Mega Aero does have the distinction of being one of the more solid switch-ins to all Mega Mences (the other being Zapdos), and fits better on offensive teams. Otherwise A- seems fine for Mega Aero.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
- Thread starter alexwolf
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I will be on vacations abroad from tomorrow until 29-30 of November, which means i will have limited access to Smogon, or no access at all. During this time, if you are bored of discussing about A and A- ranks you can go on to discussing about B+ and B ranks, just take it easy and be patient, because no update will be happening until i get back, unless someone else from the ranking team is willing to lead the thread during my absence. Sucks that i won't be around during the first weak that ORAS will be officially released but oh well... So see you in a few days guys!
I just want to point out that I can't actually think of a scarfer that fits on one slot that checks all of the offensive threats lol. I'd much rather have 1 slot to do this, rather than 2/3, as then I have less slots to tackle all the new threats on stall, which sucks for offence.
It's certainly harder for it to do it's job because of this, but consider the following. Weavile usage increase looks as if it's staying around, but all of that Mamoswine usage rising seems to be exclusively due to Mega Salamence, who's very likely to be banned. Weavile is certainly something to consider keeping it out of A+ though.
Also MegaScizor, I just want to point out that due to a decrease of usage and viability in Azumarill, Aqua Jet far more rare than something like Talonflame's Brave Bird. Again, one scarfer or Talonflame is either not checking all of these threats at once, not checking Mega Salamence in the process, or X4 weak to rocks as opposed to X2 and killing itself with recoil in the process. Not saying that Talonflame isn't viable or anything, just saying that Mega Aero is probably a superior check in this instance. Mega Aerodactyl could very well carry offence into this new metagame due to the ridiculous amount of things it checks for a team in 1 single slot, making it extremely effective and easy to fit on a number of offensive teams. Surely feels like an A Rank Pokemon to me, considering what's actually in A Rank atm (things like MAlt need to move up.)
Sorry but some Mega will have to drop.
Even with Mega Salamence banned, I notice that there will (probably) a lot of Megas in the A ranks.
Supposed future ranks:
Mega Metagross: S
Mega Sableye: A+/S
Mega Charizard X: A+
Mega Gardevoir: A+
Mega Scizor: A+
Mega Altaria: A+
Mega Gyarados: A+
Mega Lopunny: A/A+
Mega Diancie: A/A+
Mega Pinsir A/A+
Mega Latias: A/A
Mega Manectric: A
Mega Charizard Y: A
mega Venusaur: A
Mega Aerodactyl: A
Mega Slowbro: A
In other words, you are putting 15 Megas in the A rank. And 7/10 of them are being nominated to A+/S rank (the best rank).
Sorry but I have to remember that being a Mega has a big opportunity cost compared to the rest of the team simply because you can only use one Mega per team. I can't have a team with a Mega Gyarados, Mega Lopunny and Mega Diancie, even though (in theory) it could be a way to have an offensive team, but I can't because the 1-Mega rule.
Given that, I think that even though many of these Megas deserve a high ranking because they are excellent pokemon y their own, I think the viability ranking of them should take in account that you can't use multiple Megas in a single team.
I'm not actually giving any nominations because I don't know well yet the OR/AS metagame. I only posted this because I thought too many megas are in the highest ranks.
Even with Mega Salamence banned, I notice that there will (probably) a lot of Megas in the A ranks.
Supposed future ranks:
Mega Metagross: S
Mega Sableye: A+/S
Mega Charizard X: A+
Mega Gardevoir: A+
Mega Scizor: A+
Mega Altaria: A+
Mega Gyarados: A+
Mega Lopunny: A/A+
Mega Diancie: A/A+
Mega Pinsir A/A+
Mega Latias: A/A
Mega Manectric: A
Mega Charizard Y: A
mega Venusaur: A
Mega Aerodactyl: A
Mega Slowbro: A
In other words, you are putting 15 Megas in the A rank. And 7/10 of them are being nominated to A+/S rank (the best rank).
Sorry but I have to remember that being a Mega has a big opportunity cost compared to the rest of the team simply because you can only use one Mega per team. I can't have a team with a Mega Gyarados, Mega Lopunny and Mega Diancie, even though (in theory) it could be a way to have an offensive team, but I can't because the 1-Mega rule.
Given that, I think that even though many of these Megas deserve a high ranking because they are excellent pokemon y their own, I think the viability ranking of them should take in account that you can't use multiple Megas in a single team.
I'm not actually giving any nominations because I don't know well yet the OR/AS metagame. I only posted this because I thought too many megas are in the highest ranks.
The Mega Evolutions are ranked that high because they're legitimately that good. Also, Mega Pinsir is dropping to B for the time being, so make that 14 Pokémon. Honestly, I really don't know how this is an argument to outright drop Mega Evolutions just because they're Mega Evolutions. They do face competition for the slot, yes, but the main draw is that Mega Evolutions are chosen depending on what the team requires, rendering your argument invalid.
