Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[Jukain]

Right, but Chansey should be running 252 HP for the exact reason that it's much less difficult to be worn down by Greninja.

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 221-265 (31.3 - 37.6%) -- 85.5% chance to 3HKO
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 221-265 (31.3 - 37.6%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

Under all reasonable definitions of the word this is a counter, and this holds true with SR + 1 Spike which is a pretty decent amount of passive damage.

 

[HolyAvatar]

Not particularly.
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 221-265 (34.4 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
With any sort of prior damage, Chansey is 2HKOed by Low Kick. It may be uncommon, but it still exists.
Also, Mega Sceptile has the freedom to be able to set up a Sub and spam Focus Blast. (I'm sure it doesn't do much, but still.)

Low kick does the same dame damage as gunk shot. No need for low kick calcs.
Chansey should always be 252 hp anyway.

To a poster saying she loses 50% of her bulk with knock off, it is not true. She loses 33% (1/3 to be precise).

 

[jetslover1]

I find it pretty ridiculous that Mega Latias is ranked lower than normal Latias. As long as you have no mega that you absolutely believe that you need every battle, than this should be up there. This is easily worth more than it's normal evo. First of all it can absolutely wall a knock off unlike most calm mind users.
252+ ATK Life Orb Bisharp vs. 0 HP, 4 DEF Mega Latias (83.7 - 99.3%) guaranteed 2HKO

252+ ATK Life Orb Bisharp vs 252 HP, 4 DEF Mega Latias (69.2 - 82.1%) guaranteed 2HKO

252 + ATK Life Orb Bisharp vs. 252 HP, 252 DEF Mega Latias (56.3 - 64%) guaranteed 2HKO

Yes I realise that no matter what a lifew Orb Bisharp with knock off will get a 2HKO no matter what, however this might change your: no speed ev mega latias out speeds 252 speed Bisharp and this might help even more:

252 SPA Mega Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs. 4 HP, 0 SpD (average Bisharp) (136.7-161.7) guaranteed OHKO

If we deviate from the norm, we can get this:

252 SPA Mega Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs 252 HP and 252 SPD (81.4-97%) guaranteed 2HKO

If this doesn't make you rethink the position of your ranking then I'm not sure anything will, but this stuff really proves that Mega Latias is pretty under appreciated and many people don't really know how to use her a 100% as Bisharp is it's most used counter as is one of the most used Pokemon in OU.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

I find it pretty ridiculous that Mega Latias is ranked lower than normal Latias. As long as you have no mega that you absolutely believe that you need every battle, than this should be up there. This is easily worth more than it's normal evo. First of all it can absolutely wall a knock off unlike most calm mind users.
252+ ATK Life Orb Bisharp vs. 0 HP, 4 DEF Mega Latias (83.7 - 99.3%) guaranteed 2HKO

252+ ATK Life Orb Bisharp vs 252 HP, 4 DEF Mega Latias (69.2 - 82.1%) guaranteed 2HKO

252 + ATK Life Orb Bisharp vs. 252 HP, 252 DEF Mega Latias (56.3 - 64%) guaranteed 2HKO

Yes I realise that no matter what a lifew Orb Bisharp with knock off will get a 2HKO no matter what, however this might change your: no speed ev mega latias out speeds 252 speed Bisharp and this might help even more:

252 SPA Mega Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs. 4 HP, 0 SpD (average Bisharp) (136.7-161.7) guaranteed OHKO

If we deviate from the norm, we can get this:

252 SPA Mega Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs 252 HP and 252 SPD (81.4-97%) guaranteed 2HKO

If this doesn't make you rethink the position of your ranking then I'm not sure anything will, but this stuff really proves that Mega Latias is pretty under appreciated and many people don't really know how to use her a 100% as Bisharp is it's most used counter as is one of the most used Pokemon in OU.

You know your solution leaves it walled by Mega Sableye, one of the most common Stall mons, right? Also, taking 70% from an attack does not count "completely walling". Either way, Mega Latias was not kept out of A+ just because of Bisharp. The big issue is the opportunity cost of using Mega Latias if you aren't using the Calm Mind set. Mega Latias's Calm Mind set is awesome, but it's base form can still perform many of the same roles without eating up your Mega slot

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

I find it pretty ridiculous that Mega Latias is ranked lower than normal Latias. As long as you have no mega that you absolutely believe that you need every battle, than this should be up there. This is easily worth more than it's normal evo. First of all it can absolutely wall a knock off unlike most calm mind users.
252+ ATK Life Orb Bisharp vs. 0 HP, 4 DEF Mega Latias (83.7 - 99.3%) guaranteed 2HKO

