Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[Kurona]

I think something that should be taken into account with Mega Swampert's viability is that it's probably the only Swift Swimmer that does well outside of rain, or at least the one best outside of rain.
I'm not saying to run it outside of a rain team of course, no way. What I'm saying is that in the scenario where you don't have rain, say your Politoed died or Charizard evaporated it or something, Swampert has the bulk and the power to muscle through. Meanwhile, Kabutops is a bit too slow and frail to handle offence out of rain and Kingdra is kind of meh outside of it. Swampert can at least pull it's work.
Edit: Also I don't think anything else on rain gets a physical ice move so there's that; correct me if I'm wrong tho

 

[MANNAT]

Ok, this swampert discussion has lasted a really long, time and I think we've established that it's fine where it is now. Let's talk about my favorite underrated threat: Hawlucha. This thing is essentially an anti-meta check to some of the top-tier sweepers such as mega gallade, mega heracross and others.

I think something that should be taken into account with Mega Swampert's viability is that it's probably the only Swift Swimmer that does well outside of rain, or at least the one best outside of rain.
I'm not saying to run it outside of a rain team of course, no way. What I'm saying is that in the scenario where you don't have rain, say your Politoed died or Charizard evaporated it or something, Swampert has the bulk and the power to muscle through. Meanwhile, Kabutops is a bit too slow and frail to handle offence out of rain and Kingdra is kind of meh outside of it. Swampert can at least pull it's work.
Edit: Also I don't think anything else on rain gets a physical ice move so there's that; correct me if I'm wrong tho

Beartic, Floatzel, Golduck, Ludicolo, Poliwrath, and Seismitoad are all swift swimmers that get ice punch, but Swampert is a better rain abuser than all of them. However, they don't need a mega stone though.

 

[Kurona]

Beartic, Floatzel, Golduck, Ludicolo, Poliwrath, and Seismitoad are all swift swimmers that get ice punch, but Swampert is a better rain abuser than all of them. However, they don't need a mega stone though.

Only viable Swift Swimmer. If someone was using Golduck or Beartic in OU I'd be worried.
Only OU viable ones there are Seismitoad and Ludicolo, who are both special attackers. i.e. this is completely irrelevant

 

[MANNAT]

Only viable Swift Swimmer. If someone was using Golduck or Beartic in OU I'd be worried.
Only OU viable ones there are Seismitoad and Ludicolo, who are both special attackers. i.e. this is completely irrelevant

I was just pointing out that you said it was the ONLY rain abuser that got ice punch.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

alright, even though i missed the proper time, i'll do it anyway

->A

mega heracross is a monster. while it did gain competition and like 1 wall in the transition to ORAS, it is still a monster stallbreaker capable of ripping unprepared teams(alot!)a new one. while most teams are worrying themselves over lopunny and gallade, they completely overlook heracross. heracross is a fatty(80/115/105 is quite fat), which allows it to perform against offense and stall, quite admirably, i might add. since stall teams are using mega sableye(lets face it, there's no reason not to use this thing), they tend to completely overlook heracross. and before you say that sableye stall teams are running unaware clefable:

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 175-210 (44.4 - 53.2%) -- approx. 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

and its one of the best partners to sr+sd garchomp, wearing down common checks(clefable, altaria), benefiting from the nearly guaranteed rocks, and beating out almost everything that walls it. also, i should mention its the one of two physical attackers that beat slowbro/sableye(gyarados being the other, which i personally think is S worthy), and it makes most stalls face a mindgame of "do i keep priority wisp with sableye or mega evolve to keep rocks off" because mega heracross is that kind of monster.

tl;dr it eats the most common stall build for breakfast

 

[JMach]

I think something that should be taken into account with Mega Swampert's viability is that it's probably the only Swift Swimmer that does well outside of rain, or at least the one best outside of rain.
I'm not saying to run it outside of a rain team of course, no way. What I'm saying is that in the scenario where you don't have rain, say your Politoed died or Charizard evaporated it or something, Swampert has the bulk and the power to muscle through. Meanwhile, Kabutops is a bit too slow and frail to handle offence out of rain and Kingdra is kind of meh outside of it. Swampert can at least pull it's work.
Edit: Also I don't think anything else on rain gets a physical ice move so there's that; correct me if I'm wrong tho

MegaPert is also the only SSer with access to a sickeningly powerful, sickeningly spammable STAB, with pretty much no drawbacks, in the form of Earthquake.

