Lower Tiers ADV Little Cup

Status
Not open for further replies.
Abra @ Salac Berry (does that berry exist in gen 3?)
Nature: Timid
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: Max Special Atk, Max Speed
Moves:
~ Fire Punch
~ Thunder Punch
~ Ice Punch
~ Substitute

Strategy: Sub up until Salac Berry, OHKO whatever comes in.
 
This ban puts the metagame in the right direction. After all, we now have something that walls Doduo without being trapped. =_=

Edit: that being said, trapinch is still a great partner
 
This ban puts the metagame in the right direction. After all, we now have something that walls Doduo without being trapped. =_=

Edit: that being said, trapinch is still a great partner
I have to say, statements like this show the lack of thought put into a lot of the reasoning behind the Diglett ban votes. Trapinch was hilariously better than Diglett in Adv LC for reasons such as:

1. It can take a hit - doesn't need 50/50 to beat Voltorb/Elekid.
2. It hits harder - doesn't need to use CB to actually dent things and give the opponent a free turn.
3. Has QA to beat users.

Lack of Speed only really matters against a few Pokemon strong enough to actually OHKO Trapinch (maybe a Chinchou Surf?) but besides that, it loses out on a lot.

Honestly, I rarely used Diglett but I relied on other people using it for a few teams; take that as you will.

On another note:

I expect fast threats like Ponyta and even possibly Houndour to rise without needing Salac or worrying about Diglett, they can bypass a lot of their counters with SunnyBeam.
 
I have to say, statements like this show the lack of thought put into a lot of the reasoning behind the Diglett ban votes. Trapinch was hilariously better than Diglett in Adv LC for reasons such as:

1. It can take a hit - doesn't need 50/50 to beat Voltorb/Elekid.
2. It hits harder - doesn't need to use CB to actually dent things and give the opponent a free turn.
3. Has QA to beat users.

Lack of Speed only really matters against a few Pokemon strong enough to actually OHKO Trapinch (maybe a Chinchou Surf?) but besides that, it loses out on a lot.

Honestly, I rarely used Diglett but I relied on other people using it for a few teams; take that as you will.

On another note:

I expect fast threats like Ponyta and even possibly Houndour to rise without needing Salac or worrying about Diglett, they can bypass a lot of their counters with SunnyBeam.
Putting my reasoning for banning Diglett here so that you can see that there was, in fact, thought going into the Diglett ban.
I'm voting ban for Diglett. My explanation is as follows:

Diglett is an amazing Pokemon in ADV LC, no one's going to argue that. The question is whether or not it is broken and/or overcentralizing in the ADV LC metagame at this point in time.

I believe that Diglett should be banned for the outlined reasons:
Pros and Cons of Diggy
+Outspeeds entire meta bar Elekid and Voltorb
+Hits very hard with CB especially since it has perfect neutral coverage with EdgeQuake (SlideQuake??) and the lack of Eviolite in ADV (Proof: It can OHKO or 2HKO literally every Pokemon in ranks S through C)
+Can trap and kill checks and counters to other sweepers
+Has very few viable checks and counters
+Lack of team preview demands preservation of checks

-Frail
-Gives opponent a free turn every time it gets a KO
-Can't trap Flying types and Levitaters

Full explanation:

Diglett is overcentralizing in the current metagame. The lack of Choice Scarf in ADV means that nothing is guaranteed to outspeed DIglett, and the only two that have a chance of outspeeding it are weak to Diglett's STAB, meaning they run the risk of getting OHKOed. The metagame is also made less bulky with the lack of Eviolite, meaning that Diglett hits significantly harder than in modern ORAS LC. I've run a very large number of calcs- I've calced Diglett versus every Pokemon from S to C Rank- and Diglett hits very, very hard with a Choice Band. In fact, not accounting for Sitrus Berry, literally nothing in those ranks avoids being 2HKOed, and almost everything that avoids the OHKO can't check Diglett unless they're at full health. This is in part because of Diglett's famed EdgeQuake coverage (I suppose it's "SlideQuake" in ADV but that doesn't sound as cool), which hits every Pokemon in the tier at least neutrally. And that's not the end of end of it- no, as well as being a devastating wallbreaker in its own right, Diglett can also be paired with a sweeper like Zigzagoon to trap and eliminate its checks and counters. An argument I've seen against banning Diglett is that it's absurdly frail- it has an HP stat of 10. That's true, Diglett dies at the drop of a hat, but Pokemon can rarely hit it before it KOs them- priority is very rare in ADV, and the two Pokemon that have a chance to outspeed it are both OHKOed by Earthquake. The biggest problem with Diglett, though, is that it has few solid checks and counters, and the few Pokemon that can check it are rarely viable. This is compounded by the lack of team preview in ADV- not only are you almost forced to run a questionably viable Pokemon specifically for Diglett which often has to be at full health to reliably check Diglett- because you have to preserve a Pokemon just so you don't lose to Diglett, which forces you to play very cautiously, but in the event that your opponent doesn't have a Diglett, this check is often dead weight. This means that even in battles where Diglett is not even on either player's team, it is still influencing the playstyle of both players, as well as forcing them to run Pokemon specifically for Diglett.
As for the cons of Diglett, there are very few. Diglett is frail, but I've already covered that argument above. Probably the biggest problem with Diglett is that it gives the opponent a free turn every time it gets a KO. This is simply the opportunity cost of using Diglett, and it doesn't outweigh all of Diglett's positive traits in my eyes. It also can't trap Pokemon that are immune to Ground, but those are not very common in the metagame.

TL;DR: Diglett is just too good in this metagame. It has few viable checks and counters, and players are forced to run them so that they don't just lose to Diglett. I am voting BAN for Diglett.
Diglett Versus S through C Ranks (NOW COLOR CODED! :D)

Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Diglett: 26-31 (152.9 - 182.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(26, 26, 26, 27, 27, 27, 28, 28, 28, 29, 29, 29, 30, 30, 30, 31)
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Elekid: 47-56 (223.8 - 266.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(47, 48, 48, 49, 49, 50, 50, 51, 52, 52, 53, 53, 54, 54, 55, 56) elekid has 50% chance to win, diggy has 50% chance to beat diggy lol
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Wailmer: 23-28 (76.6 - 93.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes
(23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 26, 27, 27, 27, 28) wailmer can only switch in if it's undamaged
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Horsea: 17-21 (89.4 - 110.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 20, 20, 20, 20, 21) aerow says 0/36 is standard spread
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Porygon: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes
(18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22) not good odds
-1 Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Snubbull: 15-18 (68.1 - 81.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
(15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18) if this thing gets weakened/diggy switches in on it, snubbull gets to die
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Voltorb: 45-54 (225 - 270%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(45, 46, 46, 47, 48, 48, 49, 49, 50, 50, 51, 51, 52, 52, 53, 54) 50% chance to win speedtie
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Chinchou: 35-42 (140 - 168%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(35, 36, 36, 36, 37, 37, 38, 38, 39, 39, 39, 40, 40, 41, 41, 42) even 76/212+ gets ohkoed
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Pineco: 15-18 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18) maybe pineco has something to do outside of suicide lead
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Staryu: 18-22 (81.8 - 100%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes, 62.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22) unless it runs 196/236+ it doesn't have much of a chance
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Doduo: 23-28 (115 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 26, 27, 27, 27, 28) doduo really shouldn't be switching in unless diggy's locked into eq
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Ponyta: 32-38 (145.4 - 172.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(32, 32, 33, 33, 33, 34, 34, 34, 35, 35, 36, 36, 36, 37, 37, 38) thats with 76/236 lol
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Abra: 30-36 (157.8 - 189.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(30, 30, 31, 31, 32, 32, 32, 33, 33, 33, 34, 34, 34, 35, 35, 36) calcing abra for completions sake lol
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Cacnea: 14-17 (58.3 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17) so cac with 196/236+ actually seems to be one of the best checks lol
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Cubone: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 15) cubone too
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Larvitar: 40-48 (181.8 - 218.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(40, 41, 41, 42, 42, 43, 43, 44, 44, 45, 45, 46, 46, 47, 47, 48) not gonna be living that anytime soon lol
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Gastly: 13-16 (68.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16) lol gas the diggy check
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Kabuto: 32-38 (168.4 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(32, 32, 33, 33, 33, 34, 34, 34, 35, 35, 36, 36, 36, 37, 37, 38) kabuto is a thing????
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Exeggcute: 14-17 (63.6 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17) eggy is p good "check" (because literally nothing hasn't been ohkoed or 2hkoed yet)
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Koffing: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 12) 36/236+ is what i calced but
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Koffing: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 12) with 196/236+ oh and it cant be trapped so koffing is prolly best check in meta
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Ledyba: 54-64 (270 - 320%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(54, 55, 55, 56, 56, 57, 58, 58, 59, 60, 60, 61, 62, 62, 63, 64) completions sake
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Oddish: 20-24 (90.9 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
(20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24) idk what this runs lol
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Clamperl: 16-19 (80 - 95%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19) dk what this runs either
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Onix: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24) this is 76/236+ onix, base 160 def, still an ohko
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Trapinch: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24) 156/76 is what eren says this runs
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Baltoy: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19) eren's spread
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Bellsprout: 23-28 (109.5 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 26, 27, 27, 27, 28) idk what this runs so calced with 0/0
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Duskull: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16) used spread from that spikes team on page 1
-1 Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Growlithe: 22-26 (88 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 26) 236/236+
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Lotad: 21-25 (105 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25) idk what this runs or why its c rank
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Mankey: 22-27 (104.7 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(22, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 27) dont think these run bulk so i have 36/76 in calc
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Poliwag: 22-27 (104.7 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(22, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 27) not today
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Rhyhorn: 25-30 (92.5 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
(25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 27, 27, 27, 27, 28, 28, 28, 29, 29, 29, 30) 196/236+ gets guaranteed ohko after 1 spike
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Anorith: 17-20 (77.2 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 20) anorith is surprisingly bluk
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Azurill: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24) 0/116
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Carvanha: 30-36 (142.8 - 171.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(30, 30, 31, 31, 32, 32, 32, 33, 33, 33, 34, 34, 34, 35, 35, 36) didnt even bother calcing any spreads other than 0/0 because carv is frail af
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Drowzee: 22-27 (88 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(22, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 27) 196/0 i dont really know what this mon runs, the only thing i know about it is one time the viability rankings wasted like one and a half pages on this shit
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Houndour: 52-62 (247.6 - 295.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(52, 53, 53, 54, 55, 55, 56, 57, 57, 58, 58, 59, 60, 60, 61, 62) completions sake
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Magby: 47-56 (223.8 - 266.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(47, 48, 48, 49, 49, 50, 50, 51, 52, 52, 53, 53, 54, 54, 55, 56) " diggy only takes ~30% from mach
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Smoochum: 30-36 (142.8 - 171.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(30, 30, 31, 31, 32, 32, 32, 33, 33, 33, 34, 34, 34, 35, 35, 36) "
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Spinarak: 22-26 (95.6 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
(22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 26) is p good for a thot, running aerow's sexy spread​
 
Putting my reasoning for banning Diglett here so that you can see that there was, in fact, thought going into the Diglett ban.
I'm voting ban for Diglett. My explanation is as follows:

Diglett is an amazing Pokemon in ADV LC, no one's going to argue that. The question is whether or not it is broken and/or overcentralizing in the ADV LC metagame at this point in time.

I believe that Diglett should be banned for the outlined reasons:
Pros and Cons of Diggy
+Outspeeds entire meta bar Elekid and Voltorb
+Hits very hard with CB especially since it has perfect neutral coverage with EdgeQuake (SlideQuake??) and the lack of Eviolite in ADV (Proof: It can OHKO or 2HKO literally every Pokemon in ranks S through C)
+Can trap and kill checks and counters to other sweepers
+Has very few viable checks and counters
+Lack of team preview demands preservation of checks

-Frail
-Gives opponent a free turn every time it gets a KO
-Can't trap Flying types and Levitaters

Full explanation:

Diglett is overcentralizing in the current metagame. The lack of Choice Scarf in ADV means that nothing is guaranteed to outspeed DIglett, and the only two that have a chance of outspeeding it are weak to Diglett's STAB, meaning they run the risk of getting OHKOed. The metagame is also made less bulky with the lack of Eviolite, meaning that Diglett hits significantly harder than in modern ORAS LC. I've run a very large number of calcs- I've calced Diglett versus every Pokemon from S to C Rank- and Diglett hits very, very hard with a Choice Band. In fact, not accounting for Sitrus Berry, literally nothing in those ranks avoids being 2HKOed, and almost everything that avoids the OHKO can't check Diglett unless they're at full health. This is in part because of Diglett's famed EdgeQuake coverage (I suppose it's "SlideQuake" in ADV but that doesn't sound as cool), which hits every Pokemon in the tier at least neutrally. And that's not the end of end of it- no, as well as being a devastating wallbreaker in its own right, Diglett can also be paired with a sweeper like Zigzagoon to trap and eliminate its checks and counters. An argument I've seen against banning Diglett is that it's absurdly frail- it has an HP stat of 10. That's true, Diglett dies at the drop of a hat, but Pokemon can rarely hit it before it KOs them- priority is very rare in ADV, and the two Pokemon that have a chance to outspeed it are both OHKOed by Earthquake. The biggest problem with Diglett, though, is that it has few solid checks and counters, and the few Pokemon that can check it are rarely viable. This is compounded by the lack of team preview in ADV- not only are you almost forced to run a questionably viable Pokemon specifically for Diglett which often has to be at full health to reliably check Diglett- because you have to preserve a Pokemon just so you don't lose to Diglett, which forces you to play very cautiously, but in the event that your opponent doesn't have a Diglett, this check is often dead weight. This means that even in battles where Diglett is not even on either player's team, it is still influencing the playstyle of both players, as well as forcing them to run Pokemon specifically for Diglett.
As for the cons of Diglett, there are very few. Diglett is frail, but I've already covered that argument above. Probably the biggest problem with Diglett is that it gives the opponent a free turn every time it gets a KO. This is simply the opportunity cost of using Diglett, and it doesn't outweigh all of Diglett's positive traits in my eyes. It also can't trap Pokemon that are immune to Ground, but those are not very common in the metagame.

TL;DR: Diglett is just too good in this metagame. It has few viable checks and counters, and players are forced to run them so that they don't just lose to Diglett. I am voting BAN for Diglett.
Diglett Versus S through C Ranks (NOW COLOR CODED! :D)

Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Diglett: 26-31 (152.9 - 182.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(26, 26, 26, 27, 27, 27, 28, 28, 28, 29, 29, 29, 30, 30, 30, 31)
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Elekid: 47-56 (223.8 - 266.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(47, 48, 48, 49, 49, 50, 50, 51, 52, 52, 53, 53, 54, 54, 55, 56) elekid has 50% chance to win, diggy has 50% chance to beat diggy lol
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Wailmer: 23-28 (76.6 - 93.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes
(23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 26, 27, 27, 27, 28) wailmer can only switch in if it's undamaged
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Horsea: 17-21 (89.4 - 110.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 20, 20, 20, 20, 21) aerow says 0/36 is standard spread
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Porygon: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes
(18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22) not good odds
-1 Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Snubbull: 15-18 (68.1 - 81.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
(15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18) if this thing gets weakened/diggy switches in on it, snubbull gets to die
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Voltorb: 45-54 (225 - 270%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(45, 46, 46, 47, 48, 48, 49, 49, 50, 50, 51, 51, 52, 52, 53, 54) 50% chance to win speedtie
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Chinchou: 35-42 (140 - 168%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(35, 36, 36, 36, 37, 37, 38, 38, 39, 39, 39, 40, 40, 41, 41, 42) even 76/212+ gets ohkoed
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Pineco: 15-18 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18) maybe pineco has something to do outside of suicide lead
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Staryu: 18-22 (81.8 - 100%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes, 62.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22) unless it runs 196/236+ it doesn't have much of a chance
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Doduo: 23-28 (115 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 26, 27, 27, 27, 28) doduo really shouldn't be switching in unless diggy's locked into eq
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Ponyta: 32-38 (145.4 - 172.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(32, 32, 33, 33, 33, 34, 34, 34, 35, 35, 36, 36, 36, 37, 37, 38) thats with 76/236 lol
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Abra: 30-36 (157.8 - 189.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(30, 30, 31, 31, 32, 32, 32, 33, 33, 33, 34, 34, 34, 35, 35, 36) calcing abra for completions sake lol
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Cacnea: 14-17 (58.3 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17) so cac with 196/236+ actually seems to be one of the best checks lol
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Cubone: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 15) cubone too
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Larvitar: 40-48 (181.8 - 218.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(40, 41, 41, 42, 42, 43, 43, 44, 44, 45, 45, 46, 46, 47, 47, 48) not gonna be living that anytime soon lol
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Gastly: 13-16 (68.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16) lol gas the diggy check
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Kabuto: 32-38 (168.4 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(32, 32, 33, 33, 33, 34, 34, 34, 35, 35, 36, 36, 36, 37, 37, 38) kabuto is a thing????
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Exeggcute: 14-17 (63.6 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17) eggy is p good "check" (because literally nothing hasn't been ohkoed or 2hkoed yet)
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Koffing: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 12) 36/236+ is what i calced but
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Koffing: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 12) with 196/236+ oh and it cant be trapped so koffing is prolly best check in meta
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Ledyba: 54-64 (270 - 320%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(54, 55, 55, 56, 56, 57, 58, 58, 59, 60, 60, 61, 62, 62, 63, 64) completions sake
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Oddish: 20-24 (90.9 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
(20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24) idk what this runs lol
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Clamperl: 16-19 (80 - 95%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19) dk what this runs either
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Onix: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24) this is 76/236+ onix, base 160 def, still an ohko
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Trapinch: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24) 156/76 is what eren says this runs
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Baltoy: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19) eren's spread
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Bellsprout: 23-28 (109.5 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 26, 27, 27, 27, 28) idk what this runs so calced with 0/0
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Duskull: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16) used spread from that spikes team on page 1
-1 Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Growlithe: 22-26 (88 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 26) 236/236+
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Lotad: 21-25 (105 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25) idk what this runs or why its c rank
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Mankey: 22-27 (104.7 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(22, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 27) dont think these run bulk so i have 36/76 in calc
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Poliwag: 22-27 (104.7 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(22, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 27) not today
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Rhyhorn: 25-30 (92.5 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
(25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 27, 27, 27, 27, 28, 28, 28, 29, 29, 29, 30) 196/236+ gets guaranteed ohko after 1 spike
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Anorith: 17-20 (77.2 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 20) anorith is surprisingly bluk
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Azurill: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24) 0/116
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Carvanha: 30-36 (142.8 - 171.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(30, 30, 31, 31, 32, 32, 32, 33, 33, 33, 34, 34, 34, 35, 35, 36) didnt even bother calcing any spreads other than 0/0 because carv is frail af
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Drowzee: 22-27 (88 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(22, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 27) 196/0 i dont really know what this mon runs, the only thing i know about it is one time the viability rankings wasted like one and a half pages on this shit
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Houndour: 52-62 (247.6 - 295.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(52, 53, 53, 54, 55, 55, 56, 57, 57, 58, 58, 59, 60, 60, 61, 62) completions sake
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Magby: 47-56 (223.8 - 266.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(47, 48, 48, 49, 49, 50, 50, 51, 52, 52, 53, 53, 54, 54, 55, 56) " diggy only takes ~30% from mach
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Smoochum: 30-36 (142.8 - 171.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(30, 30, 31, 31, 32, 32, 32, 33, 33, 33, 34, 34, 34, 35, 35, 36) "
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Spinarak: 22-26 (95.6 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
(22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 26) is p good for a thot, running aerow's sexy spread​

I read those already.....I made that statement after reading the submissions.

I'm not going to call calc-spamming a lazy way of arguing a point simply because of the time it takes, but it, as I originally said, does not show a lot of "thought" simply to list numbers without much context or relevance. Furthermore, lots of valuable information can be lost within the list. For example, when it fails to KO a Pokemon like Gastly, - things like that are overrun when you calced the 300% on Houndour....

Ironically, as well, there were no calcs of any attacks vs Diglett, which is one of the primary reasons why the trade-off of Diglett revenge killing + free turn is not worth it. You needed to sacrifice it to get it in. This is where it is evident that my point still stands. All of those points are either based on things Trapinch does better or on its Speed. Speed is not alone enough to actually push Diglett over Trapinch when Trapinch can actually switch into Elekid or Voltorb. For the "lack of thought" argument to stick, all I would need to show is that Trapinch is comparable to Diglett, if not better. Its Speed in most situations does not matter. Ironically, as shown in a lot of those calcs, Trapinch actually does better against a lot of those Pokemon.
 
Last edited:
> trapinch was a better trapper

Stop trolling. Don't even try saying that Trapinch is better than Diglett because it takes weak hits. The mon itself isn't as feasible because it can't be used over and over like Diglett. Have fun being fucked by stuff like Chou, Cacnes, Wailmer, and Porygon
 
> trapinch was a better trapper

Stop trolling. Don't even try saying that Trapinch is better than Diglett because it takes weak hits. The mon itself isn't as feasible because it can't be used over and over like Diglett. Have fun being fucked by stuff like Chou, Cacnes, Wailmer, and Porygon
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Porygon: 16-19 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO- loses
Wailmer clean OHKOes.
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Cacnea: 14-17 (58.3 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Cacnea clean OHKOes. Also I prefer HP Bug on Diglett but it still doesn't KO. Needle Arm can 3HKO Trapinch after Sitrus, btw.
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Porygon: 16-19 (61.5 - 73%)
Porygon clean OHKOes (Porygon Ice Beam vs. Diglett: 20-24 (111.1 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO). 3HKOes Trapinch after Sitrus, btw.

Chinchou is OHKOed but outpaces Diglett after an agility or endure + salac. Trapinch can still KO it if it tries to set up Salac or Agility

If you use Diglett "over and over" against anyone good that means you needed to sacrifice something "over and over" to get it in and then likely sacrifice something "over and over" once it revenge killed something because it is used as set up bait.

This above user's vote counted with that reasoning.

Infamy, this is what I'm talking about when I said the thought just wasn't there when considering Trapinch.
 

Aerow

rebel
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I can't see how Trapinch was overall better than Diglett at all, and the arguments here for it is simply lacking.

Wailmer: Why would someone try and trap Wailmer at 100% health with Diglett? No one. However, Diglett can trap and revengekill in comparison to Trapinch, which straight loses. Most Wailmers are KOed at 75%-80%.

Chinchou: First of all, Chinchou doesn't even get Agility in ADV LC. Salac Berry Chinchou isn't a good argument at all, everyone uses Chinchou for what its best at, being a bulky attacker. Salac Berry on Chinchou sounds bad honestly. If you run Salac Berry on Chinchou, that just shows how big of an impact Diglett had on the meta.

Porygon: Again, Diglett is only meant to trap a weakened Porygon, and around 75% is enough for the most common spread. And how does Trapinch beat Porygon?

Max SpA Porygon Ice Beam vs. 236 HP / 76 SpD Trapinch: 23-28 (95.8 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

If you run more specially defensive investment you lose to many physical attackers, and Porygon can then still just use Psychic first then Ice Beam.
_ _ _

Here's some more highly relevant Pokemon Trapinch can't trap and beat:

Elekid - if Trapinch have taken some minor damage
Voltorb - same here
Horsea
Snubbull - if you use Specially Defensive Trapinch
Staryu
Ponyta
Abra
Cubone
Larvitar
Poliwag

This is just a few examples of huge threats Trapinch can't trap and beat, and most of these Pokemon Diglett can trap easily. Trapinch isn't a bad Pokemon, I certainly want it moved up on the viability rankings (I was actually thinking about nominating it higher up yesterday), but it isn't as huge threat as Diglett. If the opponent gets 1-2 layer of Spikes, Trapinch suddenly gets OHKOed by a ton of stuff. Its not like Trapinch can run a physically defensive and a specially defensive set at the same time either.
 
Last edited:
Chinchou is way more viable because of diggy being gone. I wasn't suggesting Diggy trap full health pory and wail, but it's capable of taking those mons on when they're weakened.

Which is kinda what diggy does.

Also lol @ people telling me trapinch calcs like I hadn't made them to put Trapinch on the map. But trying to say Diglett isn't as good as Trapinch is pretty dumb. There's also other ways of bringing in Diglett, like double switching 9_9, which Trapinch struggles to do.
 
Last edited:
I can't see how Trapinch was overall better than Diglett at all, and the arguments here for it is simply lacking.

