Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[blinkie]

I'd feel relieved to see any other Mega than Salamence in team preview right now

Choice Scarf Infiltrator Noivern says F U Mega Mence
Honestly though mega Mence is still way better than Gallade because mega Mence has a ton more bulk than Gallade which is further helped by Intimidate pre mega and also it gets roost and for some reason Refresh is kinda catching on.
Its disgustingly easy to steamroll people with mence for example SubRoost + DD or Refresh+Roost wrecks teams, you can come in on mons set up boosts and a Sub and take them out without a scratch by stalling out moves like Stone edge or even Rock slide misses. You can basically have mence, slap on 5 trappers and autowin as soon as you get rid of a few mons, and this is significantly easier to do than to help mega Gallade sweep. Maybe it would be better to bring up the topic of Gallade for S when Mence is gone...

Speaking of S-rank mons I think Keldeo could drop down to A+. Its Specs set is no good anymore because of a bad speed tier in the fast meta. 110 is the new 100 and now you are forced to run Scarf and still get outsped by Scarf Gengar, scarf Latis, and SCARF NOIVERN. Being choice locked isn't really good in this meta anyways, as its STAB combo gets less and less spammable with mega Mence, mega Latias, mega Bro, Altaria, blabla running around.

 

[Alfalfa]

Lol what he's said is exactly correct, and this is coming from the guy (me) who has indeed extensively used mega gallade (its the first one i used lol).
Its ability to fire off a single attack is overstated, its bulk is overestimated, its speedtier isn't as relevant as it used to be, its ability is horseshit, and its defensive typing blows.
We haven't even mentioned how you need to find a place and time to safely mega evolve because you're jumping all the way down from 80.

Ultimately, if we go by your train of thought Albacore , we assume that because mega gallade is bulky, it is good against offensive teams too.
Fact is, its not as bulky as you'd like it to be. It lacks reliable recovery, it lacks great resists, it lacks a great defensive ability (before or after mevo), and to top it off it lacks good priority. Ultimately, you can take ONE hit against offense, and you usually want to use that one hit to set up. Unfortunately, since without priority and in a less than ideal speed tier, even after you set up you'll never really sweep a competent offense team being handled by a player with actual brains. Sure, it looks pretty bulky on paper, and that's what hyped me up too! But ultimately in practice its reduced to a hit-and-run playstyle, only taking a hit when the game depends on it.

So now that we've covered its bulk, lets move onto its actual speed, and prowess against offense. Basically, its not as good as you make it sound. It takes one hit perhaps, and can use that turn to blow holes with CC or set up against offense which is usually fruitless on its own. Unfortunately, there are many many more relevant mons that have entered the 110 speed tier, such as mega diancie and mega metagross, all of which have the capacity to revenge kill you, forcing you to rely on a speed tie to get past them (lets be real sneak ain't doing shit to metagross lmao). Sure, lati@s often run hp fire which means you win against them, but then you have to take into account their scarfed forms are catching on too. Other scarved mons like keldeo are also starting to get some attention, and ultimately offense has gotten faster. now u have mega gallade, a mon that can take a hit and hit back at best, lacks priority, has many weaknesses, and resists zero relevant priority moves bar mach. its matchup against offense is REALLY overstated.

Finally, its matchup against stall kinda blows then the best kind of stall these days always carries your hard counter. Lol have fun. Even megas that fit on bulky offense teams, like mega slowbro and mega altaria, do a pretty good job and giving mega gallade a hard time.

I probably said it before but lack of bulk+priority+useful ability leaves it less useful against offense than one would desire and the omnipotence of your hard counter on stall teams leaves it pretty subpar there too. Its an A+ mon, not S.


that's probably me :3

I think you hit it on the nail Srn. It is mostly overhyped, from my experience with it. Now Fighting / Psychic has useful resists in Fighting and Rock, but it really lacks enough bulk to make use of them, so having good resists really is not that helpful for it. It really wants more speed, since it is in a crowded speed tier and gets out-sped by a lot of important Pokemon, such as Greninja. It is really good, but to put it in S Rank is overstating its capabilities.

 

[zbr]

I think you hit it on the nail Srn. It is mostly overhyped, from my experience with it. Now Fighting / Psychic has useful resists in Fighting and Rock, but it really lacks enough bulk to make use of them, so having good resists really is not that helpful for it. It really wants more speed, since it is in a crowded speed tier and gets out-sped by a lot of important Pokemon, such as Greninja. It is really good, but to put it in S Rank is overstating its capabilities.

I agree with this. MGallade is a mon that actually molds itself with the meta. With the current state, you would of course expect a lot of people running full on offensive spreads with SD CC in their moveset to make full use of it's speed and power. It goes without saying that the most obvious thing for gallade is to go head in. However, that is not to say it is overhyped and lack relevant bulk (for argument's sake, you can easily augment the fact that it is weaker on the physical side by adding Will O Wisp. However the opportunity cost is that you either forgo your 3rd attack coverage or SD). The main reason why I say this is because much like Srn I agree that it's bulk is a letdown when it comes to matches against offence since you want to make full use of it to set up. This monster is definitely worth the hype because there are many unexplored territories with this mon especially since the meta is still so unstable (unlike something like say, MegaGross, who's role is clearly defined and it's movepool isn't as varied as MGallade). Once the meta stabilizes and we see a trend of stall (much like beginning of XY) rising back up again, we can expect to see this mon and it's multitude of options surprise us.

