The sheer fact it needs a lot of teammate support and can't support itself makes me believe its only A+ not S.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Cores are not "a lot" of teammate support. Practically every pokemon functions better when paired with certain other pokemon.
With the current standards of S (lol mence) I don't think Gallade is S, but it's much better and easier to use than people are making it out to be (I mean seriously, the way people have been describing it ["bad against stall due to Mega Sableye and Slowbro, bad against offense due to numerous things that can RK it"] it sounds like complete garbage, and in using it I can attest that it's not.) 110 base speed is not "the new 100," it's still outspeeding a very large portion of the meta. All this speed creep in ORAS is from megas only, AKA things you can only have one of on a team, and only a four of them are above 110 base.
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ah sorry if i'm implying it is bad. It is in no way bad. In fact its quite good. A solid A+ mon. Some people are overhyping it though. Fact of the matter is it can't dismantly stall as well as Gard. It just does have several counters and checks holding it back.
IMO S rank is above and beyond all other mons (Mence Greninja) Wear you can throw it on most teams and make them better. Gallade just quite isn't at that level.
Here's another problem with mega gallade that I didn't mention: it has so many wonderful support moves like Taunt, will-o, t-wave, hypnosis, sub, destiny bond, its really cool. But its lack of survivability hinders its ability to effectively really use any of these, limiting its best sets to pretty much SD+3 attacks or Sub/Taunt+SD+CC+knock off.
Also, you can't taunt sableye, it magic bounces that back :S
And i'd really argue that it is indeed deadweight against stall. If your hard counter is on the opposing side, they come in for free every time you do. Sableye gets to spread burns, soften up the team with shadow balls, knock off items, and in general be really fucking annoying, meaning that you're forced to double out every time gallade even comes in, which is pretty annoying.
Its like saying a pokemon like scarf heatran is far from deadweight against stall because I carry a bisharp with me to beat chansey and slowbro!
Chansey and slowbro are ridiculously common pokemon on stall, and scarf heatran is bound to be useless against almost any competent stall team because all it does is let the opponent switch in their counter for free; you having a pokemon to deal with that counter doesn't change this fact even if can consistently double into it which is just annoying to have to do.
I'm not trying to compare the offensive prowess of gallade and scarftran cuz they're obviously different but rather I'm comparing their bad matchup against stall.
XY Keldeo begs to differ. Give me a valid argument next time.
Wasn't team support one of the big arguments for Keldeo dropping to A+?
XY Keldeo was probably the most controversial S rank, as lots of people wanted it to drop.
Points taken. I still don't consider it absolute deadweight, but you have made some valid points about Mega Gallade's matchup against Stall. I entirely forgot about support moves backfiring on Mega Sableye's Magic Bounce, thanks for the reminder. I guess that's where Mega Gardevoir fares better, mainly due to being able to shatter Mega Sabes with Hyper Voice and not giving a shit about burn. Thanks for the information!
Now, I still believe Mega Gallade has what it takes to be S-Rank (if Keldeo hit S in XY, then I feel like Mega Gallade can in ORAS), but I definitely understand why people want it to remain in A+.
Yeah, I believe so. Back when Azumarill was the big shot in XY and had the ability to completely wall Keldeo to Hell and back with its Assault Vest sets, as well as OHKO with Play Rough in return, Keldeo was kind of a borderline S-Ranker. The rise in Eon usage didn't particularly help Keldeo, either.
As soon as all the ranking team members submit their votes.
Is Mega Gallade really S Rank? Mega Gallade is definitely extremely good, but it has some flaws. First of all, Mega Gallade becomes ridiculously easy to wear down when it cannot switch in to anything. Even un-invested physical moves are doing quite a lot to it, and this Scald happy metagame doesn't do it any favors. Oh yea, Mega Sableye is like the stall 'mon of choice with Mega Slowbro and it can't do anything except watch Sableye get a free burn or Shadow Ball on something or just sweep crap after they have eliminated your fairy because you were clumsy enough to switch in your fairy type every time. It sits at an excellent speed tier, but other cool 'mons: Mega Beedrill, Talonflame, Mega Salamence, Mega Lopunny, Greninja, Thundurus-I (will just paralysis lel), Scolipede which you see more often in this metagame, and Mega Aerodacty(...)easily check it with little prior damage. These flaws themselves means it cannot be compared to any of the other great high risk low reward 'mons which have advanatages over all playstyles with limited amount of checks like Keldeo, Mega Charizard X, soon t be Mega Metagross and Thundurus-I, and Latios. Obviously not the most comparable example, but Mega Gallade is no S Rank PKMN. It is fine in A+ like Srn said
Here are the changes:
Latios: S --> A+
Keldeo: S --> A+
Mega Metagross: A+ ---> S
Thundurus: A+ ---> S
Azumarill: A+ ---> A
Mega Charizard Y: A+ ---> A
Garchomp: A+ ---> A
Mew: A+ ---> A
Mega Pinsir: A+ ---> B
Mega Venusaur: A+ ---> A
Also, Mega Salamence was moved to a newly created S+ rank, in order for the ranks to make more sense. As for the changes above, they won't take place atm, because the metagame will change drastically in a few days, so they will be saved somewhere in the OP as a reference tool until Mega Salamence's fate is decided.
