So, anyone find any good answers? It seems like a good number of common 'mons check Diggersby, but nothing relatively common barring Bronzong counters it outright. I've been fiddling with Specs Lunatone and support Drifblim, and they both seem ok in their anti-Diggersby roles, but the fact that I'm resorting to bad Pokemon like this is not encouraging. Double Dance is scary, CB is incredibly strong (RIP Swampert), and Scarf seems good but not amazing. Double Dance with Lum Berry seems to be its most threatening set by a long shot.
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np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]
- Thread starter kokoloko
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Lol lunatone
Edit: Release Mega Solrock and Lunatone they are already Mega stones lol
But seriously, double dance ripz through offense and stall.
Also, you dont have to resort to lunatone (who is hit by u turn so lol) is Mismagius. SubNP IS GOOD
Been playing with SD Bunny for a few games, and I'm unimpressed. There's so much fast shit that dumps on Diggersby that it just doesn't get the set-up opportunities it used to. Sweeping with Quick Attack is also difficult, since you need a lot of prior damage to snipe stuff at +2. Gonna try Choice Band with Facade for shits and giggles (Pursuit trap Ghosts and maybe some chunkier resists but then you break shit in half).
Mismagius is pretty decent, and Haunter to some extent can work out (would not recommend over Mismagius lol). Lunatone actually isn't too bad, Timid Specs with 228 Spd EVs outspeeds Adamant Diggersby and OHKOs with rocks 100% of the time with Ice Beam, which also hammers common supporters in Whimsicott (Guaranteed OHKO after SR if running 248HP/8SpD spread) and Krookodile (Guaranteed OHKO after SR if running no bulk). Yes it loses to CB Victi-I mean CB Diggersby with U-Turn, but then again, what doesn't? :/ Honest question, apart from Choice Band/Scarf Diggersby, does it run U-Turn?
I agree that Mismagius>>Lunatone/any other niche answer to Diggersby, but that makes 3 solid answers to Diggersby (Mismagius/Bronzong/Gourgeist). M-Aero can be shaky (seriously people, Wild Charge on CB is hella underrated), but is still a pretty good answer. I've been experimenting, but by no means are they viable in the metagame apart from this niche (reminds me of Moltres being used to deal with M-Lucario in OU).
and this discussion about nonviable or only viable for one tiny niche in the tier apart from diggersby is literally what makes a mon broken. if you have to resort to niche mons because the best mons in the tier can't take on a specific pokemon, that mon is broken. in addition, diggersby is almost always if not always guaranteed to get a kill every match, and team matchup in this case doesn't even really matter (assuming you're not using gourgeist or something like that lol.) Double dance is crazy and autowins on a lot of teams if it gets the chance to setup (and has pretty respectable bulk, only needs agility to destroy offensive teams and sd to beat stall, both can beat balance) and cb has no safe switchins. I think those two are the most common sets atm. u-turn also means if you have a gourgeist/lunatone etc, something that resists its dual stab combination, it just u-turns and grabs momentum for a counter. very, very broken imo (although tbh i haven't had too much practice with diggersby, but its brokenness is blantantly obvious).
LiberalLucario
"for one tiny niche in the tier apart from diggersby"
That right there is a great statement. There are niche mons that counter prominent UU threats while still rrmaining usefuloutside of countering said mon. One great example is Gastrodon. This sea slug is able to run an effective Curse set (ala RowDog ) with storm drain. BlGastro is a counter to CroCune, while being able to set up on other big threats in UU like Nidos, physical lucario, non GK infernape, Mega Aero, Mrga Amphy, etc. It has a niche, that can be used outside of using spefifically for CroCune.
Another greatvexample is Whimsicott who counters SubCoil Ziggy retty good,but its also a great support mon that has uses outside of Ziggy.
Mismagius and Zong (and to a lesser extent Gourge and Lunatone) arr only chosen has counters or checks to diggersby when they would normally be entirely outclassed (although id argue SubNP mis has potential in UU with Shadowball and Dazzling Gleam coverage)..
