Mega Camel niche is not just in Trick Room, else it wouldn't be ranked in B since Trick Room is pretty hard to mantain. Instead its best niche is cockblocking every Volt Switcher in the game bar Rotom-W and being an amazing member of FWG cores because of this trait; the Pokémon which would be more comparable to it is Bulky Charizard X, which is faster and has recovery, but Camerupt is stronger, doesn't require anti-hazard support and actually blocks Volt Switch.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
- Thread starter alexwolf
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DaVolterbomb
Banned deucer.
I hate to be the savior here, but the reason why P2 isn't B is cause it doesn't do more than that. It does wall Greninja pretty well, there isn't no disagreeing on that, but it by no means takes out MMence cause it has Ice Beam and decent bulk. Porygon2 with its PHYSICAL DEFENSIVE SET cannot switch into +1 Mence, making it a mere check. Most of the time, MMence won't be in with P2 when P2 is out. Lets not also mention his Sub sets, that totally fucks over P2, which his Sub set is really popular to make it worse.
EDIT: oh my god what was that I posted.
Porygon2 fucks over Greninja sets, but he definitely has a shitload of flaws. No pokemon should ever 100% rely on its Item, but P2 does. Once his Item gets knocked off (Which it will cause Knock Off is so popular) he is not bulky anymore, and everything can topple it.
P2 also suffers from Speed. Its self explanatory, but having Recovery isn't that great if you can't recover first.
It also got really shitty in the meta now. Gets taken out by many new megas and knock off got like 10x more popular, so even things like Greninja can actually 2HKO Physically Defensive P2 with Rocks up (Even then, Specially Defensive set dies to Low Kick.)
TL;DR: P2 is shit cause of Knock Off. It turns into a slow sitting duck that is waiting to be set up on.
Greninja Calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Porygon2: 208-246 (55.6 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Porygon2: 182-218 (48.6 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
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Minor question, but why are you nominating it for a lower rank (it's in A currently) when your statement seems to suggest you think it improved.
Two important traits about Camerupt I think aren't being mentioned are being a strong Fire type neutral to SR, a trait only shared with Heatran among OU Fire-Types, and immunity to both Thunder Wave (even if his speed sucks, no one likes getting haxed by it) and WoW (avoids passive damage mainly). Camerupt actually makes a pretty good Status absorber, and against Stall at least has more longevity than the Zards, Kyub, Thundurus, Pinsir as an offensive/Wallbreaker mon. Against Stall I think this important since, against a well built team, the playstyle necessitates a good deal of switching and counter-switching, which causes hazards to add up faster. What compounds this is Mega Sableye offering more control over hazards, making it significantly harder to get Rocks on the Stall field to punish them as it does you. Camerupt actually beats Physically defensive/CM Sableye if they're in at the same time, even if it's Sableye's Prankster turn
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 262-310 (86.1 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 196-232 (64.4 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. +2 252 HP / 252 SpD Sableye: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD (Mega) Sableye: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA (Mega) Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 109-129 (31.6 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
On the other hand, rocks means Zard-Y can't have prior damage to win in the same situation.
+1 0 SpA (Mega) Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 102-120 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD (Mega) Sableye in Sun: 186-220 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 196-232 (64.4 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. +2 252 HP / 252 SpD Sableye: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD (Mega) Sableye: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA (Mega) Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 109-129 (31.6 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
On the other hand, rocks means Zard-Y can't have prior damage to win in the same situation.
+1 0 SpA (Mega) Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 102-120 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD (Mega) Sableye in Sun: 186-220 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
What I think is worth noting is that if both come in, Camerupt forces Sableye to Mega, since it can't take any hits in base form. The surface advantage is Mega Sableye being one of the few things Camerupt can speed tie/creep (if it's really that important), so it's easier to beat the Stall Mega. Below that, however, is the fact that forcing it to Mega means the other player loses Prankster's Utility, which is a big deal for Sableye. Without Prankster, it can't heal or spread burns with nearly the same effectiveness, and no priority on a boost increases the number of things that can check it, since Physical attackers like Azumarill can hit it without fearing a burn. Considering Mega Sableye is one of the two premier Stallmons, I think that is noteworthy for the matchup in Camerupt's favor. Eliminating Sableye, or even just forcing it to Mega or switch can throw off a Stall team, since Mega Camerupt's power leaves a relatively small list of switch-ins that the player can prepare for if they aren't already.