Wailmer: Why would someone try and trap Wailmer at 100% health with Diglett? No one. However, Diglett can trap and revengekill in comparison to Trapinch, which straight loses. Most Wailmers are KOed at 75%-80%.

Chinchou: First of all, Chinchou doesn't even get Agility in ADV LC. Salac Berry Chinchou isn't a good argument at all, everyone uses Chinchou for what its best at, being a bulky attacker. Salac Berry on Chinchou sounds bad honestly. If you run Salac Berry on Chinchou, that just shows how big of an impact Diglett had on the meta.

Porygon: Again, Diglett is only meant to trap a weakened Porygon, and around 75% is enough for the most common spread. And how does Trapinch beat Porygon?

Max SpA Porygon Ice Beam vs. 236 HP / 76 SpD Trapinch: 23-28 (95.8 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

If you run more specially defensive investment you lose to many physical attackers, and Porygon can then still just use Psychic first then Ice Beam.
_ _ _

Here's some more highly relevant Pokemon Trapinch can't trap and beat:

Elekid - if Trapinch have taken some minor damage
Voltorb - same here
Horsea
Snubbull - if you use Specially Defensive Trapinch
Staryu
Ponyta
Abra
Cubone
Larvitar
Poliwag

This is just a few examples of huge threats Trapinch can't trap and beat, and most of these Pokemon Diglett can trap easily. Trapinch isn't a bad Pokemon, I certainly want it moved up on the viability rankings (I was actually thinking about nominating it higher up yesterday), but it isn't as huge threat as Diglett. If the opponent gets 1-2 layer of Spikes, Trapinch suddenly gets OHKOed by a ton of stuff. Its not like Trapinch can run a physically defensive and a specially defensive set at the same time either.
(my bad about Agility Chou I confused myself with DPP...)

It's a little unfair to say that by now you still think Salac is not a viable option on a Pokemon, especially one with as much sweeping potential as Chinchou. Honestly, it only really fails against teams with Doduo (who can't switch in) and TRAPINCH.

Now to the other parts: I think the first thing that jumped to my head when I read this is "Sitrus Berry". It really hinders these arguments in two ways.

The first section of your post is claiming that Diglett can still trap and KO those Pokemon that it can't switch into (maybe Chinchou or Porygon Electric-type attacks) if they are weakened. I would say so what? If either of those Pokemon, besides Porygon, is weakened it's because they've done their job. If you still have a full Sitrus Berry, why the hell are you not playing smart and activating it? Particularly with Wailmer who's either fast enough to use 2 attacks to make sure it gets hit or slow enough to take a hit before it OHKOes something with full powered Water Spout. Porygon is even harder to get weakened because you'll have to sacrifice something because it has Recycle -_-. I also never said that Trapinch beats Porygon I said it can be 3HKOed with the right investment. It definitely fairs better than Diglett in that regard.

You also say that, with Trapinch, Spikes eliminates its bulk. To that I will say again: Sitrus. You can switch into an attack that doesn't KO or into Spikes a few times and jump to full HP. It's a really powerful Berry on bulky Pokemon and I think this concept that Pokemon are constantly "weakened exactly into EQ range" is not realistic. If they're weakened, they've been spent and have done their job or that person is outplayed by the Diglett player - a point where a Diglett user should be able to get a KO without it being called broken.

As a side note: a few of the Pokemon actually lose to Trapinch and even beat Diglett.

Trapinch can beat Larvitar without a DD (which Diglett loses to as well).
Ponyta can only beat Trapinch if the Sun is set up - it can actually switch into Fire Blast and win. It also beats Salac Ponyta.
Snubbull easily survives anything Diglett throws at it and wins. Trapinch can win depending on the set (not CB).
Staryu can be EV'd to survive a CB Earthquake from Diglett.
Horsea can and should be EV'd to survive an Earthquake from Diglett.
If Cubone is EV'd with any Defense, it beats both of them. Trapinch can actually win vs Cubone with Bonemerang instead of EQ not that it makes sense to use that in a Sitrus Berry-filled game.
Trapinch also beats Abra because it usually survives Ice Punch and easily KOes it. QA also does 50%.....

I mean if you're talking about picking off severely weakened Pokemon Quick Attack does that without locking itself in.

That brings up the next thing you're understating/ignoring is the other half of my argument which was not being locked into an attack. Literally every time I saw a Diglett, it would need to come in after I KOed something. I would then lol and either KO it with Salac or get KOed (if that mon was spent, you know, KOing something to get Diglett in....) and then set up a Substitute with Gastly or Exeggcute or anything that it Diglett can't beat and proceed to get more KOes and then rinse repeat. I'm getting 2 KOes for the price of 1 every time.

And no, I don't leave my "one Pokemon that beats Doduo" out in the open for Diglett to trap and KO...especially considering its usually an Electric-type late-game sweeper like Voltorb or Elekid which I would never leave out in the open without setting a Substitute up or bring out at the end of the game. Doduo can come in and then I can set up a Substitute and kill something rather than letting my opponent sacrifice something to bring in Diglett to 50/50 my Electric-type.

You've played me and watched me play before - how can you say this Diglett trapping strategy is viable after seeing it lose almost every time? Hell, the only time I've actually seen anyone lose to a Diglett is when it was locked into CB Rock Slide and flinched Gastly and other Pokemon 3 times out of 4.

It's pretty telling to me that even if the arguments being put forth were reasonable, they are merely discussion is about "whether Diglett was good or not" and not "was it broken?" Trapinch against a good player is harder to deal with than Diglett - it fits in very nicely in the area of what Diglett cannot do and just further shows the lack of consideration of how to play against a Diglett team. As in, unlike with Trapinch, it's easy to throw in Substitute or a Speed increasing move/berry on your moveset to prevent Diglett from safely revenge killing it as well as packing a powerful set-up mon that abuses locked-in Earthquake.

It's easier to just ban it, obviously.

Chinchou is way more viable because of diggy being gone. I wasn't suggesting Diggy trap full health pory and wail, but it's capable of taking those mons on when they're weakened.

Which is kinda what diggy does.

Also lol @ people telling me trapinch calcs like I hadn't made them to put Trapinch on the map. But trying to say Diglett isn't as good as Trapinch is pretty dumb. There's also other ways of bringing in Diglett, like double switching 9_9, which Trapinch struggles to do.
I think you need to change that middle statement to "which is kinda all diggy does." and you could also add a precedent few words saying "after sacrificing a pokemon to get Diglett in" and then a subsequent line "afterwards, Diglett will give the opponent a free turn to set up a stronger and more threatening pokemon".

Chinchou is more viable, sure. Lots of other things are less viable now too like Sub Exeggcute and Gastly who no longer can abuse their free turns. And what kind of logic is this anyway? If you banned Rock-types, certain normal-types would be more viable. If you banned Water-types, I'm sure Fire-types and Rock-types, Ground-types, etc would be more viable. Let's ban them all so we can have more viable Pokemon, fuck competitiveness right?....right.

....and ironically, those calcs I posted were with Diglett, not with Trapinch. As if you had the credibility in the first place to imply that you invented Trapinch and say things (again, ironically) like "lol @ x and y is pretty dumb"......well whatever you had is definitely gone after an inflammatory post like this. Aerow actually explains the arguments, despite me not agreeing with them or their reasonsing. You just say "it's dumb", ironically, usually in the middle of saying two things that are honestly quite silly or absurd. For example, I can tell you honestly think that a Trapinch user can't double switch? Why? And to make it even more clear, you're just furthering my point about the Diglett player having to outplay the opponent in order to be "good" after me pointing out that yes, Diglett can be good if that player outplays the other. That's practically the case with everything.

I think you should have just stuck with my post trying to change the topic of what to expect now that Diglett is gone instead of digging the "....well I guess we didn't consider x and y" hole deeper (pun is intended, deal with it).
 
Last edited:
(my bad about Agility Chou I confused myself with DPP...)

It's a little unfair to say that by now you still think Salac is not a viable option on a Pokemon, especially one with as much sweeping potential as Chinchou. Honestly, it only really fails against teams with Doduo (who can't switch in) and TRAPINCH.

Now to the other parts: I think the first thing that jumped to my head when I read this is "Sitrus Berry". It really hinders these arguments in two ways.

