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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Yeah I'm not sure why Azumarill wasn't brought up as being one of the weaker A+ ranks. Back in MMence meta we all pretty much agreed it should drop, and not much changed for it tbh. Its lost its greatest niche in checking Greninja, it receives competition from Mega-Altaria as a physical Fairy-type, gained a few new checks in Mega-Slowbro, Mega-Sceptile and especially Mega-Metagross (a very dangerous thing to be a free switchin to). I guess it kinda checks Sableye which is nice but it can't switch into a WoW from it so it should never be your answer to it. A few of the things it checks (Terrakion, Mamoswine, Dragonite) dropped in usage, and some stuff it loses to like Celebi and to some extent Breloom got more popular. Not to mention, the fact that Rotom-W and Ferrothorn are on basically 50% of teams atm (barely an exaggeration) is very bad news for the bunny. I'm all for it dropping honestly, it's nowhere near as good as it once was and finds a much harder time fitting itself on teams, especially since Clefable seems to be the go-to fairy atm.
About Mega-Altaria : The great thing about MAlt is that it's able to fill many roles at once. I don't really think of the bulky DD set as a sweeper, I think of it as a wall and team supporter that just happens to also be a win condition. It's aim isn't to sweep, it's to switch into stuff and then, when the coast is clear and all the Steel types are gone (which isn't too hard to pull off given that Steel types are generally easy to wear down, most of them besides Skarmory and Jirachi lacking reliable recovery) it can DD up and sweep. This gives it a lot more offensive presence than your average wall/cleric. Then there's the fact that it's pretty tricky to handle at times due to how versatile it is. Most usual switchins to the DD set (Ferrothrorn, Skarmory, Scizor) get smacked by Fire Blast which makes it a really good lure to these Pokemon. It pretty much runs what it wants depending on what it wants to check, I mean yeah monoattacking is stopped by steel types but if you run monoattacking chances are you don't really care about Steel types anyway, if you want to hit those you can just run EQ or Fire Blast. MAltaria is a team supporter first and foremost, and the fact that it can actually set up and sweep makes it all the more worthwhile, I definitely think it deserved to stay in A+.
ShadesOfSolomon, my guess is that the rise in usage and relevance of Celebi and Chesanught, who both completely wall it, and the relevance of Stall in general which is a playstyle against which Breloom is hard pressed to do anything at all prevents it from being A-.
About Mega-Altaria : The great thing about MAlt is that it's able to fill many roles at once. I don't really think of the bulky DD set as a sweeper, I think of it as a wall and team supporter that just happens to also be a win condition. It's aim isn't to sweep, it's to switch into stuff and then, when the coast is clear and all the Steel types are gone (which isn't too hard to pull off given that Steel types are generally easy to wear down, most of them besides Skarmory and Jirachi lacking reliable recovery) it can DD up and sweep. This gives it a lot more offensive presence than your average wall/cleric. Then there's the fact that it's pretty tricky to handle at times due to how versatile it is. Most usual switchins to the DD set (Ferrothrorn, Skarmory, Scizor) get smacked by Fire Blast which makes it a really good lure to these Pokemon. It pretty much runs what it wants depending on what it wants to check, I mean yeah monoattacking is stopped by steel types but if you run monoattacking chances are you don't really care about Steel types anyway, if you want to hit those you can just run EQ or Fire Blast. MAltaria is a team supporter first and foremost, and the fact that it can actually set up and sweep makes it all the more worthwhile, I definitely think it deserved to stay in A+.
ShadesOfSolomon, my guess is that the rise in usage and relevance of Celebi and Chesanught, who both completely wall it, and the relevance of Stall in general which is a playstyle against which Breloom is hard pressed to do anything at all prevents it from being A-.
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Because it's easier than the offensive threats in A- to check or wall, with Pokemon such as Mega Metagross, Clefable, Mega Altaria, Mega Sableye, Mega Latias, Mega Scizor, Mega Venusaur, Mega Heracross, Celebi, and the list goes on. Also, Mega Sableye hinders its performance as a Sash lead, while SD + 3 attacks sets are easier to deal with thanks to the introduction of the new MEvos.
theV8man, Crawdaunt didn't move up because it's viability didn't really change. It can fuck up stall quite badly, which is a big asset, but it got a new hard counter in Mega Altaria, in addition to other common checks in balance and offense, such as Keldeo, Azumarill, Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, and Mega Venusaur, so offensive and balanced teams usually have 2 checks to it. [/QUOTE]
As for Azumarill to A rank, i actually forgot about it, as i also think it's possibly one of the lowest A+ Pokemon, so yeah, feel free to discuss about it too.