Just being a Special attacker that can't beat Chansey is not enough on its own to drop Cam. Zard-Y is still sitting in the Upper A-ranks despite that
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 160-190 (24.9 - 29.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 202-238 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 178-210 (25.2 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
However, my point is only that when arguing against a raise or for a drop, either other points should be emphasized instead, or it needs to be elaborated what in combination with this makes it such a problem for Camperupt. For example, an earlier point that Camerupt's speed means 2HKOs mean little against anything with recovery. That explains why Camerupt's problem with Chansey is worth keeping down, rather than only the surface problem it shares with Zard-Y.
My end point is Camerupt to Stay or Rise to B+. In addition to being a wallbreaker, it has a decent match up against stall thanks to Rock neutrality and status immunities, as well as hard stopping Volt-Switchers or non-Rotom-W Electrics.
DaVolterbomb
Banned deucer.
hate to say it, because I'm seeing MegaScizor in the back, but i honestly think MScizor should go down to A or possibly A-.
With the ever increase of Heatran, HP Fire Lati@s, hard hitting Megas, and Magnezone, it just can't handle the meta at all. Also, he has been seeing almost NO usage at all, making him not only unpopular, but kinda crappy. Just my 2 cents, but someone can prove me wrong.
Also, A isn't to bad at all! Things like Rotom W, Slowbro-Mega and Slowbro, MSableye, a shitload of amazing Megas, etc.
EDIT: Don't know why my font is small :[
With the ever increase of Heatran, HP Fire Lati@s, hard hitting Megas, and Magnezone, it just can't handle the meta at all. Also, he has been seeing almost NO usage at all, making him not only unpopular, but kinda crappy. Just my 2 cents, but someone can prove me wrong.
Also, A isn't to bad at all! Things like Rotom W, Slowbro-Mega and Slowbro, MSableye, a shitload of amazing Megas, etc.
EDIT: Don't know why my font is small :[
Offensive M-Scizor and M-Scizor itself is good, really good on balanced, hyper offensive, and volt-turn builds. The rising usage of Unaware Clefable, M-Altaria, Specially Defensive Heatran, M-Aerodactyl, M-Lopunny, among various other metagame trends makes M-Scizor plenty viable. A reliable user of priority who has the bulk and resistance to set up on numerous threats is always appreciated and M-Scizor is definitely a very solid mon. Also usage doesn't necessarily equate to viability and usage is really hard to use as justification on a metagame that needs M-Mence gone and time to actually settle once this occurs.
While I do agree that Porygon2 is not as splashable on stall, I feel that you're really underselling it. First, it has better physical bulk than Chansey if you invest in it physically:
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 381-448 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 148-175 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Chansey will have better mixed bulk at any given moment, true, but in a meta that tends to focus more on physical attacks, with proper team building you can get over its lack of mixed bulk. In addition, it's a lot less passive than Chansey since it can at least threaten to revenge kill a +1 Mence if it isn't behind a sub, something that Chansey can't really do. It may not be able to straight-up kill a large portion of the meta, but being able to threaten to kill Lando while threatening to revenge kill other threats such as non-mega Lati@s is a noteworthy niche. This isn't to say that it needs to go up in the rankings, but I think you're being just a bit harsh about it. Also, you know what else "heavily relies on Items" and "sucks dick" when it loses it? Chansey. Don't see anyone saying it's unviable, though.
DaVolterbomb
Banned deucer.
I mean, the only reason i think it should drop is its 4x weakness being more popular, but i did forget it has SD. It does have access to recovery, too.
Even then, when you say usage doesn't = viability, then the rising usage of the mons you posted shouldn't affect its rise, right? Or were you talking about the pokemon itself?
tbh the only reason i want it down is cause of MMence cause it unbalances the meta so fkn much. also MScizor does have a great Defense stat, but I think he would be AMAZING with a higher HP stat. but I honestly can see him getting mega slot competition when you can use other hard hitting wallbreakers like MGallade, MMence, MBee (who can also serve as a Volt Switch core member) and such.