You can start discussing the A and A- ranks now.
Latios: S --> A+
Keldeo: S --> A+
Mega Metagross: A+ ---> S
Thundurus: A+ ---> S
Azumarill: A+ ---> A
Mega Charizard Y: A+ ---> A
Garchomp: A+ ---> A
Mew: A+ ---> A
Mega Pinsir: A+ ---> B
Mega Venusaur: A+ ---> A
Also, Mega Salamence was moved to a newly created S+ rank, in order for the ranks to make more sense. As for the changes above, they won't take place atm, because the metagame will change drastically in a few days, so they will be saved somewhere in the OP as a reference tool until Mega Salamence's fate is decided.
You can start discussing the A and A- ranks now.
The most obvious nomination that needs to be made is Mega Slowbro A => A+. It's one of the best new megas. It has all the perks of Slowbro minus Regenerator, but this is made up for the increased bulk which gives it awesome set-up potential. Stops so many physically based Pokemon as well as some mixed ones like Keldeo. The rest-talk set is Suicune 2.0 and works great in the meta. This, and the fact that it outclasses pretty much every Pokemon in A rank right now means it should totally move up a rank.
Mega Medicham to B+.
Everyone knows why, no-one's really denying it, I've already said it twice here so it's probably getting repetitive but this is the first time it's actually relevant, Mega Gallade just outclasses it in most every way. It still has greater initial power and fake out, so I don't think it deserves lower than B+, but I don't think those let it deserve any higher.
Everyone knows why, no-one's really denying it, I've already said it twice here so it's probably getting repetitive but this is the first time it's actually relevant, Mega Gallade just outclasses it in most every way. It still has greater initial power and fake out, so I don't think it deserves lower than B+, but I don't think those let it deserve any higher.
Okay so they'll just be kept on record? alright then :D
Since its A and A- ranks to do, id like to nominate Mega Aero to A Ranking. Due to the increased speed levels of the megas, Aero has found a new home in going Jolly nature in order to outspeed them and take them out before they can cause any harm to your team. It is capable of checking Salamence by running enough speed to outspeed base 145s and invest rest in max attack and def in order to tank a +1 Return and OHKO bacak with a tough claws boosted Ice fang. it is also capable of taking out Lopunny, Sceptile, and Beedrill. It still handles a lot of the same threats it use too, like Char X at +1, and others. The bad side of the meta shift is Aero has to forgo adamant, meaning it loses out in the power department at times (like before it had guaranteed OHKO on Keld with AA but now its not even a 50%) but overall its added utility allow it to perform better in the meta by helping keep a lot of the new and faster threats in check, allowing it to shine even better than it was near the end of XY.
Do we even get a say in the rankings? There were tons of great posts regarding lando moving up to S and a ridiculous amount of people agreeing with them. Virtually no arguments were made against it and if they were they were crap compared the the arguments for. Not to be disrespectful, but it seems as if our opinions and votes are completely ignored (in this case at least) if someone who runs the thread doesn't agree with them.
Why wasn't landorus-t moved up to S rank? At least give us a reason before you delete my post again.
Why wasn't landorus-t moved up to S rank? At least give us a reason before you delete my post again.
I deleted your post because the answer was obvious. The reasons for why Lando-T didn't move to S were mostly the same as before, and have to do with its limitations as a scarfer, such as inability to revenge kill popular Speed boosting sweepers (Jolly Mega Charizard X, Mega Salamence), being dead weight against defensive teams, and being locked into one move due to the use of Scarf, which makes playing around it easier for teams with defensive cores.
