Metagame NP: RU Stage 5: Gods and Monsters (HOUNDOOMINITE IS BL2, READ POST #178)

[EonX]

Alright, I guess I'll go over the tier changes and what I think about them:

Mega Altaria: Good riddance. This thing was cancerous and literally could bone half the tier with its DD set alone. I don't think anyone is going to be missing this massive threat.
Mega Beedrill: I am honestly glad this thing is gone. I know it didn't get a lot of attention, but I feel this was only because it was overshadowed by Mega Lopunny and Mega Gallade. If those two were quickbanned, I was expecting this thing to become absolute hell for offense to face (and even for Stall thanks to Adaptability STABs)
Houndoom: So glad we finally got this thing. Everything has really been said on this already.
As for the predicted losses, we didn't lose any. Sadly, we also didn't get Diancie, but that was kinda predictable. So what stands to gain from these changes?

Pidgeot: This thing was kind of underrated, but with Mega Beedrill gone and the possible quickban of Mega Lopunny looming, Mega Pidgeot is primed to be the top offensive Mega in the tier. Base 135 Special Attack is nothing to scoff at with a 110 BP STAB move that never misses and base 121 Speed means that only Mega Sceptile and Jolteon can naturally outspeed Mega Pidgeot. Gligar staying in the tier only gives Mega Pidgeot one more Pokemon to get a free switch-in from. It's still held back by the likes of Jolteon, Rhyperior (has a hard time carrying HP Grass) Eelektross, most Scarf users, and the lesser-seen Regirock, but it can be quite the handful to deal with.
Dragalge: One less Pokemon to take Dracos and one less Pokemon that outspeeds it. It has next to 0 switch-ins and is an absolutely amazing wallbreaker in the tier. With the imminent rise of Mega Pidgeot, a fast special attacker, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see Dragalge rise as the premier wallbreaker for it.
Pangoro: Pretty much the same as Dragalge since Mega Altaria kinda boned it and Mega Beedrill didn't even need to be Mega Evolved prior to coming in for a revenge kill on Pangoro. Like Dragalge, Pangoro has very limited switch-ins and has an easy time pressuring defensive teams with its powerful Knock Offs. The difference is that Dragalge has more switch-in opportunities thanks to its defensive typing.
Meloetta: Specs Meloetta just got a ton better. Mega Beedrill was an absolute thorn in its side and really led to the Scarf set being better just due to the fact that it could actually keep from giving Mega Beedrill a free U-turn. With the likely rise of Mega Pidgeot, it would stand to reason that VoltTurn could rise in popularity as Mega Pidgeot works wonderfully in such teams. As it happens, Meloetta can get U-turn and use Choice Specs to weaken special walls for Mega Pidgeot. What's even better is that Mega Pidgeot fares very well against Spiritomb and Escavalier, the two best responses to Specs Meloetta in the tier. This will really limit the switch-ins the opponent has.

There's probably some others, but those are just some off the top of my head.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Just going to voice Eon's mention on the Dragalge+Emperir Bird core, that's actually the core I've been using on a volt turn team the few times I did play. Works wonderfully, as Drag gets a switchin into Joleton which obviously threatens Emperor Bird and allows it to bomb something. It works even better if you have something like Sandslash in the back as it helps Bird with spinning whilst also making Voltswitchers vary of doing that. Or Gligar too I suppose. Eh you get the idea.

 

[Mistress Remilia]

These 2 guys would like to talk about RU Sun, featuring Solar Power M-Doom, our new drop.

 

[Shyfire]

yeah with the drop of houndoom i think sun teams will be poping up a bit more. (savior doge about to rekt)

 

[Yellow Cheese]

Since doge is here I might actually play some RU for once. I quite liked the mixed set from last gen and Doge+Mega-Pidgeot looks like a decent offensive core. Also Tyrantrium is not shit anymore, which is nice (no Rock head head smash still is crie)

 

[EonX]

How in the fuck did bird Jesus get enough usage to be RU, EonX did you spam it to hell and back? Damn I was looking forward to using it in NU after the speed tiers dropped a peg, at least nasty pass to it will still be fun here.

Savior doge has finally dropped, does that include the mega stone? Even if no its still gonna be a lot of fun to play around with.

Didn't see this earlier, but I don't think I'm responsible for 6.8% usage. Maybe 1/3 - 1/2 of that?

Anyway, while Mistress Remilia brought up Sun with Mega Houndoom, I played some matches with it on Spikes offense and it is incredibly good. Very solid Speed tier and its STAB moves alone take out most defensive cores, meaning it has a 4th moveslot that's just sitting there. With this said, I've been using it with Flame Charge in that last slot and it just allows Mega Houndoom to take a dump on opposing offensive teams. You won't always find time to use it, but man it feels amazing when you do find the time. Get rid of Mach Punch users (basically Hitmonlee and Gurdurr) and it's absolutely golden.