The first section of your post is claiming that Diglett can still trap and KO those Pokemon that it can't switch into (maybe Chinchou or Porygon Electric-type attacks) if they are weakened. I would say so what? If either of those Pokemon, besides Porygon, is weakened it's because they've done their job. If you still have a full Sitrus Berry, why the hell are you not playing smart and activating it? Particularly with Wailmer who's either fast enough to use 2 attacks to make sure it gets hit or slow enough to take a hit before it OHKOes something with full powered Water Spout. Porygon is even harder to get weakened because you'll have to sacrifice something because it has Recycle -_-. I also never said that Trapinch beats Porygon I said it can be 3HKOed with the right investment. It definitely fairs better than Diglett in that regard.

You also say that, with Trapinch, Spikes eliminates its bulk. To that I will say again: Sitrus. You can switch into an attack that doesn't KO or into Spikes a few times and jump to full HP. It's a really powerful Berry on bulky Pokemon and I think this concept that Pokemon are constantly "weakened exactly into EQ range" is not realistic. If they're weakened, they've been spent and have done their job or that person is outplayed by the Diglett player - a point where a Diglett user should be able to get a KO without it being called broken.

As a side note: a few of the Pokemon actually lose to Trapinch and even beat Diglett.

Trapinch can beat Larvitar without a DD (which Diglett loses to as well).
Ponyta can only beat Trapinch if the Sun is set up - it can actually switch into Fire Blast and win. It also beats Salac Ponyta.
So it can't switch in if Pony uses it's most common first move... k.
Snubbull easily survives anything Diglett throws at it and wins. Trapinch can win depending on the set (not CB).
Snubbull beats both.
Staryu can be EV'd to survive a CB Earthquake from Diglett.
simultaneously compromising its ability as an attacker. k.
Horsea can and should be EV'd to survive an Earthquake from Diglett.
any prior damage (ie. spikes) will put horsea into ko range.
If Cubone is EV'd with any Defense, it beats both of them. Trapinch can actually win vs Cubone with Bonemerang instead of EQ not that it makes sense to use that in a Sitrus Berry-filled game.
Trapinch loses either way lol
Trapinch also beats Abra because it usually survives Ice Punch and easily KOes it. QA also does 50%.....
Except item boosted Abra kicks Trapinch in the ass.


I mean if you're talking about picking off severely weakened Pokemon Quick Attack does that without locking itself in.

That brings up the next thing you're understating/ignoring is the other half of my argument which was not being locked into an attack. Literally every time I saw a Diglett, it would need to come in after I KOed something. I would then lol and either KO it with Salac or get KOed (if that mon was spent, you know, KOing something to get Diglett in....) and then set up a Substitute with Gastly or Exeggcute or anything that it Diglett can't beat and proceed to get more KOes and then rinse repeat. I'm getting 2 KOes for the price of 1 every time.

Except you aren't necessarily getting those kos. Stuff like Exeggute aren't win conditions that just rip every mon in the meta to shreds.

And no, I don't leave my "one Pokemon that beats Doduo" out in the open for Diglett to trap and KO...especially considering its usually an Electric-type late-game sweeper like Voltorb or Elekid which I would never leave out in the open without setting a Substitute up.

If Elekid is your stop for Doduo, you've obviously not played as much as you claim. Agility Doduo says hi :l

You've played me and watched me play before - how can you say this Diglett trapping strategy is viable after seeing it lose almost every time? Hell, the only time I've actually seen anyone lose to a Diglett is when it was locked into CB Rock Slide and flinched Gastly and other Pokemon 3 times out of 4.

and yet i've played games where it's torn apart slightly weakened teams.

It's pretty telling to me that even if the arguments being put forth were reasonable, they are merely discussion is about "whether Diglett was good or not" and not "was it broken?" Trapinch fits in very nicely in the area of what Diglett cannot do and just further shows the lack of consideration of how to play against a Diglett team. It's "easier" to just ban it, obviously.

Accusing the pro-ban side of laziness doesn't really hold water when we're talking about a mon that 2hkos a large portion of the fucking meta.

I think you need to change that middle statement to "which is kinda all diggy does." and you could also add a precedent few words saying "after sacrificing a pokemon to get Diglett in" and then a subsequent line "afterwards, Diglett will give the opponent a free turn to set up a stronger and more threatening pokemon".

Or you could double switch. or slow turn out. even then, it's not like you're sacrificing a mon JUST to get diglett in. if it's that necessary it come in, then obviously said threat ought to warrant sacrifice.

Chinchou is more viable, sure. Lots of other things are less viable now too like Sub Exeggcute and Gastly who no longer can abuse their free turns. And what kind of logic is this anyway? If you banned Rock-types, certain normal-types would be more viable. If you banned Water-types, I'm sure Fire-types and Rock-types, Ground-types, etc would be more viable. Let's ban them all so we can have more viable Pokemon, fuck competitiveness right?....right.

that was actually directed at aerow.

....and ironically, those calcs I posted were with Diglett, not with Trapinch. As if you had the credibility in the first place to imply that you invented Trapinch and say things

i used it before anyone else, and I convinced other players that it's viable. but okay, be a dick.

(again, ironically) like "lol @ x and y is pretty dumb"......well whatever you had is definitely gone after an inflammatory post like this. Aerow actually explains the arguments, despite me not agreeing with them or their reasonsing. You just say "it's dumb", ironically, usually in the middle of saying two things that are honestly quite silly or absurd. For example, I can tell you honestly think that a Trapinch user can't double switch? Why? And to make it even more clear, you're just furthering my point about the Diglett player having to outplay the opponent in order to be "good" after me pointing out that yes, Diglett can be good if that player outplays the other. That's practically the case with everything.

you mentioned trapinch 3hkoing shit beside the full diglett calcs. Trapinch might be capable of double switching, but it doesn't have as much an issue. Trapinch isn't going to outspeed and KO hard hitting threats tho. Diglett isn't really that difficult to bring in since adv's threats are typically forcing checks in.

I think you should have just stuck with my post trying to change the topic of what to expect now that Diglett is gone instead of digging the "....well I guess we didn't consider x and y" hole deeper (pun is intended, deal with it).

bolded responses.
 

Aerow

rebel
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
(my bad about Agility Chou I confused myself with DPP...)

It's a little unfair to say that by now you still think Salac is not a viable option on a Pokemon, especially one with as much sweeping potential as Chinchou. Honestly, it only really fails against teams with Doduo (who can't switch in) and TRAPINCH.

Now to the other parts: I think the first thing that jumped to my head when I read this is "Sitrus Berry". It really hinders these arguments in two ways.

The first section of your post is claiming that Diglett can still trap and KO those Pokemon that it can't switch into (maybe Chinchou or Porygon Electric-type attacks) if they are weakened. I would say so what? If either of those Pokemon, besides Porygon, is weakened it's because they've done their job. If you still have a full Sitrus Berry, why the hell are you not playing smart and activating it? Particularly with Wailmer who's either fast enough to use 2 attacks to make sure it gets hit or slow enough to take a hit before it OHKOes something with full powered Water Spout. Porygon is even harder to get weakened because you'll have to sacrifice something because it has Recycle -_-. I also never said that Trapinch beats Porygon I said it can be 3HKOed with the right investment. It definitely fairs better than Diglett in that regard.

You also say that, with Trapinch, Spikes eliminates its bulk. To that I will say again: Sitrus. You can switch into an attack that doesn't KO or into Spikes a few times and jump to full HP. It's a really powerful Berry on bulky Pokemon and I think this concept that Pokemon are constantly "weakened exactly into EQ range" is not realistic. If they're weakened, they've been spent and have done their job or that person is outplayed by the Diglett player - a point where a Diglett user should be able to get a KO without it being called broken.

As a side note: a few of the Pokemon actually lose to Trapinch and even beat Diglett.

Trapinch can beat Larvitar without a DD (which Diglett loses to as well).
Ponyta can only beat Trapinch if the Sun is set up - it can actually switch into Fire Blast and win. It also beats Salac Ponyta.
Snubbull easily survives anything Diglett throws at it and wins. Trapinch can win depending on the set (not CB).
Staryu can be EV'd to survive a CB Earthquake from Diglett.
Horsea can and should be EV'd to survive an Earthquake from Diglett.
If Cubone is EV'd with any Defense, it beats both of them. Trapinch can actually win vs Cubone with Bonemerang instead of EQ not that it makes sense to use that in a Sitrus Berry-filled game.
Trapinch also beats Abra because it usually survives Ice Punch and easily KOes it. QA also does 50%.....

