansey isn't as common anymore.
Kabutops can come in on Talonflame which would otherwise make rain teams struggle against as well as resisting Extremespeed. It also has SD and priority as well as Low Kick to hit Ferrothorn who is a big annoyance to rain teams. It's also not walled by Azumarill. I think it's worth the rank difference, I think Kabutops is pretty much necessary on every rain team as a Swift Swimmer while Kingdra isn't.
I don't think you understood his post.
He said that you can rarely ever run both Low Kick and Aqua Jet on the same set. You need to choose one or the other. Low Kick indeed beats Ferrothorn, but Aqua Jet Provides priority. That in mind, however, its priority is only useful outside of rain (which it shouldn't be if you're attempting to sweep) or against other priority. He also said that though it has Swords Dance, it is difficult to set up and often doesn't make much difference in a match. You also note that it is walled by Azumarill, which Sergeant Spooky said it was, but Kingdra is capable of wearing it down with Scald. There is only one OU user of Extreme Speed (two if you count Lucario as relevant), so that's sort of irrelevant. If we assume you are carrying all of the moves you are using, you have Swords Dance / Aqua Jet / Low Kick / (Waterfall / Stone Edge), which isn't optimal. Also these calcs are necessary if you're considering Brave Bird resistance
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kabutops: 112-132 (42.9 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kabutops: 81-96 (31 - 36.7%) -- 74.6% chance to 3HKO
So basically if they're running Choice Band, you're switch-in is getting slaughtered after Life Orb damage.
He said that you can rarely ever run both Low Kick and Aqua Jet on the same set. You need to choose one or the other. Low Kick indeed beats Ferrothorn, but Aqua Jet Provides priority. That in mind, however, its priority is only useful outside of rain (which it shouldn't be if you're attempting to sweep) or against other priority. He also said that though it has Swords Dance, it is difficult to set up and often doesn't make much difference in a match. You also note that it is walled by Azumarill, which Sergeant Spooky said it was, but Kingdra is capable of wearing it down with Scald. There is only one OU user of Extreme Speed (two if you count Lucario as relevant), so that's sort of irrelevant. If we assume you are carrying all of the moves you are using, you have Swords Dance / Aqua Jet / Low Kick / (Waterfall / Stone Edge), which isn't optimal. Also these calcs are necessary if you're considering Brave Bird resistance
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kabutops: 112-132 (42.9 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kabutops: 81-96 (31 - 36.7%) -- 74.6% chance to 3HKO
So basically if they're running Choice Band, you're switch-in is getting slaughtered after Life Orb damage.
I'm saying that Kabutops is more useful to rain teams than Kingdra for the reasons I mentioned which is why I think is worth the rank difference. Sure it can't really come in on CB Talonflame but it can come in on it's other set moves bar WoW. The CB Talonflame user also would have to wait until it's about half to Brave Bird it 1 on 1 if they don't want to lose their Talonflame. It also might have Aqua Jet. So yeah It's better vs Talonflame than Kingdra. Sure it can hope for a Scald burn vs Azumarill or whatever but you're not always going to get it.
Kabu can't come in on CB Brave Bird cause it's just 2HKOed... Sharp Beak does min. 34.4% and that's a lot considering you're using LO. Kabu's flying resist is only good for not getting RK'd by TFlame, not trying to check it.
Waterfall and Stone Edge are compulsory, leaving room for only two of Aqua Jet, Low Kick and Swords Dance.
Kingdra isn't walled by AV Azu, only checked. Even 16/240 spread is 3HKOed by Hydro Pump, so it can only switch in to that once, and Scald is also kind of annoying for it.
Kabu isn't necessary, I don't know what you're talking about. I've seen a lot of good teams that just use Kingdra, or Kingdra+Omastar. Kabutops is definitely good, but compared to Kingdra I don't think it's good enough to be an entire rank above. They have pros and cons over each other but at the end of the day they're both insanely powerful in rain.
I think that Dragonite should drop to A- at this point. While it does have a notable niche in being able to soak up one hit, dragon dance, and sweep after that, it is too hard to use properly for it to be an A rank mon. The main problem obviously lies with entry hazards. Dragonite requires too much support in keeping rocks off the field to deserve its A rank. It simply can not switch in on anything without fear of losing its advantage, and without multiscale, it is KOed by a number of faster stone edges, and ice beams.