Houndoom (M) @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flame Charge
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse

Anyone who played UU back before the June drops is probably familiar with this set as it was a set that Limitless originally started using. I had this set ready to go back in September, but we got denied Houndoom then. Now that it's here, this set is amazing on Spikes offense. Use Nasty Plot vs. stall teams and reveal the Flame Charge vs. fast teams. You can use HP Grass over Flame Charge to totally destroy Stall, but I like having the ability to deal with fast teams more easily.

 

[Lemonade]

Been playing around with AV Power-Up Punch Kecleon and it's actually not as bad as it sounds (though I can't really see it used seriously). Basically Special Attacks do 0 so you PuP on them and smack things hard with Knock Off or heal back HP with Drain Punch.

stop theif (Kecleon) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protean
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Power-Up Punch
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch / Shadow Sneak

84 Speed creeps base 50s though it might only need to be faster than like Dragalge, though that runs Speed too so eh. The last slot is necessary for some priority, Sucker is more all-purpose but you get into classic Sucker Punch mindgames. Shadow Sneak, however, is amazing at dealing with Gallade, especially if it comes in while you are a Fighting-type since it very unlikely will go for Knock Off.

252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 116-140 (41.7 - 50.3%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO

^that is Mega Gallade btw. So if it switches in on PuP you actually win unless they are super ballsy. It's not too useful otherwise though since you can't hit Meloetta anymore and the Ghost-typing means Doublade gets solid damage with Sneak.

Basically with AV you can pretty safely switch into a lot of special attackers like the new Houndoom, Moltres, Pidgeot, Sceptile, Psychic Melo, Cress etc. (though with the middle three you don't do much so it's better just to 1v1 them). You can also beat stuff like Exploud and Clawitzer 1v1 in a pinch.

Alomomola is a pain as always, and Fairies too since you turn Fairy weak. Overall Kec's defenses are low and particularly Fighting-types you'll generally want to switch out against, though there are more Shadow Sneak shenanigans with that.

Lastly AV is alright without PuP too, with stuff like Knock Off + Ice Punch for Gligar or Iron Tail for Aromatisse. Not having LO means missing out on the clean OHKO on Slowking, but Rocks are not too difficult. Haven't tried Recover + 3 Attacks with some other item yet. Overall fun mon, but once again I wouldn't really use it too seriously.

 

[phantom]

I was kinda getting bored running offense and balanced, and I'm probably not the only one wondering how stall would work with the addition of all of these new wallbreakers and ferocious Megas, and up until a while ago I didn't think it was worth trying because it seemed like stall wasn't going to be viable for a while, but I did come up with an initial stall build that can function decently in this meta and I think it covers all but one threat pretty well. Introducing, Mega Gallade stall:

This is a stall team I built centered around SubBulkUp Mega Gallade, which 6-0s more teams than I can count and is hilariously broken in general. I think there are three Pokemon that are basically required on stall atm, and that's Alomomola, Bronzong, and Granbull. Alomomola because you do need a Wish passer to support the other two, and of the current viable three, Alomomola works best because it checks Mega Camerupt, Mega Glalie, Moltres, and many more. Bronzong I think is also needed because of Choice Specs Dragalge and Mega Sceptile, both of which are rather difficult to beat otherwise. I think in this meta the physical bulk on Granbull is very important to take on Mega Sharpedo, Mega Lopunny, and opposing Mega Gallade. Thunder Wave is what's really important because you need to guarantee that Mega Gallade gets at least crippled. So in the last two slots I added Drapion because it can provide Toxic Spikes support for Mega Gallade and check Psychic-types, whereas Gligar provides the much-needed Defog support. This Gligar is different than others for a couple of reasons though. One, it's Specially Defensive, which I think is necessary so that I can have a secondary check to Mega Camerupt and an okayish check to Mega Houndoom, it also packs Taunt which is primarily used to force Bulk Up Braviary to attack, thus allowing Gligar to PP stall its Brave Bird. I'd also like to add that Mega Gallade is what really makes this stall work because it provides a secondary check to just about every wallbreaker due its offenses and bulk and best of all, it provides a great win condition against opposing stall. Aside from Life Orb Moltes, which if hit by Alomomola's Toxic or a Knock Off can be played around, I think just about everything is accounted for.

Import

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Toxic

Alomomola (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 120 HP / 136 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Scald
- Toxic

Gligar (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 248 HP / 216 SpD / 44 Spe
Careful Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Taunt

Granbull (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Earthquake
- Thunder Wave
- Heal Bell

Drapion (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 220 SpD / 40 Spe
Careful Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Whirlwind

Gallade (M) @ Galladite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off

So after using this team for a while, I think stall is very viable, but you have to play A LOT more carefully than you did in XY, just because of the sheer inordinate amount of wallbreakers, both Mega and not making team building a bit more difficult, which I think is a good thing because autopilot stall is the worst.