 

[skies]

I'm really on the fence about Mega Metagross. On one hand, it has an expansive movepool, high Attack, high Speed, fantastic bulk, and a wonderful ability, but I'm just not sure it is deserving of S Rank. It's a large threat, but it has a tough time pre-mega because of its horrible base 70 Speed, which can be easily taken advantage of on this first turn of mega evolving. This isn't the largest concern, really, but it's a concern nonetheless. I've recently been testing out a SmashPass team featuring Mega Metagross as a receiver, and it is probably one of the best in the entire game. I know that "it gets passed a Shell Smash, so it's a god" is not an argument, but I felt it had to be mentioned. It fits really easily on offensive teams because of its nice resistances, though its weaknesses are apparent. It has inherit flaws holding it back from going to S Rank, a rank I feel should be exclusive to Mega Salamence btw. For now, at least, keep Mega Metagross at A+.

 

[mertyville]

I really can't wait until we get to B ranking. I didn't say anything about how pointless the arguement of "oppotunity cost" is because that would only hold us back from actually giving other pokemon the rightful ranking.

I would rather want to give more focus on the pokemon that didn't get much discussion like Latias (it does not seem like we got enough arguements to actually move away from S and A+).
Has somebody an argument against Latias to drop to A because besides the Scarf set and the cost of a Mega Slot, I see no good reason to use Latias over it.

- Life Orb set: Sure, it hits harder but if you really care that much about damage output, why wouldn't you use Latios instead?
- Calm Mind set: Mega Latias can set up easier thanks to its significant overall bulk.
- No Knock Off bait: Self explanitory. Sure, people can just go back to Crunch > Knock Off on most things because of the large amount of Psychic Megas, but that is prove enough that Mega Latias has become that much of a threat now (alongside Mega Slowbro).

To clearify (because some people might think I am trash talking Latias), I don't say Latias is useless or it is completely outclassed (otherwise I wouldn't suggest a drop to just A) but what I am saying instead is, the Meta Game got a lot faster and a few sets that Mega Latias can run better seem just to be that much more appealing than using Latias over it (even for the cost of a Mega Slot).

 

[Gloating]

IMO Latias shouldn't drop because Healing Wish is amazing in this meta more so than it was in XY. It's better than Latios in ORAS in my opinion. Makes Pokemon like Mega Salamence and Mega Metagross all the more deadlier. I don't really know what else to say. Don't want to make this a one liner but Latias is one of the best Pokemon to use on Hyper Offense teams because it checks a ton of Pokemon, provides Defog support and the ability to bring back a Pokemon back to full health which is basically a max revive all in one slot.

 

[AM]

I really can't wait until we get to B ranking. I didn't say anything about how pointless the arguement of "oppotunity cost" is because that would only hold us back from actually giving other pokemon the rightful ranking.

I would rather want to give more focus on the pokemon that didn't get much discussion like Latias (it does not seem like we got enough arguements to actually move away from S and A+).
Has somebody an argument against Latias to drop to A because besides the Scarf set and the cost of a Mega Slot, I see no good reason to use Latias over it.

- Life Orb set: Sure, it hits harder but if you really care that much about damage output, why wouldn't you use Latios instead?
- Calm Mind set: Mega Latias can set up easier thanks to its significant overall bulk.
- No Knock Off bait: Self explanitory. Sure, people can just go back to Crunch > Knock Off on most things because of the large amount of Psychic Megas, but that is prove enough that Mega Latias has become that much of a threat now (alongside Mega Slowbro).

To clearify (because some people might think I am trash talking Latias), I don't say Latias is useless or it is completely outclassed (otherwise I wouldn't suggest a drop to just A) but what I am saying instead is, the Meta Game got a lot faster and a few sets that Mega Latias can run better seem just to be that much more appealing than using Latias over it (even for the cost of a Mega Slot).

The reason why I disagree with this nomination is because the purpose between both Latias' regular form and that of the mega serve generally different functions and can only be compared within type for the most part. Here are some basic differences between the two. Obviously I'm missing more but it's just a general idea why only so much can be compared. It should be established that one isn't necessarily better or easier to implement than the other.