252+ ATK Life Orb Bisharp vs 252 HP, 4 DEF Mega Latias (69.2 - 82.1%) guaranteed 2HKO

252 + ATK Life Orb Bisharp vs. 252 HP, 252 DEF Mega Latias (56.3 - 64%) guaranteed 2HKO

Yes I realise that no matter what a lifew Orb Bisharp with knock off will get a 2HKO no matter what, however this might change your: no speed ev mega latias out speeds 252 speed Bisharp and this might help even more:

252 SPA Mega Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs. 4 HP, 0 SpD (average Bisharp) (136.7-161.7) guaranteed OHKO

If we deviate from the norm, we can get this:

252 SPA Mega Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs 252 HP and 252 SPD (81.4-97%) guaranteed 2HKO

If this doesn't make you rethink the position of your ranking then I'm not sure anything will, but this stuff really proves that Mega Latias is pretty under appreciated and many people don't really know how to use her a 100% as Bisharp is it's most used counter as is one of the most used Pokemon in OU.

'As long as you have no mega that you absolutely believe that you need every battle' is the key. There are currently 10 mega evolutions in the A+ rank's club of 19. The odds of somebody building a team without considering one of them is small, and the reality is that Mega Latias is simply not enough of an improvement over Latias to warrant giving up that slot.

 

[jetslover1]

You know your solution leaves it walled by Mega Sableye, one of the most common Stall mons, right? Also, taking 70% from an attack does not count "completely walling". Either way, Mega Latias was not kept out of A+ just because of Bisharp. The big issue is the opportunity cost of using Mega Latias if you aren't using the Calm Mind set. Mega Latias's Calm Mind set is awesome, but it's base form can still perform many of the same roles without eating up your Mega slot

But I specifically that this only applies if you are not using anot her mega.

The thing is. It's just not worth the slot. It's simply a "well I have no mega on this team, but I do have Latios. Why not?" Pokemon. You don't really build around a Mega Latios, you run across it. The simple fact it's about as viable as it's normal LO counter part is nice, the problem is, it costs you a mega slot, which is a huge deal.

Also, I'm not entirely sure what those calcs are, but I'm going to choose to stay away from them, for my own sake.

I specifically said that it should be used if you have an open mega slot.

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

I specifically said that it should be used if you have an open mega slot.

And that 'if you have an open mega slot' means Mega Latias will simply never be as useful as its regular form.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I specifically said that it should be used if you have an open mega slot.

Firstly, I read your post wrong and read Latios in place of Latias. My apologies.
Secondly, the point still stands in a way. Yes, if you have an open mega slot, AND a Latias, Mega Latias can and probably should be used. However, 9 times out of 10 you already have a mega when it comes to team building.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

But I specifically that this only applies if you are not using anot her mega.

If you aren't then sure it's better. However, if I have an opportunity to use a Mega, then chances are that since I am not building around CM Mega Latias, I can better optimize my team by swapping a sweeper, wallbreaker, or wall for a Mega once I pick my initial 6 members. The gap between Mega Latias and regular Latias is not nearly as large as the gap between Mega Wallbreakers and non-Mega Wallbreakers that often rely on Choice items. Similar things can be said for sweepers and walls. If, after going through the team, I decide that there is no way to swap any of my wallbreakers, sweepers or walls with a Mega without severely compromising my team's synergy, then yes I would probably use Mega Latias. However, that makes choosing Mega Latias pretty low on my list of Megas to consider during team building.

 

[Albacore]

we need to talk about camel
(see that face? that's the face of a Pokemon who can't stand the amount of pressure it's under. There's a reason this thing is overflowing with lava)

Okay, I've been using Camerupt a lot in the past day or so, and I've changed my mind on it. I think it needs to move down to B-. C+ is probably too harsh though, imo, it is definitely better than, say, Mega-Ampharos, but I can't really see it above Mega Garchomp for now, although MCam has more qualities than it it also has more flaws. I'm going to explain in detail my feelings about it so here we go :

Now, I still don't think MCamerupt is nearly as bad as a lot of people say it is. From experience it is easy to send in, mainly due to its excellent synergy with pivots such as Celebi and Rotom-W. It has a really easy time switching in on Ferrothorn, Heatran, Skarmory, Mega-Manectric, Raikou, baically Grass, Steel and Electric types in general. Once it has been sent in, something is probably going to take a ton of damage. And although in theory you do need to predict to hit stuff and if you get it wrong you get forced out while dealing little to no damage, I never really had any trouble figuring out which moves to use, maybe my opponents weren't very good, but I never got into a situation where I sent Camerupt in and subsequently didn't deal solid damage to something (unless Chansey obviously). This may be becuase Cmarupt's weaknesses are very clear-cut so it's usually easy to figure out what's being sent in on it. It's also impressively good at winning 1v1s for whatever reason. It will usually get one kill par match, and often the threat of it dealing massive damage to something works as a pretty good tool for putting pressure on opponents so its effectiveness can't really be accurately measured by its bodycount.