 

[The Big Aristotle]

Houndoom (M) @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flame Charge
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse

I've had a lot of success with this set running Sucker Punch (with an Atk-neutral nature) over Flame Charge. It's a great option if you want Houndoom to be more of a revenge killer/wallbreaker instead of a sweeper -- I use it to lead in to CS Moltres sweeps, and it's worked wonderfully so far.

 

[SketchUp]

I'm glad Savior Dog is finally in RU and regular Houndoom is a very cool pokemon for the metagame. Houndoomite on the other side, is just stupid.
IIRC the council votes will start today (don't quote me on that) and I would be relieved if Lopunnite and Galladite could just go to UU and never come back. Both are obviously not healthy for the metagame (just look at Fletchinder's usage stats and compare them to XY)
What are your current thoughts about Sceptilite and Houndoomite? Both seem very good in my opinion and I can't see them stay in RU for long

 

[Holiday]

So now that based Doom is running around everywhere, I found the savior from savior doge.

252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Hariyama: 69-82 (16 - 19.1%) -- possible 6HKO

It's pretty cool, only takes around 36% in the sun. Hariyama can obviously do a shit ton in return. It's been really helpful for me, and I really enjoy it on my team.

 

[Molk]

I'm glad Savior Dog is finally in RU and regular Houndoom is a very cool pokemon for the metagame. Houndoomite on the other side, is just stupid.
IIRC the council votes will start today (don't quote me on that) and I would be relieved if Lopunnite and Galladite could just go to UU and never come back. Both are obviously not healthy for the metagame (just look at Fletchinder's usage stats and compare them to XY)
What are your current thoughts about Sceptilite and Houndoomite? Both seem very good in my opinion and I can't see them stay in RU for long

Yeah, we're voting on Galladite and Lopunnite today :]. After all the council members have voted/we reach a supermajority either way we're going to write a group paragraph about both explaining why we decided one way or the other.

 

[Molk]

Alrighty, double posting because i have too :]

The votes are all in, and here are the results!

Galladite is now BL2, voted there completely unanimously in a 9-0 vote. Please do note that regular Gallade is still perfectly legal to use in RU

Meanwhile, the Lopunnite vote was close, very close, but with an end result or 4-4-1 (or essentially 4-5 if you count abstaining towards dnb), Lopunnite is going to just barely remain legal in RU for the time being (for the record, atomicllamas and i confirmed with some members of senior staff that 4-4-1 keeps the Pokemon in the tier since it was such a close vote). If Mega Lopunny ends up being a major problem in the future, it'll be revisited as a traditional suspect at a later date.

Here's the reasoning that was typed up for both suspects, written mainly by atomicllamas and EonX and looked over by me and the rest of the council :).

Galladite

Mega Gallade is a major threat, no doubt about it. It wields a base 165 Attack stat, which is unheard of for RU standards, while also having a base 110 Speed stat that outpaces all but the fastest of Pokemon in RU. Offensive teams are forced to run the likes of Mega Pidgeot, Jolteon, Dugtrio, and various Choice Scarf users (Meloetta, Rotom-C, etc.) to keep from being taken apart by Mega Gallade's powerful coverage in Close Combat, Knock Off, and Zen Headbutt. Because Mega Gallade already has its bases covered in 3 moves, it is able to run Swords Dance, thus allowing it to ravage more defensive teams that rely on defensive switches to take care of powerful Pokemon like Mega Gallade. As if this versatility in a single set wasn't enough, it gets a Defense buff through Mega Evolution that allows it to take most neutral physical attacks if they aren't boosted, stomach *most* priority (looking at you, Fletchinder) quite easily, and retaliate with a powerful attack of its own. The boosted Defense also lets Mega Gallade set up on many more threats than it would be able to without Mega Evolution, and the switches it forces due to its coverage only amplifies this fact. Between its ability to perform well against offensive and defensive teams alike with just a single set, and the heightened ability to withstand revenge killing attempts, the RU Council has decided to enact a quickban on the Galladite, thus removing Mega Gallade from RU.

People who voted ban on Galladite: literally the entire council unless i read wrong

