np: Doubles Stage 1 — Dragontown — Salamencite Suspect Discussion IT'S BANNED

[qsns]

Another point for banning Mega Mence that I've seen come up is how easy it is to set it up with proper support (redirection). The main flaw I find in this argument, however, is that it's very difficult in practice to get both your support 'mon and Salamence in at the same time without taking considerable damage/getting crippled. The only 100% safe way to get them both in safely is leading with them, but you have a multitude of problems to deal with: Fake Out, Taunt, or Intimidate.

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

Another point for banning Mega Mence that I've seen come up is how easy it is to set it up with proper support (redirection). The main flaw I find in this argument, however, is that it's very difficult in practice to get both your support 'mon and Salamence in at the same time without taking considerable damage/getting crippled. The only 100% safe way to get them both in safely is leading with them, but you have a multitude of problems to deal with: Fake Out, Taunt, or Intimidate.

Real tough to switch in those resistances + that bulk huh?

My opinions on Salamence.
Not broken but easy to break. I can reel off sheets of situations and Pokemon I can use to handle Mega Salamence, however these are mostly irrelevant as this is Smogon Doubles. That means I have another Pokemon right by it's side who can fix its weakness with ease.
The most obvious example of this is using a redirecting Pokemon such as Jirachi or Amoonguss. Jirachi is the obvious choice since it's typing has better synergy with Salamence's, however it is worth noting that Amoonguss has a great matchup vs Trick Room and also helps beat bulky water types which Salamence has to be wary of. With redirection, Salamence has a few options. First off is to just attack, and boy can it do that. Just a quick glance at some of the calcs already posted in the thread will show you that there are very few answers to an invested Return or Double-Edge. The other option is to set up. Here Salamence has two choices, Dragon Dance provides a big "Fuck you!" to anybody facing it. Your traditional answers to physical attackers such as Ferrothorn, Landorus-T, and Gyarados are not putting a stop to this behemoth given the immence (intentional) power of a +1 Aerialate boosted STAB attack. Even the queen of bulk Cresselia quakes at the thought of a +1 Double Edge from Salamence. the second option, Substitute is a more subtle "Fuck you!" but is still equally terrifying. Behind a substitute, Salamene no longer fears its shay checks and can simply spam attacks without worrying about Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, or Intimidate. Salamence was granted a huge boost to its bulk, 130 Def + Intimidate means that Landorus-T actually has a chance to fail at breaking a Salamence substitute with Rock Slide after Intimidate.

However, redirection isn't the only option. It's equally as rewarding to simply partner Salamence with another Pokemon that it has good synergy with. I'm going to highlight a couple combinations that I think are particularly potent.

+

I don't think the Rotom formes are particularly great vs mence in the first place but using scarf Mold Breaker Excadrill means they're really dead and buried. Use of Excadrill allows Salamence to go mixed more freely as it doesn't have to use EQ to deal with Pokemon like Heatran. Fire Blast can be used for more troublesome Steel-types such as Scizor, or Hydro Pump can be used for Landorus-T.

+

In my opinion, the two best ways of beating Salamence are, Trick Room and Hyper Offence. Cresselia helps against both of the play-styles. A support set can twist the dimensions back in your favor or really slow down a HO team which needs to maintain momentum to steamroll through a balanced team.

+

or

Salamence forces switches. A Pokemon with a Choice Scarf and U-turn can make great advantage of this fact. It's simple to pivot out of whatever Pokemon is brought in to help handle Salamence and switch into a Pokemon which threatens the check. Landorus-T also provides a double intimidate core which is pretty difficult to punch through providing Ice-type Pokemon are at least weakened. Genesect has a better typing synergy and can also have it's coverage tailored to handle whatever your team is threatened by.

Salamence requires such a minimal amount of support to help achieve which is why I'm leaning towards ban.

 

[yohoE]

yo dis nigga hella broke

salamence inhabits one of the best speed tiers in the whole tier, letting it out-speed the whole tier bar random niggas like darkrai, skymin, deo, etc. alongside it's godly speed tier, it has a solid af attack of 145 and 120 spa, adding in it's ability, aeriliate, dis nigga fucks everything up.

however, the speed tier + strong attacking stats/ability isn't the biggest thing it has going for it. the thing that puts mence over the top is the combination of the above-listed points and its amazing bulk. 95/130/95 + intimidate basically allows it to switch-in on/set-up on the better half of the tier.

to give an example of it's bulk, mence with no investment can easily tank a banded ice shard from mamoswine or a max attack stone edge from landorus, and either ohko or set-up then ohko back.
now, you may say you can run something like skarm or some other bulky nigga, but nah, i could just have my boy fire blast in my back Pocket and bop you, hue hue

ban pls

also, why tf do i have to get reqs twice? dis some bs

 

[GiraGoomy]

I'm personally very abstain as of now in whether MegaMence is broken or not, however I think that the points put out by Totem and yohoE sum up everything I was thinking in my own mind. I don't see MegaMence as broken by itself in this tier, however I do see it broken in the fact that it can have redirecting mons such as Jirachi or Amoonguss to help deal with it's weaknesses or just allow it to set up. As Totem also said, most Pokemon used for their defensive capabilities don't enjoy switching in to a Salamence whatsoever. In fact, some could say nothing would want to switch into Salamence, because even if you switch in something that can take any of Salamence's attacks, it's highly likely the partner next to it will be able to limit the Pokemon you have switched in. The combo that Totem highlighted of Salamence + Excadrill is a really good core that I'd like to have a look at. The main types of Pokemon that you'd want to switch in on a MegaMence would be Rock, Steel and Electric types right? However with Excadrill's Earthquake, you are threatning to hit all those types Super Effectively which limits the Pokemon that you are willing to switch in. These types of combo's and synergies going around with MegaMence is also making it very over-centralising to the meta which is something I don't like personally, but I don't know about everyone else. Practically what I'm saying here is that MegaMence has the ability to not only straight up threaten a lot of the meta, but also be paired up with Pokemon of great synergies to threaten all of the meta.

Salamence does inhabit an incredible Speed stat and is in a good speed tier, only beaten by Darkrai, Shaymin, etc. This paired along with it's Attack and Special Attack stats make Salamence a huge threat again because if you prepare for a physical set and it pulls out a special set, you could be in some trouble. Either way, this can make Salamence not only a huge threat, but a huge, versatile threat. I think everyone has already pointed out how hard it can hit so I'm not going to go into detail here about that. I think the Defence it has though is just disgusting. 95/130/95 and Intimidate is extremely good, and can easily make it able for MegaMence to set up when faced against the right Pokemon and knock them out, or just straight survive an attack and knock them out. Banded Ice Shard from Mamo and a Max Attack Stone Edge from Lando just show this off. I think this is ridiculously strong and shouldn't have to be dealed with if most of the community don't want to deal with it.

Right now though i'm abstain about Mega-Mence. It's never given me problems when I've played but I can still see what it has the capabilities to do. We'll see if this thread changes my opinion :)

 

[DDRMaster]

From my experience, I've found Salamence+Jirachi fairly underwhelming. Sure you can redirect and resist all of Salamence's weaknesses, but it's not too hard to kill Jirachi first or at least hit it hard enough so it can't redirect attacks for more than a turn.

And that's if you can bring them both out at the same time. As qsns said, it can be difficult in practice to bring them both in without taking a large amount of damage on the way in and it's hard to find a spot for Protect on Jirachi, meaning you can't just switch Salamence in on a predicted Grass or Ground move while Jirachi is Protecting itself on the field. The best way to get them both out would be after your opponent knocked out both of your Pokemon, but being down 2 Pokemon is certainly not an ideal scenario.