However, MCam's big problem that is needs to OHKO everything. It hits hard enough and has good enough coverage to guarantee a KO against a lot of teams, but the fact remains that, despite the fact that it can deal at least 50% to anything that isn't named Chansey, 50% isn't enough. Heck, even 85% isn't enough. Camerupt is the easiest thing in the world to force out, which means that even if something takes massive damage from switching into it, it has cut its lifespan down. Even though Camerupt finds more opportunities to come in than most wallbreakers, it still has to come in way too many times to be worth it in a lot of cases. Camerupt is just on this constant, impending timer to deal as much damage as possible, and any whip damage it takes is really bad for it. If the opponent decides to sack whatever it switched in on, Camerupt just can't do anything anymore, because not only will it deal damage to it but it will also remove the thing that enables MCam to switch in easily, making it much harder for it to hurt to anything.

But what really stings for Camerupt is not Chansey, who is pretty easy to take advantage of, but Rotom-W and the Latis. These are massive thorns in Camerupt's side, because, even though they do take a lot of damage from Fire Blast, they still force it out, limit how many times it can come in and how much damage it can cause. And these Pokemon are absolutely everywhere. You know something is wrong when early-game, you end up using Toxic (best 4th move on MCam btw) more than your actual STABs. In fact, I have seen many teams featuring both a Lati and Rotom and Camerupt is really hard pressed to do much of anything against those teams, especially if the Lati has Roost in which case Camerupt goes from "thing that sacrifices its life to wear down the lati until it falls" to "complete deadweight". And yes, this can be fixed by partners. And neither of these are all that hard to switch into if you really try (specially Rotom). But Camerupt just cannot afford to just poison something, since its time on the field is very, very precious.

And then there's the problem of teambuilding, which is really important in determining viability (otherwise we probably wouldn't have Lando-T or Latios in S). Which I used to think was a point in Camerupt's favor, since it has really good partners and everything. But as it turns out, and I don't know if this is just my personal problem, but most of these great partners are defensive. Reason for this is that MCamerupt is a huge momentum killer and leaves you open to a bunch of stuff. SO, you pack switchins to these things. Then, you pack switchins to the things that take advantage of your ground-and-water switchins. Then, you test the team out and notice that you lose to some random threat like DD MGyara or Sludge Wave Landorus. So you pack counters to these, and end up building more and more defensive, and before you know it you end up with a team which would honestly rather have an actual wall than MCam. Because although MCam is bulky, it is not a defensive Pokemon, and unless you pack wish support (which you will end up doing) it can't come in much more than 3 times without dying. I actually have 6 versions of the same MCamerupt team, each one more defensive than the next. The last one of these features Unaware Clefable, Hippowdon and Tentacruel and is basically just a stall team but with MCam over what should probably be a Heatran. Then again, this is just me trying to build round MCam. Maybe i'm doing it wrong; maybe it's supposed to be a glue Mega like Venusaur or Slowbro or Metagross to some extent and not really something you can build round. I'd really like some input from other people who have used it and had more success than I have.

Camerupt is ultimately very matchup based, and even against the best matchup possible for it, it is hard pressed to get over 2 kills because it's so easy to wear down. 2HKOing it is not all that easy. But a 2HKO isn't really that needed when you're taking rocks damage, chip damage from switching into HP Ices Power Whips and Lava Plumes. It's a very frustrating Pokemon to use both on the field and while building, and I definitely see where its love-it-or-hate it reputation came from because though it absolutely does put in work against a lot of teams, it is under much more pressure to deal damage than any Pokemon I can think of packing it limits teambuilding pretty badly. As I said, it's not as niche as C+ imo but it fits quite well in B-

 

[Glue]

Chansey for A- Chansey became so much better when Stall has got good again thanks to Mega Sableye, Chansey is hands down the best Special Wall in the entire OU metagame which makes it an easy staple to stall teams, The fall of Mew & Mega Heracross is also good for Chansey since Mega Sableye handles mew nice and easily while Mega Heracross has more competition and threats to handle like Mega Metagross, Altaria & Gallade which makes things even better for the Pink Blob.