Hey guys, just going to repost a thing I already said about Mega Slowbro that still holds true.
I know this is a completely radical suggestion, but Mega Slowbro is an absolute monster. With insanely high Defense, it has the capacity to wall a large portion of the metagame. To put its bulk into perspective, it has a higher Defense stat than Furfrou when both are invested. This enables it to stomach even the most powerful hits. One example is Mega Salamence's Return, as even a +1 it has only a 53% chance to actually 2HKO it. Plus, it can even utilize Calm Mind, which is essentially adding an Assault Vest. Its Special Attack is nothing to laugh it either, it's actually the same as Latios: 130. Calm Mind / Rest / Sleep Talk / Scald has so many opportunities to setup and go to town, devouring the opponent's team provided it doesn't get unlucky crit hax. Oh wait, did I say crit hax? Yeah, no, Mega Slowbro will never be critted, making it all the harder to beat. The biggest issue with Mega Slowbro is Electric-types, the few things that can actually beat it. All of them are threatened with a Scald burn, though. It's hard to justify Mega Slowbro not being A+ Rank when it's such a great Pokemon.
Mega Slowbro: A Rank ---> A+ Rank
MegaSabeleye A- > A
This thing is the backbone for most stall teams (that and MegaSlowbro, who should also move up) In the past stall would often get beat by taunters or by spike stacking etc... MegaSabeleye solves both of those problems. In addition it has good bulk, Great typing with only one weakness, can spread burns, helps you beat opposing stall, Lastly is a really good win condition. Also prankster is a great pre-mega ability that lets you can off clutch burns.
This thing is the backbone for most stall teams (that and MegaSlowbro, who should also move up) In the past stall would often get beat by taunters or by spike stacking etc... MegaSabeleye solves both of those problems. In addition it has good bulk, Great typing with only one weakness, can spread burns, helps you beat opposing stall, Lastly is a really good win condition. Also prankster is a great pre-mega ability that lets you can off clutch burns.
I'm going to straight-up nominate Mega-Sableye to S rank because my god this thing is so incredibly good. It is literally the face of ORAS stall, and that's despite the existence of other Megas which literally just wall half the metagame. I mean yeah, you can run Mega-Slowbro and Mega-Altaria on stall and straight-up not have to worry about most of the tier, but Mega-Sableye provides something far more important than just beating threats, and that is control. Specifically, complete control over the hazards game, as well as control over status, over stallbreaking, etc... But it's mainly hazards. Entry hazards are one of the best and most effective ways of dealing with stall teams. You can have a team where every one of your Pokemon is walled by something on the opposing stall team and still win just by forcing the opposing Pokemon onto rocks several times, to the point where said counters are no longer counters. Sableye pretty much stops this from happening at all, which for a playstyle as passive and prone to get pushed around as Stall is priceless. Stall teams featuring Sableye pretty much invariably beat stall teams without Sableye since the latter automatically lose the hazards war which usually decides stall vs stall matchups (it also generally beats the opposing stallbreaker unless it happens to be Diancie which I don't think is really used on stall). Oh yeah and it also walls a massive portion of the metagame too, let's not forget that.
Also, what actually counters this thing? And I don't mean "switches in and beats it from there", I mean properly counter it, aka switching into it repetidely without any support. The only thing I can think of are Clefable, Sylveon, and Altaria. Everything else (Gardevoir, Tentacruel, Diancie, Talonflame) gets worn down by it. It's one of the most meta-defining Pokemon in the tier, puts in work regardless of matchup (even when there's a Clefable on the opposing team it still usually pulls its weight) and it requires specific measures if you want to actually beat it, and even then it can sweep teams without too much difficulty. It also has excellent synergy with a few really solid Pokemon on stall such as Tentacruel and Jirachi to the point where building around it is really easy. Right now the typical stall team is something along the lines of Sableye/Tentacruel or Empoleon/Jirachi (I know Jukain uses Doublade but eh)/Clefable/Chansey (or Blissey b/c Lando-I/Gengar are things that exist)/Skarmory or Chesnaught or Hippowdon some other physical wall, and for good reason.
Mega-Sableye is an absolutely dominant force in the current metagame and I don't really see why it wouldn't be deserving of S rank.
Oh yeah speaking of Jirachi.