I mean if you're talking about picking off severely weakened Pokemon Quick Attack does that without locking itself in.

That brings up the next thing you're understating/ignoring is the other half of my argument which was not being locked into an attack. Literally every time I saw a Diglett, it would need to come in after I KOed something. I would then lol and either KO it with Salac or get KOed (if that mon was spent, you know, KOing something to get Diglett in....) and then set up a Substitute with Gastly or Exeggcute or anything that it Diglett can't beat and proceed to get more KOes and then rinse repeat. I'm getting 2 KOes for the price of 1 every time.

And no, I don't leave my "one Pokemon that beats Doduo" out in the open for Diglett to trap and KO...especially considering its usually an Electric-type late-game sweeper like Voltorb or Elekid which I would never leave out in the open without setting a Substitute up or bring out at the end of the game. Doduo can come in and then I can set up a Substitute and kill something rather than letting my opponent sacrifice something to bring in Diglett to 50/50 my Electric-type.

You've played me and watched me play before - how can you say this Diglett trapping strategy is viable after seeing it lose almost every time? Hell, the only time I've actually seen anyone lose to a Diglett is when it was locked into CB Rock Slide and flinched Gastly and other Pokemon 3 times out of 4.

It's pretty telling to me that even if the arguments being put forth were reasonable, they are merely discussion is about "whether Diglett was good or not" and not "was it broken?" Trapinch against a good player is harder to deal with than Diglett - it fits in very nicely in the area of what Diglett cannot do and just further shows the lack of consideration of how to play against a Diglett team. As in, unlike with Trapinch, it's easy to throw in Substitute or a Speed increasing move/berry on your moveset to prevent Diglett from safely revenge killing it as well as packing a powerful set-up mon that abuses locked-in Earthquake.

It's easier to just ban it, obviously.



I think you need to change that middle statement to "which is kinda all diggy does." and you could also add a precedent few words saying "after sacrificing a pokemon to get Diglett in" and then a subsequent line "afterwards, Diglett will give the opponent a free turn to set up a stronger and more threatening pokemon".

Chinchou is more viable, sure. Lots of other things are less viable now too like Sub Exeggcute and Gastly who no longer can abuse their free turns. And what kind of logic is this anyway? If you banned Rock-types, certain normal-types would be more viable. If you banned Water-types, I'm sure Fire-types and Rock-types, Ground-types, etc would be more viable. Let's ban them all so we can have more viable Pokemon, fuck competitiveness right?....right.

....and ironically, those calcs I posted were with Diglett, not with Trapinch. As if you had the credibility in the first place to imply that you invented Trapinch and say things (again, ironically) like "lol @ x and y is pretty dumb"......well whatever you had is definitely gone after an inflammatory post like this. Aerow actually explains the arguments, despite me not agreeing with them or their reasonsing. You just say "it's dumb", ironically, usually in the middle of saying two things that are honestly quite silly or absurd. For example, I can tell you honestly think that a Trapinch user can't double switch? Why? And to make it even more clear, you're just furthering my point about the Diglett player having to outplay the opponent in order to be "good" after me pointing out that yes, Diglett can be good if that player outplays the other. That's practically the case with everything.

I think you should have just stuck with my post trying to change the topic of what to expect now that Diglett is gone instead of digging the "....well I guess we didn't consider x and y" hole deeper (pun is intended, deal with it).
Its a lot easier to weaken Porygon and Wailmer than you make it sound like. The trick is basically to hit them with a move that does less than 50%, therefore not activating Sitrus Berry and not allowing Porygon to Recycle, and this is actually quite easy in my experience since they are both fairly bulky. And it's important to do so too, not only for letting Diglett revengekill (when Diglett was free), but also to limit Porygon's ability to use Recycle and weaken Wailmer's Water Spout.
 
Last edited:
bolded responses.
Bolding responses instead of multi-quoting, much like your arguments, is just lazy.
Snubbull beats both.

any prior damage (ie. spikes) will put horsea into ko range.

Trapinch loses either way lol

Except item boosted Abra kicks Trapinch in the ass.
CB Snubbull beats both, yes. That was my point. Diglett doesn't beat it so why does it matter that Trapinch doesn't?

Trapinch doesn't lose to Bonemerang Cubone because of Sitrus Berry. Diglett doesn't beat it so why does it matter that Trapinch doesn't?

Spikes was already addressed - it's easy enough to get your Pokemon in with full health because of Sitrus Berry. You can endure or simply play well and keep your Pokemon at full health by switching into things. Spikes arguably makes it easier, actually, because you don't even need to take a hit to trigger Sitrus Berry. Furthermore, in regards to Horsea, if it's taken enough damage to be weakened it's probably gotten Rain Dance up? Good luck KOing it without Quick Attack.

That abra comment is just icing on the cake. You claim to have used Trapinch but either you've been using it horribly or have still, after all that time, not figured out how it works. First of all, there is no such thing as Choice Specs in Adv. Second, remember how I wrote "Quick Attack does ~50%"? Well, you see, if Abra eats a Petaya Berry, it's at 25%, putting it at Quick Attack range. Nice try though, you almost had a point!

Except you aren't necessarily getting those kos. Stuff like Exeggute aren't win conditions that just rip every mon in the meta to shreds.
I feel like you don't understand how ADV works. You can Sleep something for a long time and either KO it with a move or it will switch out. You can then KO almost the entire metagame with pre-nerf Explosion and the other half with a STAB move coming off a high SpA.

If Elekid is your stop for Doduo, you've obviously not played as much as you claim. Agility Doduo says hi :l
I was referring to Band........................................................................................Agility Doduo is not as hard to survive a hit from so you can check it instead of revenge kill it. Do you even play this game?

Accusing the pro-ban side of laziness doesn't really hold water when we're talking about a mon that 2hkos a large portion of the fucking meta.
Oh sorry, it doesn't. Wait, why not?

The pro-ban camp spams calcs like Diglett OHKOing a bunch of EQ weak Pokemon and your eyes light up when you see it doing 300% to Houndour rather than paying attention to any context (like losing a mon to get Diglett in, Endure+Salac/Sitrus (keeping a mon at full HP), giving free set up once its locked into EQ). Most of these arguments have not even been addressed, and if they have, it's with other ill-thought out approaches. That is laziness.
Or you could double switch. or slow turn out. even then, it's not like you're sacrificing a mon JUST to get diglett in. if it's that necessary it come in, then obviously said threat ought to warrant sacrifice.
1) Slow-turning out is another cop-out argument. It's ADV, Substitute is a staple on so many offensive Pokemon. And if you were about to say "you can't reliably substitute against those Pokemon" I would simply lol at your Venonat and continue on with my day.

2) Same thing applies to Trapinch.

i used it before anyone else, and I convinced other players that it's viable. but okay, be a dick.
lol ok. How long have you been playing this game? That's what I thought. I'm sorry if it makes me a dick to poke holes in your (collective) logic, but you have to find a better way to deal with it then spitting out ad hominem posts without an inkling of legitimate substance.

I've been playing this game for a very long time and I still don't think I'm above supporting my arguments with facts and reason.

you mentioned trapinch 3hkoing shit beside the full diglett calcs. Trapinch might be capable of double switching, but it doesn't have as much an issue. Trapinch isn't going to outspeed and KO hard hitting threats tho. Diglett isn't really that difficult to bring in since adv's threats are typically forcing checks in.
Once I finished deciphering the second sentence: "Trapinch might be capable of double switch, but it doesn't have as much an issue", well i figured you meant that it doesn't have to but that would be a point for my side of the argument.

Once I finished deciphering the last sentence: "Diglett isn't really that difficult to bring in since adv's threats are typically forcing checks in" I figure you meant that if you have a powerful mon like Band Doduo, it's "obvious" that a check is coming in. Well, if you get outplayed that badly, yes, you're going to lose a Pokemon to Diglett. I've already covered this.

Maybe you're just trying to confuse me....?