I understand where you guys are coming from about Chansey and Disagreeing with my Post I made, I Just thought since Stall gotten better in the ORAS metagame I thought why not putting Chansey in A- rank since it is a Key Part to stall teams, But I am fine with Chansey staying in B+.

 

[JMach]

Before I go into my thoughts on rankings, I wanted to give some feedback to people saying that something isn't a counter because it can't switch in if it has x amount of prior damage: one of the core aspects of competitive battling is analysing your opponent's team, spotting threats to your own team and keeping your checks / counters / win conditions healthy accordingly. Fair enough, your AV Azu may not be able to switch in on their non-GS Ninja anymore but that's your own fault for allowing prior damage to rack up. It was still a counter when the match begun, you just played it poorly. All decent players understand this...

Anyway, onto rankings:

Mega Alakazam | Stay at B+
Not a lot to say about Megazam if I'm honest. He's received an equal number of positives and negatives in the ORAS meta so far. On the one hand, I think speed creep has been a boost for him, as it makes him all the more relevant, being able to still outspeed the vast majority of the unboosted meta. However, I feel what made him most threatening in XY was his ability to simultaneously provide an answer to Offense (with speed, power and coverage) but also Stall (with Trace shenanigans, Taunt, CM Psyshock for blobs etc). Now, with the advent of Megalye and Megabro, Zam just can't pressure stall as much. Zam can't OHKO Mega Sableye with Dazzling Gleam, especially after a CM, and won't want to be taking its STAB on. Same goes for Bro, boosts just get in the way, and with these two threats Stall isn't nearly passive enough for Zam to take advantage of in most cases. Zam also has great utility vs Rain with Trace, but that goes without saying. He has his uses, but it's a double edged sword. Keep him where he is.

Breloom | Raise to A-
This has been discussed to death and there's little more to add. Grass is getting better in the meta (especially Spore / Sleep Powder), priority is better because of speed creep and many teams just aren't prepared enough for Loom.

Celebi | Raise to A-
I haven't actually used much Celebi but hot digitty is NastyPass dangerous. As aforementioned, grass is proving a useful and underprepared for typing, and in Celebi's case it's the sort of lack of preparation you really can't afford. I've been steamrolled by a surprise NastyPass more times than I care to admit. I've used a physical set recently on mid-high ladder as well with Seed Bomb, Sucker, ZHB and SD. A bit gimmicky, sure, but the typing and lack of preparation from opponents meant it worked surprisingly well. Scarf and support sets are also highly viable, as has been discussed, and Healing Wish is a thing iirc, but I have no experience with them really so I can't comment. All-in-all, just like Mew last gen in its ability to do a load of things really well. Bump it up IMO.

Chansey | Stay at B+, maybe lower to B
Literally so little to say. As passive as ever, but often the glue a lot of Stall teams need. Can still check Ninja fairly well in most cases, which is probably reason enough for it to stay at B (get suspected plz Gren). However, it's still often easily taken advantage of my offensive threats you can't afford to be awarding free turns. A tricky one, so I'm on the fence.

Dragonite | Lower to B
Heavy opportunity cost. Other things can do its job better in general, namely Mega Altaria as a DDer. Also suffers from the power and speed creep, and reliance on prediction vs new threats like Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross, Mega Sceptile, Mega Lopunny... The list goes on. In my mind, it has nothing extra going for it except gimmicky WP sets and, of course ESpeed. Don't get me wrong, it's a sick move that gives Dragonite great cleaning capabilities an a definite edge in many clutch situations, but that isn't enough to mitigate its shortcomings. Definite drop if you ask me. Poor Puff :'(

Gyarados | Raise to A- (Edited... didn't realise Megados was separate)
Even after editing this, I still think Gyara should move up. His typing is great in the meta and his insane bulk, which is exemplified by Intimidate, often makes him a good answer to new threats like Mega Lop, evolved Megagross, Megallade etc... He's also a popular choice from a synergy point of view atm, as he can make up 1/3 of a FWG core whilst simultaneously being part of an Intimidate core. Definitely something that's underprepared for - especially RestTalk sets.