Chansey also has considerable SpDef bulk and can still survive a lot of attacks from stuff it checks, even with a 50% decrease in defenses. P2, on the other hand, has to stick with an OK 85/80/95 bulk. When he loses his Evio, he also loses out on checking pokemon, and he now has a lot of trouble recovering without being 2HKO'ed against things like MMence and Ninja, things it was supposed to check.
sure, i was making it look bad, but it wasn't much better than what i said before.
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Well, that's an odd way to look at it. Honestly, we have about 3-4 days I'm sure of worrying about mence
Usage is a good indicator for viability similar to how Thundurus' usage dropped in XY due to the increase of bulky offense, hence one of its factors in its drop from S to A+ in XY meta. It's a factor but not an exact criteria which was what I was trying to say, and it's a factor that is hard to consider in the current state of ORAS.
Yeah MMence unbalances a lot of things but not going to bother to argue a point that everyone pretty much agrees on. M-Gallade doesn't have reliable priority and is generally designed as a wallbreaker of sorts with a very neutral typing that doesn't provide the most fantastic of defensive synergy. MMence is Mmence nothing else needs to be said. MBeedrill is fantastic at being an offensive u-turner that can punch holes with Adaptability but is has the defenses of a wet paper bag and an SR weakness that complicates its U-Turning abilities. All these have their pros and cons but opportunity cost in terms of something being a mega is more in terms if something provides a similar role or has similar traits, such as M-Garchomp v Kyurem-B for example. Ranking is defined by how efficient it can be used in the metagame if we consider its role being used effectively in a setting where both players are at the very least exceptional players, at least in my eyes. Just food for thought really.
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Lol i'm not trying to downplay mega camerupt's speed at all, I think you're just not understanding the context here. Lemme explain this a little clearer:
Chansey can switch into mega camerupt when it is at 45% with rocks up and STILL OUTSTALL IT. SWITCHING IN.
Trust me any other special wallbreaker worth its shit can do 33% to a chansey in 2 turns lol (2 because ur said special wallbreaker hopefully outspeeds); mega camerupt can too but its too slow to do that, which brings this back to my main point.
Tentacruel: C Rank ---> B- Rank / B Rank
If anything Scizor got better in ORAS, not worse. Both versions. A defensive Steel type that isn't weak to Earthquake and can hit as hard as it can is really valuable. It's strong, bulky, has recovery, can Defog, has STAB U-Turn which is very useful on HO and BO, and while it is a 4x weakness, it still only has ONE weakness, compared to EIGHT resistances and an immunity. That is far from poor defensive typing, if anything it's one of the best. Scizor is particularly better because of the increase in offensive Fairy, Dragon and Steel moves. It's a great answer to Mega Altaria for example. Scizor remains where it is because it is easy to slap on to a multitude of teams, fulfill multiple functions, and perform them well.
You shouldn't do damage calcualations based on Pory2 without Evolite, because skilled players will not allow Pory2 to lose Evolite. It's not like every pokemon in OU is using Knock off, which is a punishable move itself now more than ever. Also, in what situation is Porygon 2 switching into +1 Mence? Mence has to DD to get to +1 and Pory2 should already be in after that.
Chansey is dependent on Evolite and I don't see it anywhere near C Tier.
Mega Scizor is fine where it is. It really didn't gain an outright terrible match-ups with new Megas, hell even MegaRupt can't switch in on Offensive SD Mega Scizor, because +2 Superpower has ~56% chance to OHKO. I think Mega Scizor actually got better in ORAS. It does have one nasty weakness, but that's a worthy trade-off for having no other weaknesses and a ton of useful resists. It's also got great bulk, even when you don't invest anything in it. Mega Scizor also has tremendous versatility between defensive Defog sets, bulky SD sets, offensive SD sets, and Roost + 3 attack sets. It's got a very good Technician movepool and good coverage beyond that. Very worth of an A+ rank imo, and it's one of the most well rounded and versatile threats out there.