This is why I feel Amoongus+Salamence is better for setting up, even though they're both weak to Ice. You can bring Amoongus out early with some sort of threatening Pokemon that your opponent will target down and use Spore to stop one of their Pokemon. Then you can bring Salamence in (probably best if they did kill that sweeper) and have Amoongus need to potentially only redirect one strong attack to set up.

With all of this, I'm still leaning towards no ban because I haven't had much opportunity to set up with Salamence and even when I do, it doesn't always hit hard enough if the opponent resists (or occasionally even takes neutral damage from) Flying-type moves and isn't hit SE by its coverage moves. 145/120 offenses aren't all that high when you can't back them up with a Life Orb, which Salamence only gets for free on its Normal attacks.

 

[koolkranny]

I have been using Mega Salamence and the only time I have ever actually had a problem beating a team with it, was a bulky choice band Gyrados. And that isn't exactly the most common mon or set.

To fully understand what is going on with Mega Mence, I'm going to break down what makes people want to ban it.

A big problem is that Salamence is viable as either a mega or a non mega. And even if you know it is a mega, you can't be certain if it is the special set or a physical set. It's unpredictability is the first major qualm everyone has with it.

Then comes the abilities. Before it mega evolves it intimidates the opponents. When you factor in how much physical bulk it has (95/130/90, thats better than Skarmory) then you realize that it can switch into a physical opponent, mega evolve and set up a dragon dance while they switch out or futilely try to break him, and then proceed to sweep the opponents entire team, only getting out-sped by priority. Aerialate is mega Mence's ablility, which makes normal type moves become flying, and gives them a boost of 30% in addition to the stab gained. There have been enough calcs on this thread to emphasize the amount of power a return or double edge does.

Another problem is that Mence has menacing stats before he mega evolves, and even more menacing stats after. As a pseudo-legendary, Salamence starts off with a BST of 600. They are spread mostly evenly with an emphasis on ATK and SPA. 100 Speed allows it to tie with most of the XY megas. After Mega Evolution, its BST becomes 700, putting it above cover legendaries such as Ho-oh, Palkia, or Xerneas. It's ATK goes up, its DEF becomes tankish, and its speed (120) allows it to go faster than most of the meta.

The fun doesn't stop there however, its typing is the icing on the cake. Dragon/Flying gives it extraordinary coverage options, allowing it to hit most everything neutrally with stab. Or it can drop the dragon stab move and use earthquake instead, allowing it to hit steel types. This leaves only flying/electric or levitating electric types able to resist it's moves.

Down sides to Mega Mence:
4X weakness to Ice means that anyone who can go faster and has decent SPA investment can KO with an ice beam.
252 SpA Deoxys-A Ice Beam vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 548-648 (149.3 - 176.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Fairy weakness means that most Hyper Voices OHKO even through a substitute. Some redirection on the opponents side plus specs Sylveon was a common strategy before ORAS, and still has the ability destroy teams.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 612-720 (166.7 - 196.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Trick room completely shuts down Mence's ability to sweep, requiring teammates to stall or defeat the Trick room team. Prankster paralysis is also common and can also do the same thing.



I will hold out judgement until I can get a good handle on how Mega Salamence works in the new meta. It isn't invincible, but it is giving Mega Kangaskhan a run for her money.

 

[DaAwesomeDude1]

Personally I feel like trick room is only a good "counter" against the DD set. With the special set, you won't be as compelled to lead with sala + redirection which allows you to partner mence with something for TR. Plus the special set allows you to run more coverage too whereas the DD set pretty much gives you only one coverage move alongside your normal STAB. For now, due to its insane 95/130/90 bulk alongside intimidate before its mega, the unpredictability of its set (just because there's a rachi and sala on the same team doesn't mean that it's always the DD set), and the sheer power this thing has, I am for banning it.

 

[Empress]

From my experience, I've found Salamence+Jirachi fairly underwhelming. Sure you can redirect and resist all of Salamence's weaknesses, but it's not too hard to kill Jirachi first or at least hit it hard enough so it can't redirect attacks for more than a turn.

And that's if you can bring them both out at the same time. As qsns said, it can be difficult in practice to bring them both in without taking a large amount of damage on the way in and it's hard to find a spot for Protect on Jirachi, meaning you can't just switch Salamence in on a predicted Grass or Ground move while Jirachi is Protecting itself on the field. The best way to get them both out would be after your opponent knocked out both of your Pokemon, but being down 2 Pokemon is certainly not an ideal scenario.

This is why I feel Amoongus+Salamence is better for setting up, even though they're both weak to Ice. You can bring Amoongus out early with some sort of threatening Pokemon that your opponent will target down and use Spore to stop one of their Pokemon. Then you can bring Salamence in (probably best if they did kill that sweeper) and have Amoongus need to potentially only redirect one strong attack to set up.

With all of this, I'm still leaning towards no ban because I haven't had much opportunity to set up with Salamence and even when I do, it doesn't always hit hard enough if the opponent resists (or occasionally even takes neutral damage from) Flying-type moves and isn't hit SE by its coverage moves. 145/120 offenses aren't all that high when you can't back them up with a Life Orb, which Salamence only gets for free on its Normal attacks.

I disagree here, as typically, Salamence will lead with its redirecting partner. Granted, once you see Jirachi and Salamence together in Team Preview, you'll know they will probably be leading, and thus you can plan accordingly. But if they're out at the very start of the battle, you barely need Protect on Jirachi, and will be nearly guaranteed to get a free DD. Unlike Amoonguss, Grass-types can't hit through Jirachi's Follow Me. (It's hilarious to hit Salamence with an Air Slash from Skymin if the Amoonguss paired with Salamence uses Rage Powder.) And the fact remains that those two share a weakness to Ice, so their worse type synergy makes them a worse pairing. Jirachi might just be a suicide decoy for two turns at most, but he's a damn effective decoy.

As for coverage moves, Salamence typically only needs Earthquake if it's running a DD set. Many Pokemon that resist its Flying STAB, like Heatran, Metagross, Mawile, Bisharp, and Aegislash, get hit super-effectively by Earthquake. 145 Attack is also plenty with the Aerilate boost, even on bulky neutral targets. Once it gets its free DD, have fun switching in such defensive mons:
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 232 HP / 84+ Def Suicune: 264-312 (66.1 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (regular) Slowbro: 238-282 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And even if it doesn't get its DD up:
252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Ferrothorn: 175-207 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (99.6% chance to 2HKO without it)
252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 237-279 (52.9 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 313-369 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO

And that's just Return. Should you run Double-edge on Salamence, suddenly those damage percentages get noticeably larger. Even Mega Slowbro, perhaps the greatest physical tank in the metagame, is merely a check and not a counter.
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
Nonetheless, this is really the only defensive mon that Salamence will struggle to break with Return, as far as I know. If I'm missing any, please let me know.

Edit: Made reqs on the regular ladder.

 

[Electrolyte]

I have not solidly chosen a personal stance yet because I do want to run some more tests with mixed / purely special sets to flesh out MMence's true potential. However, I do want to address some arguments already made that I find not as particularly legitimate.