Ive been off for a bit, but I will just say I am totally fine dropping all 4 of those except gengar. I think the opportuniy cost/support needed for megabro and megapinsir are not A+. And lando just doesnt have the tools to be effective against all team types. Gengar is a monster with a good speed tier(idk why people say this tier is good sometimes and bad others) I mean gengar can usually afford to risk the speed tie against things like gallade or megagross because if gengar loses its unfortunate but if they lose, the team just suffered a huge loss/wincon.
I think azu should stay A+ as well, I will admit his av set got worse, but his band and bd set got better. He is so good now with bd+knock off that things that use to wall him like ferro,amoongus,skarm,empoleon,the list goes on, all get outsped and OHKOd with knock off, and it doesnt need to run spower which is nice. The only thing stall really has are unaware mons. Snd yeah his sb set is good for punching holes in things, I think its A+.
so yeah gengar and azu for A+, drop the rest of the fools.
I think azu should stay A+ as well, I will admit his av set got worse, but his band and bd set got better. He is so good now with bd+knock off that things that use to wall him like ferro,amoongus,skarm,empoleon,the list goes on, all get outsped and OHKOd with knock off, and it doesnt need to run spower which is nice. The only thing stall really has are unaware mons. Snd yeah his sb set is good for punching holes in things, I think its A+.
so yeah gengar and azu for A+, drop the rest of the fools.
What do people here think about Heatran atm?
The offensive SR set is decent at its job, especially because its among the few SR setters that can beat sableeye 1on1 but aside from that i dont find it all that useful atm. Scarf is extremely prediction reliant, especially if there is another Heatran on the opposing team but bulky waters and the Latis (even more if they have recover) can also switch into Fireblast/Overheat with ease and the coverage moves like hp ice, Ancientpower/Stone edge are piss weak and only useful for a handfull targets. The SpD set is basicly only for the Latis and Mega Manetric at this point. And the Latis can carry Surf/EQ. Personally i usually go for Empoleon by now if i need a spd Steeltype. Has better typing, Defog and a similar offensive presence. If i look through the viability list the number of things that Heatran beats seems kinda insignificant compared to the number of things that walk all over it.
The offensive SR set is decent at its job, especially because its among the few SR setters that can beat sableeye 1on1 but aside from that i dont find it all that useful atm. Scarf is extremely prediction reliant, especially if there is another Heatran on the opposing team but bulky waters and the Latis (even more if they have recover) can also switch into Fireblast/Overheat with ease and the coverage moves like hp ice, Ancientpower/Stone edge are piss weak and only useful for a handfull targets. The SpD set is basicly only for the Latis and Mega Manetric at this point. And the Latis can carry Surf/EQ. Personally i usually go for Empoleon by now if i need a spd Steeltype. Has better typing, Defog and a similar offensive presence. If i look through the viability list the number of things that Heatran beats seems kinda insignificant compared to the number of things that walk all over it.
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Not crazy about mega pinsir being in A tbh, it's speed might not be as godly as it was in XY, but it still beats the 100 tier, and random stuff like garchomp and landorus. flying-spam is also surprisingly unprepared for in this meta, and stuff like rhyperior and zapdos are heavily falling out of usage. Quick attack/feint is also a blessing for a fighting-infested tier, and it's bulk is heavily underrated. Stay A+.
The thing about Mega Pinsir that imo makes it A+ rank is that it does all of the wallbreaking it needs to set up a late-game sweep by itself. You have rain teams. you have sand teams. You have all kinds of teams that work together to dismantle the opponent. And then you have "Mega Pinsir" teams, because if you give this one Pokemon the right support, it does all the offensive work for a team by itself. By pairing this thing up with a trapper and hazard control (which most teams have as a given) you have such an insanely powerful and dangerous Pokemon at your hands. I personally don't see how Pinsir's viability has decreased when there's no new toys for stall to handle it and most of the offensive megas are easily taken care of with priority. The only exceptions are Metagross and Diancie, and to somewhat take care of this you could run earthquake, which is perfectly fine over CC. As someone who has used Mega Pinsir a lot, I can confidently say that Pinsir is performing better than last gen. It's just so easy to use. Wear down what can take a hit or hit it first, and then kill. Yes, it requires more support than the other A+ ranks, but what you get in return (!!!) is completely worth it.