All the discussion I've seen surrounding MegaPert completely neglect to acknowledge EQ. It's the move that makes him effective at softening things up / cleaning late game, and it puts a load of pressure on heaps of stuff.

Let's talk about my favorite underrated threat: Hawlucha. This thing is essentially an anti-meta check to some of the top-tier sweepers such as mega gallade, mega heracross and others.

I've recently decided I totally agree with this. SubSitrus is disgustingly anti-meta, and can completely fuck over switch-ins like Mega Sableye and Thundy. More often than not, a KO or a sweep follows. Move him on up!

alright, even though i missed the proper time, i'll do it anyway

->A

mega heracross is a monster. while it did gain competition and like 1 wall in the transition to ORAS, it is still a monster stallbreaker capable of ripping unprepared teams(alot!)a new one. while most teams are worrying themselves over lopunny and gallade, they completely overlook heracross. heracross is a fatty(80/115/105 is quite fat), which allows it to perform against offense and stall, quite admirably, i might add. since stall teams are using mega sableye(lets face it, there's no reason not to use this thing), they tend to completely overlook heracross. and before you say that sableye stall teams are running unaware clefable:

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 175-210 (44.4 - 53.2%) -- approx. 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

and its one of the best partners to sr+sd garchomp, wearing down common checks(clefable, altaria), benefiting from the nearly guaranteed rocks, and beating out almost everything that walls it. also, i should mention its the one of two physical attackers that beat slowbro/sableye(gyarados being the other, which i personally think is S worthy), and it makes most stalls face a mindgame of "do i keep priority wisp with sableye or mega evolve to keep rocks off" because mega heracross is that kind of monster.

tl;dr it eats the most common stall build for breakfast

I agree with MegaHera's effectiveness in the meta. It's a force to be reckoned with, dismantling big chunks of stall teams in one go, and also wrecking shop on SW teams (which are really strong atm).

However, I kind of think it should just stay where it is. UnMega'd Sableye forces it out vs stall, and it's still really reliant on good prediction. I mean, it's threatening and everything but stall relies on having a million switch-ins to top threats. Picking the right move for Hera isn't always the easiest thing to do.

Idk, Hera is good but I'm
Not convinced it's A- worthy. It doesn't seem easy enough to utilise.

 

[astroboy]

Reminder that Kabutops also has the advantage of being able to run Swords dance, turning it. Swampert has no reliable set up move (PuP), and due to the lack of an item the damage coming off of Mega-Swampert is more often than not kinda underwhelming. I mean, sure electric (and t wave by that sense) immunity, and the bulk are nice, but Swampert is DISGUSTINGLY easy to wear down, and don't get me started how annoying swift swim activating on the second turn. Personally, I wouldn't mind if it stayed in B+, but I'm l'm leaning towards Swampert to B

 

[firehusky]

Reminder that Kabutops also has the advantage of being able to run Swords dance, turning it. Swampert has no reliable set up move (PuP), and due to the lack of an item the damage coming off of Mega-Swampert is more often than not kinda underwhelming. I mean, sure electric (and t wave by that sense) immunity, and the bulk are nice, but Swampert is DISGUSTINGLY easy to wear down, and don't get me started how annoying swift swim activating on the second turn. Personally, I wouldn't mind if it stayed in B+, but I'm l'm leaning towards Swampert to B

If anything, kabutops is a lot easier to wear down. Life orb recoil, and no SR resistance are really bad for kabu. Kabu is also frailer than swampert, making priority hurt a lot, and it's defensive typing isn't that good. Swampert's bulk and no life orb recoil makes it harder to wear down.

 

[pika pal]

Reminder that Kabutops also has the advantage of being able to run Swords dance, turning it. Swampert has no reliable set up move (PuP), and due to the lack of an item the damage coming off of Mega-Swampert is more often than not kinda underwhelming. I mean, sure electric (and t wave by that sense) immunity, and the bulk are nice, but Swampert is DISGUSTINGLY easy to wear down, and don't get me started how annoying swift swim activating on the second turn. Personally, I wouldn't mind if it stayed in B+, but I'm l'm leaning towards Swampert to B

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Rain: 257-304 (75.3 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 214-253 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Rain: 240-283 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 199-235 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Swampert only hits mildly weaker than Kabutops, and lack of LO recoil and a SR resistance are also factors in their longevity. Hazards can cost Kabu anywhere from 1-3 turns of LO attacking. Swords Dance seems like a neat idea, but in practice, Kabutops can't quite use it as often as he would Aqua Jet in that slot, because he takes more passive damage and is frailer than Swampert. Kabutops is on a timer the moment he starts attacking: even if the opponent has no counter, they could win by just outlasting the rain or Kabutops' LO recoil. If Swampert starts sweeping, the opponent can't wait for him to wear himself down and tank him out the same way.