Mega Latias' famed Stored Power set is stopped cold in its tracks by various threats which include but are not limited to M-Gallade, Bisharp, Tyranitar, strong physical attackers such as M-Salamence, M-Pinsir, M-Scizor, etc. The fact that regular Latias can't use this set as effectively is both a blessing and a burden, as it provides more leeway in what tools it can provide to its teammates for them to function and as such isn't as easily threatened by these various threats depending on coverage. The team itself is encompassed around M-Latias to handle these issues which as such focuses the teambuilding aspect of basically protecting M-Latias. This now puts more constraint on teambuilding in making sure your win con is able to achieve said win. Latias on the other hand is generally considered a component towards a win con either from a core perspective or the win con established by an individual mon. This can be done through the use of Defog to remove detrimental hazards or Healing Wish, which is even more of a blessing now to the offensive mons who appreciate this support due to a lack of self recovery from burn or being worn down. Due to the nature of why you would consider using M-Latias in the first place, it's safe to assume those mentioned support moves are off the table as the focus is making M-Latias win herself, not the teammates so to speak. The only thing really going for M-Latias over Latias besides bulk and the obvious Stored Power set to a degree is a 3 attack/Roost set which at that point you would be better off using M-Latios or even LO variants of both Lati twins due to a much more immediate offensive presence provided by them. It can also use non Stored Power and non Sub sets more effectively as well due to bulk but this has its own obvious issues such as being prone to status.

As far as the Knock Off thing is concerned that isn't necessarily true simply cause of M-Latias being relevant. For example your standard Ttar sets are still standard and M-Lati hasn't really changed this. The same things that threatened Latias are still threatening to M-Latias, M-Latias just has a little more bulk to survive a bit longer or sweep also hiding behind the fact it's running much more defensive spreads than regular Latias would. So in reality there is still indeed a cost to using M-Latias equal to more or less regular Latias based more on the different functions each one serves. Latias can be implemented while not taking up the mega slot and can provide ample utility to its teammates very efficiently in the meta so it's definitely fine to keep it at A+.

 

[Karxrida]

Can we please stop bringing up SS rank or whatever for Mega Salamence? We really don't need rank inflation and if we wanted to show how amazing it is we can always just demote everything else by 1 rank (except Greninja).

 

[Wizarus]

Yeah, Healing Wish is no joke, and Latias is the fastest Non-mega viable user of it . With all of these powerful Mega running around, bringing them in in full health, status cleared, and completely unharmed is one of the best moves you can do in this game. The ability to remove hazards, pivot, and hit reasonably hard just adds to her viability.

 

[Gloating]

Can we please stop bringing up SS rank or whatever for Mega Salamence? We really don't need rank inflation and if we wanted to show how amazing it is we can always just demote everything else by 1 rank (except Greninja).

Considering there's +/- in the other ranks. There's no harm in making S+ to seperate Mega Salamence and Greninja from the rest imo but it's whatever.

 

[Machi]

Considering there's +/- in the other ranks. There's no harm in making S+ to seperate Mega Salamence and Greninja from the rest imo but it's whatever.

They've already had that discussion before they aren't going to create nuances about what is already considered the best rank, creating +/- defeats the purpose of why it is considered the best rank. Instead, it does have the advantage, once the metagame settles, of being considered a closed case for discussion so that it becomes a relatively stable ranking. Regardless, the discussion has been made as to why S rank remains the way it is and that isn't exactly what is being asked here.

 

[TheTraininator]

C- Rank

Pidgeot (Mega)

Uh-huh... and what are we discussing right now?

S and A+ ranks discussion

...Jesus, this is going to be the longest wait EVER.



Well, since I can't right this wrong RIGHT now, I might as well be productive and talk about Gallade. It's very close to an S rank threat but unfortunately, I think it just fall short. It draws a lot of parallels to Mega Lucario in a lot of ways, so I'll use it to draw parallels to. First of all, even with higher attack, its STAB outright doesn't hit as hard:

252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 235-277 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course, all that matter is not how hard it hits in comparison, but if it hits hard ENOUGH. Oftentimes, it's just a little too short:

252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 133-157 (39.8 - 47%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gallade: 306-360 (110.4 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 138-163 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 174-206 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It fails to net 2HKOs on two of OUs biggest physical walls, who can either respond by OHKOing it in the case of Skarmory or 2HKOing it while using Wish + Protect to outlast it in the case of Clefable. Both of them also win if they switch into a Swords Dance as well, Skarmory barely surviving the following CC and Clefable obviously not giving a shit due to Unaware.

I'm going to continue this post tomorrow because screw it, it's past 12 in the morning and I need to get up early tomorrow. Anyway, as much as I want Gallade in S it has too many flaws to be perfect.

EDIT: Ok, I'm back for a little bit. Now we need to tackle Mega Gallade's speed issue. Obviously base 110 is great, but it does have to start off at a meager base 80 without priority to compensate. Of course this isn't crippling as we see with other Megas like Gardevoir and Metagross, but this does make it harder for Gallade to find Pokemon it can threaten out. For instance, normally Mamoswine would be easy for Mega Gallade to take an Ice Shard from and revenge with CC, but on te turn it Mega Evolves it has to risk the speed tie. And if it loses...

244 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gallade: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Mega Gallade takes a huge hit, possibly OHKOing it with very little prior damage. Of course, there is a chance you'll win the speed tie against Mamoswine... but not against these guys:

252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gallade: 227-269 (81.9 - 97.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gallade: 237-280 (85.5 - 101%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(I know Specs Keldeo isn't as common in ORAS, but you have to eat a Hydro Pump either way and... are you really willing to take the risk?)