"Mence + Redirection is bad because it's very difficult to get the two in at once"

This claim is unreliable, not only because its validity is questionable but also because it's unfair and restricting to assume that every team and every player can put forth the amount of offensive pressure that is required to prevent the two from coming in at once. Mence itself has Intimidate which boosts its bulk the moment it switches in, and its Mega form is hella bulky, as a lot of people have already mentioned. It's more physically bulky stat-wise than Skarmory for crying out loud, and it's got a pretty marvelous typing to go along with it, weak mainly to one of the riskiest attack types to invest STAB in. The more popular redirectors, Jirachi and Amoonguss, both have many chances to switch in throughout matches and synergize well enough with Mega Salamence that uncommonly will there be any risk factor in double switching.

The risk vs reward for each player is too unbalanced; Mence players lose little when their Mence isn't paired with a redirector but gain a lot when it is; counterplayers may still lose when Mence isn't paired with a redirector and almost certainly will when it is (if they don't also have the proper counters out.) Speaking of counters, this is also a two sided argument - it may be difficult to get Mence / Redir in, but it's also equally if not more difficult to get the counters in as well before the pair deals too much irreversible damage.

All the while, counterplayers are fighting a defensive battle and not an offensive battle; in the case where a counter is sent in safely, Mence players can just retreat. And it's not like Stealth Rock is super popular to limit switching.



"Trick Room counters Mega Salamence"

The "XX loses to __team framework__ so it doesn't need to be banned" is not an acceptable counterargument to the pro-ban overpower argument because we can't keep something in the tier just because a certain archetype or field condition (especially one as volatile as Trick Room) happens to counter it. Thus, you can't look to environments where Trick Room is up continuously or almost continuously, so much so that it's pretty much guaranteed that it'll be up when Mega Mence decides to make a show.

You can't really look to set it during the fact, either, as Trick Room is not something you can just reliably set up in the face of one of the most powerful attackers in the tier and whatever support Pokemon may be tagging along with it. It's also not something you can fairly expect the common team to carry, and some semi TR teams still can't beat Mega Mence under TR anyway, so it's not a reliable counter.

Also, TOTEMO mentioned Cress being a great partner for Mence as it can reset TR, so Mence players have tricks up their sleeves, too. Mence players can carry a whole load of possible TR counters and don't even have to strain synergy-wise by a lot to do so, while teams that plan on going that route to beat it certainly have to make a lot of concessions, moveslot-wise and momentum-wise.





I feel like in the end this argument is really going to boil down to "Can Mega Salamence set up reliably or not?" A large part of its threatening power is its potential to boost that even further; this differentiates it from other common Doubles attackers, who usually rely on hit and run, coverage, and raw power to be threatening. Mence has all of those natural traits, but in the Doubles environment that alone isn't purely enough to make something broken - I mean, even boosting might not be. Just look at Mega Kangaskhan from last generation, who was just as bulky because it lacked multiple weaknesses, more powerful, and blessed with not only priority but also faster setup in PuP, yet still not considered broken. The main things Mence has over it is greater ability to synergize, resistances, and coverage. But is that enough?

Pro-ban needs to prove:
1. Mence finds lots of opportunities to boost
AND
2. Mence after a boost is nigh unstoppable

And at this point, I think the argument can still go both ways tbh. I'll have to wait and see.

 

[Haruno]

All right, from the looks of it, most of you don't know what you're talking about so I'll address most of the points (and fuck ya'll for ignoring my initial post)

I don't really think Mega Salamence is as broken as some people are making it out to be. Sure it is versatile, sure it hits like a truck. But you have to consider that is has a lot more weaknesses than another powerhouse mega known as Kangaskhan who actually got a lot more moves to work with thanks to the ORAS move tutors.

Stuff like Suicune, Milotic, and others can take any one hit from Salamence and then OHKO back with Ice Beam. Sure, Salamence teams can run redirection (they should, or they're doing it wrong). But Amoonguss + Kangaskhan or Follow Me support + a super powerful mega is nothing new from before and not to mention Icy Wind helps control the speed and you always have the Prankster Thunder Wave from Thundurus.

Intimidate and Will-O-Wisp helps check physical sets. I could go on about it.

Like, Mega Kangaskhan is a lot harder to deal with and if that is still in the tier, then Mega Salamence should stay too in my opinion. A myriad of ways to check the myriad potential sets a Salamence could carry.

Yo pretty much everything you listed (milotic/suicune) are fucking bopped after a DD and even worse are that they do nothing against any of mence's common partners (kiss/amoong/rachi). Ice beam by nature of being a single target move means that redirection bops you hard. Now onto the icy wind part, let me start by saying this, it is weak, and by weak I mean it's pitifully weak. A non stab base 55 move that's even further reduced thanks to spread damage. Just to list some calcs to give you example of why it's ass against mence.

252 SpA Suicune Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 156-184 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 69.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Milotic Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 164-196 (49.5 - 59.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

This is pretty much max SpA (which is never run btw) and even a quadruple damage attack doesn't even do enough to guarantee a 2hko, now I don't know if this shows how weak the mons/icy wind are, or if it shows how bulky mega mence is, but it certainly isn't a good answer.

Also powerful megas + redirector hasn't had such a powerful and bulky and fast mon to abuse before so that other point is pretty moot. Mence's only real downside is lack of priority but even then it's not that big a deal unless your opp is under TW/TR or some shit and it can more than easily stall it out.

Honestly, I'm a bit on the fence about Mence and this thread is going to definitely be the deciding factor if I vote.

The main thing I see about banning Mence is how easy it is to set up without redirection. Its almost universally agreed that it's best set is DDance, and with support from redirectors like Amoonguss and Jirachi, it's able to turn a 2-6 into a 2-0. The combination of power, bulk, and speed are the traits of a potentially broken 'mon and base form Intimidate is definitely the pushing factor for most people.

However, I do think Salamence has a decent pool of viable checks. Thundurus and Safety Goggles Rotom-H are able to negate (Taunt or Goggles) or kill (Rotom-H kills Jirachi and Amoonguss, Thundurus kills Togekiss) redirectors and cripple Mence. Shuca TTar with Ice Beam, Scarf Genesect, and Suicune are very viable options with Ice Beam to OHKO it. Viable mons like Jirachi and Heatran can take its attacks and retaliate. Sure, you can run obscure coverage moves such as Fire Blast and Hydro Pump to bop these 'mons, but it really does reduce the effectiveness of Salamence. I feel versatility isn't a great argument when you have such a huge opportunity cost to run a move that usually never sees use.

It may seem like I'm leaning towards the no ban side, but I don't really think I need to explain the strengths of Mence lol


edit: sorry for my terrible phrasing and shit i was watching toradora at the same time

i'll make posts with less shitty phrasing later

Mence doesn't have to stay in when it's threatened, and the mons you listed sure as hell aren't switching in (referring to thund-i/heattom). The single target ice beam option isn't reliable either due to how prone mence is to being partnered with a follow me/rage powder user, and what's even more obvious is if mence + partner is unable to threaten a mon enough say for example suicune, it has no reason to stay in and try taking the ice beam so even that is iffy a well.

One thing I'd like to note that you (and pretty much everyone on the ladder) is how scarfers "handle" mence when that is far from the case since unless mence is trying to set up on said ice beam user (bad player right here), it's safe to assume that it might have gotten a DD up which at that point makes scarfers irrelevant because base 120speed is just that good a speed tier, random shit mons like scarf hp ice zapdos/gene aren't reliable answers simply because of the fact that they're relying on outspeeding mence, which again is very situational, and the mons that have a coveted base 121+ speed are fucking trash as scarfers (see darkrai, skymin, GRENINJA) among other things so scarfers are far from reliable.