Kabutops's options have to be looked at in terms of their practical use, not just their theoretical application. Swords Dance isn't easy to pull off when he's on two different timers, is pretty frail, and meant to clean anyway, meaning the extra power from a boost is probably superfluous.

 

[alexwolf]

Update time:

Celebi: B+ ---> A-
Gyarados: B+ ---> A-
Hippowdon: B+ ---> A-
Rhyperior: B+ ---> B
Suicune: B+ ---> B
Mega Swampert: B+ ---> B
Tornadus-T: B+ ---> B
Victini: B+ ---> B
Alomomola: B ---> B-
Amoonguss: B ---> B+
Mega Camerupt: B ---> C+
Chesnaught: B ---> B+
Lucario: B ---> B-
Scolipede: B ---> B-
Zapdos: B ---> B-

Reasoning

Celebi rose to A- due to its ability to handle new omnipresent threats such as Mega Slowbro, Mega Diancie, and Mega Lopunny with its NastyPass set, and versatility, as it can run at least 4 differents sets effectively (NastyPass, offensive NP, Scarf, defensive utility)

Gyarados rose to A- because it pairs excellently with new physical MEvos on offensive teams, such as Mega Lopunny, Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria, which automatically makes it more viable. With physical offense becoming so potent, Gyarados is an excellent sweeper to pair your MEvos with, and it can also bypass Thundurus with Lum Berry.

Hippowdon rose to A- because of all the new physical threats it deals with, as well as being one of the best counters to Thundurus and Mega Diancie with a specially defensive set.

Rhyperior dropped to B because physical offense has become way too unfavorable to it, and every single new physical MEvo either 2HKOes it (Mega Metagross, Mega Lopunny) or sets up on it (Mega Altaria). Birdspam is also not such a huge focus of physical offense right now, due to the big amount of amazing physical sweepers and cleaners available, which means that Rhyperior is not keeping in check as much stuff as it used to anymore. Plus, Mega Sableye does its SR job harder, and Dragonite and Mega Tyranitar also dropped a lot in viability, two dangerous Pokemon that Rhyperior was a great check to.

Suicune dropped to B because Mega Slowbro is the preferred CM bulky Water-type on teams, and the metagame has also adapted to dealing with bulky boosting threats due to the introduction of Mega Slowbro, and the influx of Pokemon that make Suicune's life miserable, such as TG + Energy Ball Manaphy, NP Celebi, NP Thundurus, SubDD Mega Gyarados, DD Heal Bell Mega Altaria, etc.

Mega Swampert dropped to B because of heavy competition in the Swift Swim and MEvo department. As a Swift Swim user, Mega Swampert is a bit lacking in power and also needs one turn to MEvolve, which can be detrimental against a boosted foe. It does somewhat makes up for it with its bulk and great typing, but the fact that it's a MEvo puts it one rank lower than Kingdra and Kabutops, which provide better cleaning and sweeping potential and don't occupy your Mega slot.

Tornadus-T dropped because the metagame is more focused around physical hitter, which Tornadus-T can't switch into. Furthermore, the majority of the popular special attackers beat Tornadus-T, such as Greninja, Thundurus, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Slowbro, Mega Diancie, Mega Manectric, Mega Latias, and Mega Sableye. Finally, Torn-T received new checks in Mega Metagross and Mega Diancie, making it easier to check with offensive teams.

Victini dropped because Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, and Mega Slowbro are new checks and counters, making Victini's job more difficult.

Alomomola dropped because set up sweepers being everywhere really hurts its viability, as no matter how prepared you are for them, Pokemon such as SD Mega Gallade and SubPass Mega Lopunny will just give you a hell of a time.

Amoonguss rose to B+ because it deals with some important new threats, namely Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, and Mega Slowbro. Plus with Mega Venusaur getting harder to fit on teams due to the increased opportunity cost, Amoonguss enjoys the slightly decreased competition as Grass / Poison type. Although Celebi gives it big competition, Poison-typing, Spore, Clear Smog, and Regenerator give Amoonguss plenty of reasons to be used.