"for one tiny niche in the tier apart from diggersby"
That right there is a great statement. There are niche mons that counter prominent UU threats while still rrmaining usefuloutside of countering said mon. One great example is Gastrodon. This sea slug is able to run an effective Curse set (ala RowDog ) with storm drain. BlGastro is a counter to CroCune, while being able to set up on other big threats in UU like Nidos, physical lucario, non GK infernape, Mega Aero, Mrga Amphy, etc. It has a niche, that can be used outside of using spefifically for CroCune.
Another greatvexample is Whimsicott who counters SubCoil Ziggy retty good,but its also a great support mon that has uses outside of Ziggy.
Mismagius and Zong (and to a lesser extent Gourge and Lunatone) arr only chosen has counters or checks to diggersby when they would normally be entirely outclassed (although id argue SubNP mis has potential in UU with Shadowball and Dazzling Gleam coverage)..
Solrock>Lunatone because it has more phys def and access to willowisp, but still lol I wouldn't use either of them.
I'd argue Zong certainly has a growing niche in the metagame, manhandling every dragon in the tier but Hydreigon while dealing very well with rachi, aerodactyl, crobat, cloyster, roserade... I wouldn't say its outclassed at all, but in practice it's underwhelming due to lack of recovery and being pretty weak.
Still, I'm not really seeing Diggersby being all that balanced, but I haven't seen it in practice much yet.
I'd argue Zong certainly has a growing niche in the metagame, manhandling every dragon in the tier but Hydreigon while dealing very well with rachi, aerodactyl, crobat, cloyster, roserade... I wouldn't say its outclassed at all, but in practice it's underwhelming due to lack of recovery and being pretty weak.
Still, I'm not really seeing Diggersby being all that balanced, but I haven't seen it in practice much yet.
The only dragon that Zong beats is Flygon, lets not kid ourselves. Haxorus has Mold Breaker and bypasses levitate. Hydre blasts Zong away too, as youbsaid before. Yeah, Zong checks DD Ziggy, it can be set up so easily bt SubCoil Ziggy by avoiding status and boosting defense. Regarding Rachi, it can just TrickScarf or Fire punch and go for the burn easily thanks tobserene grace. It checks Iron Head Rachi, but Fire Punch is a staple on Rachi. A +2 Hydro Pump from cloyster cleanly 2Hko phys def rachi while uninvested gyro balls fails to 1hko +2 cloyster with the defensive drop amd SR on the field.
The only things that Zong actually Checks is Mega Aero, Crobat and Flygon. Metagross can check Bat just as easily, so the only thing Zong has going for it that differentiates it from Metagross or Rachi is Mega Aero, Flygon and Diggersby...
Edit:, Air Ballon or banded Metagross check Mega aero and flygon (banded BP for mega aero). So, its pretty much just diggersby in all honesty...
And Nidos and Kyurem and Shaymin and Celebi... basically anything that relies on ground moves as coverage to hit steel types.
to be fair nidos can run fire blast which is a great move boost by sf + lo and has good coverage imo.
I still think bronzon is subpar, and if we have to resort to stuff like that tocheck diggersby, it's an indicator (not the end all) of something being potentially broken.
I really think diggersby struggles against offense, but has replaced heracross as uu's new wall breaker.
Diggersby is kind of similar to Heracross in many ways. Kind of slow, has decent bulk, great typing, and strong with a boost move (or two). I think u-turn makes diggersby way better than cross, but idk.
what do u guys think
I still think bronzon is subpar, and if we have to resort to stuff like that tocheck diggersby, it's an indicator (not the end all) of something being potentially broken.
I really think diggersby struggles against offense, but has replaced heracross as uu's new wall breaker.
Diggersby is kind of similar to Heracross in many ways. Kind of slow, has decent bulk, great typing, and strong with a boost move (or two). I think u-turn makes diggersby way better than cross, but idk.
what do u guys think
Nidos can run ire Blast, Kyurem can PP Stall Gyro Ball with a subroost set easily. Shaymin and Celebi are bulky grass types that can SubSeed on Zong, NP Baton Pass Celebi, etc.. what can Zong do besides toxic shaymin or Celebi? Toxic them? They have natural cure so Zong just sits there and does pretty much notbing. At least Rachi can flinch them or AssVest Meta can use Ice Punch and Pursuit or sweep with Agility.