I haven't done a suspect test since Skymin back in Platinum on Shoddybattle. I'm a little excited to try one again. So the ladder called (current) is the Megamence'd one, and the suspect ladder is the Megamenceless, one, right?

I'm giving a special-heavy mixed set a run because the Aerialated Hyper Voice is so bloody spammable and 145 attack is high enough that Earthquake deals massive damage to all but the hardiest or levitating-est flying resists even without investment. Mega-Kanga has a serious case of 4MSS, but Megamence has 3MSS - that 4th slot might as well be empty for how little I need it between Hyper Voice, EQ, and Protect. The thing is, it has a billion options for that 4th slot Rock Slide, Stone Edge, Roost, Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, Heat Wave, Substitute, Dragon Dance, Tailwind, Return, or Double-Edge. Besides being so bloody powerful, this thing is versatile.

The thing is tough, too. Comparable in bulk to Metagross, but with Intimidate and far better typing. Hidden Power Ices and uninvested Ice Beams don't break it and even with a defense- nature it takes physical moves with ease.

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 211-250 (63.7 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 230-272 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 238-280 (71.9 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 217-256 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These are all without intimidate, even. It's faster than all of these, and can two-shot them back with common moves; they can't switch in.

It partners extremely well with common good 'mons like Terrakion and Togekiss, who cover its few flaws and help it always keep the other guy on the back foot. I am either battling mediocre players or Megamence is so overwhelming that it forces narrow, predictable lines of play as everything else just crumbles.

I'm not really sure there's a way to deal with Megamence.

Why the hell are you running hyper voice + earthquake? That sounds pretty terrible on paper.

No one has brought this up, but since Trick Room has been (in many people's minds) improved this generation, let's talk about how a full trick room play-style can counter mega-mence.

Basically, with a trick roomer and a slow attacker present, Mega Salamence loses his ability to set up for free, and even when he does attack, his attacks don't do enough to stop trick room from setting up, and when it's set the conditions have changed to strongly incapacitate mega-mence.


Some Popular Setters:

Aromatisse: is imo one of the most reliable setters in the game. untauntable, with decent bulk, here's how the smogon set takes damage from mega-mence.

252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Aromatisse: 283-334 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Aromatisse: 241-285 (59.3 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cresselia: It's cress
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Cresselia: 243-286 (54.7 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dusclops: can also will-o-wisp after setting up t-room
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 144-169 (50.7 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Chandelure: it's barely an ohko but focus sash so?

If the t-room setter is not double-targeted, it will mostly likely live. Take into account the popular fake out/follow me/rage powder stuff to help the t-roomer set up, as well as the presence of another slow bulky offensive member on your team, and it is very likely that your setter will get up t-room. especially aromatisse and mental herb cress.
also, if there's a t-roomer there's a good chance that mega-mence won't be set up.

Now, the slow mon that can strike back hard has hell.
We want:

1. ice beam or other ice move or anything that can ohko
2. maybe have something jirachi and still be able to survive? (lots of mention of jirachi up there)
3. spread is good for redirects
4. special attacker better because of intimidate

Mega-Mence Destruction Mons:

Mega Blastoise:
252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 484-572 (145.7 - 172.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 214-252 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mega Mawile:
180+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 420-494 (126.5 - 148.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Mega Mawile: 208-246 (68.4 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can take the hit)
180+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 376-444 (93 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Mega Tyranitar:
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 192-228 (57.8 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 182-216 (45 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO * can take the hit back
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 342-404 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Mega Ampharos:
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 398-470 (119.8 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Conkeldurr:
152+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 340-404 (102.4 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
152+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 230-272 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sylveon: (goes behind sub!!!)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 458-540 (137.9 - 162.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Rhyperior: you might want to use physical attackers as switch-ins, but this shows even with intimidate physical attackers can do really well.
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 148-174 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 265-312 (79.8 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

without intimidate (if you switch in)

252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 395-468 (118.9 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of viable t-roomers and t-room attackers that can counter megamence hard and also get rid of the pesky jirachi as well. If there was anything really obvious I missed, please tell me.

I might edit later if I've had my mind changed, but as of now I think well-thought out trick room teams can shut Mega-Mence down without having to completely base their teams off of countering mega-mence.

I leave you with this concluding thought:
0 SpA Aromatisse Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 222-264 (66.8 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



edit: in regards to an amoonguss if you see it on the opposing team with mega-mence.

Weesh (Jirachi) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Follow Me
- Iron Head
- Trick Room
- Protect

T-room first turn, mega-mence prob can't do too much damage unless it predicts the t-room and goes for earthquake o.o
follow me the spore to get the attack. can take returns fairly well.
252+ Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 194-230 (48 - 56.9%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 129-153 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hi I have a base 120 speed tier and I'd love to stay on the field under trick room and trying to do anything other than spam protect to try and outlast it, or better yet, I won't have a partner spamming rage powder/spore that just so happens to be slow as fuck that it can sleep the mons that threaten me. This was spoken by no player ever.

As of right now I don't believe mence is broken. Mence + Rachi is a pain but there's a lot of ways to get around that (fave being hyper voice + rachi). It's not too much hassle to stack mence checks, and while that doesn't make mence useless, I've found it to be incredibly hard to DD when I use mence, even alongside Rachi (maybe my team just isn't built for that). Never have too much trouble handling the combo either. It might be better if Rachi didn't have such 4mss and could more easily run Protect, but right now it seems not too difficult to weaken Rachi before the mence gets a chance to go to town. TR is also an amazing mence check. I've fought mence with a variety of teams (goodstuff offense, semi TR, balance, full TR, rain) and found all able to handle the typical Bulky DD set. My main concern is that people will start mixing it up and using setup-less sets more often which will make it harder to predict and play around mence; as long as everyone is using the same ddmence+rachi shit its not too bad though. the calcs are impressive of course but it seems like all I've ever been able to pull off with mence is firing off a couple +0 Double Edges (admittedly really good in itself but not necessarily above what I'd expect from an S rank but unbroken mega).

Mence is really broken on paper, but in practice it's typically forced to attack or protect to stay alive, which keeps it in the realm of sanity. Unless someone changes my opinion, I think it'd be wiser to keep mence for now and revisit later to see if we've found better answers. rachi is probably s rank if we keep mence in the meta tho, but i'm not sure i'm complaining, it's super cute.

edit: in case someone asks, the teams i'm referencing above are
1) Salamence / Jirachi / Darkrai / Rotom-H / Breloom / Sylveon
2) Metagross / Cresselia / Rotom-w / Heatran / Amoonguss / Landorus-T
3) Diancie / Bisharp / Suicune / Landorus-T / Volcarona / Hydreigon
4) FANGAME10
5) Mawile / Thundurus / Politoed / Ludicolo / Togekiss / Terrakion

edit2: lol i even used a hail team and that worked too tbh
Abomasnow / Talonflame / Suicune / Latios / Terrakion / Aegislash

Do you want me to post dozens of replays with me using bunny rampage where I used frailer mons that successfully manage to set up? Mence getting a DD is similar to kanga or azumarill getting their respective boosts up because they apply so much pressure on the opponent that your opponent is constantly on the back foot and if they predict wrong then they're fucked. And stacking mence checks isn't the easiest thing since stacking mence checks means you're stacking elec/rock/steel mons and take a guess what common attacking type bops all three of them, and it's not like landoge's usage/viability has gone down with ORAS, so your claims of being able to "easily" stack mence checks is far from the truth.