Mega Camerupt dropped to C+ because it's too slow, doesn't hit that hard, and takes up your MEvo slot. Many Pokemon can avoid the 2HKO from it while OHKOing back, such as Latios, Rotom-W, and AV Azumarill, while even more Pokemon can check it once and force it out, which is a big problem for a Pokemon as slow as Mega Camerupt, without any kind of recovery and not that impressive bulk.


Chesnaught rose to B+ because Drain Punch is amazing, providing Chesnaught with a reliable STAB move that can restore it to (almost) full health after KOing foes such as Bisharp, Mega Gyarados, Mega Lopunny, and Terrakion, plus Chesnaught deals with a few new or improved threats, such as Mega Gyarados and Mega Lopunny.


Lucario dropped to B- because the new MEvos make its life miserable, with Mega Diancie and Mega Metagross being great checks for offense, and Mega Slowbro being a hard counter for defensive or balance teams. Also, Mega Sableye and Mega Altaria force Lucario to run Iron Tail, which in turn leaves it vulnerable to Pokemon such as Gliscor, Landorus-T, and regular Slowbro.

Scolipede dropped to B- because full Baton Pass teams took a hit with the introduction of Mega Sableye, Mega Slowbro, and Mega Diancie. The two Magic Bounce users can't be Taunted, put to sleep, or phazed, and can start boosting to sweep the whole BP team, while Mega Slowbro can do the same if it has Oblivion in its base form and uses a RestTalk set.

Zapdos dropped to B- because flying spam is less popular and most top tier therats have no trouble getting past Zapdos, a Pokemon that is already Stealth Rock weak and doesn't have impressive bulk.

Anything that was discussed to move and didn't, such as Kyurem-B, wasn't ignored, it was just agreed by the ranking team to stay put.

Before we discuss about B- and C+ ranks, we will focus for a few days on Gengar, Landorus, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Slowbro. Those 4 Pokemon were picked by the ranking team as the weakest from A+ rank, and given how big A+ is compared to A and A (18 in A+, 10 in A, 12 in A-), we need to balance this out a bit. So, i want from you guys to discuss which of those 4 Pokemon you think that should drop to A and why.

 

[skies]

alexwolf, could you possibly explain why Mega Slowbro was picked as one of the weakest of A+ Rank? I think it solidly deserves its current ranking and don't really understand the reason it would drop.

 

[Kurona]

I'd actually like quite a bit of reasoning on why these four are considered the weakest. Lando-I I can get purely for the opportunity cost of not being able to use Lando-T, but all of the others just seem ridiculously good to me. I guess Mega Evolution opportunity cost, but Pinsir's really the only Mega worth using on Birdspam (aside from maybe Pidgeot)

 

[Albacore]

Mega-Slowbro should definitely drop imo. The only set I've used extensively is CM Iron Defense (which is, afaik, the set which made it A+ in the first place), and although it is definitely a solid sweeper and an excellent anti-offense tool, it is 100% matchup based. It basically 6-0s most offensive teams, and I mean 6-0 with no effort, you literally send it in turn 1 mega up set up CM set up Iron Defense and win. But it is pretty much deadweight if the opponent has either a status user, a taunter, or a SpA booster, in other words, if you're not facing HO. You need to get rid of pretty much anything defensive to sweep, which is hard since defensive Pokemon are typically difficult to wear down. And it's not even that good as a standalone wall since it invests in mixed defenses to sweep better and lacks lefties recovery and Regen.

At the end of the day, CM Mega-Slowbro has to choose what it loses to. If it doesn't run Rest it can't do shit vs stall and has a really hard time vs balance. If it doesn't run Slack Off it has a harder time vs offense because it loses to 3HKOs. If it doesn't run max SpD Greninja checks it at +1. If it doesn't run max phys def it can't switch into anything pre-mega. If it doesn't run Iron Defense bulky physical set up sweepers walk all over it, if it doesn't run Psyshock opposing CM sweepers beat it, if it doesn't run Ice Beam or Fire Blast Celebi beats it, and no matter what it does Manaphy and Unaware Clefable laugh as they set up to +6 in its face. It's also very easy to wear down, although it does technically set up on Ferrothorn and Rotom-W (both extremely common Pokemon) it can't sweep with these still on the field, I've tried it and you just end up getting burnt and leech seeded and spamming Slack Off every single turn because you get worn down too much by passive damage and running out of Slack Off PP and dying. Too many things take advantage of it, too much stuff needs to be removed for it to properly sweep no matter what you're running. I don't see it as superior to Mega-Latias and I certainly don't see it anywhere near as good as Mega-Sableye, who offers far more utility and isn't stopped nearly as easily by so many things.