Mega Scizor actually seems quite good atm. A bulky setup pokemon that is a very good priority user has plenty of place on balance/ bulky teams and Volt-Turn teams make use of it too. Not to mention it has an alright matchup vs most of the new megas, bar mence but I won't speak of it. Its just not very popular atm due to the new toy syndrome, but as was said above me most times usage doesn't affect viability.
I think we should probably drop Mega Tyranitar to about B rank. It used to be a good mega a long time ago, but by the end of XY I think it was really more of a mega to slip in when your team was void of another than a mega that one built a team around. In this way it's a lot like Mega Latios in that it's an improvement- but it doesn't do much. Ferrothorn is still the king it was in XY for the most part, and until that goes away, Tyranitar can never shine. You can run fire punch, but Landorus-T being the best thing around is kind of an issue. Especially with all the new megas, the opportunity cost of using Mega Tyranitar is huge when there is usually a mega that will fit better for one reason or another. The Dragon Dance set isn't that powerful against bulky pokemon, and Stone Edge is unreliable, as well as Keldeo and Ferrothorn and Landorus-T ruining Tyranitar's day. It's ridiculously bulky, but there isn't much it does.
Sceptile also needs to drop to B+ I think. Dragon Pulse off that Special Attack is just not that formidable, and it's also weak to like a lot of prominent types, which makes it really hard to get in. I just don't see how we can justify it being on par with offensive monsters with the mediocre damage output and unimpressive typing.
Sceptile also needs to drop to B+ I think. Dragon Pulse off that Special Attack is just not that formidable, and it's also weak to like a lot of prominent types, which makes it really hard to get in. I just don't see how we can justify it being on par with offensive monsters with the mediocre damage output and unimpressive typing.
I strongly disagree with this one, as, while Mega Sceptile doesn't have the best stats defensively, its Water and Electric immunity provide it at least one opportunity to switch in, even its ground resistance has some merit. More importantly, Sceptile just beats 90% of HO teams really hard and even bulky offensive teams have a really hard time versus it. Base 145 Speed is enough to outspeed most of the meta, and its STABs plus Focus Blast alone is enough to 2HKO the majority of the meta, and in HO teams and even bulky offensive teams without Mega Altaria you really struggle to not lose a Pokemon to this threat.
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Okay, I already said this, but apparently people won't listen so I'm going to have to say it again : could we not discuss anything lower than B rank? Please? We're already not really supposed to be discussing anything lower than A- in the fist place. C ranks like P2 and Tentacruel aredefenitely off-limits (even though they admittedly need to move up like 2-3 ranks, but still, this isn't the time to discuss them)
Just wanna make a quick nomination
Celebi for A-
Celebi recently has had a surge in viability, mainly in part to the fact that it fares quite well against many new megas and its great versatility. There are two main sets I consider when using Celebi, Nasty Pass tran lure and Sp Defensive SR. With it's decent defensive typing and bulk, Celebi can switch in on many new and old threats, proceeding to ko many of them. Thanks to Natural Cure, crippling statuses such as para and toxic are cured on switchout, meaning Celebi can continuously come in to threaten mons. My personal favourite set is the Nastypass tran lure as many unsuspecting trans come in, expecting to tank a giga drain/physic only to be bopped next turn by earth power, thus paving the way for a mon like Talon or Clefable to clean up. It's also a great check to Azumarill as it can survive a knock off and heal up thanks to giga drain,. +2 Celebi is actually a lot more threatening than you might think, Ive swept many a team with the combination of Giga drain and Earth power. The defensive set is cool as well, sets SR and can tank many relevant hits. Though I dont have any replays of it in action and cant collect any bc showdowns dead I've found Celebi to be a really valuable member to a squad and is often MVP, B+ is a bit too low for something that provides so much team support in one slot.