I'm of the opinion that mence is broken on paper but in practise is easier to play around than it sounds. Pwnemon already brought up this point I was going to touch on so I won't go into it too far, but mence does require support that can be accounted for to clean house.

I was heavily leaning towards not banning, but I feel I was being biased over what I consider banworthy. However after playing since ORAS came out, I've seen shit like scarf Greninja and infiltrator sash Whimsicott. This may just be the meta overcompensating for something the entire community is hyping up like the next Jesus, but its too early to say.

As it stands I'm on the fence about it, and will be playing with mence extensively to gain more experience with it and form a better opinion. I'm not currently sure if mence is over-centralising, or if the hype has sent people into an over prepared panic.

What people run on the bottom of the ladder should not be influential on a mon's potential brokenness or not since mons like scarf greninja, non prankster whimsi, will never be used by any competent player and even on the off chance that they do, th

Another point for banning Mega Mence that I've seen come up is how easy it is to set it up with proper support (redirection). The main flaw I find in this argument, however, is that it's very difficult in practice to get both your support 'mon and Salamence in at the same time without taking considerable damage/getting crippled. The only 100% safe way to get them both in safely is leading with them, but you have a multitude of problems to deal with: Fake Out, Taunt, or Intimidate.

landoge boom + ko'ing your partner to ensure a free switch to two of your mons is one of the ways that bunny rampage sets up its main wincon and something similar can be done for mence, sacking one, two, three or even four mons isn't a big deal if it guarantees that you'll be able to win the match.

yo dis nigga hella broke

salamence inhabits one of the best speed tiers in the whole tier, letting it out-speed the whole tier bar random niggas like darkrai, skymin, deo, etc. alongside it's godly speed tier, it has a solid af attack of 145 and 120 spa, adding in it's ability, aeriliate, dis nigga fucks everything up.

however, the speed tier + strong attacking stats/ability isn't the biggest thing it has going for it. the thing that puts mence over the top is the combination of the above-listed points and its amazing bulk. 95/130/95 + intimidate basically allows it to switch-in on/set-up on the better half of the tier.

to give an example of it's bulk, mence with no investment can easily tank a banded ice shard from mamoswine or a max attack stone edge from landorus, and either ohko or set-up then ohko back.
now, you may say you can run something like skarm or some other bulky nigga, but nah, i could just have my boy fire blast in my back Pocket and bop you, hue hue

ban pls

also, why tf do i have to get reqs twice? dis some bs

I love you <3

I have been using Mega Salamence and the only time I have ever actually had a problem beating a team with it, was a bulky choice band Gyrados. And that isn't exactly the most common mon or set.

To fully understand what is going on with Mega Mence, I'm going to break down what makes people want to ban it.

A big problem is that Salamence is viable as either a mega or a non mega. And even if you know it is a mega, you can't be certain if it is the special set or a physical set. It's unpredictability is the first major qualm everyone has with it.

Then comes the abilities. Before it mega evolves it intimidates the opponents. When you factor in how much physical bulk it has (95/130/90, thats better than Skarmory) then you realize that it can switch into a physical opponent, mega evolve and set up a dragon dance while they switch out or futilely try to break him, and then proceed to sweep the opponents entire team, only getting out-sped by priority. Aerialate is mega Mence's ablility, which makes normal type moves become flying, and gives them a boost of 30% in addition to the stab gained. There have been enough calcs on this thread to emphasize the amount of power a return or double edge does.

Another problem is that Mence has menacing stats before he mega evolves, and even more menacing stats after. As a pseudo-legendary, Salamence starts off with a BST of 600. They are spread mostly evenly with an emphasis on ATK and SPA. 100 Speed allows it to tie with most of the XY megas. After Mega Evolution, its BST becomes 700, putting it above cover legendaries such as Ho-oh, Palkia, or Xerneas. It's ATK goes up, its DEF becomes tankish, and its speed (120) allows it to go faster than most of the meta.

The fun doesn't stop there however, its typing is the icing on the cake. Dragon/Flying gives it extraordinary coverage options, allowing it to hit most everything neutrally with stab. Or it can drop the dragon stab move and use earthquake instead, allowing it to hit steel types. This leaves only flying/electric or levitating electric types able to resist it's moves.

Down sides to Mega Mence:
4X weakness to Ice means that anyone who can go faster and has decent SPA investment can KO with an ice beam.
252 SpA Deoxys-A Ice Beam vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 548-648 (149.3 - 176.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Fairy weakness means that most Hyper Voices OHKO even through a substitute. Some redirection on the opponents side plus specs Sylveon was a common strategy before ORAS, and still has the ability destroy teams.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 612-720 (166.7 - 196.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Trick room completely shuts down Mence's ability to sweep, requiring teammates to stall or defeat the Trick room team. Prankster paralysis is also common and can also do the same thing.



I will hold out judgement until I can get a good handle on how Mega Salamence works in the new meta. It isn't invincible, but it is giving Mega Kangaskhan a run for her money.

standard mence is utter shit and doesn't have anywhere near as dominating a presence due to lack of good stabs (aerial ace is shit) and being forced to rely on coverage moves for damage in general which isn't good.

4x weak to ice isn't as big a deal as you make it out to be and anything faster with decent SpA investment sounds nice and all............ but the mons that fit that bill are limited to darkrai/deoxys/greninja all of which are fucked after a DD, have huge problems on their own and thus aren't reliable as a check at all. Also I like how you listed something with decent SpA investment and just went straight for the mon with base 180 attacking stats mate.



Fairy weakness is even less of a problem since mence threatens all pixelate hyper voice users with a near/OHKO in addition to outspeeding all of them so I don't see how this point is valid at all. Who cares if they ohko mence with their respective stabs if they never get the chance to use them? And if you're going to say something like under TW/TR then said fairy move users outspeed it, then why the hell would mence stay in anyways? There is no reason for mence staying in and getting ohko'd unless you have a very good reason for it.
















I'd respond to more of these posts but frankly they're either even more tl;dr than this post, or too iffy for me to respond to. Also fuck being forced to ladder twice, once on a ladder where mence is rarely used (ran into it once in the 30 or so games it took me to make reqs), and another time where mence is unusable which is pretty much the same as the former ladder.

edit: and speaking of reqs, I peaked #1 on the ladder fgts.

Fuck Shaian for muting me for thinking I'm impersonating pwnemon :((((((( and if anyone is interested in the team I used to make reqs here you go. http://pastebin.com/e7jzV7QQ

 

[megacyber]

stuff.

That bit about Salamence not really needing redirection was pretty spot-on (it certainly does help though). I decided to build around Mence with that mindset, and shot to, like, number three on the ladder in a couple hours (obv, it's not that impressive considering the suspect test and all, but still...) Anyways, I just picked up doubles again about a week ago, and still managed to do better than a handful of well-known names around here that are way more skilled/experienced/handsome than I am. Basically, In addition to gloating, I'm trying to say that the presence of Mega-Mence allows poorer players to beat better ones, and lessens skill gap– it's that good.

On to the actual content.