ORAS has been a bit of mixed bag for Gengar, on the one hand it can't reliably stallbreak with the advent of Tenatcruel stall, on the other hand it's one of the best checks to DD Altaria who is a huge threat and SpD Gliscor is not really used on Stall anymore. I think it still deserves to be A+, however I can see it dropping simply on the basis that it provides little defensive synergy aside from a Ground immunity and is not really that splashable.

Landorus-I shouldn't drop. Yes, it comes with opportunity cost because you can't run Lando-T. But man is it a good stallbreaker atm, no one prepares for it at all, SpD Glicor and Tornadus-T are nowhere to be seen. Also, the fact that most megas that are used aren't wallbreakers like they were in XY is good news for it since that means most teams need to pack a good non-mega wallbreaker, and though it has a bit more competition for that role than it did in Aegi era, it's still one of the best wallbreakers in the tier. It also has a great niche as one of the only SR setters that beats the Sableye+Tentacruel combo (the only other one I can think of is offensive Heatran with Fire Blast and Earth Power), and is quite versatile in what it can run (the Rock Polish set is still very solid).

 

[p2]

I'll leave a little bit on Gengar

It's still a very good special attacker with nearly unresisted STABs and all the coverage it will ever need and 110 is still a very decent speed tier. The new megas have hurt its viability a bit, but it's still very good, nothing safely switches in on it. It's still a solid threat that teams should always be prepared for.

It can still run good sets, ranging from LO 3 Attacks, SubDisable/Split/Wisp, Trick @ Specs/Scarf which are all quite effective still.

I can understand a drop to A, but it should not drop any lower. If it does drop, it'll probably come back up after Greninja is banned

 

[Alfalfa]

I have not used Landorus-I that much, but I encourage other people to discuss its viability. I am not referring to its standard, all-out attacking set, because for me, the speedcreep only makes things worse for it against offensive teams. Rather, I am talking about Rock Polish sets and Calm Mind sets, which are more geared towards beating offensive (RP) and stall teams (CM). The all-out attacking set (which I have used) is a bit lacking, and while it does pressure a lot of defensive Pokemon, I think it is a bit obsolete in my opinion due to how much its speed can be a liability.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I second moving Mega Slowbro moving down. At the beginning of the ORAS metagame, when every other team was heavily Offensive Slowbro took control of everything Mega Mence didn't. However, now that it has settled down a bit and people have begun to balance out playstyle wise, Mega Slowbro has a bit of a harder time sticking around now. It's still an ass and a half to deal with, but it isn't borderline broken like it used to be. At least, not from what I've seen.

 

[TheEnder]

In my opinion, Gengar shouldn't drop to A. Its most viable set, LO + 3 Attacks, is really unprepared for in the current metagame. Due to the balance archetype remaining as the most commonly used one, there isn't much coming in on Gengar. Defensive Landorus-T, Ferrothorn, Clefable, Heatran, and Rotom-W are perhaps the most used defensively oriented Pokemon at the moment. All of these are torn apart or shut down by Gengar, which can open up quite a lot for Gengar's teammates. Once balanced teams' way of revngekilling it, Gengar can be incredibly hard to take hand of. However, it is not only against balanced teams Gengar shines. Due to its good speed tier, offensive teams can have a hard time dealing with it, once their Choice Scarf user / high Base Speed Pokemon gets worn down. If Gengar is running Substitute, it is also capable of beating certain Sucker Punch users, such as Bisharp. Against stall teams Gengar is either hit or miss, to be honest. Against the wrong teams, such as against CM Sableye and SpD Gliscor, it has a hard time. Once these checks are weakened, however, Gengar can put in an immense amount of work. Nothing really switches into the combination of Shadow Ball + Sludge Wave + Focus Blast, and the few Pokemon capable of switching in are mostly shut down by Taunt. These qualities are very rare, and no other Pokemon is capable of performing as well as Gengar in its role. Despite these qualities though, I completely understand the reasoning behind discussing an eventual drop. Between damage from entry hazards and Life Orb recoil, Gengar is worn down very quickly. Many lf the new Mega Evolutions, such as Mega Lopunny, Mega Sceptile, and Mega Beedrill are also capable of revengekilling it, which further limits Gengar's longlivety. I still think the ability to get a kill every time it comes in is enough to warrant an A+ ranking, despite its obvious flaws.