Dragonite's DD set isn't the only one it has. It also sports a NASTY banded set that can punch big holes in things early to mid game, or sweep w/extremespeed late game, multiscale or no multiscale. And it's not like needing hazards gone is an instant rank drop, either. Char-X is S rank, and it really needs rocks gone to function properly as well, so that's not enough of a reason by itself to drop something. 'Nite is still a top-tier threat, and I don't see that changing anytime soon, as even with multiscale broken, 'Nite is extremely threatening. It can still boost if it's careful, and even if it doesn't find the opportunity, it can still hit something with extremespeed before going down. This is especially true if it's holding a weakness policy, as switching into the right move can actually benefit 'Nite by giving him the equivalent of a SD boost, and then he won't even NEED to DD, and can go straight to pummeling things with +2 ESpeeds. All in all, dragonite is nowhere near the point where we should consider dropping it right now; It absolutely deserves it's A rank.
Richie BITG
Banned deucer.
Although you are correct in many ways, the point he's trying to get across is that DNite needs more removal support because of his unique ability. If you switch in to lets say, Greninja and you expect an Ice Beam, if hazards are up you won't survive the hit because his great ability is negated. Otherwise, the proof is on the paper that DNite is good. Before you ask, CB DNite destroys Greninja, so... Although, I can see it go to A- just because of the increased usage of Bulky Offense and Balanced. While this isn't a big deal it really suffers from it, as things like Lando T, Scarfchomp with Hazards, anything that can viably Will O Wisp it (Defensive Mew, Sableye, anything that can survive a hit from +1 DNite) and basically every Scarfer with base speed of 100 or higher. If you think about it, thats a lot of things that you have to run checks for. DNite also has a few differences from Mega Zard X, as you quote about. Zard X only needs Hazard Support, which every team with a weakness to rocks HAS to run, so thats normal. ZardX is a one man army anyways; it has many sets, and most are really good and counter/check differently. Besides, most of Zard's counters/checks are countered by Lando T and are passive.
You can't compare ZardX to DNite.
But, DNite is still a force to be reckoned with, just not as much with the meta shift, with Stall being inferior and Bulky Offense and Balanced being considered the best. Even after all that, I'm on the fence for DNite for A-, but he's still just good enough for A considering all the pokemon at A.
Also, I have returned in the most peaceful way possible. I am sorry for past posts.
Double edit: Gren Ice Beam KO's even with Multiscale lmao.
Drag's weak SpD won't help it, but ill cut it some slack cause its STAB and 4x.
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I don't think you understand what I mean. Heracross' typing was great during the sand era but sand usage has died down tremendously and the amount of opportunities it has to switch in are very limited against the most common and viable mons on the meta, despite it's decent bulk. Gardevoirs typing, in tandem with a higher speed, allows it to actually stay in on a wider variety of mons. And no, there are very few mons that both outspeed and KO Garde, even if they resist one of its moves. Of the mons you mentioned, only Rachi, Victini and Mega Scizor are 100% able to win, the rest must revenge kill, which is kind of a moot point. I'm by no means saying Hera is bad, in a slower meta Hera would be leagues better but as it stands Heracross relies way too much on prediction to truly break teams because of a lower speed, Garde is safe to spam Hyper voice and then use coverage when a resist not named Victini Scizor or Rachi switches in. In simpler terms, Garde threatens more mons thanks to a higher base speed, there are far less mons that both ko Garde, are faster and can switch in on its spam move and Gardevoir is in general more forgiving of a misprediction.
The whole switchout thing you mentioned is also kinda moot. Realistically, if the guy forces you out, the ball is in his court, you're making momentum seem like it means nothing when in reality momentum is the key to winning any match, aside from matchup advantage. If the opponent brings in a threat, you're forced to bring in something to take a hit, meaning he can proceed to do whatever he wants. As an example lets use Heracross and Lati@s. You switch out to your best way of dealing with it, lets say Ferrothorn, who is forced to eat a psyshock. The next turn, you know he is either going to his [insert Ferrothorn counter] or go for HP Fire. You are again on the backfoot until you take a risk and predict his switch. That's all assuming the opponent doesnt predict as well. This all stems from needing to switch out. In Gardevoirs case, lets say the opponent brings in a Heatran on the predicted Psyshock/Hyper Voice (not a hard counter, as we're talking on the same terms as Latios - Heracross), taking it well. Due to Gardes higher speed, it has less of a reason to switch out compared to Heracross and can choose to go for Focus Blast, if you try to play around by switching to a fighting resist you are essentially conceding that Gardevior is harder to deal with and requires more preparation to beat.
also @ above post Richie, the return of?
Thanks for the considerate response, I do appreciate it. But before this becomes any kind of back and forth about DNite vs. Char-X, I never meant to DIRECTLY compare DNite w/ Char-X, just point out that if we agreed rocks were enough reason to drop something then technically we'd have to drop Char-X as well, and honestly, that's just silly, to put it mildly. That's the only point I was making.