So, the team I used was a hyper offensive team consisting of Mega-Mence, Deo-A, Bisharp, Infernape, Thundurus, and Amoonguss. (http://pastebin.com/0s9irHYN)
When playing this team, I found that Mence often didn't really need the redirection support from Amoonguss, or very much support at all. I often found I didn't need to switch Mence out when its defensive checks/counters came in, because Mence doesn't really need that much extra help to beat those mons. After one hit from pretty much any mon on my team (bar Amoonguss), Mence's usual checks are pretty much destroyed by +1 Return/EQ. I would do calcs, but lazy. There are probably some relevant ones on the first page of this here thread though, if you care. In addition, the threat of Mence possibly setting up a DD and thusly being able to sweep most of my opponents team forced my opponents to pretty much always make the safest plays, because overpredicting would either cost them usually at least two mons/the game. This gave Mence's partners much more leeway in firing off strong-ass attacks, because Mence drew so much attention away from them.

tl:dr -
ban salamencite

 

[DDRMaster]

I disagree here, as typically, Salamence will lead with its redirecting partner. Granted, once you see Jirachi and Salamence together in Team Preview, you'll know they will probably be leading, and thus you can plan accordingly. But if they're out at the very start of the battle, you barely need Protect on Jirachi, and will be nearly guaranteed to get a free DD. Unlike Amoonguss, Grass-types can't hit through Jirachi's Follow Me. (It's hilarious to hit Salamence with an Air Slash from Skymin if the Amoonguss paired with Salamence uses Rage Powder.) And the fact remains that those two share a weakness to Ice, so their worse type synergy makes them a worse pairing. Jirachi might just be a suicide decoy for two turns at most, but he's a damn effective decoy.

Leading with Salamence isn't as amazing of an option as you might think because it will almost certainly not be able to keep up a sweep for the entire game. As long as you don't keep throwing Pokemon that can OHKO Salamence, you can take it and its redirecting partner out without losing many Pokemon (which likely won't even be Megas). If you can KO your opponent's Mega and another Pokemon for just 2 of your own, that's an advantage in my book.

have fun switching in such defensive mons:
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 232 HP / 84+ Def Suicune: 264-312 (66.1 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (regular) Slowbro: 238-282 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Why are we switching Pokemon in after it already has the DD up? Our opponent would need to have us do basically nothing the first turn and then switch the second. The possible 2HKO's without the DD are much better points. As for Double Edge, Salamence sacrifices a good chunk of its bulk every time it uses it thanks to the recoil. Things like 4 SpAtk Suicune's Ice Beam will OHKO Salamence even with minimum damage roles on both attacks.

Gyarados can also serve as a good check to physical Mega Mence.
252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Gyarados: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- 3HKO with Sitrus Berry
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Gyarados: 138-163 (35 - 41.3%) -- 4HKO with Sitrus Berry
0 Atk Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 180-216 (54.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So thanks to Intimidate and Sitrus Berry, Gyarados can come in on either a Return or a DD and proceed to 2HKO physical Salamence before it can KO back. With Double-Edge, Salamence can come out on top, but the residual damage from the recoil means it'll kill itself at the same time as Gyarados. And as far as this being a specialized check and thus showing that Mega Mence is over centralizing, this is just one move on a set that's on the Smogdex, which leaves plenty of room for things like Taunt that has great utility.

As for stacking Mega Mence checks it isn't hard to do at all. Looking at some of my recent teams, they have 3-4 Mega Mence checks and only 1-2 of them are actually weak to Ground, meaning just using Earthquake or Landorus-T won't be able to break them down. 2 of these teams were made before the suspect test even began, and I was honestly more worried about checks for Mega Metagross at the time.

 

[Victorious B.I.G.]

Imagine you see a Mega-Mence on the opponent's team. You start out with a bulky pokemon that can OHKO megamence, and aromatisse, who cannot be taunted and cannot be ohkoed by MegaMence (see calcs above). If he chooses to double target the aromatisse, mega-mence is dead cause your bulky attacker lived and ohkoed it. If he chooses not to double target, then trick room is set up. The momentum is in the t-room team's favor both ways.

And someone would lead mence against trick room because???? They'd just lead TR checks.

EDIT: People who ladder without TR checks be like "yo why don't I win games?"

 

[SpaceBass]

What people run on the bottom of the ladder should not be influential on a mon's potential brokenness or not since mons like scarf greninja, non prankster whimsi, will never be used by any competent player

I was actually at like 50th place on the ladder when I was encountering these things, and the people using them were around 1300/1400. Its not the fact that the low ladder uses bad shit, because it does, its the fact that people who I normally peg as good players on the ladder, have been using some weird shit, that when I asked, was being used to account for mence.

I'm still not sure of my stance but its not just the low ladder over preparing.

 

[Empress]

Leading with Salamence isn't as amazing of an option as you might think because it will almost certainly not be able to keep up a sweep for the entire game. As long as you don't keep throwing Pokemon that can OHKO Salamence, you can take it and its redirecting partner out without losing many Pokemon (which likely won't even be Megas). If you can KO your opponent's Mega and another Pokemon for just 2 of your own, that's an advantage in my book.



Why are we switching Pokemon in after it already has the DD up? Our opponent would need to have us do basically nothing the first turn and then switch the second. The possible 2HKO's without the DD are much better points. As for Double Edge, Salamence sacrifices a good chunk of its bulk every time it uses it thanks to the recoil. Things like 4 SpAtk Suicune's Ice Beam will OHKO Salamence even with minimum damage roles on both attacks.

Gyarados can also serve as a good check to physical Mega Mence.
252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Gyarados: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- 3HKO with Sitrus Berry
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Gyarados: 138-163 (35 - 41.3%) -- 4HKO with Sitrus Berry
0 Atk Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 180-216 (54.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So thanks to Intimidate and Sitrus Berry, Gyarados can come in on either a Return or a DD and proceed to 2HKO physical Salamence before it can KO back. With Double-Edge, Salamence can come out on top, but the residual damage from the recoil means it'll kill itself at the same time as Gyarados. And as far as this being a specialized check and thus showing that Mega Mence is over centralizing, this is just one move on a set that's on the Smogdex, which leaves plenty of room for things like Taunt that has great utility.

As for stacking Mega Mence checks it isn't hard to do at all. Looking at some of my recent teams, they have 3-4 Mega Mence checks and only 1-2 of them are actually weak to Ground, meaning just using Earthquake or Landorus-T won't be able to break them down. 2 of these teams were made before the suspect test even began, and I was honestly more worried about checks for Mega Metagross at the time.

In terms of leading with Salamence and its partner, it's the most reliable way to ensure that the two can come in safely. While you are accurate in saying that Mence will likely not be able to sweep the entire game, not to mention Team Preview, leading with it isn't as matchup dependent as switching the two in mid-battle. As Electrolyte stated, heavy offensive pressure can prevent Salamence and its partner from switching in, so provided the foe has that, leading is the way to go. Also, aside from spread damage moves, you'll be all but guaranteed to get a DD up.

Also, I need to clarify the second point- I meant FREE switches. Once Mega Mence gets a kill, which with its bulk and offense is quite easy to do, I tried to show that not even defensive Pokemon can benefit from the free switch. Also, 4 SpA Suicune cannot OHKO Mega Mence. Well, it can if Mence runs a -SpD nature, but most Mega Mence don't go mixed (as far as I have seen), and thus use a -SpA nature.
4 SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 260-308 (78.5 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Moreover, even though Mence may only net two kills at most, it should be able to weaken anything you might use to check it, so even though the Mence player will be down their Mega, you're also playing at essentially 3.5 mons. I personally would rather have 4 fresh mons than 3 fresh mons and 1 weakened one, even if one of the 3 fresh mons is a Mega. It's also likely that Mence's partner goes down in the same turn as Mence gets a kill, so sending the Mence player can send in a check/counter to the opposing check/counter. Think: Electric-type vs. Gyarados. It's clear that Mence needs a lot of support to function, but it is easy to support with type synergy.