Lopunnite

With a base 136 Attack and base 135 Speed stat, it's no wonder why Mega Lopunny was quickly put up on the chopping block. When you combine this with a newfound Fighting-typing and Scrappy to hit Ghost-types, Mega Lopunny becomes very difficult to switch into. What's more is that Mega Lopunny really only needs to have Frustration / Return and High Jump Kick to deal damage to most opposing Pokemon. This gives it two moveslots to either further enhance its sweeping capabilities, give it the ability to Mega Evolve against more Pokemon, or support its team. Surely a Pokemon with this much power, speed, and versatility would be ban-worthy, right? While all of these qualities make Mega Lopunny a fantastic Pokemon, it does have some drawbacks. First and foremost, it has a very difficult time overcoming bulky Psychic-types. Reuniclus, Cresselia, and physically defensive Slowking can easily take hits from Mega Lopunny. Without Ice Punch, Mega Lopunny struggles to get past Gligar. Poison-types like Weezing and Golbatare also a thorn in Mega Lopunny's side thanks to their great physical bulk and Weezing even has access to Will-O-Wisp to cripple Mega Lopunny. Amoonguss is also a decent check that fits on a larger variety of teams and can cripple Mega Lopunny with Spore. Aromatisse is also a good response to mega Lopunny that is easy to fit on defensive / balance teams. While Mega Lopunny is very strong against offensive teams, it can struggle with certain Pokemon on these teams. Mega Sceptile and various Choice Scarf users, such as Moltres and Meloetta, can outspeed Mega Lopunny and dispose of it with their powerful STAB moves. Priority users such as Hitmonlee, Fletchinder, and Gurdurr also make life difficult for Mega Lopunny. While answers to Mega Lopunny aren't super plentiful, the RU Council believes that there are enough to choose from on all team archetypes to let it remain RU for the time being. It is also important to keep in mind that a Pokemon is only quick banworthy if it is 100% broken beyond any reasonable doubts, which is slightly different than the criteria for banning a Pokemon by the normal suspect process. While on paper Mega Lopunny certainly sounds overwhelming, in practice it didn't seem nearly as game breaking.

People who voted ban on Lopunnite: HotNCold, Omfuga, New Breed, -Tsunami-

People who voted do not ban on Lopunnite: atomicllamas, SilentVerse, EonX, Afro Smash

People who abstained: Molk

The Immortal

 

[phantom]

First of all, let me say that the decision to not ban Mega Lopunny is probably the worst RU tiering decision made so far this gen. Second, the reasoning to not ban it seems incredibly flawed. Not only is not being able to break through bulky Psychic-types and the most physically bulky Pokemon in the tier literally not the point as to why Lopunny is suspect worthy, (which fyi it has two free moves to beat those Pokemon on its own or exploit them via SubPass anyway) but it shows a complete lack of understanding as to why Mega Lopunny is a problem in the first place, which, no offense, really makes me call into question the credibility of all of those who decided to vote no ban.

Mentioning niche defensive Pokemon such as Weezing and physically defensive Slowking (which literally no one uses because of the presence of Moltres and now Mega Camerupt) further solidifies the above point. The problem with Mega Lopunny is not that it destroys defensive teams, the problem is that it has such a ridiculous advantage over offense in that it either forces offense to resort to shitty defensive checks, thereby turning any offensive team into a balanced or puts offense in a checkmate position where they have to sack something in order to revenge kill it. How is that not at least ban worthy?

Now, of the Pokemon that can revenge kill it, only two exist, and that's Fletchinder, which cannot switch in and Choice Scarf Moltres, which has to rely on a 70% accuracy move to take out Lopunny. Contrary to what was stated in the above paragraph, Mega Sceptile is not a very good revenge killer because A) it has to Mega Evolve first in order to do so which makes it slower than Mega Lopunny the first turn and B) it must use Leaf Storm in order to have a chance to OHKO or use the very reliable Focus Blast. As for the other Choice Scarf user, Choice Scarf Meloetta is quite frankly horrible and a niche set that I've never seen a single good player use in higher level RU play, and a set that's been nonexistent since the inception of this tier, so I don't know why that was brought up as a way to deal with Mega Lopunny. If anything, the fact that a shitty set such as Choice Scarf Meloetta of all things was brought up as a reason to not ban it really says something here.

With SPL coming up, this tiering decision was especially important. I feel that not banning Mega Lopunny really screws over RU because we have one less month to better get acquainted with the tier due to having to prepare for such an unhealthy threat and one less month to get a feel for how offense works because of Mega Lopunny's detrimental impact towards its development. If there is a second round of quick bans, which I assume will involve Mega Houndoom, please re vote on Mega Lopunny; RU doesn't deserve to be fucked over like this.

And for those of you who voted no ban that are so adamant that Mega Lopunny is not broken, can you please explain how offense can deal with it outside of revenge killing and resorting to niche defensive checks? And of the Pokemon that can revenge kill it, can one of you name at least 5 good ones outside of Choice Scarf Moltres and Fletchinder. Because it seems by not voting ban, you guys have the answers for these kinda questions and I don't, so I'd love it if you all illuminated me here. Note: this doesn't imply that just because you can revenge kill something that it isn't broken, this is merely to demonstrate just how broken Mega Lopunny is due to the sheer absence of Pokemon that can do even that.

 

[Meru]

I'm going to go ahead and agree with Spirit, as I'm a little perplexed to by the reasoning. I know UU is different from RU, but Lopunnite is already a monster up here, even with the other more OP Fairies in the mix.