Hawlucha | Stay in B+
Yeah, Hawlucha is a lot more viable now that Aegislash is gone, and, I would argue, can be one of the deadliest late game sweepers in the meta. However, it's still just a one time setup. It's just so reliable on getting the unburden boost and an SD up before it can be really threatening. There's a lot that walls it or just causes it problems in general, like Lando-T, Sylveon on stall and Thundy. Admittedly, Sub-Sitrus sets are pretty awesome, and can screw people pretty badly (especially Megalye switch-ins predicting HJK). So it has definite merits. But on the whole, it can be tricky to use. The support and removal it requires just don't make it a threat worthy of the A ranks IMO. But somebody feel free to prove me wrong.

Hippowdon | Lower to B
I never see Hippo anymore. It's okay as a wall in certain situations I guess but the power creep, and rise of strong grass types in the tier, make its job so much harder. It basically gives MegaScep a free sub unless it runs Ice Fang, and Scep behind a sub is such a slut to deal with. Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro also make its life harder. The meta hasn't been kind to Hippo at all. I also think powerful wallbreakers like SD Diggersby and Crawdaunt are really good right now and Hippo is just a tad too passive to deal with them. Giving Diggersby a free SD is not a good idea. Like. Ever. And nothing wants to take a LO Adaptability Knock Off / Crabhammer. Sand also isn't as dominant as it was in late XY, and TTar is struggling for exactly this reason. Deffo move hippo down, it just can't handle the pressure as well as it used to, and struggles to win a spot on a team in favour of other useful support 'mons.

Kabutops | Stay in B+
Rain is really, really good - nobody is denying that. But Kaputops's effectiveness in the metagame is no different to how it was last gen. MegaPert is the real reason rain has improved. Kabutops actually struggles against many of the new additions, most notably MegaBro, and also doesn't appreciate the rise of priority. Celebi is also a bitch for it, as Stone Edge rarely does enough to a healthy one. So yeah, Kabutops shouldn't rise just because more people are playing Rain Offense. It doesn't do enough new to warrant a rise.

Kingdra | See above

Kyurem-B | Raise to A-
Super anti-meta, as everyone has been saying. Choice sets are pretty meh if you ask me, although Scarf has a decent enough surprise factor when played correctly, but they're just momentum killers a lot of the time. Sub-3 Attacks Roost-3 Attacks, and even AV, are what make this guy scary. Sub-3 Attacks is awesome against like every playstyle, bar hard Stall, with the right switch-ins. Roost allows it to maintain crazy pressure from start to finish. And AV allows it to check a load of Ninja variants. Even if it just U-Turns out, Kyube is hard as dick to switch in on. Definite candidate for a raise.

Will make some further nominations later on but my fingers are hurting a bit and I want to see some more riveting discussion :)

 

[I like donkeys]

Scarf Kyurem-B is actually pretty good imo it allows to outspeed and OHKO top tier threats such as landorus, Greninja, non-scarf Latios, Dragonite at +1 ma whole bunch of new and old megas, can even bypass sturdy and multiscale and levitate which is definitely a plus. In fact, unless I'm forgetting something, Kyurem-B is the only OU pokemon that can single handedly outspeed and OHKO every single S rank pokemon in OU.
Also, what are everyone's thoughts on Slurpuffs being put in rank D or perhaps even C-? I for one believe he should be put in rank D because drain punch and shit.

 

[Tramuntana]

why people keeps comparing Dragonite to the megas I wonder? if you must sacrifise your megaslot to find something that outclasses dragonite, it means that the player who keeps using it has his megaslot free for something else like rock polish mega diancie, the powerfull wallbreakers like heracross or loppuny, and of course the godly megagross.

i fact, this is something we should consider about the viability ranking: comparing the megas to the other mons makes little sense as you only can run one mega and no more, while it's perfectly possible to create a team with 6 regular mons. megas should be ranked apart of regular mons to avoid all those kind of mistakes

 

[phoenixflame95]

Gyarados: Raise to A- or A
This monster needs to move up. Crunch alone was enough to give it the edge it needed, and with bulky AF Subs, Mold Breaker Taunt, Defensive RestTalk sets etc etc etc... There's so much scary shit he can do, he has great bulk and a fantastic typing that can force mind games with his MEvo. And he doesn't even need to Mega. Regular lefties / lum sets all have their places. Just such an easy 'mon to synergise with. Definitely move to A-, possibly even A, although we may need more time in ORAS to see how things will pan out.