This has most likely been discussed to death, but:
Mega Gyarados for A+
Gaining access to Crunch gave this Mega Shrimp a new lease of life. Many of the Pokemon that have been able to wall him, such as Slowbro, Cresselia and to a lesser extent, Ferrothorn, can no longer switch in thinking they'll be relatively unscathed.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 210-248 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 145-172 (41.1 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (note that not every Ferro set uses max Defense like this)
Also, thanks to having access to Mold Breaker, Mega Gyarados can actually use Taunt against perhaps the best stallmon atm, Mega Sableye, neutering it completely and being able to 2HKO max defense variants with both its STABs at +1, not to mention that Mega Sableye can't do anything back to Mega Gyarados after it's Taunted, as Knock Off, Dark Pulse and Shadow Ball don't do jack against him, forcing a switch, which gains another free DD for Mega Gyarados.
Gaining access to Crunch gave this Mega Shrimp a new lease of life. Many of the Pokemon that have been able to wall him, such as Slowbro, Cresselia and to a lesser extent, Ferrothorn, can no longer switch in thinking they'll be relatively unscathed.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 210-248 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 145-172 (41.1 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (note that not every Ferro set uses max Defense like this)
Also, thanks to having access to Mold Breaker, Mega Gyarados can actually use Taunt against perhaps the best stallmon atm, Mega Sableye, neutering it completely and being able to 2HKO max defense variants with both its STABs at +1, not to mention that Mega Sableye can't do anything back to Mega Gyarados after it's Taunted, as Knock Off, Dark Pulse and Shadow Ball don't do jack against him, forcing a switch, which gains another free DD for Mega Gyarados.
You are right in that Megas have the 1-Mega cost that shouldn't be ignored, but to add to what Kyuzeth said: if I can make equally good teams around either Mega Gyarados or Mega Altaria using roughly the same team support, why can't they both have the same rank? The same is true for many of the Megas: if building a team around one mega requires about the same support as building around another, the rankings should reflect this and put them both in the same rank. Dropping a mega that isn't outclassed by another mega simply because they're both megas makes so sense. I'm all for dropping megas who are now more or less outclassed by other megas (i.e. dropping Mega Medicham down to the B-Ranks), but we shouldn't start dropping Megas in rank just because we feel like there are too many in the A-ranks.
Since A and A- have been talked to death and alexwolf has given permission going to make a couple of noms in the b ranks
Skarmory B+ > A-
Zapdos B > B+
These two are probably hands down the best mence counters which are in much need in this meta. Zapdos gets special mention for being able to beat special sets also. They can also wall many other prominent threats in the meta and are overall very good pokes.
Skarmory B+ > A-
Zapdos B > B+
These two are probably hands down the best mence counters which are in much need in this meta. Zapdos gets special mention for being able to beat special sets also. They can also wall many other prominent threats in the meta and are overall very good pokes.
I am not sugesting anything but Cloyster should have a better rank because I think it can check many Mega Evolutions ORAS like Altaria, Latios and Salamence, I don't have much experience but I leave my thoughts here
I think D ----> C would be more fair
I think D ----> C would be more fair
How does it check them? Got any calcs, examples, replays?
Not backed up I just said from what i saw but i'll try to make my homework and correct my opinion if its wrong :) as I said I have little experience
Thing is, Cloyster isn't really a "check" to anything. It's supposed to be used as a sweeper, and the huge amount of support it requires makes it a very niche option and is the reason it's no higher than D. If you just want an Ice Shard user that can stop you from getting destroyed by Sceptile, look no further than Mamoswine or Weavile. Cloyster without a boost is just too weak to do much of anything really, so as a revenge killer, it's just outclassed by these two.
btw here are the calcs :
252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria: 140-166 (48.1 - 57%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 182-218 (60.2 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def MegaSalamence: 239-286 (60.8 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
see what I mean? (though to be fair, only one of these can actually OHKO you back from full, but you obviously can't assume you're going to be at full especially with that SR weakness)
btw here are the calcs :
252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria: 140-166 (48.1 - 57%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 182-218 (60.2 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def MegaSalamence: 239-286 (60.8 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
see what I mean? (though to be fair, only one of these can actually OHKO you back from full, but you obviously can't assume you're going to be at full especially with that SR weakness)
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I know this has been discussed a lot already, but I think Mega Sableye deserves A/A+, but not S. People have argued some solid points on its versatility, and I agree that it fulfills multiple roles very nicely by delaying Mega Evolution, but it loses a lot of initiative after doing so. You risk spamming Recover incessantly against strong offense, while you can't get in the Taunts and Will-o-Wisps you need to stall out. Plus, after going Mega, almost anything can get in a Sub and proceed to set up on you. There's also been a huge bias towards new Megas in our current meta, so a lot of the supposed success of Mega Sableye teams in the ladder now may not mean much when the allure of all the new Megas begins to die down and we start seeing Mega Zard X/Y, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Gyarados regain usage. I love Mega Sableye and all, but eventually teams are going to be able to adapt to it with answers other than Clefable.
