Resource LC Viability Rankings

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Corporal Levi

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Pumpkaboo: B- -> B
Pancham: C -> B
Amaura: C+ -> B-
Skrelp: D -> C+

I know these mons were nominated for higher than where I'm placing them for now, and I am absolutely willing to move them up in due time, but for now, I would like to stay on the safe side until the metagame develops a bit further because it wouldn't be the first time we've hyped something far more than it deserves (although the hype surrounding these seems, for the most part, fairly warranted). Feel free to continue discussing for the time being.

Chinchou: A+ -> S
Staryu: B -> B+

The Staryu movement seems reasonable enough and I haven't seen anybody disagree with it. The Chinchou movement has been much more controversial, and there have been valid arguments both for and against its placement in S. For the most part, however, it looks like the majority of the community thinks it should be S, despite several noteworthy claims for A+; in addition, Rowan and I had a quick chat and we both agreed that it's S-rank material. If overall public support changes and it's decided to not be S-rank worthy, that's fine too and we can always move it back down.
 
I agree with most of the changes here, however, I do not agree with Chinchou being S-rank. While Chinchou is a great Pokemon for the ever popular VoltTurn team, and can run a variety of sets, I still don't think it warrants a S- rank compared to that of the other S-ranks.
Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.
I feel that this definition of the A rank fits perfectly with Chinchou and as such, should be placed back down into A+.
 
I think the move up for chinch is very well deserved. It's ability to be slapped on almost any team and more than carry its weight is just incredible, and is something that most pokemon (except mien) just don't have.
 
ok time to spark some more discussion.
I'm suggesting we drop Tirtouga down to A from A+.
Tirtouga is still an awesome mon in the current meta, don't get me long, all these drops I'm doing is just to help tie loose ends from the current raises. If you look at the current list of A/S rank mons, 12/25 cockblock its SS set, and the defensive set is a little better in this regard, but relies on scald burns a little to much, and wants aqua jet and knock off, or else it becomes prone to revenging or being a little less valuable utility wise. I'd write up more but I want some discussion and I'm to tired for a big post, + I don't want half of what I write picked apart for counter arguments.
 
Yeah, Tirtuga should go down from A+-->A.
Although Tirtouga is an amazing sweeper, and can function as a decent wall, in todays fighting type dominated tier (foo,cham, and burr.) its rock typing does not give it any favors, and for it to pull off a sturdy-berry juice set, there needs there to be no entry hazards, which means you have to pair it with a pokemo that can eliminate hazards (like drilbur or Archen) Which isn't bad for it, but all are chinchou weak, which is especially a problem because Chinchou is now an S rank mon, and might be used more commonly, it gives no sweeper any fun with thunder-wave or scald, and volt-turn can be a nasty combo to Tirtouga, because although it allows it to get up that shell smash, it allows the other side to send out a counter to Tirtouga, ending its sweep.
On one last hand, can I suggest that Fletchling drops down from S--->A+, because now fletchling has to deal with chou, and it had its time of glory, but now its counters have evolved and stamp it out of the LC minigame.
 
I've seen the debate for Fletchling a couple times now and figured i'd throw in my two cents. Just because the meta-game has evolved to counter Fletchling, (running a check is pretty much mandatory) shouldn't merit a drop in viability. If anything it should prove that Fletchling is such a defining sweeper in the meta-game that almost any team is required to have a check for it to be successful. Fletchling is no slouch, it can boost his attack with a quick Swords Dance and do significant damage with a no-item STAB boosted Acrobatics and can sweep teams without the, like i said, needed Fletchling check. While also being able to hold momentum with U-turn and even heal off Stealth Rock damage with Roost. S-tier in my opinion.
 
I've seen the debate for Fletchling a couple times now and figured i'd throw in my two cents. Just because the meta-game has evolved to counter Fletchling, (running a check is pretty much mandatory) shouldn't merit a drop in viability. If anything it should prove that Fletchling is such a defining sweeper in the meta-game that almost any team is required to have a check for it to be successful. Fletchling is no slouch, it can boost his attack with a quick Swords Dance and do significant damage with a no-item STAB boosted Acrobatics and can sweep teams without the, like i said, needed Fletchling check. While also being able to hold momentum with U-turn and even heal off Stealth Rock damage with Roost. S-tier in my opinion.
this isn't the "this was once bannable so it should always stay where it was thread" tiers change, they're not stagnant unless they die. Viability rankings depict the changes in the metagame by the rankings fluctuating. I don't see how anything you're saying is special enough to help it stay S, we all what know what it does, and that makes it all the more predicable. WOW it can sweep teams without checks, so amazing, I'd like to see it beat its counters/checks with "little to no support" as S rank says, all we want is it to drop to A+, nothing huge, it just isn't as dominant since the meta changed. The discussion has been over for a while (and more people want A+ rn since more talking about it has went on on PS). I don't see how you added anything not said, and you said it in a way that doesn't even make it look S rank material.
 

mad0ka

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is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Now why the fuck is Chinchou S rank though. I come on Smogon one morning to see that bullshit. What even makes it S rank? Like when even was this discussion. Oh, Chou can switch into Fletchling. OMG!!!! So impressive. Very S rank. In all of the S and A rank mons, minus Fletchling, opposing Chinchou, and sometimes Magnemite (analytic HP Ground slays it), Chinchou wants to switch in on NONE, literally NONE of them, or else it can be readily crippled. I will actually make a list, because user kingmidas tried arguing with me otherwise in chat when I discovered this obscenity.