The raw power of its STAB HJK makes it incredibly hard for anything to handle except bulky Psychic-, Poison- and Fairy-types, all of which still have to deal with a STAB Return to their face (If any tier knows the power of STAB Normal-type moves, its this one). I'd include Flying-types in that list too, but a lot of them are even worse at handling STAB Return when you factor in SR. On top of that, Lopunny can stand blatantly in the face of many of its bulky offensive checks and weaken them with STAB Fake Out, letting it bypass a noticable amount of bulk on offensive mons like Meloetta, that it can't OHKO, while also easily nabbing that free MEvo, making that argument a moot point. STAB Fake Out can even take out weakened Scarfers, especially Moltres after SR. UU is lucky in that we have the SR-resilient/Normal-resistant Jirachi as our best Scarfer to alleviate that issue, although even still some people are arguing that Lopunnite is broken in UU.

It explicitly requires teams to shift to a much more defensive approach, as many offensive mons flat out lose to it 1-on-1, and many of them completely fall apart as checks as early as Turn 2. When you consider the enormous benefit to teambuilding that comes with forcing in purely defensive checks, I feel like it becomes a little bit more obvious as to why Mega-Lopunny can be considered so devastating to the tier.

 

[MrCookiepants]

"Without Ice Punch, Mega Lopunny struggles to get past Gligar."

This bit annoys me. You even stated that it only requires STAB to perform its primary role (destroying offense). Nothing is stopping it from running Ice Punch to get past Gligar. Was Toxic even considered? What is a Toxic'd Cresselia going to do to an opposing team? Sceptile needs to be mega evolved first or Lopunny wins. And Weezing just lets Dragalge/Meloetta come in for free. Have fun switching into those guys.

Adamant Return has a chance to 2HKO max defense Aromatisse and Slowking after rocks...

252+ Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowking: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 168-198 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Very strange decision.

 

[Holiday]

If anyone knows me, or has heard me speak in the RU chat before, you will probably know I was set on keeping Lopunnite in the tier because it gives us a new pokemon that can really wreck offense, a driving team style in the meta game. I hate to say it, but I think I'm wrong. Sure, the standard set (STABs/Fake Out/Ice Punch) might have trouble getting passed Weezing and Slowking; however, the glorious thing about Mega Lopunny is that the only moves it can assured have are the two STAB moves it runs. The set I have been running forgoes Fake Out and Ice Punch for Substitute and Power-up Punch. We ALLLLL know Mega Lopuny can force switches, and behind a sub, nabbing PuP boosts, it doesn't need coverage. No longer does it struggle to get past Gligar, as +2 Return/Frustration is gonna deny it anyways, and Gligar isn't doing anything back if it's not running EQ. You can also tailor you EV spread if you want to take one Sludge Bomb from behind a sub, allowing you to wreak havoc on a Weezing with +1 or +2 Love/Hate Tackles. Sheer power and dismantling teams are rather standard reasons to ban, but Mega Lopunny doesn't just do that. I think the real point, that some mention, but don't focus on, is flawless coverage in two moves. Look at Mega Mawile. It had about 2-3 concrete counters, all demolished by its new SubPunch set. Genesect could run just about any moves a team needed with a Scarf and just eliminate threats so easily. This is what Mega Lopunny truly shines at: versatility. Mega Lopunny will continue to adapt until we have to ban it, and trust me. I know second time around, it's gone.

 

[atomicllamas]

With SPL coming up, this tiering decision was especially important. I feel that not banning Mega Lopunny really screws over RU because we have one less month to better get acquainted with the tier due to having to prepare for such an unhealthy threat and one less month to get a feel for how offense works because of Mega Lopunny's detrimental impact towards its development. If there is a second round of quick bans, which I assume will involve Mega Houndoom, please re vote on Mega Lopunny; RU doesn't deserve to be fucked over like this.

Just gonna throw this out there, but if you want to practice for SPL you can still do that by challenging someone to a match and agreeing not to use Mega Lopunny, if your plan was to prepare for SPL by laddering, well you didn't have a good plan.

If we are going to start banning things just because we want to get better acquainted with the meta game that will be present for SPL, we should ban Gligar and Mega Sceptile as well as there is an extremely small chance of those Pokemon being in RU for SPL, but that is terrible logic.

And for those of you who voted no ban that are so adamant that Mega Lopunny is not broken, can you please explain how offense can deal with it outside of revenge killing and resorting to niche defensive checks? And of the Pokemon that can revenge kill it, can one of you name at least 5 good ones outside of Choice Scarf Moltres and Fletchinder. Because it seems by not voting ban, you guys have the answers for these kinda questions and I don't, so I'd love it if you all illuminated me here. Note: this doesn't imply that just because you can revenge kill something that it isn't broken, this is merely to demonstrate just how broken Mega Lopunny is due to the sheer absence of Pokemon that can do even that.

