It's nowhere close to a complete stop. Unless Skarmory runs counter, it flat out loses to both Pokemon, since it is slower and fails to OHKO with Brave Bird, whilst being 2HKOed by both Pokemon. If it does run counter, the best it can do is catch Mega Lop and Gallade off guard, since they can simply sub or dance/ PUP again to OHKO. It can't even do this if rocks are up, as Mega Gallade can KO with a single SD boost. On top of that, it really does not want to switch in on Mega Gallade's knock off because it can render it liable to being trapped by Magnezone. If all you have on your team for Mega Lop/ Mega Gallade is Skarmory, you're in trouble, plain and simple.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
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Saying that it's "nowhere close to a complete stop" is not true at all. Its set dependant, the standard HJK, return, fake out and Hwish set is completely walled. PuP, not so much, but doing 85% to a lopunny with Brave Bird isnt "nowhere close to a complete stop".
Oh, also it checks gallade as +2 CC wont kill and brave bird will kill when Gallade's defenses drop
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Ok I am really bothered by alot of the posts I have seen from mega swampert and in particular mega camerupt so I will try and remain as objective as possible(lol after reading this I failed to be even kind of objective XD) as I give reasons why swampert should stay where he is at and camerupt should drop to like C.
Swampert(Mega)
People keep arguing for this guy because they used him on a rain team and destroyed some unprepared offensive teams. And then when people argue against them they say "you just havent used him right so you cant say anything". Well the real case is those people probably have used him and just battle competent players or just anybody using balance/defensive teams. Here is the deal, rain always has and always will be INCREDIBLE at taking out offense, It would be truly an upset if a standard offensive team was able to beat a rain team because rain teams abuse swift swim, and they get to do so with not only boosting moves but items(both of which mega swampert doesnt have). So if you just destroyed an offensive team with swampert the odds are you would have done the same exact thing with kabutops, or any other rain abuser. My main point is that mega swampert brings nothing new to the table for rain teams, sure he is immune to paralysis which is admittedly handy, and he has decent bulk but both of those are not traits that rain sweepers are even looking for. I mean I would love for someone to seriously say that swampert is the best way for a rain team to use their mega slot, because thats just not true. I feel like some of you guys only use opportunity cost when it comes to mons you dont like, like my poor charizard-x, but a +2 kabutops is substantially better in just about everyway from swampert and then you can use a stallbreaking mega like heracross to help patch up your match up against stall. And dont say that kabutops needs a free turn to get to +2 because swampert also needs a free turn because he is slow as piss before he megas in rain, just because kabutops can actually take advantage of a free turn while mega swampert cant shouldnt be a point for mega swampert. A positive thing that swampert has is he can use rain dance on his own and be some pseudo rain core all in one mon, but at that point why would you not just use mega metagross? Which is faster I think at +2? dont quote me on that, and has moves that are very good at cleaning up balance and offensive teams alike. If I could sum this up I would say swampert deserves to stay where he is in B+, because the role he fills can be filled by other non mega rain sweepers that would then allow rain teams to use megas to actually bring something new in like the ability break stall teams like heracross or something.
Camerupt (Mega)
So let me start by saying I am not going to even discuss his ability to perform on trick room teams, if that is your main argument for this thing then you are basically arguing for him to drop to C rank(just like me!). I am truly amazed and confused as to anybody wanting to move mega camerupt up, I mean we are dropping mons out of S rank because of opportunity cost, but then completely ignoring it when ranking camerupt? I dont understand. I just dont see how camerupt is in anyway better than gardevoir, medicham, mega garchomp, mega heracross, charizard-y, or even non mega mons like landorus-i. All of these mons are much better wallbreakers and they all do it so well because they can outspeed the walls they are breaking and even use utility moves sometimes like taunt. Mega camerupt might be the only mon that is considered a wall breaker that is literally deadweight against stall, I mean stall can switch into camerupt for days, DAYS! Like I could go on and on but what it seems to come down are even people who want camerupt to move up all start their argument assuming camerupt was able to get in safely, well what about greninja getting in safely? greninja is going to get a kill if he gets in safely and if camerupt gets in safely he is going to damage one thing and then get forced out. Greninja is uber you say? Ok how about gardevoir with a free turn? what is switching in to gardevoir on offense or anything for that matter besides random ass mons like bronzong and jirachi? The point is that just because camerupt has decent synergy on balance cores of FWG people are shitting themselves, or for his ability to take on thundurus and iirc thundurus can like 2-3hko him with focus blast, which is unreliable or w/e but still. I feel like I am doing a poor job arguing for him to drop, but I feel like thats because there are such bad arguments for him to move up, like "resitant to volt-turn" wtf is that? he isnt switching into the most common volt switcher in the tier, and if he switches into u-turn he is probably taking rocks damage, chip damage from u-turn, and now is threatened out because he is threatened out by fkn everything. But again this just seems like people are choosing to ignore opportunity cost, and ignore megas that have so many more functions. Like even metagross, I know they perform different roles or w/e but why would you want to use mega camerupt over metagross? I mean what switches into metagross? a hell of a lot less than what switches into camerupt thats for sure. At the end of the day I guess I just really dont even see one viable reason for camerupt to be anywhere in the B rank, and feel his "niche" in OU is just irrelevant and ineffective. He basically requires an insane amount of team support as it has to be able to come in freely, with hazards off the field, and have good switchins to most the meta because camerupt is threatened out by everything, just to even do his job once or twice, seems like a truly ass pokemon and even if I didnt do the best job explaining why he should be C(something) rank, just think about it? Would you ever want camerupt on your team if you were seriously teambulding? The answer is no for me, and I dont think a new player should come on to this site and think camerupt is worth using at all.