The point about Gyarados is a very good one, though. Thank you for informing me of a Mence check that isn't Ground weak. Indeed, after Mence nets its two kills early in the game, you can switch in your Gyarados to take it out- provided you don't kill Mence's redirecting partner in the same turn as it kills your mons.

 

[Victorious B.I.G.]

I was actually at like 50th place on the ladder when I was encountering these things, and the people using them were around 1300/1400. Its not the fact that the low ladder uses bad shit, because it does, its the fact that people who I normally peg as good players on the ladder, have been using some weird shit, that when I asked, was being used to account for mence.

I'm still not sure of my stance but its not just the low ladder over preparing.

The whole ladder is low ladder (except during suspect tests)

 

[Haruno]

I was actually at like 50th place on the ladder when I was encountering these things, and the people using them were around 1300/1400. Its not the fact that the low ladder uses bad shit, because it does, its the fact that people who I normally peg as good players on the ladder, have been using some weird shit, that when I asked, was being used to account for mence.

I'm still not sure of my stance but its not just the low ladder over preparing.

That's still low ladder and in the 29 games I played on current ladder here's my analysis

20 games were won outright with bunny + mew lead
Qsns x3 was another three games
Ladder randoms which were prolly on an alt made the last 4 games they were still easy and just took slightly more effort than bunny + mew lead.
1 loss was due to scarf attract
1 loss was due to a quadruple crit from specs Draco Latios.

So er wut, ladder is utter shit from the bottom all the way to the top.

And 1300-1400 are still random low ladder players as far as I'm concerned and what ladder heroes use should not be reflective of a mons threat level or whatnot. You will not see any decent player such as lolk, pwne, kyle, among other nigs run such bad sets such as infiltrator whimsicott with a sash or scarf greninja.

Why are we switching Pokemon in after it already has the DD up? Our opponent would need to have us do basically nothing the first turn and then switch the second. The possible 2HKO's without the DD are much better points. As for Double Edge, Salamence sacrifices a good chunk of its bulk every time it uses it thanks to the recoil. Things like 4 SpAtk Suicune's Ice Beam will OHKO Salamence even with minimum damage roles on both attacks.

Gyarados can also serve as a good check to physical Mega Mence.
252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Gyarados: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- 3HKO with Sitrus Berry
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Gyarados: 138-163 (35 - 41.3%) -- 4HKO with Sitrus Berry
0 Atk Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 180-216 (54.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So thanks to Intimidate and Sitrus Berry, Gyarados can come in on either a Return or a DD and proceed to 2HKO physical Salamence before it can KO back. With Double-Edge, Salamence can come out on top, but the residual damage from the recoil means it'll kill itself at the same time as Gyarados. And as far as this being a specialized check and thus showing that Mega Mence is over centralizing, this is just one move on a set that's on the Smogdex, which leaves plenty of room for things like Taunt that has great utility.

As for stacking Mega Mence checks it isn't hard to do at all. Looking at some of my recent teams, they have 3-4 Mega Mence checks and only 1-2 of them are actually weak to Ground, meaning just using Earthquake or Landorus-T won't be able to break them down. 2 of these teams were made before the suspect test even began, and I was honestly more worried about checks for Mega Metagross at the time.

Suicune doesn't ohko with ice beam. Please don't make unfounded claims lol.

That seems like some random ev spread which means gyarados will have a lovely combination of being slow + weak in addition to the whole fucked by follow me/rage powder.

Also stacking 3-4 mence checks is vague as fuck and doesn't actually give insight on what these supposed checks are. I like how you mention ONLY 2 mons weak to ground though with your only example listed (gyarados) being weak to rock and take a guess what common coverage move is used alongside earthquake?

 

[Bughouse]

A PSA for users who say including team support is an unreliable argument. This isn't singles.

If we were to go about this using the traditional requirements that singles metagames used, I would absolutely understand not suspecting anything. Indeed, very little can truly singlehandedly provided too much power or support in the Doubles metagame to become individually broken. So I don't think that's a particularly useful angle to look at things. Just because no single Pokemon has proven to be uncounterable or uncheckable does not mean the metagame is perfectly balanced. Indeed, many of the best methods to check or counter a foe can be played around. As an example, you might choose to rely on Stone Edge to beat Charizard-Y, expecting Wide Guard support, only to instead be facing Rage Powder Amoonguss, wishing you had Rock Slide instead. You may be decently equipped to deal with Heatran, but utterly helpless against one that has been Skill Swapped Levitate (sorry if that's too soon.)

Doubles is a metagame all about your team's Pokemon supporting one another to overcome your opponent. There's no such thing as singlehandedly winning a match, so relying on a perspective based in singles seems counterintuitive.

A better standard in my opinion is if a Pokemon performs substantially better than its potential replacements given the same amount of support from teammates or if a Pokemon supports its teammates substantially better than any other supporters could. Now, this isn't necessarily grounds for being suspected. It ultimately comes down to a judgment call of when that performance is just too good to ignore.

By this standard, I personally view Kangaskhanite as worthy of being suspected. While not super obviously broken in either regard, Kangaskhanite toes the line on both. Mega Kangaskhan is the best priority user in the tier, boasting both Fake Out (which can even hit Ghosts prior to Mega Evolving) and Sucker Punch off of quite high power. These attributes can be seen as providing deadly team support, such as when it is used as a lead in combination with Deoxys-A. And unlike its competitors in the priority support realm, Mega Kangaskhan is also gifted with hefty bulk after Mega Evolving, along with a way to Swords Dance and actually sweep. Power-Up Punch even enables Mega Kangaskhan to shrug off Intimidates from Landorus-T & co. While it can't sweep the same way it could in OU, Mega Kangaskhan is not truly vulnerable in Doubles either, despite facing two opponents, since it can benefit greatly from Follow Me, among other support moves. For me, the ability to use a single set that simultaneously provides very strong team support while also posing a win-condition threat pushes the boundaries a little too much for my taste. It can be played around, but not easily and not without having a somewhat distorting effect on the metagame.

That's what I said in XY suspect 1, while nominating Kangaskhanite for a suspect. It is undoubtedly true that Mega Salamence is the single best Pokemon in the tier, when given proper support, and is hella good even on its own. This is a much clearer case than Mega Kangaskhan for many reasons, and it deserves to be banned.

 

[SpaceBass]

Haruno the meta is more than just the people that play in high level tours. The point is that the majority of play takes place on the ladder, and because the dubs ladder really isn't that diverse to start with, you will eventually fight low ladder shit when high up the ladder.

I follow Widdlys games and he's pretty much always in the top 10, even before the ladder reset, and even when ranked #1 I still see mono fire and shit like that. My point is that the ladder has its fair share of good players, and just because you don't consider them good, doesn't mean they're bad.

I'm starting to lean more towards banning now, after playing with mence for a while it just creates so much room for error.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogondoublescurrent-191434424

The above replay was against a random ladder player, I have no gauge of their skill level outside of this game but that is besides the point I'm trying to make. The point is, I was paying about 30% attention, making awful plays left and right, and mence still blew a fucking hole in the guys team to the point where getting frozen twice didn't even matter. I managed a double switch in to mence and rachi, which I even made the wrong decision on what to swap for what and took an Ice Punch from Mega Swamp on mence, which thanks to intimidate, lived at 1%. It was probably a roll but even then that's impressive.