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gallade: 298-352 (107.5 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yeah, Pokemon you could easily revenge or at least due hefty chunks to that you can't until you have Mega'd previously, a litberty you don't always have. Aaand now I need to go again so I will rap it up in a finalized part 3 later.

 

[mertyville]

The reason why I disagree with this nomination is because the purpose between both Latias' regular form and that of the mega serve generally different functions and can only be compared within type for the most part. Here are some basic differences between the two. Obviously I'm missing more but it's just a general idea why only so much can be compared. It should be established that one isn't necessarily better or easier to implement than the other.

Mega Latias' famed Stored Power set is stopped cold in its tracks by various threats which include but are not limited to M-Gallade, Bisharp, Tyranitar, strong physical attackers such as M-Salamence, M-Pinsir, M-Scizor, etc. The fact that regular Latias can't use this set as effectively is both a blessing and a burden, as it provides more leeway in what tools it can provide to its teammates for them to function and as such isn't as easily threatened by these various threats depending on coverage. The team itself is encompassed around M-Latias to handle these issues which as such focuses the teambuilding aspect of basically protecting M-Latias. This now puts more constraint on teambuilding in making sure your win con is able to achieve said win. Latias on the other hand is generally considered a component towards a win con either from a core perspective or the win con established by an individual mon. This can be done through the use of Defog to remove detrimental hazards or Healing Wish, which is even more of a blessing now to the offensive mons who appreciate this support due to a lack of self recovery from burn or being worn down. Due to the nature of why you would consider using M-Latias in the first place, it's safe to assume those mentioned support moves are off the table as the focus is making M-Latias win herself, not the teammates so to speak. The only thing really going for M-Latias over Latias besides bulk and the obvious Stored Power set to a degree is a 3 attack/Roost set which at that point you would be better off using M-Latios or even LO variants of both Lati twins due to a much more immediate offensive presence provided by them. It can also use non Stored Power and non Sub sets more effectively as well due to bulk but this has its own obvious issues such as being prone to status.

As far as the Knock Off thing is concerned that isn't necessarily true simply cause of M-Latias being relevant. For example your standard Ttar sets are still standard and M-Lati hasn't really changed this. The same things that threatened Latias are still threatening to M-Latias, M-Latias just has a little more bulk to survive a bit longer or sweep also hiding behind the fact it's running much more defensive spreads than regular Latias would. So in reality there is still indeed a cost to using M-Latias equal to more or less regular Latias based more on the different functions each one serves. Latias can be implemented while not taking up the mega slot and can provide ample utility to its teammates very efficiently in the meta so it's definitely fine to keep it at A+.

Well, then let me ask you following questions:
1. Does the cost of Mega Slot takes away the viable option of running a supportive Mega Latias set with Defog etc.
2. Is the Calm Mind set really limited to use Stored Power just because of the said win condition forces you to run "only" Dark Checks in your team to ensure your sweep?
3. Didn't I mention that if you care about damage output more than reliabily boosting your stats would make more sense to just use Latios in the first place?

To explain what I mean, I will address those points first.

1. I get that a Mega, at least most of them, are made to build your team around it and ensure a centain win condition instead of simply supporting fellow team members. Adding moves like Healing Wish or Defog take take the win condition of your "main" pokemon (your Mega Latias) away but in exchange you are allowing another member to stay healthy instead.
Now I have seen Healing Wish Latias being used as a win condition for mainly sweepers. You are willing to give away a team slot to create a win condition with your said Mega Salamence, Mega Charizard X or Mega Gyarados.
Well, those 'mons are more appealing than just ensuring that a regular Gyarados gets its win condition hence why you might not want to use healing wish on Mega Latias (guess you can call that an oppotunity cost).
But nontheless, Mega Latias is still a great Defogger, it can still use a fast Wish and last time I checked it learns Dual Screens, Magic Coat or Tail Wind and is the fastest and bulkiest users of those moves, wouldn't you agree?

2. I get what you are saying and know that you are not trying to imply that mono attacking Stored Power sucks, but that really seems that you are saying that it is the only viable Calm Mind set and you didn't care to address Dual STAB or 1 STAB + Coverage Move or Lure Move of your choice which has completely different counters/checks for the most part than the Stored Power set.
And yes, this made the win conditions between the both Latias different but that wasn't always the case.
Calm Mind Latias was less viable in the XY Meta compared to previous gens, but it was still a thing until Mega Latias came (which is the point I am getting at).
That Calm Mind Latias did not rely on Life Orb back then, so why does that seem like that it actually does according to your second paragraph at the end? Having to run more defensive spread does not matter as long as you can ensure your win condition compare to getting worn down with each of your moves, because you are locked into offensive pressure.

For instands lets take your Roost + 3 Attack Latios as an example, you can get off a Roost with your Latios to bring it up to enough health to abuse your Life Orb, but how offensive the Meta is right now, you have to rely more on prediction or just give up your Latios by going for a last Draco Meteor.
It is like you said, you use Mega Latias for its bulk over Latias, not for its damage output, but, at the same time, you can be using Latios for its damage output over its bulk unlike Latias. Do you get where I am getting here? Which would explain my 3rd Question.