If you think this post was long, wait until I argue for sharpedo ;)
tl;dr Swampert is good but brings nothing new to a physical rain sweeper(I am fine with him in A- I guess, but think B+ is better) and camerupt is complete bootycheeks that deserves to be C rank
Edit: I also agree with all changes Albacore proposed. There are some rising stars in defensive pokemon and its time for them to get recognized for it.
Swampert(Mega)
People keep arguing for this guy because they used him on a rain team and destroyed some unprepared offensive teams. And then when people argue against them they say "you just havent used him right so you cant say anything". Well the real case is those people probably have used him and just battle competent players or just anybody using balance/defensive teams. Here is the deal, rain always has and always will be INCREDIBLE at taking out offense, It would be truly an upset if a standard offensive team was able to beat a rain team because rain teams abuse swift swim, and they get to do so with not only boosting moves but items(both of which mega swampert doesnt have). So if you just destroyed an offensive team with swampert the odds are you would have done the same exact thing with kabutops, or any other rain abuser. My main point is that mega swampert brings nothing new to the table for rain teams, sure he is immune to paralysis which is admittedly handy, and he has decent bulk but both of those are not traits that rain sweepers are even looking for. I mean I would love for someone to seriously say that swampert is the best way for a rain team to use their mega slot, because thats just not true. I feel like some of you guys only use opportunity cost when it comes to mons you dont like, like my poor charizard-x, but a +2 kabutops is substantially better in just about everyway from swampert and then you can use a stallbreaking mega like heracross to help patch up your match up against stall. And dont say that kabutops needs a free turn to get to +2 because swampert also needs a free turn because he is slow as piss before he megas in rain, just because kabutops can actually take advantage of a free turn while mega swampert cant shouldnt be a point for mega swampert. A positive thing that swampert has is he can use rain dance on his own and be some pseudo rain core all in one mon, but at that point why would you not just use mega metagross? Which is faster I think at +2? dont quote me on that, and has moves that are very good at cleaning up balance and offensive teams alike. If I could sum this up I would say swampert deserves to stay where he is in B+, because the role he fills can be filled by other non mega rain sweepers that would then allow rain teams to use megas to actually bring something new in like the ability break stall teams like heracross or something.
Camerupt (Mega)
So let me start by saying I am not going to even discuss his ability to perform on trick room teams, if that is your main argument for this thing then you are basically arguing for him to drop to C rank(just like me!). I am truly amazed and confused as to anybody wanting to move mega camerupt up, I mean we are dropping mons out of S rank because of opportunity cost, but then completely ignoring it when ranking camerupt? I dont understand. I just dont see how camerupt is in anyway better than gardevoir, medicham, mega garchomp, mega heracross, charizard-y, or even non mega mons like landorus-i. All of these mons are much better wallbreakers and they all do it so well because they can outspeed the walls they are breaking and even use utility moves sometimes like taunt. Mega camerupt might be the only mon that is considered a wall breaker that is literally deadweight against stall, I mean stall can switch into camerupt for days, DAYS! Like I could go on and on but what it seems to come down are even people who want camerupt to move up all start their argument assuming camerupt was able to get in safely, well what about greninja getting in safely? greninja is going to get a kill if he gets in safely and if camerupt gets in safely he is going to damage one thing and then get forced out. Greninja is uber you say? Ok how about gardevoir with a free turn? what is switching in to gardevoir on offense or anything for that matter besides random ass mons like bronzong and jirachi? The point is that just because camerupt has decent synergy on balance cores of FWG people are shitting themselves, or for his ability to take on thundurus and iirc thundurus can like 2-3hko him with focus blast, which is unreliable or w/e but still. I feel like I am doing a poor job arguing for him to drop, but I feel like thats because there are such bad arguments for him to move up, like "resitant to volt-turn" wtf is that? he isnt switching into the most common volt switcher in the tier, and if he switches into u-turn he is probably taking rocks damage, chip damage from u-turn, and now is threatened out because he is threatened out by fkn everything. But again this just seems like people are choosing to ignore opportunity cost, and ignore megas that have so many more functions. Like even metagross, I know they perform different roles or w/e but why would you want to use mega camerupt over metagross? I mean what switches into metagross? a hell of a lot less than what switches into camerupt thats for sure. At the end of the day I guess I just really dont even see one viable reason for camerupt to be anywhere in the B rank, and feel his "niche" in OU is just irrelevant and ineffective. He basically requires an insane amount of team support as it has to be able to come in freely, with hazards off the field, and have good switchins to most the meta because camerupt is threatened out by everything, just to even do his job once or twice, seems like a truly ass pokemon and even if I didnt do the best job explaining why he should be C(something) rank, just think about it? Would you ever want camerupt on your team if you were seriously teambulding? The answer is no for me, and I dont think a new player should come on to this site and think camerupt is worth using at all.