 

[JMach]

MegaBro to drop. Rise of grass types such as Breloom and Celebi hurt it a fair bit, and it's not as hard to play around as it was in the MMence era.

Lando is too good vs Stall to drop. He's also still one of the best offensive rockers around.

Genar is soooo versatile, and his Scarf set is ridiculously underrated atm (Icy Wind say whut to your Therian?), so there's no way he should drop.

Mega Pinsir is amazing now that MMence is gone. It's just underutilised. It requires some support to use effectively, but hey - that's why it isn't S rank. Keep it where it is. The fresh meta is also pretty underprepared for it.

 

[jbtc10]

on the other hand it's one of the best checks to DD Altaria who is a huge threat

Is it really though? I find Mega Altaria is questionable in A+. From personal experience, none of its sets quite live up to that rank. The DD set seems to be an inferior Zard X because it doesn't hit anywhere near as hard and is much slower, meaning things like Scarf Lando can come in and annoy you and you need more than 1 boost to OHKO many threats which is pretty difficult to acquire in practice. Jolly Zard X is amazing because it sets up once, OHKO's Scarf Lando and then goes to town. It performs well and consistently against every play style. Altaria's Return + EQ coverage is walled by Skarm and Ferro, the latter of which seems to be on every second team. There's Fire Blast for it, but then Heatran..... Any status also cripples it, unless it's running Sub or Heal Bell, and now we're talking about pretty severe 4MSS.

In other words, I find it similar to how you described Mega Slowbro; each of its sets can work wonders against the right team, but being so reliant on that makes it a pretty inconsistent mon. It doesn't answer to Keldeo until after you've M-Evo'd since Icy Wind OHKO's and even after you have, physical variants don't like being burned. The special set just gets walled by any special wall that isn't hit SE. I mean, it can be great, but it hasn't jumped out at me as something that's as threatening as other things in the A+ ranks.

 

[MrAldo]

Gengar shouldnt drop. It has all the possible tools to shine against all the playstyles. Having taunt to deal with taunt, having moves like substitute and pain split to take advantage of fat walls (it can struggle with spD mega sableye and gliscor but not much if they are weakened). A really nice speed tier forcing ties with stuff like the latis, mega gallade and mega metagross and no one want to deal with those ties. Some really neat coverage in shadow ball + sludge wave + focus blast making it a pain to switch for balanced teams and a neat choice scarf set that can be a pain for offense. Overall, I feel gengar truly put in work against every style and should stay in A+

Same deal with Lando-I. The only thing I can see affecting Lando-I is the fact that the desirable speed tier for offense has been increased making 101 speed just not making the cut, but it has a pretty neat rock polish set which can be a pain to stop for offense if it is already set up. Against stall and balance however Lando-I truly shines. Being able to deal ridiculous damage to the standard walls (similar to gengar) with earth power + focus blast + sludge wave or psychic hit a lot of things. CM Landorus-I is bonkers against stall. Im quite on the rope on this one but if I had to choose still a solid A+ rank IMO

Getting to decrease the A+ ranks could take a while. Will comment on Mega Slowbro and Mega Pinsir later on.

 

[Alfalfa]

Is it really though? I find Mega Altaria is questionable in A+. From personal experience, none of its sets quite live up to that rank. The DD set seems to be an inferior Zard X because it doesn't hit anywhere near as hard and is much slower, meaning things like Scarf Lando can come in and annoy you and you need more than 1 boost to OHKO many threats which is pretty difficult to acquire in practice. Jolly Zard X is amazing because it sets up once, OHKO's Scarf Lando and then goes to town. It performs well and consistently against every play style. Altaria's Return + EQ coverage is walled by Skarm and Ferro, the latter of which seems to be on every second team. There's Fire Blast for it, but then Heatran..... Any status also cripples it, unless it's running Sub or Heal Bell, and now we're talking about pretty severe 4MSS.

In other words, I find it similar to how you described Mega Slowbro; each of its sets can work wonders against the right team, but being so reliant on that makes it a pretty inconsistent mon. It doesn't answer to Keldeo until after you've M-Evo'd since Icy Wind OHKO's and even after you have, physical variants don't like being burned. The special set just gets walled by any special wall that isn't hit SE. I mean, it can be great, but it hasn't jumped out at me as something that's as threatening as other things in the A+ ranks.