I was convinced of this recently. The "New Toy Syndrome" has been very kind to mSableye. However, once people get over their experimental phase
So, without stealing too much your thunder, I second this despite what I said on the previous pages.
I'd like to discuss two Pokemon whose presence here puzzles me: Gorebyss and Gastrodon.
I'd really like to know what makes them viable in OU.
Also, I second (or third, or fouth, lol) Mega Manectric's rise to A+. The thing has a great speed tier, can switch into some threats thanks to Intimidate, and in general is very powerful and easy to throw on a team. I'd say it's a viable choice for a Mega slot.
I'd really like to know what makes them viable in OU.
Also, I second (or third, or fouth, lol) Mega Manectric's rise to A+. The thing has a great speed tier, can switch into some threats thanks to Intimidate, and in general is very powerful and easy to throw on a team. I'd say it's a viable choice for a Mega slot.
This is off-topic (Gorebyss =/= A) but anyways, Gorebyss can be used for SmashPass, and Gastrodon checks Waters not carrying GK or HP Grass thanks to Storm Drain and instant recovery.
As well as hard stopping the two most common weather types in OU. Namely Rain, which is extremely helpful in some cases especially with the rise mPert will be enforcing.
I'd move Manaphy from A- to B+. Other than the fact that Lil Manaphy is a terrible user, Manaphy suffers from a number of flaws. For one thing, its 100-all-around stats, while solid, are far from exemplary. Several common Pokemon, like Sceptile-M and Thundurus, can come in and OHKO (Rotom-W can also be problematic.) That being said, given the right support, Manaphy can be a devastating sweeper--whether one uses the Calm Mind Rain set or the Tail Glow set. Without the right support, however, Manaphy is unlikely to be an effective sweeper, which separates it from A- Pokemon like Sceptile-M, who can sweep with fairly minimal support.
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Nominating Breloom for A-. With the decrease in M-Venusaur and other bulky grass types in OU, and the decrease in M-Heracross and M-Medicham as leads, most teams I face find themselves lacking a dedicated counter, allowing it to pull off its old shenanigans with relative impunity. It also functions as a good check to Megabro and Megalop. I've used it on nearly every team I've run on the current ladder, and it's almost always pulled its weight.
The notion that Mega Manectric is "strong" or "powerful" in any manner is simply not true. In fact, I'd count the opposite as one of Mega Manectric's biggest flaws. It has base 135 Special Attack with no boosting and relatively low BP moves. By XY standards, this is relatively weak; for reference, it doesn't even 2HKO 252/0 Clefable with Thunderbolt. Albacore I feel you are vastly underrating the value and necessity of Thunderbolt for Mega Manectric when implicating that it can be replaced by Protect. Thunderbolt is important because it's Mega Manectric's only source of real power and a reliable move with which to hit Pokemon like Roost Talonflame, Mega Slowbro, Gengar, Mega Charizard Y, AV Azumarill, Mega Lopunny, weakened Clefable, Keldeo 1v1, and bulky Water-type Pokemon in general. You can and will lose games because you're running Protect instead of Thunderbolt; I have seen this happen before. Protect is an inferior option.
In any case, Mega Manectric is easily checked by common Pokemon like Scarf Landorus-T, Latios, Latias, Rotom-W with a bit of SDef (248/124 to avoid the 2HKO from Greninja suffices), Mamoswine, Heatran, Mega Altaria, Clefable, Tyranitar, Mega Swampert on rain teams, Wish SDef Jirachi, Chansey, and Mega Sceptile. Furthermore, Pokemon like Mega Gallade, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir, and Excadrill in sand can easily take it on 1v1. I would expect an A+ or even A Rank offensive Pokemon that doesn't get many switch-in opportunities to threaten more and not lose against so many common foes. I can't place Mega Manectric on the level of Pokemon like Mega Gallade, Mega Charizard X, Landorus-T, Excadrill, or Mamoswine. In regards to overall viability, Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, Gliscor, and Mega Latias are generally far superior. The overall Speed creep, including Pokemon like Mega Sceptile, Mega Beedrill, and Mega Aerodactyl as well as an increase in certain Choice Scarf users such as Latios and Keldeo; the higher level of bulk in the metagame as a whole, even for offensive Pokemon; and the addition of even more checks and counters to Mega Manectric make it more fit for a drop to A- Rank than a rise to A+ Rank.