And the last thing is, I said that most things will go Crunch > Knock Off and what I meant was, MOST things that use Knock Off over Crunch might go for Crunch instead (things that can actually learn both). I didn't know that Ttar can actually learn Knock Off but Ttar that is one exeption.
I was mainly talking about things like Thunderus or Crawdaunt mainly while Thundurus might just go Special without Knock Off for the most part.

But I guess I can't say much against Healing Wish so I can understand why people want it to keep A+, but I still believe both need to be at least on even ground.

 

[RichieTheBeldum]

I dont know, kinda on the edge with MGallade still. It destroys so many things, but one thing i have noticed is that it really hates MSlowbro and MSableye, which are ORAS Mega stall staples.
I get it. MGallade isnt a stallbreaker, but its a hella good wallbreaker. I think of MGallade as Little Mac: Hits hard, gets hit harder, but can easily KO you after his KO meter goes all the way up.

Now, anyways, MGallade deserves A+ Rank In my opinion just because of stall. As ive been seeing, Stall has been getting p popular, and that really cripples MGallades play. Thats literally the only reason I want it in A+. It would also be nice if it got a useful Ability, no one seems to point out its almost useless Ability, Inner Focus when it can have an ability to compliment its Attack, like Sheer Force or Hustle.

All in all, its great, but it really cant work that well in the meta right now. When the meta shifts to HO/Balanced play, prepare for MGallade to kick ass and become S rank.

 

[HolyAvatar]

You missed why CM Latios almost disappeared in XY. With fairies appearing, dragon pulse was not as good since fairies stopped you cold. People resort to stored power in for CM M-latios because it is the best way to deal with resists fast enough and not immediately lose to unaware mons.
Running dual stabs with awful coverage (steels resist both) and no utility is plain bad. You also lose status immunity and now you are beaten by things like toxic Tran.
Healing wish on your mega is bad especially when one of its selling points is reliable recovery along with good bulk.

I love lati@s but their megas are just not such a big improvement over the originals that they warrant losing the opportunity of another mega. CM M-Latios may be an exception, I'm not sure since I never had huge problems dealing with it.

 

[Kyuzeth]

I dont know, kinda on the edge with MGallade still. It destroys so many things, but one thing i have noticed is that it really hates MSlowbro and MSableye, which are ORAS Mega stall staples.
I get it. MGallade isnt a stallbreaker, but its a hella good wallbreaker. I think of MGallade as Little Mac: Hits hard, gets hit harder, but can easily KO you after his KO meter goes all the way up.

Now, anyways, MGallade deserves A+ Rank In my opinion just because of stall. As ive been seeing, Stall has been getting p popular, and that really cripples MGallades play. Thats literally the only reason I want it in A+. It would also be nice if it got a useful Ability, no one seems to point out its almost useless Ability, Inner Focus when it can have an ability to compliment its Attack, like Sheer Force or Hustle.

All in all, its great, but it really cant work that well in the meta right now. When the meta shifts to HO/Balanced play, prepare for MGallade to kick ass and become S rank.

Remember how Mega Gardevoir is the ultimate nemesis to stall? Mega Gallade has exactly the same supportive tools as Mega Gardevoir and can easily afford to run Taunt and/or Will-O-Wisp on bulkier sets. I don't know the exact EV spread, but there's a set with Bulk Up/Drain Punch/Knock Off/Taunt that works wonders against stally teams. Will-O-Wisp can be run over Taunt if necessary, but Taunt allows Mega Gallade to set up on many Pokémon and regain any lost health with Drain Punch, while Knock Off deals with Psychic- and Ghost-types resisting/being immune to Drain Punch. Sure, Fairy-types are problematic, but that's what teammates are for. All in all, I really don't see how stall is a problem for Mega Gallade when it can either plow through most of it using brute force or slowly setting up on it only to destroy it afterwards.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Remember how Mega Gardevoir is the ultimate nemesis to stall? Mega Gallade has exactly the same supportive tools as Mega Gardevoir and can easily afford to run Taunt and/or Will-O-Wisp on bulkier sets. I don't know the exact EV spread, but there's a set with Bulk Up/Drain Punch/Knock Off/Taunt that works wonders against stally teams. Will-O-Wisp can be run over Taunt if necessary, but Taunt allows Mega Gallade to set up on many Pokémon and regain any lost health with Drain Punch, while Knock Off deals with Psychic- and Ghost-types resisting/being immune to Drain Punch. Sure, Fairy-types are problematic, but that's what teammates are for. All in all, I really don't see how stall is a problem for Mega Gallade when it can either plow through most of it using brute force or slowly setting up on it only to destroy it afterwards.