Edit: obviously av meta cant use agility but just as an example..
Zong has no pressure outside of Gyro Ball and Earthquake and im not even surr how much of a check Zong is considering its cleanly 2hko by LO adamant return
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 182-214 (53.8 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (101 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 124-147 (39.7 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The theorymon is so real. In the context of actual games, rather in the context of select calcs and situations, Bronzong fairs pretty well. Its a pivot for offensive teams that need glue. Thats it. All the things that it is meant to take care it does and leaves the rest to its teammates, just like every other viable pokemon. It seems like half the times in these types of conversation ppl use over-exaggerated points about one thing to prove another. Discrediting Bronzong's viability with points that are only accurate in select situations is not a valid argument. Surprisingly enough, many pokes that normally check others can be beat in certain situations with proper play. That doesn't make them less valuable. Im not really trying to enter this convo like that but I wanna at least try to keep you all honest.
Been using a Diggersby/M-Absol/Sub/NP Mismagius core with sticky web support and it's been working really well. Diggersby is the main Poke, because its broken as shit and the other two support it really well. M-Absol deals with ghosts that Diggersby struggles with, and is immune to Wil-o-Wisp after it mega evolves. Mismagius can spin block, and hits things on the special side. I don't know if it counts as a "core" since with Shuckle/Galvantula its 4/6th of my team, but it's been really effective for me.
If Bronzong were more viable then why isnt it used more? why was its usage in October so low when its all of a sudden starting to rise due to diggersby? This isnt the case of a mon that people sleep on like offensive whimsi, its a case of a mon that is almost entirely outclassed by Jirachi and Metagross. Theorymon or not, Zong wasnt used a lot before and theres a reason for it.
Forcing evrry team to run zongto just counter bunny is not a good meta
Dude, I'll try to explain one more time. [Keep in mind that we have never talked about Diggersby and its brokenness.]
We were just pointing out that you are underselling Bronzong. Due to its access to levitate zong can wall more pokemon than other steel/psychic types can such as standart Nidos(queen runs dual stab/ice beam/sr or t-spikes and king runs superpower on the last slot) lo, specs, scarf kyurem(that's 3/4 of sets) lo shaymin and self sweeping NP celebi and more. Yes, zong is pretty passive and doesn't have recovery but it is not a Luvdisc. Ask Ironbullet93, he was using Bronzong with a great success before the diggy suspect started. Does this make him a bad player? I doubt it.
Yeah I would really like to back up Bronzong's effectiveness, Levitate is a HUGE advantage over other steel types. Basically it is a hard stop to any Pokemon whose only way past steels is a Ground move. So Nidos, Kyurem, Shaymin, Celebi, Ziggy, Mega Aero, Mega Aggron, and Gligar just to name a few are completely countered. Also having an immunity to Ground moves makes the opponent think twice about, say, spamming EQ instead of Knock Off on Krookodile or something which can be pretty significant when it comes down to it. Sure it can't do much damage but that's not what it's meant to do. It's used for coming in, tanking a hit, setting up rocks, checking various special attackers and acting as a pivot for other Pokemon to come in, and from experience I can say it excels in this role. I have been using a moveset of Iron Head / EQ / Toxic / SR which does the job more often than not, doing respectable amounts to whatever it needs to hit and dealing with everything else with Toxic.
Just a small question - why Iron Head over Gyro Ball? Is it that worth it preserving zongers pitiful speed stat or do you just not like getting stalled out of PP?
It's mostly to avoid getting pp stalled since gyro has horrific PP and iron head is a more consistent move overall
Yeah PP is the main issue as Bronzong tends to last throughout most battles, but I also prefer it for the more consistent damage, especially against slower stuff.