Mienfoo: Um, certainly doesn't want to switch in on knock off. Even if it switches in on drain punch, Mienfoo will still win 1v1. Especially if it's carrying HJK.

Pawniard: Knock off galore. Combo of knock off + sucker will easily fuck over this sucker.

Abra: LOL. Abra easily 3HKOs Chinchou with evio and BJ, and Energy Ball Abra is high usage, so Chinchou is even more screwed over then.

Archen: Um. Archen packs a variety of moves that can severely dent Chou. Knock off, Rock Slide, and Earthquake can deal with this "S-Rank mon"

Drilbur: You'd be beyond stupid to think Chinchou can switch into Drilbur.

Ponyta: Chou is usually a rather safe switch-in to Ponyta, but Sunny Day sets are rather popular now, and no way Chou can beat Ponyta under the sun.

Timburr: Same thing as Mienfoo, and actually benefits from a stray scald burn.

Tirtouga: Bulky tirt takes jack shit from volt switch so it can still perform its role, and SS tirt can set up in Chou's face and earthquake it.

Croagunk: Also the same thing as Mienfoo and Timburr, but actually is healed from scald, so it has an even nicer match up.

Ferroseed: Performs its role af versus Chinchou-- sets up spikes for days.

Foongus: Do I need to elaborate on why Foongus slays Chinchou? No.

Porygon: Uh, Chinchou has to hope for scald burns versus Porygon who otherwise stalls Chinchou and eventually kills it with Tri Attack, which also has the potential to hax.

Spritzee: Same thing as Porygon, but doesn't absorb Volt Switch, so a bit worse in that regard.

Carvanha: Eh. Full health Chou will win, but it still doesn't really want to be switching into Crunch.

Cottonee: I'm lazy and don't want to explain why Cottonee obviously wins versus Chinchou.

Diglett: " " (except replace mentions of Cottonee with Diglett)

Gastly: LO Sludgebomb 2HKOs Chinchou

Gothita: Eh. Can come in and trap Chinchou with either Psychic or Energy Ball, depending.

Omanyte: +2 Earth Power says hello. Tanks a volt switch.

Snubbul: Tanks any of Chinchou's attacks, can steal its item with Thief, and then also proceed to use Earthquake.

Vullaby: Same thing as Pawniard, though to a much lesser extent. Also way too bulky for Chinchou to ever hope to slay.

Vulpix: Uhh. LO Energy Ball???????????????????????? Also scald only does ~ 50/60% at most.


Chou has no place switching into 99% of the A rank and above mons. However, things are hard pressed to switch into Chinchou because of a combination of the two most annoying moves ever: Volt Switch and Scald (thank u gen 4 and 5 respectively). For this reason, it is a really good pivot, but if it can't really switch into much of the commonplace meta, then how would that ever warrant Chinchou S rank? In all honesty, before this absurd movement of ranks took place, I was thinking in my head that Chinchou is placed too high in A+, let alone S. OK.
 

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not enough S rankers to really do that, and while you might not find that adequate enough of a reason, the defintion isn't really flexible enough to truly allow for dividing. I've been hearing this argument a lot lately and I'm tired of people thinking thats a solution instead of actually arguing until you reach a real ending. IMO we just keep arguing and not have the discussion die for like the third time.
Continuously arguing and not reaching a conclusion gets us nowhere, except to a higher post count. I don't see how compromising and just splitting the rank into three parts is a bad idea. There's a reason the discussion has repeatedly died: we're getting nowhere. So what if there are only four Pokemon in S-rank? One of them is the definition of the metagame, the other is the most brutal Pokemon to deal with, and the others are still quite potent, just not as much. There are three levels among those four Pokemon, so why not reflect that on the rankings.
 
Tbf we should only split it two ways. S+ should only be for foo, which is easily the best pivot in the game. It's clearly above the rest of S and there's no need to fuck up the rest of the rankings by pushing S mons to A+.
 
I don't really think we should split up S, it already says that those pokemon are the best in the metgame, so why make a low best, a medium best, and a high best, it makes no sense.
 
I don't think one can really argue that fletchling and Chinchou are on the same level as mienfoo or even pawniard.... Splitting the rank will do a much better job of depicting their actual viability.
 