If you think this post was long, wait until I argue for sharpedo ;)
tl;dr Swampert is good but brings nothing new to a physical rain sweeper(I am fine with him in A- I guess, but think B+ is better) and camerupt is complete bootycheeks that deserves to be C rank
Edit: I also agree with all changes Albacore proposed. There are some rising stars in defensive pokemon and its time for them to get recognized for it.
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okay here are the changes I agree with :
- Mega-Beedrill for B+, it does require support and is pretty ineffective against stall and to some extent balance but it can be a nightmare for offense to face as long as rocks aren't up. Almost nothing outspeeds it and scarfers aren't really an argument because Protect makes them an absolute joke to play around. It's also an incredible partner to Magnezone for obvious reasons. Really the main thing stopping it from being A- is the fact that rocks being up kinda stops it from doing anything so a hazard remover is absolutely required, even more so than for the likes of Talonflame and YZard.
-Celebi for A-, very good defensive Pokemon, but what makes this A- imo is the offensive LO set which is just a fantastic lure for a few Steel-types such as Heatran and Bisharp. Great synergy with a bunch of megas, bunch of support options, defenitely on par with Gliscor and possibly Jirachi too.
-Skarmory for A-, the metagame is pretty fast and physically orientated atm which really benefits Skarmory, although the fact that Magnezone is everywhere is pretty problematic for it, it still beats a large portion of the metagame and definitely benefits from the decline of YZard/Lando-I/Keldeo and from the popularity of Loppuny, Metagross, Beedrill and DD Altaria.
-Chesnaught for B+, same boat as Skarmory really, it enjoys the physical meta, it's one of Stall's best answers to sub/taunt DD Gyara and Crawdaunt, provides great support in Spikes, can even choose to run Super Fang which is hard to fit but really neat if you can. It has trouble with a few popular Pokemon but it walls what it needs to wall really well and it's definitely better in ORAS than it used to be.
other changes I'm less sure about but I think need to be discussed:
-Chansey for A- stall is good now and therefore so is Chansey, but it's still the most passive thing ever, gets worn down extremely easily, doesn't deal with Greninja as well as it used to, and most special attackers being used atm are not that powerful and therefore you don't really need a ridiculous special wall to handle them for the most part, so I'm really not sure about this one.
-Hippowdon for A- This thing is pretty good if you want an okay check to a large portion of the meta, instead of running Skarmory or Rhyperior and lose to either SD Talonflame or Excadrill you can cover both of these decently in one slot. Honestly I would either go fully phys def or fully SpD in this meta : phys def lets you beat XZard, Metagross and MPinsir and while SpD takes on stuff like Gengar, Diancie, Manectric and YZard to a lesser extent. As a catch-all answer to multiple threats at once it's pretty slid, I don't know if it's A- material but it really benefits from the far less wallbreaky metagame we have going on atm.
-Mandibuzz to B-/C+ I kinda want to see this being discussed because I honestly have no idea what it does in this metagame. I guess it kinda deals with a few new megas such as Sceptile, Metragoss and Lopunny? But it's still a very poor defogger and can't really beat anything if rocks are up, gets laughed at by stall because lol Sableye, it's setup fodder for Altaria and Diancie, and it doesn't beat anything particularly hard to wall besides I guess Gengar (who can actually beat it if rocks are up). If I'm missing something then please feel free to defend it but right now I just don't see it in B.
-Zapdos to B-/C+ This thing was kinda good when Mence was around but now it's not that great. Pinsir is a lot less common now, and Talon runs Jolly SD nowadays which can KO after rocks so it's not a great stop to that either. Not a very good Defogger, doesn't beat much relevant stuff besides, once again, Sceptile, Lopunny and Metagross. But most of the time I would just run Skarmory which deals with two of these far more convincingly. Otherwise Altaria, Sableye, Gallade all set up on it, and it doesn't really have the bulk to wall with threats that well. Once again, I might be missing something here so please discuss this one.
also Camerupt and Crawdaunt is fine where they are, Breloom might move up I guess but I'm really not sure (I've actually been trying out a choice band set which is way better than it sounds given how much damage it deals to common swithcins), Quag moving up makes perfect logical sense but I feel like it was a bit overvalued in B in the first place.
- Mega-Beedrill for B+, it does require support and is pretty ineffective against stall and to some extent balance but it can be a nightmare for offense to face as long as rocks aren't up. Almost nothing outspeeds it and scarfers aren't really an argument because Protect makes them an absolute joke to play around. It's also an incredible partner to Magnezone for obvious reasons. Really the main thing stopping it from being A- is the fact that rocks being up kinda stops it from doing anything so a hazard remover is absolutely required, even more so than for the likes of Talonflame and YZard.