Except most stall teams run MegaSabeleye or Megaslowbro which beat that set easily and most of its other sets for that matter

 

[Josh Morales]

I also unequivocally agree that Mega Gallade's capabilities are largely overstated. Quite simply it's effectiveness against all team archetypes is vastly overstated. It's speed is nothing special at all in the ORAS metagame and could even be considered average like base 100 in XY. People keep going crazy over how it destroys stall and offense too, but the latter is just not true. There are many things on offensive teams that outspeed it and Mega Gallade just doesn't get opportunities to set up against offensive teams because if it does it'll hopefully kill one pokemon at best and then die. Had GF given Gallade Mach Punch I would 100% agree that it's amazing versus all team archetypes but unfortunately GF logic implies stupid shit like giving Greninja Gunk Shot and Low Kick, but not giving Kyurem-Black Icicle Crash, Ice Punch, nor Earthquake. I would also argue that it's no better versus offensive teams than Mega Medicham despite less bulk and speed. Megacham has two priority moves with one that flinches, essentially composing one singular base 80 priority move without STAB(more powerful than, say, a STAB Mach Punch). Mega Gallade's unmitigated incapability to set up versus offensive teams and Megacham's lacking need thereof provides 'Cham the thing Mega Gallade really wants; the ability to punish switches. Don't get me wrong, actualizing offensive momentum with a Mega Gallade CC stings like hell, but absolutely not as shitting-bricks-inducing for an offensive team as a Mega Medicham behind a Substitute because if an frail offensive team lets 'cham get behind that sub then at least one thing is gonna die. The fact that Mega Gallade is a setup wallbreaker is honestly somewhat of a disadvantage compared to Mega Medicham since Mega Medicham has the freedom to use Substitute and still have an unmatched amount of power in OU. I will admit though that Mega Gallade is a bit better against stall, but Mega Gallade is also stopped cold by Mega Sableye which is on almost every stall team and that significantly hurts Megallade's effectiveness against stall as well. Megacham experiences the same struggle with Sableye, but my current focus is on Mega Gallade vs Stall and previously it was about Megallade vs Megacham against offense. Its bulk is also entirely overstated. Sure, it has bulk, but it's honestly not bulky. It is specially bulky, but against offensive teams pretty much all forms of revenge killing(priority, scarfers) are physical. Mega Gallade is also not switching into very powerful neutral hits like specs keldeo's pump, Megacross's pin missle, etc. It's not a damn Mega Metagross. It's an exceptional 'mon, but there's just nothing about it particularly overwhelming or deserving of S-rank. Just consider the definition of S-rank,

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

It's not amazing in the metagame. It does have a variety of set, but it does not perform a variety of roles. It's always a powerful physical attacker with 110 Speed and the option of using power boosting moves or utility moves such as WoW, DBond, or Substitute. Lastly, it's suboptimal speed is in no way whatsoever mitigated by it positive traits. That would be the case if it had good priority and bulk to take at least moderate power SE hits like Mega Metagross, but that's not the case. As has been recently shown, it doesn't even take an uninvested STAB SE BB from Skarmory with with base 80 attack, whereas Mega Metagross takes a STAB SE Life Orb Base 120 Attack Bisharp Sucker Punch.

Keep Mega Gallade in A+

 

[Wargreymon]

C- Rank

Pidgeot (Mega)

Uh-huh... and what are we discussing right now?

S and A+ ranks discussion

...Jesus, this is going to be the longest wait EVER.



Well, since I can't right this wrong RIGHT now, I might as well be productive and talk about Gallade. It's very close to an S rank threat but unfortunately, I think it just fall short. It draws a lot of parallels to Mega Lucario in a lot of ways, so I'll use it to draw parallels to. First of all, even with higher attack, its STAB outright doesn't hit as hard:

252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 235-277 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course, all that matter is not how hard it hits in comparison, but if it hits hard ENOUGH. Oftentimes, it's just a little too short:

252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 133-157 (39.8 - 47%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gallade: 306-360 (110.4 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 138-163 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 174-206 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It fails to net 2HKOs on two of OUs biggest physical walls, who can either respond by OHKOing it in the case of Skarmory or 2HKOing it while using Wish + Protect to outlast it in the case of Clefable. Both of them also win if they switch into a Swords Dance as well, Skarmory barely surviving the following CC and Clefable obviously not giving a shit due to Unaware.

I'm going to continue this post tomorrow because screw it, it's past 12 in the morning and I need to get up early tomorrow. Anyway, as much as I want Gallade in S it has too many flaws to be perfect.

EDIT: Ok, I'm back for a little bit. Now we need to tackle Mega Gallade's speed issue. Obviously base 110 is great, but it does have to start off at a meager base 80 without priority to compensate. Of course this isn't crippling as we see with other Megas like Gardevoir and Metagross, but this does make it harder for Gallade to find Pokemon it can threaten out. For instance, normally Mamoswine would be easy for Mega Gallade to take an Ice Shard from and revenge with CC, but on te turn it Mega Evolves it has to risk the speed tie. And if it loses...

244 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gallade: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Mega Gallade takes a huge hit, possibly OHKOing it with very little prior damage. Of course, there is a chance you'll win the speed tie against Mamoswine... but not against these guys:

252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gallade: 227-269 (81.9 - 97.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gallade: 237-280 (85.5 - 101%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(I know Specs Keldeo isn't as common in ORAS, but you have to eat a Hydro Pump either way and... are you really willing to take the risk?)