Celebi for A-
Celebi recently has had a surge in viability, mainly in part to the fact that it fares quite well against many new megas and its great versatility. There are two main sets I consider when using Celebi, Nasty Pass tran lure and Sp Defensive SR. With it's decent defensive typing and bulk, Celebi can switch in on many new and old threats, proceeding to ko many of them. Thanks to Natural Cure, crippling statuses such as para and toxic are cured on switchout, meaning Celebi can continuously come in to threaten mons. My personal favourite set is the Nastypass tran lure as many unsuspecting trans come in, expecting to tank a giga drain/physic only to be bopped next turn by earth power, thus paving the way for a mon like Talon or Clefable to clean up. It's also a great check to Azumarill as it can survive a knock off and heal up thanks to giga drain,. +2 Celebi is actually a lot more threatening than you might think, Ive swept many a team with the combination of Giga drain and Earth power. The defensive set is cool as well, sets SR and can tank many relevant hits. Though I dont have any replays of it in action and cant collect any bc showdowns dead I've found Celebi to be a really valuable member to a squad and is often MVP, B+ is a bit too low for something that provides so much team support in one slot.
lmao calling something weak because it can't 2HKO P2 , and the best part is, it's not even true, because after 2 rounds of rocks, it would 2HKO. 252 SpA Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 142-168 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock I'd say that isn't bad considering P2 is bloody bulky (btw I don't know a spread this is just a guess).
This kind of power certainly isn't too weak for a cleaner, which is exactly what Mega Sceptile is.
asterat lmao wut.
First of all, literally all HO Pokemon (LIKE GRENINA) are hard to switch in to something without losing them, so I don't know HOW that goes toward your argument. You should be looking at what offensive Pokemon it can get in and Mega Evolve on after a free switch (it's an offensive Pokemon, what else), and this list is quite large. We're looking at non-scarf Keldeo, Latios with rocks up, offensive staples like these. SECOND of all, Mega Sceptile is NOT too weak to be a cleaner, as it still 2HKOes the majority of offensive Pokemon and can make good use of sub as well if it can force a switch. Mega Sceptile also actually might be weak to a lot of types, but a lot of the time due to it's speed it'd only ever come into contact with these when switching into an attack, which won't be happening a lot. You SHOULD be looking at it's Twave IMMUNITY making it one of the only cleaners to do this in a metagame where Thundurus is very dangerous yet again. Only trouble it really has to stop it being a really excellent cleaner in the current metagame is it's weakness to the ever-common Ice Shard or TFlame's BB, but if Mega Aero can be weak to one of those in A-, so can Mega Sceptile.
in all honesty I did say its an excellent cleaner against HO,and also I don't think 6 HP/252 Sp.Atk/252 Speed is an optimal spread for M-Scpetile :/. It generally runs enough attack to nail Heatran(92 Evs iirc) and that's the set I have experience with, EQ/HP:Fire/Dragon Pulse/Giga Drain is an excellent set to clean up late game or make holes in opponents team midgame with spoton predictions but there are a few things it just can't break and thus it will always be a liability against a bulkier team
I just think its time to make this change, so while tyranitar is one of my favorite megas to use, it's usefulness is just heavily limited these days.
Megatar was already mediocre late XY, and the switch to OR/AS haven't been beneficial for him either.
1. Let's start with the basics, it's stats are great, other than it's slightly lackluster speedstat, which is only just enough to go faster than the slowest of the fastest at plus one, such as greninja and noivern, however it still leaves tar outsped by mega aero, mega beedrill, mega zam and mega sceptile, who all have at least decent chances of revenge killing him, not to name the ever so scary excadrill.
2. Tar sits on a very dangerous typing in the current meta, being weak to a LOT of common attacking types (though he also resist a good amount) these being; water, ground, steel, fighting, bug and grass, leaving him in check by some of the scariest threats in the tier; keldeo, landorus-T, scizor (lacking fire punch), beedrill, greninja (before dancing), ferrothorn (same as scizor), slowbro (lacking crunch), sceptile, scarfrakion, mega zam, and the list goes on.
3. We also have it's coverage, while tyranitar have access to a flora of useful moves, but it cannot run all the moves it want to. between stone edge, crunch, earthquake, ice punch, fire punch and superpower it can only run 3 at a time. The most common is edgequake and ice punch.
4. Finally I want to just mention that tyranny also have a really rough time trying to wallbreak significantly, especially against stall.
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