-Celebi for A-, very good defensive Pokemon, but what makes this A- imo is the offensive LO set which is just a fantastic lure for a few Steel-types such as Heatran and Bisharp. Great synergy with a bunch of megas, bunch of support options, defenitely on par with Gliscor and possibly Jirachi too.
-Skarmory for A-, the metagame is pretty fast and physically orientated atm which really benefits Skarmory, although the fact that Magnezone is everywhere is pretty problematic for it, it still beats a large portion of the metagame and definitely benefits from the decline of YZard/Lando-I/Keldeo and from the popularity of Loppuny, Metagross, Beedrill and DD Altaria.
-Chesnaught for B+, same boat as Skarmory really, it enjoys the physical meta, it's one of Stall's best answers to sub/taunt DD Gyara and Crawdaunt, provides great support in Spikes, can even choose to run Super Fang which is hard to fit but really neat if you can. It has trouble with a few popular Pokemon but it walls what it needs to wall really well and it's definitely better in ORAS than it used to be.
other changes I'm less sure about but I think need to be discussed:
-Chansey for A- stall is good now and therefore so is Chansey, but it's still the most passive thing ever, gets worn down extremely easily, doesn't deal with Greninja as well as it used to, and most special attackers being used atm are not that powerful and therefore you don't really need a ridiculous special wall to handle them for the most part, so I'm really not sure about this one.
-Hippowdon for A- This thing is pretty good if you want an okay check to a large portion of the meta, instead of running Skarmory or Rhyperior and lose to either SD Talonflame or Excadrill you can cover both of these decently in one slot. Honestly I would either go fully phys def or fully SpD in this meta : phys def lets you beat XZard, Metagross and MPinsir and while SpD takes on stuff like Gengar, Diancie, Manectric and YZard to a lesser extent. As a catch-all answer to multiple threats at once it's pretty slid, I don't know if it's A- material but it really benefits from the far less wallbreaky metagame we have going on atm.
-Mandibuzz to B-/C+ I kinda want to see this being discussed because I honestly have no idea what it does in this metagame. I guess it kinda deals with a few new megas such as Sceptile, Metragoss and Lopunny? But it's still a very poor defogger and can't really beat anything if rocks are up, gets laughed at by stall because lol Sableye, it's setup fodder for Altaria and Diancie, and it doesn't beat anything particularly hard to wall besides I guess Gengar (who can actually beat it if rocks are up). If I'm missing something then please feel free to defend it but right now I just don't see it in B.
-Zapdos to B-/C+ This thing was kinda good when Mence was around but now it's not that great. Pinsir is a lot less common now, and Talon runs Jolly SD nowadays which can KO after rocks so it's not a great stop to that either. Not a very good Defogger, doesn't beat much relevant stuff besides, once again, Sceptile, Lopunny and Metagross. But most of the time I would just run Skarmory which deals with two of these far more convincingly. Otherwise Altaria, Sableye, Gallade all set up on it, and it doesn't really have the bulk to wall with threats that well. Once again, I might be missing something here so please discuss this one.
also Camerupt and Crawdaunt is fine where they are, Breloom might move up I guess but I'm really not sure (I've actually been trying out a choice band set which is way better than it sounds given how much damage it deals to common swithcins), Quag moving up makes perfect logical sense but I feel like it was a bit overvalued in B in the first place.
Mega Beedrill is still effective against stall because it provides the utility its partners want with U-Turn for momentum into set up sweepers such as SD Diggersby and Knock Off for item removal. Just thought I would point that aspect of M-Beedrill out since being good against a playstyle doesn't necessarily mean you threaten it in a 1v1 scenario.
Celebi I've been hearing some better reasonings for a move up but I'll have to wait until we're near update time to have a definitive opinion on it.
Stall being a bit better doesn't necessarily equate to Chansey being better. Still has the same issues I felt it always had in being really passive and just susceptible to the offensive metagame and is set up fodder against a lot of stuff like M-Sableye and M-Gallade.
Can't really speak on Hippowdon being better cause I just don't see it. I think it finds its way on certain defensive and balanced builds well but it's not exactly that fantastic and it's sort of a passive rock setter that doesn't even threaten stall what so ever while not being a huge concern for your average team builds anyways.
I want to see Mandibuzz drop to C+ because it's just a subpar defogger that has niche values in checking poorly played M-Metagross, Gengar, and Foul Play to threaten a couple of set up sweepers such as Sd Bisharp with some useful tools in Taunt, Roost for recovery, and Whirlwind just being a few. But yeah everything else you mentioned are some various issues besides the fact Thundurus and Greninja is so common on offensive teams and it literally just falls over to sheer offensive pressure. B- would be generous for Mandibuzz at this point and C+ is a good place for it.
No real opinion on Zapdos yet. M-Salamence is gone so I guess that reduces its viability but M-Sala meta was literal garbage so hard to justify rankings based off of that.
+2 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 265-313 (79.3 - 93.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Actually yes. Yes, it can kill.
As for Mega Lopunny, part of the reason it's A+ rank is because there is no standard set. A Pokemon cannot be a 'complete stop' to another unless it is able to completely stop it - 'set dependence', by definition, means the term 'complete stop' simply does not apply.