I would like to add to this, saying bulky Dragon Dance sets tend to lack enough speed to sweep competent offensive teams until it has boosted to like +3 or +4 (to which no good offensive team will usually let you achieve), and even then, it is still really easy to wall with mono-fairy coverage if it wants to avoid being crippled by status. Dragon-Fairy is a really good defensive typing, but Altaria wants more power to muscle through bulkier Pokemon, speed so it can outrun key Pokemon at +1 without much speed investment, and bulk so it can set up on the Pokemon it is supposed to check. The biggest issue though is speed; Mega Mence was able to outspeed important threats at +1, such as Greninja, without needing to invest significantly into speed. The same thing goes for Zard X, who only needs 68 Speed EVs to outrun Greninja at +1, whereas Mega Altaria needs 228 Speed EVs without running a speed-boosting nature just to outrun something like Greninja. While it seems like I am overspinning the speed argument, pretty much every time I use bulky Mega Altaria, I have to choose between potentially being muscled through Pokemon it is supposed to check vs. being able to outrun important Pokemon at +1, such as Greninja, since most offensive teams are able to pressure Mega Altaria from getting that many boosts anyways. Furthermore, offensive teams are usually able to pressure Altaria into getting only one boost, which is usually not always enough for it to sweep, especially if it is running a bulkier set. From my experience, Mega Altaria is very inconsistent, and I nominate it to drop to A Rank.

 

[Celticpride]

I would be in favor of Mega Slowbro dropping to A. This is mostly because regular Slowbro gives a number of similar traits to a team, where there really aren't easy substitutes for other defensive mons like Mega Sableye and Mega Altraria. Obviously Mega Slowbro has advantages over regular Slowbro, especially in terms of set up ability, but other Megas provide more to other playstyles. I would much rather use Mega Sableye+Slowbro or Mega Altaria+Slowbro over Mega Slowbro+filler on a stall teams. On balanced builds, Mega Slowbro doesn't provide much that regular Slowbro can't. Balance would also much rather spend it's Mega slot on a powerful wallbreaker or a fast revenge killer. Mega Slowbro is very good, don't get me wrong, but there's a very similar alternative that frees you to use the Mega Slot on something else. I think these "Con: Uses Mega Slot" arguments are very overblown in most cases, but here it actually does apply because non-Mega Slowbro is already really damn solid on it's own. Slowbro also closes the admittedly large defensive gap slightly because it retains Regenerator and can use Lefties.

 

[tigers jaw]

People need to stop looking at Altaria as a purely offensive Pokemon. The DD sets are ok, and it has neat tricks like STAB Facade should something want to burn it (seriously this is both terrifying to face at +1/+2 and hilarious to use). What makes it great is the mix of special, DD, and bulky defensive sets for balance/stall.

Seriously, the amount of utility the defensive sets pack is insane - Dragon Pulse/Hyper Voice/Heal Bell/Roost is pretty much SpD Gyara x Hippo x 72 HP Latias. It checks/counters so much stuff, such as Lando-T, Lati@s, Thundurus, ZardX, Mega Gyara, Keldeo, Lopunny, Mega Sableye, Garchomp, ZardY (requires some SpD investment to avoid the 2HKO from Fire Blast after rocks iirc), Mega Manectric, Mega Heracross, Mega Sceptile, Terrakion, and more. It does all of this whilst acting as a cleric for the team. The amount of slack it frees up in teambuilding is insane. Need I continue?

More on topic, I don't think Gengar deserves to drop. Yes, Tenta is annoying, and a couple of new megas can check it if they're MEvolved first, but it isn't the end of the world. Gengar is still threatening as hell and I can't see it on the same level as Mega Venusaur and Slowbro, it is simply better than the A-ranks imo. Hits hard, is fast, has some of the best coverage in the game, and has cool stuff like D-bond and Taunt. Still an excellent Pokemon.

 

[Numera]

Is it really though? I find Mega Altaria is questionable in A+. From personal experience, none of its sets quite live up to that rank. The DD set seems to be an inferior Zard X because it doesn't hit anywhere near as hard and is much slower, meaning things like Scarf Lando can come in and annoy you and you need more than 1 boost to OHKO many threats which is pretty difficult to acquire in practice.