I agree with the other ones, but just a nitpick: I believe Mega Gyarados was just bumped to A+ and it's treated separately from its regular form. I don't think its base form got any worse in the tradition, but Mega Gyarados got a lot better, and if anything, even though the two forms play differently, I think the ranking gap should reflect that.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

why people keeps comparing Dragonite to the megas I wonder? if you must sacrifise your megaslot to find something that outclasses dragonite, it means that the player who keeps using it has his megaslot free for something else like rock polish mega diancie, the powerfull wallbreakers like heracross or loppuny, and of course the godly megagross.

i fact, this is something we should consider about the viability ranking: comparing the megas to the other mons makes little sense as you only can run one mega and no more, while it's perfectly possible to create a team with 6 regular mons. megas should be ranked apart of regular mons to avoid all those kind of mistakes

We tried making a separate viability list for Megas pre-ORAS and it died out pretty quickly. The issue with comparing the megas separately from the rest of the meta is that at the end of the day, Megas have to interact with non-Megas. Dragonite is powerful compared to non-Megas, but it should be recognized that he is outclassed by many Mega Wallbreakers and should probably be replaced if possible. Conversely, there are many non-Megas who are considered more viable than other megas which should also be taken into account when teambuilding. Just because you can build a team with no Megas and probably do well with it doesn't mean you should ignore the fact that Megas tend to outclass many non-Megas with similar roles. You are right that Dragonite lets you have a strong wallbreaker that doesn't take up a Mega slot, and honestly that's really one of the few reasons it stays as high as it does on the viability list.

 

[Vert]

Alright, idk why Manaphy didn't move up in the last update but whatever

Chesnaught to B+

It walls a bunch of common crap and is overall really useful defensively. It can use Spikes which wear down offense even faster due to the sheer amount of switches stall teams force. Spiky Shield is really good utility, and can wear down stuff really fast when added to Leech Seed. It walls key 'mons like Mega Gyarados, Bisharp, etc. It could move higher, but this is a good benchmark for now.

Hippowdon to A-

It fell in the past, but this metagame is so physically based, it is ridiculous how much work it can put in-game. It phazesor does massive damage to some important 'mons like Mega Pinsir, Excadrill, Mega Lopunny, Mega Altaria, non-Calm Mind Mega Diancie, Mega Charizard X, Mega Metagross, etc. It sets up Stealth Rock with ease and can shuffle around doing important residual damage, especially when added with Spikes. It can wear down some important 'mons with Earthquake on the switch like Keldeo, Azumarill, which are problematic for 'mons like Greninja, Mega Gyarados, and Manaphy (basically makes Water-SPAM so much easier). Rain has increased in popularity and forcing Politoed to come in multiple times sucks for opposing teams and can allow you to take advantage of all the crap that sets up on it (most notably: Mega Slowbro and and Mega Sceptile).

Mega Camerupt to B-

This thing is way too slow to put in any real work as a wallbreaker. For example, a wallbreaker should be able to outspeed Chansey. Mega Camerupt can't even beat a 20% Chansey because it will Soft-boiled before you know it. Against offensive teams, it does more work getting lots of oppurtunities to do work and SPAM Fire Blast / Earth Power, allowing you to clear for a sweeper. It completely craps on Volt Switch, but the main issue is also oppurtunity cost since unlike other Mega WBreaker, Mega Camerupt's speed prevent it from cleaning late-game unlike Mega Metagross and Mega Gallade nor does it posses the great defensive typing paired with bulk Mega Heracross has. IT is forced out by a bunch of bulky Water-types which really kind of sucks (please don't quote me on this, I know what ya'll repsonse is). It has some perks which is why it shouldn't go to C+, but B- is the most reasonable ranking to be honest.

discussed things I agree with

Mega Swampert to A-
Zapdos to B-/C+
Mega Beedrill to B+
Skarmory to A-
Celebi to A-

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Mega Swampert should go to B. Reason being, it is not as good as Kingdra or Kabutops on Rain teams. It's not as powerful as them, especially Kingdra, it's not as fast, and Swift Swim doesn't function for a turn.

It doesn't provide any utility against offensive teams than King and Kabu don't already provide. Kingdra alone wins the 1v1 matchup against 95% of the meta, very few things can avoid getting one-shot from Specs Hydro Pump in Rain or Specs Meteor.

Its lower power makes it not as good against stall.

As bulky as it is, I find myself preferring Mega Metagross (Fire weakness is nullified in Rain) or especially Mega Altaria (checks electrics similarly to Swampert, Heal Bell can cure swimmers of prankster t-wave,) both bulky attackers and wincons that function outside of Rain. Furthermore, the no swift swim thing means it has to take at least one hit... Kingdra rarely has to take hits except against priority, and 85/95/95 is not that frail to begin with.