=> A+
Attachments
Mega Sableye is not just a wall, but also a stallbreaker and bulky setup Pokemon. M-Venasaur has incredible bulk and an immunity to toxic. Although M-Altaria has heal bell, it kills momentum.
Meanwhile, Mega Altaria is...
... pretty much everything but a weather setter. It's stats, movepool and unique traits are such that you can tailor it to fit into just about any role you could want to. Wall, Cleric, Set-up sweeper, Tank, Physical, Special... there's a ridiculous amount it can do and to just say it's only a 'wall' is a massive misrepresentation of it.
Although my post was talking more about M-Pinsir's late game capabilities, it also functions really well as a wallbreaker. For this, hazard control is a must but even checks like Landorus-T and M-Metagross take a ton of damage from Aerilate Return.
For a similar reason to why M-Gardevoir is A+, the wallbreaking capabilties of M-Pinsir are just too horrific.
M-Altaria has a lot of versatility but I feel that it is doesn't particularly excel in any of its sets. I think it's outclassed by Sylveon/Chansey as a cleric, the SpA set outclassed somewhat by CM Clefable and its DD set outclassed by M-Charizard X.
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Pent
dumb broad
The problem with your statement is Mega Altaria's typing and boost from both DD and Pixilate. I feel it is Superior to MCharizardX because it only has 3 Weakness' it can take care of Easily with Fire Blast or Earthquake. (Poison, Steel, Ice.) And, the weaknesses it does have aren't the most popular types. Ice is only with Weavile and Mamoswine. Steel with Ferrothorn and Bisharp, and with Ferrothorn you can OHKO it with Fire Blast. And Poison is Venusaur, who is really you're only threat. If you pair MAltaria with something like Excadrill or Latias, you can easily deal with Venusuar (Most likely Mega) and get rid of the damaging rocks before Mega Evolving. Mega Charizard X has some more common type weaknesses. (Rock, Dragon, Ground) Ground types, which are really popular right now, don't help Charizard at all, and if you're against a Defensive/Scarfed Lando-T, you're screwed. Garchomp, Mamoswine, both Landorus', and I believe Earth Power Heatran all are rather Scurry to CharizardX, especially if the Heatran is AB and offensive. Next is Dragon, and. Could go on forever. Kingdra, Rain teams paired with Swift Swim. Salamence, Scarfed or using LO. Garchomp, Sash lead or Scarfed. Dragonite, Banded, Leftovers DD, Weakness Policy. Etc. Etc.
My main point is that M-Altaria is the more balanced Megamence, but still is countered/checked by things. And, is better than MegazardX.
Italic = not sure about the changes
I support Azumarill to A, because it is simply worse than in XY.
I could see Mega Gardevoir to A because its speed tier is not very good and it really lacks physical bulk. Moreover, it receives new checks with ORAS. But it is really hard to swith into and checks many new megas, so I can see it stay in A+.
Gengar can also drop to A because it lacks bulk and usually lacks power to achieve OHKOs. However, it's still a very dangerous threat, so it coud stay A+.
Keldeo may drop to A because it received many new checks/counters with the new megas (Metagross, Gallade, Altaria, Sceptile, Loppuny, Slowbro, Diancie, Latias) and Celebi is rising. But this changes made its Scarf set more viable and checks Greninja (can switch in every moves except Gunk Shot), which is extremely useful.
I have not really opinion about Pinsir. Sure it's a monstruous late-game cleaner, but it seems less dangerous than in XY.
Mega Slowbro must stay in A+. It is incredibly hard to stop at +1, it has a monstruous physical bulk, can set up without risk of critical hit, has a good recovery move and hits hard even without boost (130 SpA !). This monster should not drop !
I support Azumarill to A, because it is simply worse than in XY.
I could see Mega Gardevoir to A because its speed tier is not very good and it really lacks physical bulk. Moreover, it receives new checks with ORAS. But it is really hard to swith into and checks many new megas, so I can see it stay in A+.
Gengar can also drop to A because it lacks bulk and usually lacks power to achieve OHKOs. However, it's still a very dangerous threat, so it coud stay A+.