What set are you running? Are you running some frail af not-MAlt MAlt? How in the name of god is a +1/+2 boost hard for Altaria to obtain, with such good bulk and a fantastic typing, enabling it to set up vs massive threats such as Keldeo? Honestly, it's like you haven't even used this thing. As a DDer I actually find it far easier to set up with than Zard X, being rocks neutral and being able to set up on a bit more of the metagame. It's also got a lovely fairy type stab in Frustration, and pairs really well with big mons in the game such as Skarm. It's weird to compare MAlt and MZardX because of how different they are as DDers; they offer different things.

Jolly Zard X is amazing because it sets up once, OHKO's Scarf Lando and then goes to town. It performs well and consistently against every play style. Altaria's Return + EQ coverage is walled by Skarm and Ferro, the latter of which seems to be on every second team. There's Fire Blast for it, but then Heatran..... Any status also cripples it, unless it's running Sub or Heal Bell, and now we're talking about pretty severe 4MSS.

Severe 4MSS? When did you use this thing again? I find that if I want a specific set, the moveset is already plotted out right there for me. For example, bulky DD? Frustration/Heal Bell/Roost/Dragon Dance. More offensive? Drop Heal Bell for EQ or maybe Sub. It's not a severe case of 4MSS; if anything, if it does have a case of it, it's very minor but also very dangerous: Giving this thing a free sub is like throwing your life away. Onto the Ferro and Skarm thing, there just so happens to be one almost perfect partner for MAlt which handles with the pair of them easily. Do I even need to spell it out?

In other words, I find it similar to how you described Mega Slowbro; each of its sets can work wonders against the right team, but being so reliant on that makes it a pretty inconsistent mon. It doesn't answer to Keldeo until after you've M-Evo'd since Icy Wind OHKO's and even after you have, physical variants don't like being burned. The special set just gets walled by any special wall that isn't hit SE. I mean, it can be great, but it hasn't jumped out at me as something that's as threatening as other things in the A+ ranks.

And in what situation are you not either A: MEvoing the second Keldeo comes out or B: Heal Belling that burn away, or getting up free subs if you're a sub variant? As for the special set, what you say about it is kind of true, but just try to be an offensive team and switch into it. I dare you. Essentially, what I think makes MAlt A+ is how versatile it is, and how threatening each of it's sets are. All of them together easily push it into A+, and to me, it really has proved itself as one of the more threatening Pokemon in this metagame. Every team should be prepared for this monster, and it's ranking should reflect that.

Replies in bold. What's with the sudden Altaria hate?

 

[Mur]

Gengar should stay imo. Its versatality is probably the greatest asset of gar due to the fact that it can be built to handle a plethora of threats and playstyles. Between 3atks+dbond, sub+3atks, sub+wilo, subsplit, subdisable, stallbreaker, and scarf gengar has enough variations to handle whatever the team needs.The 110 speed tier has become the speed to beat which lets gengar scare out a lot of new threats due to not wanting to risk a speed tie such as megagross, the latis, Mgallade(sneak isnt run on it), and Mdiancie. Imo gengar is a threat in the meta rn due to its combination of speed and power along with its move pool thats deeper than the Marianas trench. So all in all Keep gengar A+.

Lando-I can go either way atm. It threatens defensive teams heavily with its raw power and different utility options but its gotten alot weaker against offensive teams with the massive speed creep. Rp is very matchup based imo and wont always pull its weight against offensive teams plus the cost of using lando-i is that you can't use lando-t which is arguably the easiest mon to slap on a team rn. I can't really say where I think it should go rn I'l probably come back to it after reading some of the future arguments.

Mpinsir should definetly stay. Although its speed tier got worse ironically all the new fast megas get shredded by aerialate quick attack such as Mlop, Mbee, and Mscep. Alotta teams are also cutting back on the birdspan counters in this meta which lets Mpinsir due its job just as good as it has been since Rotom-w does not appreciate a +2 CC and is not too hard to wear down.
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 210-248 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It really does'nt have too much oppurtunity cost for using it after the mence era since the only other mega to use on birdspam is pidgeot. So imo keep Mega Pinsir A+.

Edit: After seeing some arguments ive changed my opinions a little bit. Mbro should drop because of how teams are very prepared for it and the other reasons that have been stated many teams from others. Azu should definetly not drop as the CB and BD sets have gotten a lot stronger in oras which offsets the loss in viability to its AV set. So to finish this Mbro should drop and azu should stay in A+.