Greninja [QC: 2/3]

[Reymedy]

I was thinking about shadow sneak and it can actually be pretty useful on greninja especially with the surprise factor. However, I think that spikes should be slapped on the main offensive set since the spikes set is essentially just the offensive set With spikes added, and i think it's a subpar option on an offensive set, a waste of a moveslot, and there are a lot of other spikers that could be used like klefki, froslass, and accelgor who have priority, better typing, more support moves, and speed respectively. In the other options I would put that greninja can function well as a suicide or anti-lead with high speed and access to spikes, toxic spikes, and taunt, which has some niches over the previously mentioned pokemon. Overall, this analysis is fine

You miss a key advantage that Greg has over all these Spikers : offensive presence (forces a lot of switches, and WAY BETTER coverage and power than any of the Spikers you mention) and ability to directly threaten of KO the main defoggers in the tier.
Which means, that your set, when you play Spikes Greg, has to be focused on preventing Defog (hence the bigger importance of DPulse). These two sets have really different roles, and you'll build your team in a a different way depending on which set you use.
I think your point is fair, but the way you analyse the two sets is very different, so it's more simple if we split them, imo.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Man, okay.

havokchomp123 , tell you what. Since you're going out of your own way to prove it's good and don't seem to believe that a Torrent set is a bad idea period, post Pokemon Showdown replays where your set actually contributes significantly to a battle. Redirect all replays to private conversation with me (click my avatar and then click "Start a Conversation"), don't post them here because it's taking up a lot of space, and make sure you're at a decent rank (somewhere above elo 1500) or your opinions will have been for naught.

 

[Jukain]

TRC I think I've been bugging you to do this for like a month by now, you've had more than enough time to get working on this. I don't want to reassign this but it also has to get done; you have 1 week to update the set/comments at the least for ORAS. The set should look like something along the lines of this:

Offensive
########
name: Offensive
move 1: Ice Beam
move 2: Gunk Shot
move 3: Low Kick / Hydro Pump
move 4: Dark Pulse / Grass Knot / Hidden Power Fire
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe

 

[boltsandbombers]

Offensive
########
name: Offensive
move 1: Ice Beam
move 2: Gunk Shot
move 3: Low Kick / Hydro Pump
move 4: Dark Pulse / Grass Knot / Hidden Power Fire
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe

Is HP Fire really worth a slash? The two targets for it are mega scizor and Ferrothorn, the latter is 2HKOed by Low Kick and the former is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump (correct me if I'm wrong). Also, you lose the speed tie versus opposing greninja which can be crucial. Dont get me wrong, its a great coverage move, but I personally feel it should just have a big mention in moves.

 

[Politoad]

Is HP Fire really worth a slash? The two targets for it are mega scizor and Ferrothorn, the latter is 2HKOed by Low Kick and the former is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump (correct me if I'm wrong). Also, you lose the speed tie versus opposing greninja which can be crucial. Dont get me wrong, its a great coverage move, but I personally feel it should just have a big mention in moves.

Yes, beating Ferrothorn and Mega-Scizor is really important; Low Kick may 2HKO it yes but iirc HP Fire OHKOes it, plus you don't have to take Iron Barbs and eventual Rocky Helmet damage. For Scizor, you cannot afford to miss a Hydro Pump, and HP Fire OHKOes it too.

 

[Jukain]

Yes HP Fire is a good option especially if you have issues with those two Pokemon.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Yes, beating Ferrothorn is really crucial; Low Kick may 2HKO it yes but iirc HP Fire OHKOes it, plus you don't have to take Iron Barbs and eventual Rocky Helmet damage. For Scizor, you cannot afford to miss a Hydro Pump.

Fair enough, that makes sense.
Almost OHKOes :P
216 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 328-390 (93.1 - 110.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Politoad]

Fair enough, that makes sense.
Almost OHKOes :P
216 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 328-390 (93.1 - 110.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah almost, but taking Iron Barbs is just bad as well as Gyro Ball doing a whole lot more, and Power Whip doing a whole lot more with Low Kick.

 

[Martin]

TRC I think I've been bugging you to do this for like a month by now, you've had more than enough time to get working on this. I don't want to reassign this but it also has to get done; you have 1 week to update the set/comments at the least for ORAS. The set should look like something along the lines of this:

Offensive
########
name: Offensive
move 1: Ice Beam
move 2: Gunk Shot
move 3: Low Kick / Hydro Pump
move 4: Dark Pulse / Grass Knot / Hidden Power Fire
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe

TBH, 40 attack isn't needed. The highest HP you should ever see on Azumarill is 240 (requires same investment due to weird formula, but keep reading for why it doesn't need it), but even if you WERE to see a 252 HP one, you don't need any investment to OHKO after SR (0 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 390-460 (97.2 - 114.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock). The fact is that Greninja will probably have Rocks support. Additionally, Clefable isn't coming in safely unless you miss a Gunk Shot anyway (4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 283-338 (71.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery or guaranteed OHKO after any other attack) and so I feel that the 40 attack spread should only be mentioned in set details tbh for teams without SR.