Its a lot easier to weaken Porygon and Wailmer than you make it sound like. The trick is basically to hit them with a move that does less than 50%, therefore not activating Sitrus Berry and not allowing Porygon to Recycle, and this is actually quite easy in my experience since they are both fairly bulky. And it's important to do so too, not only for letting Diglett revengekill (when Diglett was free), but also to limit Porygon's ability to use Recycle and weaken Wailmer's Water Spout. Aside from that, boo replied to most of the other stuff in your post.
That's the idea, of course, but it's a form of outplaying which can't logically be part of a reason why something is better or worse. For example, in the same vein the strategy against that strategy is to not let it happen, as in, using reliable ways of reliably keeping your mons at full health (such as Endure + Sitrus Berry, switching into Spikes and other attacks).

And if I were you I'd avoid aligning myself with Boo.
 
Last edited:

Aerow

rebel
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I haven't aligned myself with anyone, I just agreed with some of the stuff he replied to on the top of your post (which was your reply to me), specifically the list of mons that I meant Trapinch can't beat. I do agree with you that many of boo's other arguments were fairly lacking.

Anyway, I feel the need to say that I have used Trapinch a lot, and I won't disagree with Trapinch being a great Pokemon, because it is. However, I don't feel its on par with Diglett due to the reasons you see in my posts above. I'll gladly describe even more if I get time.
 
Last edited:
Bolding responses instead of multi-quoting, much like your arguments, is just lazy.


CB Snubbull beats both, yes. That was my point. Diglett doesn't beat it so why does it matter that Trapinch doesn't?

Trapinch doesn't lose to Bonemerang Cubone because of Sitrus Berry. Diglett doesn't beat it so why does it matter that Trapinch doesn't?

Spikes was already addressed - it's easy enough to get your Pokemon in with full health because of Sitrus Berry. You can endure or simply play well and keep your Pokemon at full health by switching into things. Spikes arguably makes it easier, actually, because you don't even need to take a hit to trigger Sitrus Berry. Furthermore, in regards to Horsea, if it's taken enough damage to be weakened it's probably gotten Rain Dance up? Good luck KOing it without Quick Attack.

That abra comment is just icing on the cake. You claim to have used Trapinch but either you've been using it horribly or have still, after all that time, not figured out how it works. First of all, there is no such thing as Choice Specs in Adv. Second, remember how I wrote "Quick Attack does ~50%"? Well, you see, if Abra eats a Petaya Berry, it's at 25%, putting it at Quick Attack range. Nice try though, you almost had a point!



I feel like you don't understand how ADV works. You can Sleep something for a long time and either KO it with a move or it will switch out. You can then KO almost the entire metagame with pre-nerf Explosion and the other half with a STAB move coming off a high SpA.



I was referring to Band........................................................................................Agility Doduo is not as hard to survive a hit from so you can check it instead of revenge kill it. Do you even play this game?



Oh sorry, it doesn't. Wait, why not?

The pro-ban camp spams calcs like Diglett OHKOing a bunch of EQ weak Pokemon and your eyes light up when you see it doing 300% to Houndour rather than paying attention to any context (like losing a mon to get Diglett in, Endure+Salac/Sitrus (keeping a mon at full HP), giving free set up once its locked into EQ). Most of these arguments have not even been addressed, and if they have, it's with other ill-thought out approaches. That is laziness.


1) Slow-turning out is another cop-out argument. It's ADV, Substitute is a staple on so many offensive Pokemon. And if you were about to say "you can't reliably substitute against those Pokemon" I would simply lol at your Venonat and continue on with my day.

2) Same thing applies to Trapinch.



lol ok. How long have you been playing this game? That's what I thought. I'm sorry if it makes me a dick to poke holes in your (collective) logic, but you have to find a better way to deal with it then spitting out ad hominem posts without an inkling of legitimate substance.

I've been playing this game for a very long time and I still don't think I'm above supporting my arguments with facts and reason.



Once I finished deciphering the second sentence: "Trapinch might be capable of double switch, but it doesn't have as much an issue", well i figured you meant that it doesn't have to but that would be a point for my side of the argument.

Once I finished deciphering the last sentence: "Diglett isn't really that difficult to bring in since adv's threats are typically forcing checks in" I figure you meant that if you have a powerful mon like Band Doduo, it's "obvious" that a check is coming in. Well, if you get outplayed that badly, yes, you're going to lose a Pokemon to Diglett. I've already covered this.

Maybe you're just trying to confuse me....?



That's the idea, of course, but it's a form of outplaying which can't logically be part of a reason why something is better or worse. For example, in the same vein the strategy against that strategy is to not let it happen, as in, using reliable ways of reliably keeping your mons at full health (such as Endure + Sitrus Berry, switching into Spikes and other attacks).

And if I were you I'd avoid aligning myself with Boo.
Oh my god just stop talking. I was talking Twistedspoon Abra, because Petaya is very prone to Doduo, and more often than not will be forced out by Elekid and Voltorb. TS wins vs them. You've pointed out that Bonemerang isn't a good choice to use on Cubone, so there's really no reason to even try discussing it.

Agility Doduo is easily the most common set AND isn't something that you can just wall with whatever. When you're talking about Doduo, you don't get to select the lesser used set. Even then, Elekid/Voltorb aren't great checks.

Oh, and Sitrus isn't remotely an appropriate answer to Spikes damage, especially when I'm talking about fucking OHKOs.

I'm trying to point out the differences in how you play Trapinch and Diglett, because they're clearly different. When you say stuff like that people "deserve to lose" when they have their Doduo check trapped, i can't help but feel that you've forgotten about why Fletchdig was so popular. Diglett was just fine coming in on double switches and stuff under similar circumstances. What the fuck is different? I'm not suggesting that Trapinch can't double switch, but whether it can or not isn't relevant, because I'm not suggesting it an advantage. If you're going to make outright false or irrelevant arguments, I'm not going to be inclined to take either you or this discussion seriously.
 
Oh my god just stop talking. I was talking Twistedspoon Abra, because Petaya is very prone to Doduo, and more often than not will be forced out by Elekid and Voltorb. TS wins vs them. You've pointed out that Bonemerang isn't a good choice to use on Cubone, so there's really no reason to even try discussing it.
TwistedSpoon Abra Psychic vs. Trapinch: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Whoops.

Agility Doduo is easily the most common set AND isn't something that you can just wall with whatever. When you're talking about Doduo, you don't get to select the lesser used set. Even then, Elekid/Voltorb aren't great checks.
First of all, this is just a strawman, it barely even relates to the topic at hand and was just an example. Agility Doduo is great, Band is great, both are used. I was talking about CB Doduo, as an example of how to not be a bad player against Diglett. I guess it's not too odd that it completely went over your head.

Oh, and Sitrus isn't remotely an appropriate answer to Spikes damage, especially when I'm talking about fucking OHKOs.
You were talking about OHKOes? Let's see:

> trapinch was a better trapper

Stop trolling. Don't even try saying that Trapinch is better than Diglett because it takes weak hits. The mon itself isn't as feasible because it can't be used over and over like Diglett. Have fun being fucked by stuff like Chou, Cacnes, Wailmer, and Porygon
Remember those calcs you confused with Trapinch calcs. The ones of Diglett failing to OHKO these bolded Pokemon. Yea, they weren't OHKOes.

Sitrus Berry restores these Pokemon to full HP. Diglett would usually be coming in usually after a Pokemon takes a hit, triggering the Berry. Therefore, Spikes do not mean you're going to certainly be facing a weakened Pokemon. You can also Endure if all else fails.

I'm trying to point out the differences in how you play Trapinch and Diglett, because they're clearly different. When you say stuff like that people "deserve to lose" when they have their Doduo check trapped, i can't help but feel that you've forgotten about why Fletchdig was so popular. Diglett was just fine coming in on double switches and stuff under similar circumstances. What the fuck is different? I'm not suggesting that Trapinch can't double switch, but whether it can or not isn't relevant, because I'm not suggesting it an advantage. If you're going to make outright false or irrelevant arguments, I'm not going to be inclined to take either you or this discussion seriously.
Trapinch and Diglett are different, of course. But they can be used for the same purpose. Diglett has Speed, but its drawbacks far outweigh that. Trapinch can do almost anything that Diglett can in addition to taking a hit and avoid being set up bait, two things that make Diglett inefficient to use.