This has happened in plenty of games, but this one I played particularly shit and still managed to win even with the hax being thrown at me

 

[Haruno]

Haruno the meta is more than just the people that play in high level tours. The point is that the majority of play takes place on the ladder, and because the dubs ladder really isn't that diverse to start with, you will eventually fight low ladder shit when high up the ladder.

the ladder is irrelevant especially when used by trash players.

Mega Ray was not broken when used by shit players
Mega mence in Ou was not broken when used by trash players
Mega Mawile in Ou was not broken when used by trash players

Rinse repeat. Ladder heroes will suck with everything so that's not really that relevant. No one in any suspect to date has mentioned broken mons when used in lower battles because it shows next to nothing. That is why previous and the current suspect will only use games from top of the ladder (doesn't work for doubles due to how few if any relevant games there are) or high level games, most of which ladder isn't. Case and point, mons being put on the chopping block's banworthyness is only considered when used by competent players.

Unfortunately I don't have a picture but a good example of how a casual plays is dazzling gleam/moonblast/geomancy/flash cannon xern so uh whatv

 

[SpaceBass]

So essentially what you are saying is, people that only play on ladder are shit regardless of how good they actually are because they aren't someone you consider good, and/or don't play in 'muh SPL'. Guna leave this here because I don't want to derail the thread.

The ladder players actually are relevant in this suspect test because its incredibly easy to get 2200 COIL, so anyone with half decent reasoning skills and enough time to play 30-40 battles can influence the decision.

Again, the point of that battle was not to say that mence is broken because that guy is good. I don't know how good he is, we only played 1 game. The point of the replay was, that I played awful, was multi tasking, making shit plays and still won through the hax he was throwing at me because mence OHKO'd mega swampert, hydreigon and manectric on consecutive turns.

All I'm trying to highlight is that I was very anti-ban based on my views from fighting mence, but after using it more I see both sides and will take the full suspect test time frame to make my decision.

 

[Haruno]

So essentially what you are saying is, people that only play on ladder are shit regardless of how good they actually are because they aren't someone you consider good, and/or don't play in 'muh SPL'. Guna leave this here because I don't want to derail the thread.

The ladder players actually are relevant in this suspect test because its incredibly easy to get 2200 COIL, so anyone with half decent reasoning skills and enough time to play 30-40 battles can influence the decision.

Again, the point of that battle was not to say that mence is broken because that guy is good. I don't know how good he is, we only played 1 game. The point of the replay was, that I played awful, was multi tasking, making shit plays and still won through the hax he was throwing at me because mence OHKO'd mega swampert, hydreigon and manectric on consecutive turns.

All I'm trying to highlight is that I was very anti-ban based on my views from fighting mence, but after using it more I see both sides and will take the full suspect test time frame to make my decision.

yes. Is that a problem? The few that are actually good and exclusively ladder are going to be completely drowned out by those that don't know shit that somehow managed to make reqs.

Hint by your own admission getting 2200 coil is easy, not to mention i linked one of the most braindead teams to use on the ladder that essentially curbstomps it. So pretty much anyone can go on ladder and make reqs with minimum effort. Does this show that they have competence or proper knowledge of the doubles metagame? No it doesn't. Does it show that they know about mega mence and how big a threat it is due to ladder? No it doesn't as well since judging from my personal experience and other players that made reqs, the current smogon doubles ladder has little/none and people have gone making reqs on that ladder without seeing a single mega mence. So yes it is very safe for me to say that ladder is a shit indicator. If you don't believe me well then refer to the most recent suspect held on smogon http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ubers-gengarite-suspect-alt-confirmation-thread.3513156/ where around 250+ people managed to hit the ladder reqs and a good 3/5 of them at the least knew next to nothing about the metagame or the current suspect. This won't differ much in doubles, I can assure you of that.

I didn't even watch the replay since I assume it wasn't that good, though if your opp was using good as fuck mons like manectric (non mega) then I'm starting to doubt them already since it's frankly shit.

So like I said, judging your opinion based on what you see on ladder isn't reliable at all since the majority of the players there are shit. Hell you could give ladder players mega ray/krom/ho oh/kyogre or other broke as fuck mons and they'd probably still lose to any competent doubles player due to them lacking knowledge on how to use them. Hence why I'm saying how only high level games (not necessarily tournament ones) should be what makes or breaks your viewpoint and not some laddertards running it.

 

[SpaceBass]

My only objection was that you seemed to imply that I had not myself fought any decent players. I am not arguing with you that the ladder is shit. I'm arguing that decent players do play on there. Will refrain from going into the judging of a replay without even watching it. Again, it was to highlight mences abilty to completely negate bad plays and hax on my part to salvage an otherwise un-winnable game, a game that helped sway my opinion of the mon. Which is why I posted it in the first place. This thread is to share opinions on mence and that game had a great effect on my opinion.

The only thing I really wanted to say from the whole thing is that the people that play for fun outnumber the people that play for tours, and this suspect test affects everyone, not just good players.

The majority of play takes place on the ladder, and more people ladder than play in tours. Therefore I'm of the opinion that the ladder should be taken into consideration and maybe not bash players that maybe just haven't learnt the meta yet.

I'm going to stop now as I don't want this thread to become centred around calling the ladder shit. I'd appreciate if we left it here.

 

[tehy]

My only objection was that you seemed to imply that I had not myself fought any decent players. I am not arguing with you that the ladder is shit. I'm arguing that decent players do play on there.

Those sound like fairly contradictory points.

Even though there are some, most of your battles won't be with them, so yea.

Will refrain from going into the judging of a replay without even watching it.

>manectric

Again, it was to highlight mences abilty to completely negate bad plays and hax on my part to salvage an otherwise un-winnable game, a game that helped sway my opinion of the mon.

What does that even mean? How do you know some other mon couldn't save you? Espc. If you ditched rachi.

If your opp. didn't have lolmanectric, maybe you would've lost?

Which is why I posted it in the first place. This thread is to share opinions on mence and that game had a great effect on my opinion.

The only thing I really wanted to say from the whole thing that the people that play for fun outnumber the people that play for tours, and this suspect test affects everyone, not just good players.

Irrelevant, if its broken its broken, low ladder players dk tho

The majority of play takes place on the ladder, and more people ladder than play in tours. Therefore I'm of the opinion that the ladder should be taken into consideration and maybe not bash players that maybe just haven't learnt the meta yet.

More data from flawed sources, who cares? Players who havent learned the meta, sorry to bash but they're not relevant.

I'm going to stop now as I don't want this thread to become centred around calling the ladder shit. I'd appreciate if we left it here.

Edit: cause you couldnt replace rachi with an actual attacking mon right?

 

[SpaceBass]

What it means, is that that game was over for me had I not had mega mence. If I had gone with kang, it wouldn't have got the KOs on both mega swamp and hydreigon. The guy was using a rain team. Sash manectric is a legit choice for a fast electric type on a rain team whose mega slot is taken up by swampert. It provides lightning rod support and is fast and powerful. There was 0 other mega that would have won me the game in that situation other than salamence. Your point about dropping jirachi is baseless because had I not had follow me support, swampert, hydreigon and manectric would have shat all over whatever mega I had chosen because I wouldn't have been able to redirect.

Most of the game is noobs playing on the ladder. We were all noobs at one point, and I don't think calling people that might be the ones discussing things in the next suspect thread irrelevant is fair. This game isn't just for experienced players.