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gallade: 298-352 (107.5 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yeah, Pokemon you could easily revenge or at least due hefty chunks to that you can't until you have Mega'd previously, a litberty you don't always have. Aaand now I need to go again so I will rap it up in a finalized part 3 later.

*Nitpicking here* You forgot to buff Gallade's defence. Standard Skarmory can't OHKO with brave bird.

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 224-266 (80.5 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, can people stop saying base 110 speed is average? Right now there are around 43 pokemon in OU and base 110's outspeed like 37 of them. I know there'll be a few more additions but base 110's still outspeed a ton of the OU meta. It's only when arguing against a pokemon that people make amazing speed stats look bad, but when arguing for pokemon like metagross you're all like "omg amazing base 110 speed!" -.-

 

[AM]

Well, then let me ask you following questions:
1. Does the cost of Mega Slot takes away the viable option of running a supportive Mega Latias set with Defog etc.
2. Is the Calm Mind set really limited to use Stored Power just because of the said win condition forces you to run "only" Dark Checks in your team to ensure your sweep?
3. Didn't I mention that if you care about damage output more than reliabily boosting your stats would make more sense to just use Latios in the first place?

To explain what I mean, I will address those points first.

1. I get that a Mega, at least most of them, are made to build your team around it and ensure a centain win condition instead of simply supporting fellow team members. Adding moves like Healing Wish or Defog take take the win condition of your "main" pokemon (your Mega Latias) away but in exchange you are allowing another member to stay healthy instead.
Now I have seen Healing Wish Latias being used as a win condition for mainly sweepers. You are willing to give away a team slot to create a win condition with your said Mega Salamence, Mega Charizard X or Mega Gyarados.
Well, those 'mons are more appealing than just ensuring that a regular Gyarados gets its win condition hence why you might not want to use healing wish on Mega Latias (guess you can call that an oppotunity cost).
But nontheless, Mega Latias is still a great Defogger, it can still use a fast Wish and last time I checked it learns Dual Screens, Magic Coat or Tail Wind and is the fastest and bulkiest users of those moves, wouldn't you agree?

2. I get what you are saying and know that you are not trying to imply that mono attacking Stored Power sucks, but that really seems that you are saying that it is the only viable Calm Mind set and you didn't care to address Dual STAB or 1 STAB + Coverage Move or Lure Move of your choice which has completely different counters/checks for the most part than the Stored Power set.
And yes, this made the win conditions between the both Latias different but that wasn't always the case.
Calm Mind Latias was less viable in the XY Meta compared to previous gens, but it was still a thing until Mega Latias came (which is the point I am getting at).
That Calm Mind Latias did not rely on Life Orb back then, so why does that seem like that it actually does according to your second paragraph at the end? Having to run more defensive spread does not matter as long as you can ensure your win condition compare to getting worn down with each of your moves, because you are locked into offensive pressure.

For instands lets take your Roost + 3 Attack Latios as an example, you can get off a Roost with your Latios to bring it up to enough health to abuse your Life Orb, but how offensive the Meta is right now, you have to rely more on prediction or just give up your Latios by going for a last Draco Meteor.
It is like you said, you use Mega Latias for its bulk over Latias, not for its damage output, but, at the same time, you can be using Latios for its damage output over its bulk unlike Latias. Do you get where I am getting here? Which would explain my 3rd Question.

And the last thing is, I said that most things will go Crunch > Knock Off and what I meant was, MOST things that use Knock Off over Crunch might go for Crunch instead (things that can actually learn both). I didn't know that Ttar can actually learn Knock Off but Ttar that is one exeption.
I was mainly talking about things like Thunderus or Crawdaunt mainly while Thundurus might just go Special without Knock Off for the most part.

But I guess I can't say much against Healing Wish so I can understand why people want it to keep A+, but I still believe both need to be at least on even ground.

1. Yes to a degree it does. Theoretically you could run the same thing but why bother when you would be better off running something more useful from both an offensive and stall standpoint such as M-Gallade or M-Slowbro for example? With that being said there isn't a huge reason to use Defog M-Latias when common partners to it include such things as Skarmory and Empoleon as they provide the defensive synergy to cover some of their basic checks.
2. No the set isn't limited to Stored Power, that is this assumption based off of hype and I only addressed this because this is a general norm that you see amongst players. I also addressed that M-Latias does indeed trump regular Latias in these sets you mentioned in the last sentence of my second paragraph, although worded poorly.
3. The argument wasn't so much the immediate power output between Latias and Latios, it was addressing that Latias can allow itself both immediate offensive pressure as well as running said support moves in one slot, something M-Latias doesn't consolidate in the role as well because it loses one or the other based on the set it runs.