Keldeo may drop to A because it received many new checks/counters with the new megas (Metagross, Gallade, Altaria, Sceptile, Loppuny, Slowbro, Diancie, Latias) and Celebi is rising. But this changes made its Scarf set more viable and checks Greninja (can switch in every moves except Gunk Shot), which is extremely useful.
I have not really opinion about Pinsir. Sure it's a monstruous late-game cleaner, but it seems less dangerous than in XY.
Mega Slowbro must stay in A+. It is incredibly hard to stop at +1, it has a monstruous physical bulk, can set up without risk of critical hit, has a good recovery move and hits hard even without boost (130 SpA !). This monster should not drop !
Azumarills effectiveness traded off its role from the AV set to its Choice Band and BD sets. Knock Off BD is an extremely dangerous set that turns its defensive checks into a liability. Choice Band there's not much that needs to be said Rotom-W and Ferrothorn might check it but they're realistically not going to be switching in and taking the brunt of a heavy hit. That's a given A+ for me.
Heatran is one of the more consistent Rock setters in the meta right now. Speedy support set is fantastic in giving it leverage amongst balanced cores while still having the utility against stall. Empoleon and Heatran are two different things. One is getting screwed over by Magnezone all the time, Empoleon, while Heatran can actually threaten it. Heatran has both the ability to phase and Taunt if need be, Empoleon can only provide the former. Heatran falls under a much more useful speed tier to tie in with all its positives. And no Empoleon doesn't have a similar offensive presence if anything it can't even capitalize on it as well as Empoleon because it either goes for a support role or that offensive specs set (do people even use this?). Heatran can provide fantastic synergy, SR, Phasing, and definitely needs to be taken into account as an A+ ranked threat.
Heatran is one of the more consistent Rock setters in the meta right now. Speedy support set is fantastic in giving it leverage amongst balanced cores while still having the utility against stall. Empoleon and Heatran are two different things. One is getting screwed over by Magnezone all the time, Empoleon, while Heatran can actually threaten it. Heatran has both the ability to phase and Taunt if need be, Empoleon can only provide the former. Heatran falls under a much more useful speed tier to tie in with all its positives. And no Empoleon doesn't have a similar offensive presence if anything it can't even capitalize on it as well as Empoleon because it either goes for a support role or that offensive specs set (do people even use this?). Heatran can provide fantastic synergy, SR, Phasing, and definitely needs to be taken into account as an A+ ranked threat.
Just to clarify, i was comparing Empoleons SpD set with Heatrans SpD set which is usually Lavaplume + support moves. And between those 2 sets there isnt much difference in offensive power. Ofc Heatran has more sets available making him better overall, but i was just refering to his SpD set.
I think the big reason Mega Altaria I could see Mega Altaria dropping is that it's versatile enough to play all the above roles, but it's not proficient to play more than one effectively at once. So while the player might not quite know what handles it at a glance, many teams will probably have checks to it by nature.
If it's a Wall and Cleric, there's a decent number of things that can set up on it, considering it doesn't hit much harder than Sylveon uninvested w/ Return. If it's a DDer, it needs to depend more on its bulk to get the (multiple) boosts its going to need, since its power is and coverage is more lacking compared to Zard-X, not to mention lacking the immediate power to force a switch. The bulky set needs to get more boosts because they obviously have less offensive investment, while offensive sets have to be careful what they switch into since Altaria's natural bulk and typing, while good, only get it so far. And the Special sets are a bit more prediction reliant because, unlike something like Sylveon, Altaria doesn't have an item to supplement it's decent-but-not-great power.
The immediate competition I find myself imagining with boosting Altaria is Gyarados, who hits harder as a Mega, shares Altaria's role as a more bulky Dragon Dancer, can be played differently with his Pre-Mega Typing, finds more set up opportunities with Intimidate, and has greater natural bulk (though lacking recovery).