Are these the only Pokemon that can revenge Mega Lopunny at full health? I guess my question is what offensive team is just letting Mega Lopunny switch in for free? Timid Mega Sceptile is faster than Adamant Mega Lopunny pre Mega Evolution which is the nature that everyone suggests is better, and while it "has to" run Leaf Storm to revenge kill it without relying on Focus Blast (ironic you are posting about Focus Blast accuracy when you scoff at people for mentioning Hurricane accuracy in discussing Moltres bans but w/e), Leaf Storm is literally the best move on Mega Sceptile (it "has to" run Leaf Storm in the same way Moltres "has to" run Fireblast). Mach Punch from Hitmonlee does 70%+ which is pretty good considering the fact that Mega Lopunny isn't switching into anything without taking at least 30% damage. Gurdurr can take anyone attack + KO back with Drain Punch, Mach Punch does around 50%. OTR Cofagrigus can switch in, remove Scrappy and threaten to sweep in return (I realize this isn't standard, but it seems like a pretty cool mon rn). Offensive teams often run Pokemon like Qwilfish that can switch into Mega Lopunny and cripple it with Thunder Wave, as offensive teams often carry Pokemon in the support role. It takes 271 speed to outspeed Jolly Mega Lopunny with a scarf and 247 speed for Adamant, (base 80s outspeed Mega Lopunny with a scarf), their are quite a few viable Choice Scarf Pokemon above base 80 capable of OHKOing or heavily damaging mega Lopunny.

First of all, let me say that the decision to not ban Mega Lopunny is probably the worst RU tiering decision made so far this gen. Second, the reasoning to not ban it seems incredibly flawed. Not only is not being able to break through bulky Psychic-types and the most physically bulky Pokemon in the tier literally not the point as to why Lopunny is suspect worthy, (which fyi it has two free moves to beat those Pokemon on its own or exploit them via SubPass anyway) but it shows a complete lack of understanding as to why Mega Lopunny is a problem in the first place, which, no offense, really makes me doubt the credibility of all of those who decided to vote no ban.

The reasoning wasn't written exclusively for you, the council is more than aware of why Mega Lopunny was put up for suspect, however me and EonX wrote this reasoning for literally everyone who is curious about this decision (its on the smogon twitter and facebook account), and the fact that Mega Lopunny is okay at best against defensively oriented teams is a factor in the decision. The part that applies to you, and perhaps the part I didn't emphasize enough in writing my reasoning for voting DNB is the following:

"It is also important to keep in mind that a Pokemon is only quick banworthy if it is 100% broken beyond any reasonable doubts, which is slightly different than the criteria for banning a Pokemon by the normal suspect process. While on paper Mega Lopunny certainly sounds overwhelming, in practice it didn't seem nearly as game breaking."

This has always been Smogon's stance on quickbans and it is my stance as well, I am not willing to ban something that is potentially not broken without input from the community (Meru this may explain your concerns, also I know you just mentioned it in passing but idgaf about lopunnite in UU that's not my concern). While it may be convenient to ban Mega Lopunny now as it is leaving at the end of the month, I'm not willing to quick ban a Pokemon I think has ~ a 75% chance to be broken. I 100% stand by my statement that Lopunny is far better on paper than in practice because I never saw Lopunny do /that/ much when facing it, and when using it myself it was good, but not so fucking good it was unquestionably broken.

Mentioning niche defensive Pokemon such as Weezing and physically defensive Slowking (which literally no one uses because of the presence of Moltres and now Mega Camerupt) further solidifies the above point. The problem with Mega Lopunny is not that it destroys defensive teams, the problem is that it has such a ridiculous advantage over offense in that it either forces offense to resort to shitty defensive checks, thereby turning any offensive team into a balanced or puts offense in a checkmate position where they have to sack something in order to revenge kill it. How is that not at least ban worthy?

You and Hot N Cold throw around the word niche a lot but you use it in a manner that gives it such a negative connotation when that is not the case. Weezing is a niche Pokemon, its niche is a Physically-defensive Poison-type that can burn physical attackers, set t-spikes, and deal with much of the meta game. Having a niche is a good thing. This doesn't really apply to the Mega Lopunny suspect because you were talking about offense lacking good responses to it, but I am so sick of people misusing terminology in suspect discussions to further their point.

In summary, no me / EonX / Afro Smash / SilentVerse are not incompetent, we simply have a different tiering philosophy than you when it comes to quickbans (the traditional one to be exact). You think Mega Lopunny is broken and I can totally respect that, it probably is, but probably broken does not mean quick ban worthy, it means suspect worthy, and I'm not willing to compromise my beliefs on tiering because it is convenient timing.

 

[phantom]

Just gonna throw this out there, but if you want to practice for SPL you can still do that by challenging someone to a match and agreeing not to use Mega Lopunny, if your plan was to prepare for SPL by laddering, well you didn't have a good plan.