Okay, since Zapdos was brought up, I guess I'll post about it because I have used it a bit and have a strong opinion on it.
I honestly don't like Zapdos much at all for a few reasons. Firstly is the fact that Zapdos, to do well defensively, is extremely reliant on its typing to actually try to wall something. This is because despite what it may seem, Zapdos actually isn't really that bulky. It really doesn't wall much because of its lack of real bulk, and because of such combined with a weakness to Rocks, it's really easy to pressure it to the point where it can't Defog. From my experience, Zapdos due to this flaw can only actually get one opportunity to Defog in each game. Zapdos also doesn't hit that hard with little investment and I don't like how it only has two moveslots, and one has to be STAB. Basically, depending on that last moveslot, Zapdos ends up being bait for some sort of common Pokemon, and the Latis are almost 100% getting a free oppurtunity with Zapdos. It actually also fares poorly against most hazard setters because it doesn't do much to them, and many of the common ones like Landorus-T and Rhyperior can just face it and also gets Rocks up later.
If I'm missing something about Zapdos, feel free to say so. But for all those reasons I've actually been really unimpressed by Zapdos whenever I use it, and I think it should drop if Mandibuzz winds up dropping. If we're considering moving Mandibuzz to C+, then I really don't see how Zapdos is any better.
I honestly don't like Zapdos much at all for a few reasons. Firstly is the fact that Zapdos, to do well defensively, is extremely reliant on its typing to actually try to wall something. This is because despite what it may seem, Zapdos actually isn't really that bulky. It really doesn't wall much because of its lack of real bulk, and because of such combined with a weakness to Rocks, it's really easy to pressure it to the point where it can't Defog. From my experience, Zapdos due to this flaw can only actually get one opportunity to Defog in each game. Zapdos also doesn't hit that hard with little investment and I don't like how it only has two moveslots, and one has to be STAB. Basically, depending on that last moveslot, Zapdos ends up being bait for some sort of common Pokemon, and the Latis are almost 100% getting a free oppurtunity with Zapdos. It actually also fares poorly against most hazard setters because it doesn't do much to them, and many of the common ones like Landorus-T and Rhyperior can just face it and also gets Rocks up later.
If I'm missing something about Zapdos, feel free to say so. But for all those reasons I've actually been really unimpressed by Zapdos whenever I use it, and I think it should drop if Mandibuzz winds up dropping. If we're considering moving Mandibuzz to C+, then I really don't see how Zapdos is any better.
Replies in bold.
I suck at posting, but I really can't be the only one who thinks this is flawed.
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Mandibuzz is actually still decent, the trick is to give it U-Turn so that instead of sometimes forfeiting momentum, it generates it. It then becomes a great bulky pivot that can answer to Gallade, Loppuny, Metagross, Sceptile, Gyara, both Lando forms and most scarcely, counters Zard X (it has to Flare Blitz you since Dragon Claw doesn't even 2HKO most of the time at +1, and Foul + Blitz damage is an OHKO), something that neither Skarm nor Zapdos can dream of doing. Balance teams are where it shines the most, and it's not terrible against stall because of Taunt and U-Turn. B- is fine, but it's certainly better than some of the stuff in C+ imo. I've also found it a much better general wall than Zapdos because Zapdos' bulk is just really lacking, getting destroyed by Ice Punches and Stone Edges where Mandi would have shaken them off and KO'd or forced out the target. Zapdos simply struggles quite massively against anything it doesn't wall through it's typing (which isn't that much, it's like, Pinsir and Hawlucha?). It's still ok, but nothing special, thus it shouldn't be higher than Mandibuzz.
Dunno why you'd wanna raise Skarm when almost any team trying to sweep with something Skarm walls is carrying Magnezone to make it a liability and thus I've seen a pretty big decline in Skarms usage on stall teams.
Dunno why you'd wanna raise Skarm when almost any team trying to sweep with something Skarm walls is carrying Magnezone to make it a liability and thus I've seen a pretty big decline in Skarms usage on stall teams.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Gonna respond, I guess, for the sake of exploud. Started doing it properly, but got bored because it's a pain, so stopped quoting and just responded sequentially.
It's not so much that Camerupt couldn't 2hko these mons; it's the fact that it is doing under 50% to them, while they all have the potential to outspeed and ko that turn (there is very little that wants to switch into these mons either).
Also, blissey is 1hkod by Lopunny. Your point? Clearly, an uninvested, physically bulky offensive mon is not going to take a very strong special attack well.
U-turn is the reason why gen 5 lando was banned lol Def not irrelevant in xy
I think that lando is harder to switch into also (notably because it gets TWO hits on a switchin as opposed to just one). Knock off/u-turn make it super hard to switch into alongside its great coverage.
Porygon2 can recover/toxic stall camerupt. Gardevoir outspeeds. Also, gardevoir 2hkos after rocks, if you want to keep your two arguments consistent. Porygon2 is irrelevant here, anyway, and was simply used as a comparison.