In any case, Mega Manectric is easily checked by common Pokemon like Scarf Landorus-T, Latios, Latias, Rotom-W with a bit of SDef (248/124 to avoid the 2HKO from Greninja suffices), Mamoswine, Heatran, Mega Altaria, Clefable, Tyranitar, Mega Swampert on rain teams, Wish SDef Jirachi, Chansey, and Mega Sceptile. Furthermore, Pokemon like Mega Gallade, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir, and Excadrill in sand can easily take it on 1v1. I would expect an A+ or even A Rank offensive Pokemon that doesn't get many switch-in opportunities to threaten more and not lose against so many common foes. I can't place Mega Manectric on the level of Pokemon like Mega Gallade, Mega Charizard X, Landorus-T, Excadrill, or Mamoswine. In regards to overall viability, Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, Gliscor, and Mega Latias are generally far superior. The overall Speed creep, including Pokemon like Mega Sceptile, Mega Beedrill, and Mega Aerodactyl as well as an increase in certain Choice Scarf users such as Latios and Keldeo; the higher level of bulk in the metagame as a whole, even for offensive Pokemon; and the addition of even more checks and counters to Mega Manectric make it more fit for a drop to A- Rank than a rise to A+ Rank.
Can you be more specific with mega manectric? I am really struggling to see the argument to move him up. Like what is he switching into? What do you mean it's easy to throw on a team?
I'm not so sure I agree with dropping Manaphy. Manaphy was never A- because of its sweeping capabilities; it's never been that good against offense thanks to its mediocre speed, and I don't think ORAS really hurt its relationship with offense. Sceptile does exist now, and that does hurt Manaphy, but then again, Greninja is a lot more common now, and Manaphy checks it rather well. Manaphy can also check Diancie decently and remove a sand team's sand, so I don't think saying Manaphy's worse against offense is fair. Manaphy's recent claim to fame, and why it was A- in the first place, was for its ability to basically 6-0 all stall teams lacking Ferrothorn, and with the recent increase in usage of Magnezone, this job is even easier. Additionally, Manaphy has a good relationship v. the new staple mon on stall: Mega Sableye. Manaphy boosts +3 SpA in the same time Mega Sableye boosts +1 SpD, so Manaphy can easily overpower Sableye. You may be thinking, well, Mega Slowbro walls Manaphy, and can use it as set up bait, right? Wrong. Psychic was used on Manaphy for hitting Venusaur and Amoonguss, both of which are a lot less common. Energy Ball is actually really good on TGRD Manaphy, and it lets it beat Mega Slowbro, as well as other previous targets of Psychic, namely Rotom-W. Also, Mega Sceptile was tentatively placed in A-, so I don't think comparing it to Manaphy makes sense, when a majority of people agreed (to my knowledge) on Sceptile rising to A. I agree that Sceptile is better than Manaphy, but that's mainly because it should go up, rather than Manaphy going down.
Cloyster can smash on Mega Mence and DD / defensive Mega Altaria fairly easily, and can break Mence's subs, but it needs SR off the field to beat Mence reliably, considering Fire Blast deals about 75%. As for Latios, Draco Meteor OHKOes even at -2. Maybe it deserves to rise to C-.
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
so we can discuss b+/b ranks now? here's something i've been waiting to do for a long time:
->B+
mega camerupt is a monster. it's got power to match that volcano on its back. but while its clear to anybody with some semblance of mental capacity that mega camerupt is strong as fuck, it also has some other qualities that push it to b+. for one, its defensive typing is glamorous. electric immunity and bug resist make it one of the hardest stops to voltturn, and its bulk allows it to function as a check to things like talonflame, sceptile, bisharp, and some things that i am missing. and because 95% of the time you will be using earth power/fire blast, you have 2 extra moveslots, which camerupt can use. it has access to ancient power, wisp, rocks(but i wouldnt really recommend camel as a rocks setter, because you could be nuking the shit out of stuff), yawn(i've seen it seriously used), and substitute. also, some of the stuff in b such as crawdaunt, scizor, alomomola, amoonguss, etc. arent really as good as camerupt is. so, camel->b+.
->B+mega camerupt is a monster. it's got power to match that volcano on its back. but while its clear to anybody with some semblance of mental capacity that mega camerupt is strong as fuck, it also has some other qualities that push it to b+. for one, its defensive typing is glamorous. electric immunity and bug resist make it one of the hardest stops to voltturn, and its bulk allows it to function as a check to things like talonflame, sceptile, bisharp, and some things that i am missing. and because 95% of the time you will be using earth power/fire blast, you have 2 extra moveslots, which camerupt can use. it has access to ancient power, wisp, rocks(but i wouldnt really recommend camel as a rocks setter, because you could be nuking the shit out of stuff), yawn(i've seen it seriously used), and substitute. also, some of the stuff in b such as crawdaunt, scizor, alomomola, amoonguss, etc. arent really as good as camerupt is. so, camel->b+.
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