You are illustrating how hilariously misguided your point of view is by bringing FletchDig into this. Lets first and foremost clear this up: You are bringing up Gen 6 as an analogy to Gen 3. Oh, and Diglett was not banned or suspected in XY, so what was the purpose of that. Also, there is this thing called team preview and U-turn / Volt Switch which changes the entire dynamic of double-switching, making it more realistic to be able to get Diglett in. Fletchling has Swords Dance and PRIORITY Acrobatics that can only be walled effectively by a specific type of Pokemon. Diglett has access to Life Orb or Focus Sash (allowing it to take a hit) and Memento in XY and isn't as easily set up on. So what we've gathered from this analogy is that: Diglett is harder to use in Adv than in XY, where Diglett was not suspected or banned.

And suggesting that Trapinch cannot take advantage of double-switch is an absurd statement that I've already addressed in my Trapinch arguments and have no desire to repeat.

I think you're confusing me "being concerned with you not taking any argument seriously" with "I know you're not taking any of the arguments seriously" because it's easier to just not think about anything the same way it's easier just to ban Diglett then think about how to not lose to it.

All of this started because you posted something and it just struck me (and I'm sure you'd like to think it was just me) as ridiculous that your vote counts the same as all of the other people who have demonstrated that they're actually capable of rational thought.

In any event, this is getting out of hand so if you were going to stop posting that wouldn't be the worst thing.
 
Last edited:
TwistedSpoon Abra Psychic vs. Trapinch: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Whoops.



First of all, this is just a strawman, it barely even relates to the topic at hand and was just an example. Agility Doduo is great, Band is great, both are used. I was talking about CB Doduo, as an example of how to not be a bad player against Diglett. I guess it's not too odd that it completely went over your head.



You were talking about OHKOes? Let's see:



Remember those calcs you confused with Trapinch calcs. The ones of Diglett failing to OHKO these bolded Pokemon. Yea, they weren't OHKOes.

Sitrus Berry restores these Pokemon to full HP. Diglett would usually be coming in usually after a Pokemon takes a hit, triggering the Berry. Therefore, Spikes do not mean you're going to certainly be facing a weakened Pokemon. You can also Endure if all else fails.



Trapinch and Diglett are different, of course. But they can be used for the same purpose. Diglett has Speed, but its drawbacks far outweigh that. Trapinch can do almost anything that Diglett can in addition to taking a hit and avoid being set up bait, two things that make Diglett inefficient to use.

You are illustrating how hilariously misguided your point of view is by bringing FletchDig into this. Lets first and foremost clear this up: You are bringing up Gen 6 as an analogy to Gen 3. Oh, and Diglett was not banned or suspected in XY, so what was the purpose of that. Also, there is this thing called team preview and U-turn / Volt Switch which changes the entire dynamic of double-switching, making it more realistic to be able to get Diglett in. Fletchling has Swords Dance and PRIORITY Acrobatics that can only be walled effectively by a specific type of Pokemon. Diglett has access to Life Orb or Focus Sash (allowing it to take a hit) and Memento in XY and isn't as easily set up on. So what we've gathered from this analogy is that: Diglett is harder to use in Adv than in XY, where Diglett was not suspected or banned.

And suggesting that Trapinch cannot take advantage of double-switch is an absurd statement that I've already addressed in my Trapinch arguments and have no desire to repeat.

I think you're confusing me "being concerned with you not taking any argument seriously" with "I know you're not taking any of the arguments seriously" because it's easier to just not think about anything the same way it's easier just to ban Diglett then think about how to not lose to it.

All of this started because you posted something and it just struck me (and I'm sure you'd like to think it was just me) as ridiculous that your vote counts the same as all of the other people who have demonstrated that they're actually capable of rational thought.

In any event, this is getting out of hand so if you were going to stop posting that wouldn't be the worst thing.
236 SpA Twisted Spoon Abra Psychic vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Trapinch: 21-25 (87.5 - 104.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Mhm.

It's not a strawman to point out that your accusations of "bad playing" is pretty unfounded, especially when we're talking about using very weak checks to Doduo. I was just pointing out a flaw in your thinking. I find it pretty lulzy though that you talk about how I can't consider outplaying, but you're going to somehow keep necesary pieces alive in a game full of trapping.

Trapinch does not do everything Diglett does. It cannot take on weakened mons like Porygon or Wailmer, and cannot take on other fast threats that will certainly OHKO it. Ponyta certainly comes to mind, as does Staryu (236 Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Staryu: 19-24 (95 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes). The reason why double trapping is so viable isn't just because of the overlap, but because both Trapinch and Diglett trap different Pokemon. Also, I'd like to point out that team preview doesn't make Diglett easier to bring in. You can't certainly expect what your opponent has, so it will be much easier for your opponent to have key Pokemon trapped early on.

Diglett's being banned because the differences between gen 3 and 6 make it so much better in ADV. I'd strongly argue that Doduo's actually way better than Fletch considering that the latter has way more counters that don't give a shit about Diglett, or otherwise can pressure it to stay out. (Also there's no evio).

I have no issue beating Diglett because my teams are usually double trapping with Doduo. If you're going to attack my character, then at least attack me for being an unoriginal teambuilder.
 
I am actually impressed with that post; it has substance. I feel like I've saved a soul.

236 SpA Twisted Spoon Abra Psychic vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Trapinch: 21-25 (87.5 - 104.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Mhm.
Those EVs are inefficient. I already posted the calc, I'm not sure what the purpose of you posting a poorly EV'd Trapinch is supposed to accomplish.

It's not a strawman to point out that your accusations of "bad playing" is pretty unfounded, especially when we're talking about using very weak checks to Doduo. I was just pointing out a flaw in your thinking. I find it pretty lulzy though that you talk about how I can't consider outplaying, but you're going to somehow keep necesary pieces alive in a game full of trapping.
Whether you think Agility Doduo, Band Doduo, or Sub Petaya special attacker Doduo is better doesn't matter. It was talking about how it is stupid to leave checks out in the open when it's so easy to avoid being KOed by Diglett and you've focused on how you like different variants of Doduo. That's a strawman.
Trapinch does not do everything Diglett does. It cannot take on weakened mons like Porygon or Wailmer, and cannot take on other fast threats that will certainly OHKO it. Ponyta certainly comes to mind, as does Staryu (236 Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Staryu: 19-24 (95 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes). The reason why double trapping is so viable isn't just because of the overlap, but because both Trapinch and Diglett trap different Pokemon. Also, I'd like to point out that team preview doesn't make Diglett easier to bring in. You can't certainly expect what your opponent has, so it will be much easier for your opponent to have key Pokemon trapped early on.
We've been over this. I know it doesn't beat things like Ponyta and Staryu. However Ponyta can always run Salac Berry (which I did use as a Diglett / Priority lure at one time). There could even be more examples of Diglett being able to KO a Pokemon on a revenge kill than Trapinch, but the simple fact of the matter is that Trapinch can switch into Pokemon to trap them and doesn't leave you open when it's done revenge killing. Diglett's negatives are insurmountable when compared to Trapinches. Diglett is a double-edged sword where the one pointing away from you is a base 55 attack dull blade made of glass and the one pointing to you can have 100 Base SpA or sleep powder and explosion and take a large chunk of your team out.

I'm not sure if you remember, but the original reason this started is because you said "now Doduo has walls that can't be trapped" which is comical because all of those Rock and Electric-types do worse against Trapinch. Trapinch is better at trapping those mons. No many how many you say Trapinch can't trap Chinchou, there will be an exponentially more amount of Rock/Electric-types that Diglett can't beat that Trapinch can.

Diglett's being banned because the differences between gen 3 and 6 make it so much better in ADV. I'd strongly argue that Doduo's actually way better than Fletch considering that the latter has way more counters that don't give a shit about Diglett, or otherwise can pressure it to stay out. (Also there's no evio).
Why are you kicking the dead horse? That analogy backfired on you already.

It's baffling that you think Diglett is banned because its stronger in ADV. If you think it's any reason other than the process or the sheer number of people on the council, then you're delusional.

There's a reason why there's a process for banning things in the current generation. This is a great example of why.

I have no issue beating Diglett because my teams are usually double trapping with Doduo. If you're going to attack my character, then at least attack me for being an unoriginal teambuilder.
I've rarely seen that strategy work at all, but if it does work, it's usually because of Trapinch's bulk or QA catching the opponent off guard. If your opponent is not aware of the fact that trapping exists I could see how it might be a worthwhile strategy but any preparation and I feel like you're at least looking at a 5/6 before you've started.

EDIT: @ below: predictable. It was the easier option, after all. I'm not surprised people would be annoyed but ignoring the problems doesnt make them go away.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top