Gard can run shadow ball if it really wanted to. Camerupt has a hard time against latis, blobs, etc. as well. In fact, it has a hard time against the majority of the meta given that it is outsped by everything. It also can't boost its power (and if it could afford to, it would be outsped and ko'd anyway).
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 196-231 (58.6 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Anyway, on the topic of exploud, it may be locked into a move, but it is locked into an absurdly strong and spammable move with no immunities. If you see it, you have to go to something like ttar or you get ko'd, giving ample opportunity for a quick ko with fblast/etc. Anyway, exploud was just for funsies, wouldn't reccomend that outside of trick room either.
I meant that there are a lot of physical threats that can wallbreak better than camerupt can specially.
Clefable beats camerupt because calm mind and outspeeds (lol). Camperupt also has no recovery.
Victini is faster, like 50% stronger, and has better coverage. It is far better than camerupt (also doesn't take up a mega).
terrordave said:
It's not so much that Camerupt couldn't 2hko these mons; it's the fact that it is doing under 50% to them, while they all have the potential to outspeed and ko that turn (there is very little that wants to switch into these mons either).
Also, blissey is 1hkod by Lopunny. Your point? Clearly, an uninvested, physically bulky offensive mon is not going to take a very strong special attack well.
Mega rupt is neutral to rocks, but it is also fully vulnerable to the increasingly popular spikes, but rocks do def suck. I disagree on typing to an extant. Char is immune to ground, and it has a psuedo water neutrality. 4x bug resistance is nice too. That is traded for a large rock weakness, an electric weakness, but edge quake is a thing anyway, and stone edge never hits so choose your battles. You argue camperupt in a trick room setting, and then say that it can't be protect stalled? Char is VERY rarely in for more than a couple of turns anyway. Sun also comes with the aformentioned ability to drop ttar spdef and revenge sand rush exca/etc. Can also halt rain sweepers temporarily if you are into that. And I would argue that char-y is better suited for balance teams. It is quite bulky, super strong, nice enough speed tier to dismanle defensive/slower threats.
U-turn is the reason why gen 5 lando was banned lol Def not irrelevant in xy
I think that lando is harder to switch into also (notably because it gets TWO hits on a switchin as opposed to just one). Knock off/u-turn make it super hard to switch into alongside its great coverage.
Porygon2 can recover/toxic stall camerupt. Gardevoir outspeeds. Also, gardevoir 2hkos after rocks, if you want to keep your two arguments consistent. Porygon2 is irrelevant here, anyway, and was simply used as a comparison.
Gard can run shadow ball if it really wanted to. Camerupt has a hard time against latis, blobs, etc. as well. In fact, it has a hard time against the majority of the meta given that it is outsped by everything. It also can't boost its power (and if it could afford to, it would be outsped and ko'd anyway).
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 196-231 (58.6 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Anyway, on the topic of exploud, it may be locked into a move, but it is locked into an absurdly strong and spammable move with no immunities. If you see it, you have to go to something like ttar or you get ko'd, giving ample opportunity for a quick ko with fblast/etc. Anyway, exploud was just for funsies, wouldn't reccomend that outside of trick room either.
I meant that there are a lot of physical threats that can wallbreak better than camerupt can specially.
Clefable beats camerupt because calm mind and outspeeds (lol). Camperupt also has no recovery.
Victini is faster, like 50% stronger, and has better coverage. It is far better than camerupt (also doesn't take up a mega).
The problem is that a lot of this is true, so I'm not gonna bother arguing it because I'd lose. But, none of this would ever knock MCam down to C-, and this can be displayed in how similar it is to Victini, and THIS is the point I am going to focus on.
I really don't think it's "far better than Camerupt". Both of them are fire type nukes. One of them is faster and hits a lot harder, while the other is weaker and far slower... and in return it's not weak to rocks, it switches in far easier, it isn't locked into 1 move, it's main STAB doesn't lower it's stats (that effectively makes Victini so slow that Victini will have to get the hell out, just like MCam) and it fits easier on balanced teams. At the end of the day, they share flaws: being forced out easily, switching in is a problem, weak to a multitude of common Pokemon in the metagame, ext. As fire type nukes, I really think they level out equally, but due to opportunity cost MCam needs to be 1 or 2 sublevels lower. Unless you think we should also drop Victini, I reckon this fact alone puts MCam at B/B-.
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Honestly as long as Charizard-Y and Victini exist I can't really see Camerupt in the B ranks. The two are stronger, faster, and hared to switch into than Camerupt. Even Entei outclasses Camerupt with its CB Sacred Fire, decent speed, and access to priority. The #1 flaw with Camerupt is of course its speed. Even if you're getting some really impressive 2HKO's on resists, because of your speed you will be forced out extremely easily. You could use the hazards argument, but these days nearly every team has hazard support anyway unless it's an extremely offensive team, and none of the fire types we're discussing fits in that playstyle. Camerupt in itself is a B ranked Pokemon but when you take into account that there are better non-mega (and mega) options for what it does, it can't really be in that rank.