To your points about DNite, really nothing you're saying is wrong. I think it's easy to agree that DNite is a huge threat, but has his drawbacks. Status is a pretty big one, and even though DNite can run lum, that comes at the cost of weakness policy or a band, so you really have to consider your item choice carefully, as it'll determine what DNite can cover, and what covers him as well. Really, we all know what Dragonite can do, and I don't think he's gotten any worse at it, so I don't think he should drop; It's that simple.
I know its late but I think there are a few things which are stated that I don't quite agree with. Conk forces out the mew and is able to beat it 1v1 if its item has not been knocked off previously. You said mew should wait till it gets its item removed aka knocked off. The most common knock off users that come immediately to mind are bisharp, landorus t and lando i. Mew doesnt enjoy knock off from bisharp (unless it gets burned, to which the bisharp user can easily bait the WoW and switch into conk), it can't take knock off from lando i then e powers (if using the stall breaker mew set) and lando t usually just u turns off of it (into conk). Finally burned conk still does significant damage to mew w/o an item -
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 248-292 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Meaning that it can beat the mew 1v1 and can get mew to the point where most things can take it out (since conk is slower). Mew also can't softboil stall it, like you mentioned. So i think conk has a rather favourable match up vs mew.
Heracross does have a similar bulk stat vs conk, the calcs are relatively similar, in fact hera has a slight edge. However, hera misses out on a HP draining move i.e. drain punch. It also lacks STAB priority with mach punch. Its fighting stab lowers its defences and its bug stab is inaccurate. Yes it does have a lot more speed than conk. But uninvested, said speed isn't very useful. You aren't outspending anything of note, in fact you get outsped by mons like bisharp. In fact knock off + iron head is enough to kill hera after rocks are up if it is running a 252 HP 252+ atk spread. Which is catastrophic, considering one of fighting mons niche is that they can absorb knock offs and deal with bisharps. And if you invest in speed, you lose out on bulk so that gengar can 2hko after rocks. Or you lose out on attack so that mew can stall you out. Even if conk can only switch in on thundy, grenny and gengar once, it is still relatively tough to deal with vs HO. As it has a very high attack stat and can drain back lost HP vs something like a keldeo, trying to absorb a knock off/ice punch.
tl;dr Conk Beats mew 1v1. Conk is the better AV user than Hera.
You didn't understand me. Mew will get his item removed by Conkeldurr. Also, i was talking about physically defensive Mew, should have clarified that. As for some notable Pokemon that Heracross outspeeds: Azumarill (very important), Clefable, Mega Scizor without max Speed, Mega Venusaur (which beats Conkeldurr btw, but not Heracross), and Suicune. And if you want to invest in Speed, which is a viable option, you can outspeed a lot more stuff, including Bisharp and Breloom.
AV Heracross can also hit harder due to having significantly higher BP moves to abuse like Close Combat and Megahorn and has better base Special bulk (80/95 vs. 105/65).
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Conkeldurr: 231-273 (65.8 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 172-203 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
A spread of 12 HP, 252 Attack, 108 Special Defense, and 136 Speed will let you outspeed Adamant Bisharp/Breloom while giving you a nearly identical bulk.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 113-134 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 12 HP / 108 SpD Assault Vest Heracross: 101-121 (33.2 - 39.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Conkeldurr: 231-273 (65.8 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 172-203 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
A spread of 12 HP, 252 Attack, 108 Special Defense, and 136 Speed will let you outspeed Adamant Bisharp/Breloom while giving you a nearly identical bulk.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 113-134 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 12 HP / 108 SpD Assault Vest Heracross: 101-121 (33.2 - 39.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
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Sorry for making this a short post, but I'm quickly typing this up and I had one question: How is Togekiss B- Rank? I mean, I love seeing it at a decent rank, it's my favorite Pokemon, and I would absolutely love seeing it used in high level play (or taking it to high level play LOL) but what viable niches does it provide that it can justify itself being in the same tier as Weavile and Gothitelle? All I see is the fact that it is a Fairy with Defog, and then it loses much of the niche provided by other Fairies such as Gardevoir and Clefable by not hitting as hard and gaining several weaknesses with Flying type, allowing it to be beaten by many things that other Fairies wall. Stallbreaking sets are outclassed by Clefable (same with defensive sets tbh) and offensive by Gardevoir, or even Clefable again. So basically, my main question is, how can Togekiss be justified in B-, and if it is justified, how can it see high level play similar to other mons in B-, such as Doublade, Cresselia, or Gothitelle?
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Ok thanks for clearing that up, that makes a lot more sense now. You also inspired me to edit up my old NastyPass Toge team and use it again (might as well). That LO Toge set sounds interesting, but looks like it needs heavy team support to work. I don't want to clutter up the thread more than it is, so I'm just editing this into my original post. But thanks Aragorn the King !
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