Also, I feel that Low Kick Greninja has to play slightly differently from the standard set as you can't play as aggressively with Low Kick as Greninja loses the attack which is what makes it so hard to switch in to on the special side (Hydro Pump) due to the lower stat and lower power, and because of this I feel it should be separated from the main set. If I were doing the analysis, I'd split it up like this (unless I get swayed on why they shouldn't be separate):

Split

Offensive
########
name: Offensive
move 1: Ice Beam
move 2: Gunk Shot
move 3: Hydro Pump
move 4: Dark Pulse / Grass Knot / Hidden Power Fire
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Usage Tips
========

-Can play relatively aggressive once its in

Low Kick
########
name: Low Kick
move 1: Ice Beam
move 2: Gunk Shot
move 3: Low Kick
move 4: Dark Pulse / Grass Knot / Hidden Power Fire
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe

Usage Tips
========

-Play more conservatively than you would the 'offensive' set

This is just my thoughts though. Feel free to prove me wrong, but that is how I feel.

On another note: thoughts on Expert Belt for set details on the offensive set? Greninja's huge coverage means that it will often get the boost while saving on LO recoil as, while Greninja is frail on the whole, it has just enough bulk to take one or two weaker hits, but this requires it to be at relatively high health. This is where Expert Belt would come in, but the reason it won't ever be main slashed is due to it missing out on damage vs neutral targets (as if you didn't know already)

 

[The Great Gastly]

I think a physically oriented EV spread should be included as an option in the Offensive set. (244 Atk / 12 SAtk / 252 Spe with Naive Nature)

Specially oriented is generally better, but a physical spread could be a superior option for certain teams, and is completely viable imo. :)

Here's a post that explains it better than I ever could: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/greninja.3489907/page-60#post-5844902

 

[Ptyra]

I propose 92 Atk / 164 SpA / 252 Vit as the main spread.

The Atk EVs allow to OHKO SpD Heatran with Low Kick after SR, which is very useful because Greninja hates taking a Lava Plume in return.
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 160-189 (56.1 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Moreover, it offers good mixed offensives skills.
Here some examples :




164 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 133-156 (37 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

164 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 250-296 (83 - 98.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

164 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 281-330 (93 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (easy OHKO after a LO recoil)

92 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 164-192 (45.6 - 53.4%) -- 42.6% chance to 2HKO

92 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 187-220 (67.2 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

92 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 330-390 (99.6 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

92 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 195-230 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

164 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sableye: 134-160 (44 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

164 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Mega Scizor: 134-160 (43.2 - 51.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

164 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. +1 240 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro: 166-198 (42.4 - 50.6%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[trc]

so i'm considering splitting the offensive set into specially biased mix and physically biased mix ie:

pump / ibeam / gunk / dpulse

and

lkick / ipunch or ice beam / gunk / gk or pulse

with obviously extra slashes in there but this is quick. thoughts?

 

[Albacore]

Ice Punch... moving on...

I definitely agree with the set Jukain posted. Hydro Pump is still good obviously, it's your most powerful STAB after all, but Low Kick's ability to hit both Heatran and Ferrothorn in one slot is just fantastic given how common they are on balance. Low Kick also hits Kyu-B and the increasingly common, it's just overall better coverage even if it's not as spammable as Hydro Pump. Beam/Pulse/Kick or Pump/Gunk with a bunch of stuff slashed behind DPulse is the way I would do it (ESens is still pretty neat b/c of Tentacruel), I don't really see why there needs to be separate sets. Not too sure about the EVs though I would still run 252 / 216 SpA because Ice Beam is still your most spammable STAB and you need about max SpA for Jirachi but somewhere around 100 Atk is an option for 2HKO even the most physically defensive Ferrothorns w/ Low Kick.

 

[trc]

ice punch does much more to latis for physical sets including ohkoing latias after sr. the sets would be separated because one has a specially oriented ev spread and one physical... it isn't a difficult concept to grasp. ive already talked to jukain about splitting the sets (he suggested it) im just asking for feedback.