I've taken up team rating recently (I swear this is going somewhere), and the single Pokemon I found myself recommending the most frequently was Jirachi. Now, this may well be just me, but I really do feel like Jirachi fits on a huge amount of teams in this metagame, being a staple on Stall and pretty much the best fairykiller in the tier in general, having excellent synergy with many new megas such as the aforementioned Sableye, Latias, and Altaria, and providing a ton of utility in general with Wish, Body Slam, Stealth Rock, U-Turn, Healing Wish... It's not just to be used on defensive teams and can be tailored quite easily to fit on offensive ones in general. It's also an excellent special wall in general and although it suffers from the popularity of Dark Pulse on Greninja, it's able to handle big threats such as Mega-Diancie (Earth Power doesn't do enough), Mega-Sceptile, non EQ MMetagross, and Mega-Gardevoir (who I've discovered kinda steamrolls a ton on ORAS teams). I'm really not sure whether it's A rank material or not (A- is still really high especially considering that it used to be unranked), but it has been putting a really impressive amount of work for me lately, so I think this still needs to be discussed.
Mega-Slowbro I'm not sure about. Crobro is not an A+ set imo, it's taken advantage of too easily and stopped by quite a few things. But a simple set of Scald, Ice Beam, Toxic/Thunder Wave, and Slack Off walls a ton of stuff, including MSalamence, without actually being setup fodder for anything really unlike CroBro (Sub Mence says hi!). However, I'm not really sure what kind of team you're supposed to use it on? It kills too much momentum for offense and you usually want a better mega that isn't just a slightly improved version of its regular forme, and you realistically aren't really going to use it on Stall because even if you're not using MSableye (which.. why would you not use MSableye?) MAltaria and MLatias are also great picks which differentiate themselves more in what they do from their base formes (you can run regular Slowbro and get more-or-less the same results)
also Magnezone, MAero, MLatias and MAltaria def need to move up lol.
Also, what actually counters this thing? And I don't mean "switches in and beats it from there", I mean properly counter it, aka switching into it repetidely without any support. The only thing I can think of are Clefable, Sylveon, and Altaria. Everything else (Gardevoir, Tentacruel, Diancie, Talonflame) gets worn down by it. It's one of the most meta-defining Pokemon in the tier, puts in work regardless of matchup (even when there's a Clefable on the opposing team it still usually pulls its weight) and it requires specific measures if you want to actually beat it, and even then it can sweep teams without too much difficulty. It also has excellent synergy with a few really solid Pokemon on stall such as Tentacruel and Jirachi to the point where building around it is really easy. Right now the typical stall team is something along the lines of Sableye/Tentacruel or Empoleon/Jirachi (I know Jukain uses Doublade but eh)/Clefable/Chansey (or Blissey b/c Lando-I/Gengar are things that exist)/Skarmory or Chesnaught or Hippowdon some other physical wall, and for good reason.
Mega-Sableye is an absolutely dominant force in the current metagame and I don't really see why it wouldn't be deserving of S rank.
Oh yeah speaking of Jirachi.
I've taken up team rating recently (I swear this is going somewhere), and the single Pokemon I found myself recommending the most frequently was Jirachi. Now, this may well be just me, but I really do feel like Jirachi fits on a huge amount of teams in this metagame, being a staple on Stall and pretty much the best fairykiller in the tier in general, having excellent synergy with many new megas such as the aforementioned Sableye, Latias, and Altaria, and providing a ton of utility in general with Wish, Body Slam, Stealth Rock, U-Turn, Healing Wish... It's not just to be used on defensive teams and can be tailored quite easily to fit on offensive ones in general. It's also an excellent special wall in general and although it suffers from the popularity of Dark Pulse on Greninja, it's able to handle big threats such as Mega-Diancie (Earth Power doesn't do enough), Mega-Sceptile, non EQ MMetagross, and Mega-Gardevoir (who I've discovered kinda steamrolls a ton on ORAS teams). I'm really not sure whether it's A rank material or not (A- is still really high especially considering that it used to be unranked), but it has been putting a really impressive amount of work for me lately, so I think this still needs to be discussed.