 

[jbtc10]

We tried making a separate viability list for Megas pre-ORAS and it died out pretty quickly. The issue with comparing the megas separately from the rest of the meta is that at the end of the day, Megas have to interact with non-Megas. Dragonite is powerful compared to non-Megas, but it should be recognized that he is outclassed by many Mega Wallbreakers and should probably be replaced if possible. Conversely, there are many non-Megas who are considered more viable than other megas which should also be taken into account when teambuilding. Just because you can build a team with no Megas and probably do well with it doesn't mean you should ignore the fact that Megas tend to outclass many non-Megas with similar roles. You are right that Dragonite lets you have a strong wallbreaker that doesn't take up a Mega slot, and honestly that's really one of the few reasons it stays as high as it does on the viability list.

Even the Mega wall breakers like Heracross don't also double as a revenge killer with E-Speed though, which is what makes D-Nite that good and prevents him from being outclassed even by them. The obvious threat of E-Speed alone gives him nice opportunities to nuke incoming switch-ins and he can sweep late game with it seeing as it does a maximum of 83% against things like Greninja, 76% to Talonflame, 69% to Latios, and even 48% to Mega Gyara, which is massive. He's a great "get out of sweep free" card and great hole puncher to take advantage of your U-Turn and Volt-Switch momentum. I personally thought a raise to A- wouldn't be pushing its luck too much, but B+ is fine nonetheless and definitely shouldn't go lower.

And yeah, Hippo is coming good again, to the point where it's basically on par with T-Tar as a choice for a sand streamer and is a decent enough wall in its own right. T-Tar is pretty easy to wear down and doesn't really have as good defensive qualities as Hippo either. It's a great switch into Lati's and Heatran (if it doesn't get burned by a Lava Plume) but it doesn't go too much further than that, whereas Hippo can pretty much come in on any physical attacker that doesn't have a SE STAB and can set up rocks and sand far more frequently throughout a match than what T-Tar can. It can also interrupt Volt-Switch momentum from Manetric really nicely too, as HP Ice doesn't even do that much to physically defensive sets.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Even the Mega wall breakers like Heracross don't also double as a revenge killer with E-Speed though, which is what makes D-Nite that good and prevents him from being outclassed even by them. The obvious threat of E-Speed alone gives him nice opportunities to nuke incoming switch-ins and he can sweep late game with it seeing as it does a maximum of 83% against things like Greninja, 76% to Talonflame, 69% to Latios, and even 48% to Mega Gyara, which is massive. He's a great "get out of sweep free" card and great hole puncher to take advantage of your U-Turn and Volt-Switch momentum. I personally thought a raise to A- wouldn't be pushing its luck too much, but B+ is fine nonetheless and definitely shouldn't go lower.

Sorry, my intent wasn't to bash on D-Nite so much as try and explain why Megas shouldn't be ranked separately from non-Megas and why we compare Megas from non-Megas, which seemed to be the point of the post that I was responding to.

 

[cyberpunkbanana]

Honestly not much has changed for d-nite in the ORAS OU meta. It's hardest counters are bulky fairies, and those have existed since XY. Yeah Lopunny and Altaria are annoying, but d-nite can usually live any one hit from the other megas (assuming multiscale is still intact). And +1 E-Speed is godly.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Honestly not much has changed for d-nite in the ORAS OU meta. It's hardest counters are bulky fairies, and those have existed since XY. Yeah Lopunny and Altaria are annoying, but d-nite can usually live any one hit from the other megas (assuming multiscale is still intact). And +1 E-Speed is godly.

Doesn't help that it has gained more checks and counters, as well as incredibly stiff competition for its roles. Dragonite has really lost its luster in ORAS and should therefore drop to B+.

 

[DGpegasus]

We tried making a separate viability list for Megas pre-ORAS and it died out pretty quickly. The issue with comparing the megas separately from the rest of the meta is that at the end of the day, Megas have to interact with non-Megas. Dragonite is powerful compared to non-Megas, but it should be recognized that he is outclassed by many Mega Wallbreakers and should probably be replaced if possible. Conversely, there are many non-Megas who are considered more viable than other megas which should also be taken into account when teambuilding. Just because you can build a team with no Megas and probably do well with it doesn't mean you should ignore the fact that Megas tend to outclass many non-Megas with similar roles. You are right that Dragonite lets you have a strong wallbreaker that doesn't take up a Mega slot, and honestly that's really one of the few reasons it stays as high as it does on the viability list.