Continuing on the other points

1. Most of your first points are correct I can't argue. Some are based more on team-building perspective such as using Wish M-Latias a philosophy I wouldn't really consider simply for the reasons I can use a much more consistent Wish Passer that isn't Pursuit weak such as Alomomola or Clefable. Dual Screens wants to have Light Clay equipped to improve its effectiveness, this is something M-Latias will obviously not be able to provide. Magic Coat is great in theory but ok in practice against opposing leads early game but that's really just about it. Both Latias and M-Latias won't actually benefit from using this move consistently and can only be used on lead dual screen sets and very specific builds, so this right here is just wasting your mega simply for dedicated support that could be used on regular Latias who can at least run optional items such as leftovers, focus sash, and light clay, these being the ones you would see on dedicated support sets.

2. The benefit of M-Latias is that it can used these sets you mentioned with more bulk provided, I'm pretty sure I established this more or less as a reason to use M-Latias over Latias. The CM set on Latias was always there but it was less easy to pull off simply due to a drastic difference in bulk. You're putting words into my mouths saying "That Calm Mind Latias did not rely on Life Orb back then, so why does that seem like that it actually does according to your second paragraph at the end?" I was never implying that it does I was simply stating that Life Orb provides a much more immediate power aspect on its basic set which would be the 2 attack, Roost/Healing Wish, Defog set, nothing else. The point I brought up about running different spreads due to M-Latias and Latias was to point out the two serve different functions and are not necessarily better or less efficient and shouldn't be used as an argument to drop Latias to A by implying both are on equal playing fields from a team-building and practical perspective. They occupy different playstyles as a whole and should be taken into account if one playstyle is more dominant or effective than another in where one resides in that least effective playstyle.

3. On your last point about Crunch>Knock Off I mentioned Tyranitar as an example because one of its basic sets is Pursuit/Crunch, Stone Edge, Fire Blast/Icebeam, Stealth Rock. What I was getting at is Dark types all of a sudden won't stop using Knock Off or in Tyranitars case Pursuit simply for M-Latias because the utility that both Knock Off and Pursuit provide is still very effective. Pursuit allows to break down defensive and offensive cores reliant on these Psychic Types and Knock Off provides utility in removing items that more than likely are a huge factor in the targets survivability and its effectiveness. M-Latias doesn't actually reduce the viability of these moves at all.

 

[HolyAvatar]

*Nitpicking here* You forgot to buff Gallade's defence. Standard Skarmory can't OHKO with brave bird.

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 224-266 (80.5 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, can people stop saying base 110 speed is average? Right now there are around 43 pokemon in OU and base 110's outspeed like 37 of them. I know there'll be a few more additions but base 110's still outspeed a ton of the OU meta. It's only when arguing against a pokemon that people make amazing speed stats look bad, but when arguing for pokemon like metagross you're all like "omg amazing base 110 speed!" -.-

You should calc with -1 4/0 to account for the CC defense drop.

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 338-398 (121.5 - 143.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(I did change it to 95 base def.)

 

[Josh Morales]

*Nitpicking here* You forgot to buff Gallade's defence. Standard Skarmory can't OHKO with brave bird.

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 224-266 (80.5 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, can people stop saying base 110 speed is average? Right now there are around 43 pokemon in OU and base 110's outspeed like 37 of them. I know there'll be a few more additions but base 110's still outspeed a ton of the OU meta. It's only when arguing against a pokemon that people make amazing speed stats look bad, but when arguing for pokemon like metagross you're all like "omg amazing base 110 speed!" -.-

I know your post isn't directed toward me but I'm not arguing for Metagross to be S rank and I think it should be A+ as well. What you've displayed here is what you call perspective. 110 is average for an offensive Pokemon, but fast overall. The reason everyone's perspective is relative to the speed of offensive pokemon is because not only are those the Pokemon it needs to outspeed, but even if Mega Gallade had base 60 speed it would still outspeed the defensive or bulky offensive threats of the metagame as most run zero or close to zero Speed investment anyways, nor do they commonly have a decent speed stat. Relative Speed against offensive Pokemon is simply by far the most important guage of speed for a Pokemon like Mega Gallade.

 

[Firebird101]

*Nitpicking here* You forgot to buff Gallade's defence. Standard Skarmory can't OHKO with brave bird.

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 224-266 (80.5 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Small nitpick but I still think Counter is a viable move on Skarmory to ohko mons who are trying to 2hko it.



Anyways I have to agree with the people who wanna keep Mega Metagross and Mega Gallade at A+. While they are great they still have noticeable flaws that reduces their effectiveness a bit so I can't exactly say they are as much as low risk/high reward mons as the likes of Greninja. Metagross has a serious 4mss and Gallade lacks a good priority.

 

[Kurona]

Small nitpick but I still think Counter is a viable move on Skarmory to ohko mons who are trying to 2ohko it.

The most recommend Skarmory set in OU atm doesn't recommend Brave Bird yeah; it goes for Counter instead

 

[Kyuzeth]

Except most stall teams run MegaSabeleye or Megaslowbro which beat that set easily and most of its other sets for that matter

Yes, those Pokémon are problematic, but that's where teammates come in. Unaware Clefable makes for an excellent partner to Mega Gallade thanks to its ability to just attack Mega Slowbro past its CM boosts with Moonblast, which also hits Mega Sabes supereffectively. As I've mentioned, Taunt.
It's far from deadweight, even with those two Pokémon around on Stall.