Mega-Slowbro I'm not sure about. Crobro is not an A+ set imo, it's taken advantage of too easily and stopped by quite a few things. But a simple set of Scald, Ice Beam, Toxic/Thunder Wave, and Slack Off walls a ton of stuff, including MSalamence, without actually being setup fodder for anything really unlike CroBro (Sub Mence says hi!). However, I'm not really sure what kind of team you're supposed to use it on? It kills too much momentum for offense and you usually want a better mega that isn't just a slightly improved version of its regular forme, and you realistically aren't really going to use it on Stall because even if you're not using MSableye (which.. why would you not use MSableye?) MAltaria and MLatias are also great picks which differentiate themselves more in what they do from their base formes (you can run regular Slowbro and get more-or-less the same results)
also Magnezone, MAero, MLatias and MAltaria def need to move up lol.
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I have not touched Mega Medicham in a while, but is it overshadowed by Mega Gallade to the point where a drop is warranted? Mega Gallade is faster and has access to Swords Dance to increase its attack power farther than that of MMedi; however, the immediate power is noticeable, though I am mostly touching theorymon at this point. Has anybody who has used Mega Medicham in the ORAS ladder agree that it warrants a drop?
I also have one other question; is Crunch Mega Gyarados overhyped, or is it really good enough to make it rise to A+?
I also have one other question; is Crunch Mega Gyarados overhyped, or is it really good enough to make it rise to A+?
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
->A-/B+alright. terrakion is probably one of the biggest victims of this speed creep. but, there's more than the speed creep. mega lopunny and mega gallade both present issues for terrakion as not only do they outspeed, they outclass to an extent. it cant use SD efficiently anymore, it's once prized coverage has been thrown out compared to lopunny, and the only thing it has over these 2 is stealth rock. thats it. i'd honestly drop it lower, but that would cause an uproar.
also, gonna nominate diancie(mega) to A+
it's a great stallbreaker. magic bounce, CM, coverage, ability to beat almost everything you see on stall, sky-high attacking stats, and not completely deadweight against offense. for an idea of its usable movepool:
moonblast
diamond storm
earth power
psyshock(beats chansey)
stealth rock(its an offensive setter that beats sableye)
rock polish
calm mind
hidden power(fire obv)
this is a big usable movepool, which combined, beats everything on stall(cm+moonblast+earth power+psyshock is best at it imo). and it can be used to beat offensive teams! rock polish, diamond storm, earth power, and moonblast is great at defeating offense. and as mega sableye gives control to stall teams, diancie takes it away to an extent. you cant set up hazards against it, you cant roar it, you cant toxic it, all you can do is hit it with the weak attacks stall usually uses. or set up on it, but diancie will set up right back. it also has not too shabby bulk, which just exacerbates the generally weak attacks stall packs to the point where it's near-unwinnable.
diancie->a+
Mega Sableye: A- ---> S Rank
EDIT; It appears Albacore shares a similar idea n_n.
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naturalstupidity
formerly The Imposter
I've used SubDD Mega Gyarados recently and my god is it good. Sets up on half of the meta (I've set up on Power Whip Ferrothorn with this thing before ffs), and now that it has Crunch it can do serious damage to many things that would otherwise check it. The drop in usage of things like Azumarill and Clefable that were common checks to it is very, very nice. It beats every stall mega handily (subs up versus mega sableye and dds in its face, same thing with mega slowbro and latias), although Mega Altaria is a serious thorn in this thing's side. I'm not sure if its enough to make it rise per se, but it's certainly able to pull its weight even in a meta filled with insanely powerful megas. I used to think that it should drop, but now I'm realizing just how potent it is. Mega Gyarados for A/A+. I'm leaning A+ right now but I can settle for A.
I'm surprised I haven't really seen mentions of this, but Rotom-W for A+. Rotom-W is just insanely good right now. Sand offense and birdspam have rapidly increased in usage, and VoltTurn cores are better than ever. Rotom-W is an insanely splashable Pokemon that gains momentum against a large portion of the metagame. With all of the new threats running around that Rotom-W walls, I believe that Rotom-W is solidly A+.
Haven't used Sable stall yet so I'll have to try that but from what I've seen it's at least A+. Will update later once I've used it more.
Mega Medicham is definitely not bad in this meta, but it's gotten worse. Due to Mega Slowbro and Mega Sableye's increased physical bulk, Thunderpunch 2HKO's these two at best. Bulky psychics are also on the rise, and this isn't god either. That being said, Fake Out is still super useful to lead or kill a weakened Greninja or Talonflame. Mediham is also fantastic vs. bulky offense because it can KO most stuff it outspeeds on those teams. It should go down to B+ imo.
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