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Tbf we should only split it two ways. S+ should only be for foo, which is easily the best pivot in the game. It's clearly above the rest of S and there's no need to fuck up the rest of the rankings by pushing S mons to A+.
I'm okay with splitting it into S and S+, but Pawniard warrants a place in S+. It may not be the fucking flawless Pokemon that is Mienfoo, but it's such a huge threat to pretty much everything at +2.
 
I don't see much of a problem splitting up S rank into S+ and S. Given that both Mienfoo and Chinchou are in S-rank, and although both are excellent pivots, Mienfoo clearly outshines Chinchou through sheer utility. Mienfoo's access to Knock Off, higher power and thus better cleaning ability with a scarf set, the ability to run a slow baton pass set for either subs or boosts, the potential to run a wall breaking set (idk how well it works nowadays though), not to mention Regenerator, clearly shows a difference between the two. Having both in the same rank would, to a newer player, make it seem like they are on a similar level, whereas dividing into S+ and S-rank would prevent this.

The argument that we don't have enough pokemon in s-rank to split them up is sort of irrelevant, if there's a big enough difference between the S-rank mons, then there probably should be a distinction. Not to mention, other communities have done it with similar numbers, iirc NU did a similar thing with 4 S-ranks last gen, and OU did it with Mega Salamence and four other S-ranks.
 
I don't really think we should split up S, it already says that those pokemon are the best in the metgame, so why make a low best, a medium best, and a high best, it makes no sense.
Because you're talking about subjective terms... Mienfoo is obviously the best in the tier due to it being able to fit on any team archetype, something not even Chinchou can boast (even though people make it seem otherwise). Personally, I don't like using Chinchou at all because when I do I find it underwhelming due to all the hype that comes wiht it, but this is an argument for another story.

TLDR: Split S-ranks and move Chinchou back to where it belongs kay thanks haha you're so kind.

S+
Mienfoo
Pawniard

S
Fletchling

A+
Chinchou
 
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Without trying to repeat what everyone has already said, i agree with a S+ rank for Mienfoo. However, I agree with Mambo that Pawniard should also join it. I'd still be in favor of Chinchou at A+ as well.
 
I don't think pawn should be at s+ with mienfoo... It just isn't the god of lc like mienfoo is. The main motivation of splitting s for me would be to place fletch and chinch there, as they are better than the A+ mons but not quite as good as pawniard.
 
Yeah, while Foo is the current "God" of the LC metagame, its just that although pawn gets the most powerful knock off and sucker punch+rocks, it isn't as good as a mon overall as mienfoo is.
Plus foo has regenerator, drain punch, U-Turn, and can easily decimate a pawniard due to it's 4x weakness to fighting type attacks.
 

Anthiese

formerly Jac
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Yeah, while Foo is the current "God" of the LC metagame, its just that although pawn gets the most powerful knock off and sucker punch+rocks, it isn't as good as a mon overall as mienfoo is.
Plus foo has regenerator, drain punch, U-Turn, and can easily decimate a pawniard due to it's 4x weakness to fighting type attacks.
Pawn deters one style of play (Sticky Web) and deters one way of hazard removal (Defog)

It has one of the most powerful Knock Offs in the meta

It's resists are godlike

+2 Pawn is a monster

Yes it has a lot of checks usually in the form of HP Fight / Drain Punch but literally it's positives outshine it's negatives.
 
Pawn deters one style of play (Sticky Web) and deters one way of hazard removal (Defog)

It has one of the most powerful Knock Offs in the meta

It's resists are godlike

+2 Pawn is a monster

Yes it has a lot of checks usually in the form of HP Fight / Drain Punch but literally it's positives outshine it's negatives.
Even though it has godlike resists, and is a +2 monster, it doesn't do well in the likes of Foo, who can do massive damage with Drain punch.
0 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 36-48 (163.6 - 218.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
While pawn has trouble touching it, even with +2
+2 236 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 236 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-11 (42.8 - 52.3%) -- 26.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Although Pawn is God#2, God#1, foo, can still do massive damage, and resist some of its best attacks as well.
 
Even though it has godlike resists, and is a +2 monster, it doesn't do well in the likes of Foo, who can do massive damage with Drain punch.
0 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 36-48 (163.6 - 218.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
While pawn has trouble touching it, even with +2
+2 236 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 236 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-11 (42.8 - 52.3%) -- 26.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Although Pawn is God#2, God#1, foo, can still do massive damage, and resist some of its best attacks as well.
Yes, Mienfoo beats Pawniard. We know that. Pawniard's strong suits still outshine even that negative.
 

Anthiese

formerly Jac
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
S Rank isnt about: Can i beat other S Rankers

S Rank is about: How good am i in the meta (aka how much do i fuck it up)
 
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