Chansey for A- Chansey became so much better when Stall has got good again thanks to Mega Sableye, Chansey is hands down the best Special Wall in the entire OU metagame which makes it an easy staple to stall teams, The fall of Mew & Mega Heracross is also good for Chansey since Mega Sableye handles mew nice and easily while Mega Heracross has more competition and threats to handle like Mega Metagross, Altaria & Gallade which makes things even better for the Pink Blob.
Funny you mention Mega Sableye, as Chansey can literally do zero against him as well. Immune to status AND Seismic Toss. As a teammate, sure, he's great, but if you're up against a Mega Sableye yourself, Chansey is dead weight.
Chansey for A- Chansey became so much better when Stall has got good again thanks to Mega Sableye, Chansey is hands down the best Special Wall in the entire OU metagame which makes it an easy staple to stall teams, The fall of Mew & Mega Heracross is also good for Chansey since Mega Sableye handles mew nice and easily while Mega Heracross has more competition and threats to handle like Mega Metagross, Altaria & Gallade which makes things even better for the Pink Blob.
Mega Sableye is as helpful for Chansey as he is detrimental for her. Not to mention how Chansey is pure Knock Off bait. Half of her bulk is gone in one hit.
All of those mons absolutely destroy Chansey. If anything, the new slate of Megas has made Chansey less effective against both offense and stall alike -- the offensive Megas smack it around while Sableye and Slowbro can set up on it easy.
Chansey doesn't deserve A- at all. Frankly, even the rank it's at now is a little high. Sure, it's the single best Special wall in the game, but it no longer deals well against more of the new Megas, is extremely predictable, and is really just set-up bait. It's also hard countered by Bisharp, which is becoming more and more common. Being the single most Knock Off weak Pokémon in OU doesn't help either. It also no longer has the glory of countering Greninja, since Low Kick is a thing. It's got a whole lot of flaws now, and it certainly got way worse in the transition from XY to ORAS.
It probably should move down, to be honest. It's lost all of its fame.
It probably should move down, to be honest. It's lost all of its fame.
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Chansey should stay in B+, it's bait for too many dangerous stuff, including most offensive / set up MEvos, such as Mega Metagross, Mega Lopunny, Refresh / Heal Bell DD Mega Altaria, Mega Gallade, Mega Sableye, and CroMegaBro. It also doesn't help at all that the best special attackers in OU can all get past Chansey, namely Gengar, Thundurus (NP + Taunt, NP + Focus Blast, Knock Off + Superpower), Keldeo, CM Mega Diancie, Greninja, Mega Gardevoir (Taunt or CM), and Landorus (CM or Knock Off sets).
I think it's a good idea for Hippowdon to go to A-. Despite Tyranitar's superior offensive prowess and ability to Pursuit trap stuff, i find myself using Hippowdon more often whenever i want to use Sand Rush Excadrill, just because there are less offensive Pokemon able to take advantage of it, and it has reliable recovery to actually counter the stuff you want it to, instead of getting worn down and getting overwhelmed like Tyranitar. Hippowdon also walls Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Diancie. Furthermore, Stone Edge SpD Hippowdon is one of the best counters to any Thundurus variant, an S rank threat, which means that Hippowdon at least checks two S rank Pokemon, in addition to multiple A+ and A Pokemon.
Moving on, i disagree with Mandibuzz dropping. Mandibuzz still checks lots of threats and is still a great Defog user, able to beat a wide array of SR setters, such as Landorus-T, Landorus, Garchomp, Tyranitar, Hippowdon without Toxic, Ferrothorn, and lead Mamoswine. Mandibuzz counters two S rank threats, Mega Metagross and Landorus-T, and many other big threats, such as Mega Gallade, Mega Charizard X without WoW or SD + max Atk+, Gengar, Mega Lopunny without Encore or PuP, Mega Scizor, non-WoW or BU + Taunt Talonflame (both rare atm), Excadrill, Garchomp, Landorus, and more as we go down to A-. The biggest flaw of Mandibuzz is that she's SR weak, because otherwise it's a stellar defensive Pokemon with tons of utility thanks to moves such as Defog, Taunt, Whirlwind, U-turn, and Knock Off. As long as you have teammates to take care of the SR setters that trouble Mandibuzz (Clefable and Heatran are the main ones, so Tentacruel comes to mind), Mandibuzz can easily keep SR off the field, or even forfeit Defog altogether for an other utility move. All in all, i don't get the sudden push for it to drop, especially when it beats two of the most threatening physical sweepers in OU, Mega Metagross and Mega Gallade.
Some changes i agree with but i don't feel there is anything left to add or i am just lazy to write more atm:
Chesnaught to B+
Mega Camerupt to B- / C+: Too slow, doesn't hit that hard, competition for MEvo slot.
Celebi to A-: NP + BP is amazing and turns Mega Lopunny into set up fodder, while sets such as offensive NP, all out offensive, and Scarf are all viable, and the latter is one of the best checks to Mega Lopunny that offensive teams can use.
Suicune to B: The metagame has adapted to deal with bulky set up sweepers, with Pokemon such as NP Celebi, TG + Energy Ball Manaphy, NP Togekiss, DD + Heal Bell / Refresh Mega Altaria, and DD + Sub Mega Gyarados becoming more common, plus Mega Slowbro is usually better in the CM role.