 

[Hootie]

I think I remember back in Gen V that Kyurem-B had two mixed sets as well: one that was physically oriented and one that was specially oriented. I know it's not exactly relevant to the discussion, but I'm just throwing it out there that this isn't out of the ordinary as far analyses go. For Greninja, each set has its own merits and mentioning a different EV spread in addition to mentioning alternative moves (In this, case Ice Punch/Ice Beam and Hydro Pump/Low Kick) within the same set makes the analysis sloppy and confuses new users (aka the target audience for these). Idk if this all makes since, but I'm just trying to explain this idea in the coherent manner. That said, I personally don't think it's bad idea to make two mixed sets.

 

[Politoad]

Off the point, I think Porygon2 should definitely receive its place in C&C. What it does:

216 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 97-114 (25.9 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 125-148 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It can keep recovering after and after, and its Thunderbolt / Tri Attack do this:

0 SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 200-236 (70.1 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 133-157 (46.6 - 55%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO

It also traces Protean, which can be nice in some situations. After rocks:

216 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 97-114 (25.9 - 30.4%) -- 9.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 125-148 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[boltsandbombers]

Off the point, I think Porygon2 should definitely receive its place in C&C. What it does:

216 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 97-114 (25.9 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 125-148 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It can keep recovering after and after, and its Thunderbolt / Tri Attack do this:

0 SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 200-236 (70.1 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 133-157 (46.6 - 55%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO

It also traces Protean, which can be nice in some situations. After rocks:

216 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 97-114 (25.9 - 30.4%) -- 9.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 125-148 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Wouldnt P2 just be along with specially bulky mons in general? P2, Alomomola, Chansey, etc. They all do basically the same thing, just tank a hit and hit back with a status or coverage move in the case of p2.

 

[Martin]

I personally like the idea of splitting them into physically-based and specially based. They both play very differently, require different spreads and they are both very viable sets. This is what I think the analysis should look like imo:

Hide

Specially Based Mixed Attacker
########
name: Specially Based Mixed Attacker
move 1: Ice Beam
move 2: Gunk Shot
move 3: Hydro Pump
move 4: Dark Pulse / Grass Knot / Hidden Power Fire
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Naive

Set Details
========

A spread of 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe can be used on teams without hazard support, but it isn't usually needed as Greninja OHKOs 252 HP Azumarill after Stealth Rock with Gunk Shot anyway.

Physically Based Mixed Attacker
########
name: Physically Based Mixed Attacker
move 1: Gunk Shot
move 2: Low Kick
move 3: Ice Beam / Ice Punch
move 4: Dark Pulse / Grass Knot
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb
evs: 192 Atk / 64 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Naive

Moves
========

Ice Punch OHKOs 72 HP Latias 75% of the time after Stealth Rock, or 100% of the time if you add in one round of LO recoil (or 2 rounds without SR) or a little extra damage from another source (e.g. Volt Switch), Ice Beam OHKOs PhysDef Landorus-T while Ice Punch does not.

Set Details
========

EVs OHKO Stallbreaker Mew 100% of the time with Dark Pulse
If Grass Knot is used, a simple 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe will suffice unless SpD Suicune is problematic for your team (not that you will ever see it, but it just needs the 64 SpA spread to be 2HKOed anyway), as SpD Gyarados and standard CroCune are 2HKOed with no investment (before a Calm Mind for the latter, but going for CroCune after a Calm Mind isn't worth it because it needs 248 investment to guarantee the 2HKO after Leftovers)

Spikes
########
name: Spikes
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Gunk Shot
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Low Kick
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb
evs: 88 Atk / 168 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Naive

Set Details
========

-EVs live Adamant SashLoom's Mach Punch from full health while OHKOing SpD Heatran 93.8% of the time after 1 spike
-if you want more power, 164 Atk / 92 Def / 252 can be used to live jolly SashLoom's Mach Punch from full health, fainting to adamant variants 50% of the time. Also guarantees the OHKO on SpD Heatran after 1 spike instead of having a 6.2% chance to miss the KO.

The spikes set was just based around what works well on paper as I haven't used the set enough, so it is a heavy WIP. The spread is probably inefficient too, but don't quote me on that as I'm not the best in the world at defensive EVs. I just decided to put defensive EVs instead of Focus Sash when I reallised how small the chance of jolly scarf Landorus-T OHKOing with Earthquake was, making Sash somewhat purposeless and Greninja not really needing full offensive investment with Life Orb.

 

[Punchshroom]

You should also probably edit your Moves section to actually match the damn movesets :P

You can also make a note of Spikes Ninja's perk in threatening almost, if not all hazard removers in the tier.

 

[Crestfall]

Not sure if this is worth adding, but I think noting that you lose in speed "ties" to enemy (non-HP fire) Greninja on HP fire sets is important. Given how much Greninja was around the situation comes up pretty often.

 

[havokchomp123]

Poor Greninja man, at least i can still use you in smash

 

[trc]

rip in piece