If we are going to start banning things just because we want to get better acquainted with the meta game that will be present for SPL, we should ban Gligar and Mega Sceptile as well as there is an extremely small chance of those Pokemon being in RU for SPL, but that is terrible logic.

That's not the point, that point is that you have an obviously broken Pokemon in RU when it doesn't need to be. Idk why you're bringing up anything about banning Gligar because usage stats are as unpredictable as they get, especially with ORAS out.

Are these the only Pokemon that can revenge Mega Lopunny at full health? I guess my question is what offensive team is just letting Mega Lopunny switch in for free?

How is it going to have any difficulty switching in at all? Like all it has to do is come out turn one. If the Pokemon is faster pre mega, it clicks Fake Out and Megas no problem while nabbing some chip damage to put it into KO range. You're missing the point again. Switching in shouldn't be the issue or even relevant to be argued about (not like it's impossible for it to switch-in anyway), otherwise Deo-A wouldn't be banned in higher tiers, this issue is that how does offense not lose something every time it comes in? Answer that.

Timid Mega Sceptile is faster than Adamant Mega Lopunny pre Mega Evolution which is the nature that everyone suggests is better, and while it "has to" run Leaf Storm to revenge kill it without relying on Focus Blast (ironic you are posting about Focus Blast accuracy when you scoff at people for mentioning Hurricane accuracy in discussing Moltres bans but w/e), Leaf Storm is literally the best move on Mega Sceptile (it "has to" run Leaf Storm in the same way Moltres "has to" run Fireblast).

Incorrect. Sub/Focus Blast / Dragon Pulse / Giga Drain is perfectly viable as are Swords Dance sets, it certainly doesn't need to run Leaf Storm on every set, but it does if it wants to revenge-kill Lopunny.

Mach Punch from Hitmonlee does 70%+ which is pretty good considering the fact that Mega Lopunny isn't switching into anything without taking at least 30% damage.

Hitmonlee isn't switching in and since it can't even KO with Mach Punch that makes it a pretty shitty check. You can't just assume it's going to have 30% prior damage out of nowhere. Mega Lopunny doesn't even need to take a hit, it just one-shots most offensive Pokemon with minimal hazard support.

Gurdurr can take anyone attack + KO back with Drain Punch, Mach Punch does around 50%.

252+ Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 184-217 (49.3 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO

???

No it can't. Gurdurr can't even switch in and does a max of 57% with Mach Punch. It's a revenge killer at best.

OTR Cofagrigus can switch in, remove Scrappy and threaten to sweep in return (I realize this isn't standard, but it seems like a pretty cool mon rn).

I'm sorry, but when was that last time that Pokemon was even relevant, and how many teams is that going to sweep when Pokemon like Spiritomb and Meloetta exist? It's not like it switches in for free either, it's a clean 2HKO by HJK.

Offensive teams often run Pokemon like Qwilfish that can switch into Mega Lopunny and cripple it with Thunder Wave

Offensive teams don't run Thunder Wave Qwilfish, offensive teams run hazard stacking Qwilfish which is a suicide lead and never runs the move. If you want to know the set, it's: Explosion / Taunt / Spikes / Toxic Spikes. Bear in mind that Qwilfish on offensive teams isn't even that good of a switch-in should you choose to preserve it:

-1 252+ Atk Lopunny Return vs. 0 HP / 0+ Def Qwilfish: 145-172 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

It takes 271 speed to outspeed Jolly Mega Lopunny with a scarf and 247 speed for Adamant, (base 80s outspeed Mega Lopunny with a scarf), their are quite a few viable Choice Scarf Pokemon above base 80 capable of OHKOing or heavily damaging mega Lopunny.

Mind telling me how many viable Choice Scarf users that are good fit into this category, and of them, which of them can KO?

The reasoning wasn't written exclusively for you, the council is more than aware of why Mega Lopunny was put up for suspect, however me and EonX wrote this reasoning for literally everyone who is curious about this decision (its on the smogon twitter and facebook account), and the fact that Mega Lopunny is okay at best against defensively oriented teams is a factor in the decision.

I don't care if it was or it wasn't don't make it personal. o_o The reasoning that was provided shows subpar meta knowledge and misses the point, that's the problem.

While it may be convenient to ban Mega Lopunny now as it is leaving at the end of the month, I'm not willing to quick ban a Pokemon I think has ~ a 75% chance to be broken. I 100% stand by my statement that Lopunny is far better on paper than in practice because I never saw Lopunny do /that/ much when facing it, and when using it myself it was good, but not so fucking good it was unquestionably broken.

The community is literally right here and no one aside from the people on the council who voted no ban said it wasn't broken so I don't see your point here.

You and Hot N Cold throw around the word niche a lot but you use it in a manner that gives it such a negative connotation when that is not the case.