For example:
0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (51 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 102-122 (28.3 - 33.8%) -- 97.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (26 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 50-60 (13 - 15.6%) -- possible 7HKO
0 Atk Bronzong Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 162-192 (45 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Bronzong Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 152-180 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
For example:
0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (51 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 102-122 (28.3 - 33.8%) -- 97.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (26 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 50-60 (13 - 15.6%) -- possible 7HKO
0 Atk Bronzong Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 162-192 (45 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Bronzong Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 152-180 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Well you can all stop your Bronzong bitching cause Diggersby is gone, no real surprises there. Next test will be Scolipede, so hopefully we have enough time to test before ORAS and then Koko or I will update you on tiering come ORAS etc etc so hold tight my UU frens :]
e: I'll also update the tiering thread with all the paragraphs but the reasoning for diggers should be pretty obvious :]
e: I'll also update the tiering thread with all the paragraphs but the reasoning for diggers should be pretty obvious :]
It gets Speed Boost, a Swords Dance set would be an absolute pain to deal with. Megahorn / Poison Jab STAB and Earthquake coverage on a +2 mon that gets faster every turn, limiting the amount of time you have to revenge kill it? I'd rather not tbh.
I hate Scolipede.
Quite frankly he's just gonna be way too much, he's essentially a poke like Ninjask or Combusken who's built to make almost any poke a terrifying sweeper, but with the added bonus of not being killed by every stiff breeze. Scolipede actually has enough bulk to set up an SD and hit what's in front of him at choice scarf speed the next turn if its necessary. Nevermind that he can come in and take on pokes that he really shouldn't be able to, because at 112 base speed he can fly past every relevant scarfer in the tier and he's hit neutrally by all priority outside of Fletchinder's Acrobatics which even still has less than a 20% chance to OHKO him from full health when EV'd right.
He's a bulky attacker who can outspeed the meta after one protect, hit hit hard if it comes down to it, and support the team by turning ordinary threats into monsters.
This is going to be an annoying test.
Fletch Calc:
Quite frankly he's just gonna be way too much, he's essentially a poke like Ninjask or Combusken who's built to make almost any poke a terrifying sweeper, but with the added bonus of not being killed by every stiff breeze. Scolipede actually has enough bulk to set up an SD and hit what's in front of him at choice scarf speed the next turn if its necessary. Nevermind that he can come in and take on pokes that he really shouldn't be able to, because at 112 base speed he can fly past every relevant scarfer in the tier and he's hit neutrally by all priority outside of Fletchinder's Acrobatics which even still has less than a 20% chance to OHKO him from full health when EV'd right.
He's a bulky attacker who can outspeed the meta after one protect, hit hit hard if it comes down to it, and support the team by turning ordinary threats into monsters.
This is going to be an annoying test.
Fletch Calc:
Scolipede is EV'd with 248 HP/60 Def/200 Spe to outspeed scarfshao after one boost, but you can change it to outspeed scarfnape and still have a good shot at surviving this hit, worst case scenario you can just switch out into something like Aggron to tank the hit and then set up rocks as Fletch is forced out
252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 60 Def Scolipede: 278-330 (86 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 60 Def Scolipede: 278-330 (86 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Scolipede is gonna be really dumb lol. When I used it in beta, I ran Megahorn, Earthquake, SD, and Baton Pass with Sash so it could pass while maintaining some of its ability to clean/sweep, but i'm sure there's at least 5 other sets it can run, a few others of which are broken as well, and I feel like nothing has really changed for it from beta to now, regarding its brokenness.
There's no way this meta will sufficiently adapt to it in a way that makes Scolipede balanced, and I doubt I will need any hard evidence to prove that, as opposed to at least 80% of the other suspects tested here lol. But I'm probably gonna use it anyways, just because I really hate to use theorymon in any of my council votes.
There's no way this meta will sufficiently adapt to it in a way that makes Scolipede balanced, and I doubt I will need any hard evidence to prove that, as opposed to at least 80% of the other suspects tested here lol. But I'm probably gonna use it anyways, just because I really hate to use theorymon in any of my council votes.
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ooh talk dirty to me, sassbasket.
For relevant post, Here it is:
I honestly find that his Hazards set will be more annoying since there really isn't anything in the way of stopping it. However, one thing to keep in mind is that the test is running through the ORAS drop, which means we get Mega-Sableye and some other cool shit that can deal with Scoli marginally well.
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