Rhyperior to B: Some physical threats it walls are not that prominent anymore, such as Mega Pinsir, Mega Tyranitar, and Dragonite, while all the new physical attackers beat it, so it doesn't beat such a big portion of physically based teams as it used to.
I think it's a good idea for Hippowdon to go to A-. Despite Tyranitar's superior offensive prowess and ability to Pursuit trap stuff, i find myself using Hippowdon more often whenever i want to use Sand Rush Excadrill, just because there are less offensive Pokemon able to take advantage of it, and it has reliable recovery to actually counter the stuff you want it to, instead of getting worn down and getting overwhelmed like Tyranitar. Hippowdon also walls Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Diancie. Furthermore, Stone Edge SpD Hippowdon is one of the best counters to any Thundurus variant, an S rank threat, which means that Hippowdon at least checks two S rank Pokemon, in addition to multiple A+ and A Pokemon.
Moving on, i disagree with Mandibuzz dropping. Mandibuzz still checks lots of threats and is still a great Defog user, able to beat a wide array of SR setters, such as Landorus-T, Landorus, Garchomp, Tyranitar, Hippowdon without Toxic, Ferrothorn, and lead Mamoswine. Mandibuzz counters two S rank threats, Mega Metagross and Landorus-T, and many other big threats, such as Mega Gallade, Mega Charizard X without WoW or SD + max Atk+, Gengar, Mega Lopunny without Encore or PuP, Mega Scizor, non-WoW or BU + Taunt Talonflame (both rare atm), Excadrill, Garchomp, Landorus, and more as we go down to A-. The biggest flaw of Mandibuzz is that she's SR weak, because otherwise it's a stellar defensive Pokemon with tons of utility thanks to moves such as Defog, Taunt, Whirlwind, U-turn, and Knock Off. As long as you have teammates to take care of the SR setters that trouble Mandibuzz (Clefable and Heatran are the main ones, so Tentacruel comes to mind), Mandibuzz can easily keep SR off the field, or even forfeit Defog altogether for an other utility move. All in all, i don't get the sudden push for it to drop, especially when it beats two of the most threatening physical sweepers in OU, Mega Metagross and Mega Gallade.
Some changes i agree with but i don't feel there is anything left to add or i am just lazy to write more atm:
Chesnaught to B+
Mega Camerupt to B- / C+: Too slow, doesn't hit that hard, competition for MEvo slot.
Celebi to A-: NP + BP is amazing and turns Mega Lopunny into set up fodder, while sets such as offensive NP, all out offensive, and Scarf are all viable, and the latter is one of the best checks to Mega Lopunny that offensive teams can use.
Suicune to B: The metagame has adapted to deal with bulky set up sweepers, with Pokemon such as NP Celebi, TG + Energy Ball Manaphy, NP Togekiss, DD + Heal Bell / Refresh Mega Altaria, and DD + Sub Mega Gyarados becoming more common, plus Mega Slowbro is usually better in the CM role.
Rhyperior to B: Some physical threats it walls are not that prominent anymore, such as Mega Pinsir, Mega Tyranitar, and Dragonite, while all the new physical attackers beat it, so it doesn't beat such a big portion of physically based teams as it used to.
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>_> Typo or am I missing something? Seems you're advocating for the opposite. Or are you disagreeing with the rise?
That said, what Alexwolf said actually seems reason for it to drop down. If anything the things he's said seem not only reasons it's not much better now, but suggest it's actually much worse.
I should have explained this, my bad. While Chansey individually indeed got worse, they playstyle it thrives in, stall, got much more viable in ORAS, so i think those two factors balance out and leave Chansey as a solid B+ rank Pokemon. I wouldn't be 100% opposed to it dropping however, if good enough reasoning is presented, because defensive Pokemon such as Chesnaught and Skarmory are better than Chansey in a metagame where offensive threats are mostly physical.
As for Chansey getting significantly worse, I wouldn't say that's entirely the case. Chansey walls Greninja besides like max Attack dumb stuff (a very impressive feat on its own), Mega Diancie, special Mega Altaria, and Mega Sceptile of the new threats, and is still a pretty crucial cog on many stall teams, a playstyle which has gained popularity in ORAS. I don't agree with dropping it.
Not particularly.
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 221-265 (34.4 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
With any sort of prior damage, Chansey is 2HKOed by Low Kick. It may be uncommon, but it still exists.
Also, Mega Sceptile has the freedom to be able to set up a Sub and spam Focus Blast. (I'm sure it doesn't do much, but still.)
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria Return vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 281-331 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
Certainly not 'walling.' It's also set up fodder if Altaria is running Refresh, and Toxic'ed Facade is a guaranteed 2HKO
Oops, sorry! I missed that you said Special Altaria. It's not that common so oops.
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Sceptile's subs is destroyed by Chansey's seismic toss and she could just recover off the damage done by focus blast . So Sceptile isn't really able to keep spamming focus blast .
He said special Altaria not DD Altaria :)
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