It kinda is because it constrains your teambuilding when you're forced to use Pokemon that have a select few rolls and do little else aside from that, or are strictly inferior aside from their proposed niche.

Weezing is a niche Pokemon, its niche is a Physically-defensive Poison-type that can burn physical attackers, set t-spikes, and deal with much of the meta game. Having a niche is a good thing.

I think you missed the point again.

This doesn't really apply to the Mega Lopunny suspect because you were talking about offense lacking good responses to it, but I am so sick of people misusing terminology in suspect discussions to further their point.

Except I'm not? How many teams would you choose to use Granbull as your Fairy-type over Aromatisse? Not many because Granbull is used for its select few uses. When you're forced into using niche Pokemon, you have difficulty covering other threats as a result of their direct inferiority to their counterparts. It makes this game generally more matchupy as a result.

In summary, no me / EonX / Afro Smash / SilentVerse are not incompetent, we simply have a different tiering philosophy than you when it comes to quickbans (the traditional one to be exact).

If you're going to debate a point with someone, you need to not assume things out of thin air because I never said that any of you were. This was a questionable decision with questionable reasoning provided. It has nothing to directly do with you.

You think Mega Lopunny is broken and I can totally respect that, it probably is, but probably broken does not mean quick ban worthy, it means suspect worthy, and I'm not willing to compromise my beliefs on tiering because it is convenient timing.

That's a shame considering you have yet to provide one good point as to how offense is going to deal with it. I mean Thunder Wave Qwilfish, vague Choice scarf users references? Really? I can tell that you don't have anything to prove that Mega Lopunny isn't a giant hindrance towards offense because you're going so far as to use OTR Cofagrigigus and Spikes lead Thunder Wave Qwilfish to prove your point.

 

[atomicllamas]

Spirit did you really just imply revenge killers had to switch into an attack?

 

[New Breed]

hi so back again once again.

it seems that some unfortunate circumstances have arisen due to a certain council member not even bothering to play the tier before voting which has ended up directly effecting the lopunnite vote. I just wanted to post to explain that in no way is this the fault of Molk, he trusted the people voting to gain some sort of idea of the tier before voting or abstaining if they didn't and with the exception of one everyone else was able to do that. Nothing is confirmed at this stage but a re-vote on lopunnite is being considered and I am extremely for this idea. I just want to stress that while I disagree with the decision that was made on lopunnite I also respect the opinions of most of the people who voted no ban and also Molk's choice to abstain from voting due to not having enough experience with Mega-Lopunny.

Molk really wants to avoid the type of clusterfuck that happened in Ubers recently (mega gengar stayed after the test, then shadow tag itself was tested immediately after and a bunch of votes were deleted) and we are also aware that with SPL around the corner it is extremely beneficial for the tier to be balanced and to have some time to settle.

Your concerns about Mega-Lopunny have been heard.

 

[phantom]

@llamas No, I assumed that you listed Gurdurr as a check. Hitmonlee on the other hand does have to take a hit since it can't even KO with Mach Punch, so in that case it is necessary.

 

[Hot N Cold]

You and Hot N Cold throw around the word niche a lot but you use it in a manner that gives it such a negative connotation when that is not the case. Weezing is a niche Pokemon, its niche is a Physically-defensive Poison-type that can burn physical attackers, set t-spikes, and deal with much of the meta game. Having a niche is a good thing. This doesn't really apply to the Mega Lopunny suspect because you were talking about offense lacking good responses to it, but I am so sick of people misusing terminology in suspect discussions to further their point.

When I talk about niche means a great mon in the paper like Weezing or Regirock which are specially focused on a thing MOSTLY (like walling physical attacks or checking moltres, weezing and regirock case respectively) but which are subpar in the practise and very hard to fit on the big part of teams, just non-optimal for almost every team.

"Having a niche is a good thing"

Not really when you have to check a lot of threats and these niches mons like the word says are only useful to do a very dedicated job, you're using only 6 slots per team remember. Personally I'm very knowledge about the Weezing thing I was one of the first players on using Weezing in early XY RU along with SilentVerse and I really I like a lot his niche but common only fits on some defensive teams, was really hard to fit for me and I consider myself a very defensive player oriented (I dont wanna imagine how hard to fit for an offensive player). And again after all, stall/defensive teams are the harder one.
Weezing also takes around 60%~ from Return +1 (PuP), btw.

niche =/= good r bad, depends on the circumstances; on this case is bad.

 

[Afro Smash]

hi so back again once again.

it seems that some unfortunate circumstances have arisen due to a certain council member not even bothering to play the tier before voting which has ended up directly effecting the lopunnite vote

I think the people deserve to know which council member this is

 

[-Tsunami-]

Mega Lopunny is banned because of UU. Finally, they have done something useful to repay us for all the aids over the past few years