I think for the same reason Dragonite should be high because it doesn't take a mega slot, some mega's could be lower because of they take up the slot. Or we don't rank this way and look at the pokemon seperately like you said before. I honestly don't think Dragonite is still up there because of the fact that he doesn't take a mega slot but because he is individually strong.

 

[AM]

I think for the same reason Dragonite should be high because it doesn't take a mega slot, some mega's could be lower because of they take up the slot. Or we don't rank this way and look at the pokemon seperately like you said before. I honestly don't think Dragonite is still up there because of the fact that he doesn't take a mega slot but because he is individually strong.

Viability takes into account its performance from a 1v1 standpoint, as a team member, and how it fares against the meta as a whole not in individual aspects out of these 3 mentioned. Dragonites performance out of all these combined justifies its ranking at B+. It is not as efficient as those of the A- rank and A rank as a whole in terms of its practical abilities and therefore it is fine at B+.

 

[JMach]

why people keeps comparing Dragonite to the megas I wonder? if you must sacrifise your megaslot to find something that outclasses dragonite, it means that the player who keeps using it has his megaslot free for something else like rock polish mega diancie, the powerfull wallbreakers like heracross or loppuny, and of course the godly megagross.

i fact, this is something we should consider about the viability ranking: comparing the megas to the other mons makes little sense as you only can run one mega and no more, while it's perfectly possible to create a team with 6 regular mons. megas should be ranked apart of regular mons to avoid all those kind of mistakes

I don't think it's really an issue of whether or not we're comparing DNite to Megas, we're just comparing DNite to other Pokemon that perform the same role, but do it better. Unless you're preparing a dragon spam team, you're not gonna want to be using DD Mega Altaria and DD Dnite alongside one another because it's a waste. You should instead be focusing on hazard control, trappers, and generally covering threats in the metagame.

I think with the insane power, speed and general variety creep, teamslots are more valuable than ever. I guarantee we've all been in that position where we think we've cracked the perfect team only to go over it one last time and realise: "oh fuck, where's my spinner?"

Scarf Kyurem-B is actually pretty good imo it allows to outspeed and OHKO top tier threats such as landorus, Greninja, non-scarf Latios, Dragonite at +1 ma whole bunch of new and old megas, can even bypass sturdy and multiscale and levitate which is definitely a plus. In fact, unless I'm forgetting something, Kyurem-B is the only OU pokemon that can single handedly outspeed and OHKO every single S rank pokemon in OU.
Also, what are everyone's thoughts on Slurpuffs being put in rank D or perhaps even C-? I for one believe he should be put in rank D because drain punch and shit.

Yeah, it definitely has its uses, but from personal experience (especially against better players) it was just a momentum killer because Scarf is always scouted for. Outrage spam is infuriatingly bad these days, and there just aren't many of Kyube's moves I fancy being locked into. Personal preference I guess, maybe my mind will change about Scarf once I've tried it out a bit more.

Mega Swampert should go to B. Reason being, it is not as good as Kingdra or Kabutops on Rain teams. It's not as powerful as them, especially Kingdra, it's not as fast, and Swift Swim doesn't function for a turn.

It doesn't provide any utility against offensive teams than King and Kabu don't already provide. Kingdra alone wins the 1v1 matchup against 95% of the meta, very few things can avoid getting one-shot from Specs Hydro Pump in Rain or Specs Meteor.

Its lower power makes it not as good against stall.

As bulky as it is, I find myself preferring Mega Metagross (Fire weakness is nullified in Rain) or especially Mega Altaria (checks electrics similarly to Swampert, Heal Bell can cure swimmers of prankster t-wave,) both bulky attackers and wincons that function outside of Rain. Furthermore, the no swift swim thing means it has to take at least one hit... Kingdra rarely has to take hits except against priority, and 85/95/95 is not that frail to begin with.

I don't know if it's experience but I can't help disagreeing with peoples' opinions on MegaPert. He's SO damn bulky, and while I agree that it's annoying SS doesn't activate for a turn, when it is activated most of offense can go and cry in a corner, something Megagross can't boast to the same degree. I had a dude messaging me saying that he felt no rain 'mons should be moving up, but MegaPert is just such a good, bulky cleaner, especially in conjunction with his wallbreaker rain partners, and idk he just feels less like dead weight outside of rain because he's still crazy bulky and still hits like a truck (STAB EQ uh, yuh). Just opinions I suppose, but I really think he should move up.