That's my gripe with Altaria: its versatility is as a "Jack-of-All-Trades, Master-of-None" since there is almost always something giving it stiff competition for a role, even if those sets are viable in their own right. It's not quite like (for lack of an immediate OU comparison) Aegislash, who had several sets he could pull off with definite benefits over those he'd compete with. If that versatility is enough to keep Altaria A+, then I won't protest, but I wouldn't be surprised if Altaria dropped to A
I'm not to sure on how I feel about Mega Gard dropping. In fact, I'd say Mega Gard is extremely anti metagame at the moment, and the fact that hardly anyone is using it is quite a shame. Although there are a few new megas that give it trouble, such as Mega Metagross and Mega Lop to an extent (Return is doing a shit ton to Gard), the transition from XY to ORAS just made Mega Gard far more useful IMO. If you look at the viability rankings, just look at the sheer amount of Pokemon Mega Gard checks. Mega Sableye is an extremely dominating force at the moment, and can be a huge nuisance to almost any team lacking a Fairy-type. Mega Gard not only completely destroys it with a Pixilate Hyper Voice, but it can also Trace its Magic Bounce ability upon switch-in before it Megas, basically giving it a pseudo immunity to its Wisp. It also stops Mega Slowbro cold with Taunt, or just straight up setting up on it with CM if you happen to run it. It's a great check to Mega Altaria before it sets up, as well as Mega Gallade, Keldeo, Mega Gyarados, Latios, Rotom-W, Mega Venu, Mega Scep, Breloom, Mew, etc. It's just an outstanding offensive Pokemon at the moment, as well as an insanely good stallbreaker which absolutely rips through the common Mega Sableye stall that we are beginning to see all the damn time. Yes its Speed tier may be less significant, although it was never THAT significant in the first place, and it faces more competition for a slot because of the vast amount of new mega evolutions, but other than a few gained checks, Mega Gardevoir only got more useful from the transition from XY to ORAS, and I don't really think dropping it would seem practical, as it is still one of the more useful megas in the tier.
Once the ORAS hype dies down, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Mega Gard popping up a lot more. It's just so good right now, and people should begin realizing that.
On Mega Pinsir, I would say it's almost as good as it was late XY if not better as well, and I don't think it should drop either. Speed means everything in this metagame at the moment, and Mega Pinsir isn't slow, but misses out on a majority of Mega evolutions. However, notice how a lot of the very fast Mega evos, such as Mega Lop, Scep, and Gallade, are all weak as hell to Quick Attack? This makes Mega Pinsir an outstanding answer to many of the new megas, as well as an incredible early game hole puncher. I feel like a lot of people focus on whether or not Mega Pinsir is sweeping frequently or not, but that's not how I primarily view Mega Pinsir anymore. Yes it can clean up weakened teams at +2 once everything is weakened, but with the massive amounts of Scarf Landos and Rotoms and Talons, I mostly view Mega Pinsir as one of the best hole punchers in the meta atm. Scarf Lando isn't very bulky because of its lack of investment, so it's very easy to wear down with repeated Returns and chip damage, Rotom-W as well. With something like Zone as a partner, it's very easy to remove its true counters, such as Skarm. It's only true major flaw is how easily it is pressured by Stealth Rocks, but with the proper support and team pressure, keeping rocks off the field shouldn't be an impossible task.
All I'm saying is that if Mega Pinsir was considered an A+ threat in late XY, I don't really see how it's deserving of a lower rank now. Yes it gained some new checks, but it also gained more usefulness in the ability to check some of the most dangerous new Megas in the metagame. If you're the retard that tries to set up an SD when Lando-T and Rotom-W are still healthy vs just clicking Return and weakening everything, then you deserve to lose.
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Mega Charizard X is much better offensively than Mega Altaria is. It has better offensive typing and stats. It's typing has MUCH better offensive synergy (one of the few Dragons that isn't walled by Steel types) and its attack and speed are miles better than Mega Altaria's. Mega Altaria is definitely a better defensive Pokemon, but offensively Mega Charizard X's SD/TW and speedy DD sets are just better. It also needs less set up js.
Many of these checks you listed can potentially beat Keldeo, but Keldeo is only meant to stay in for a few turns anyways. Lopunny and Diancie cannot switch in at all, and neiher can Sceptile, Metagross, or Altaria, unless Keldeo is locked into the appropriate move for the latter three. Altaria and Latias are solid checks, but they both take a lot of damage from Keldeo's Icy Wind. Mega Slowbro itself seems terrifying, but offense usually has the tools needed to best it. The increased usage of Celebi is notable, but I really cannot see your current argument as valid for making it drop. If you want to nominate it to drop, you are best talking about its speed and not Pokemon that outspeed it, as most offensive teams still have the same troubles switching into Keldeo as they did in XY.
Mega Altaria isn't outclassed by any of these mons. It has a niche that separates it from each of them.
First thing's first, Altaria isn't a wall, it's a pivot; it doesn't have enough raw "power" (for a lack of a better word) in its stats. Its HP, Def, and SpDef may not be as great as Chansey's or Sylveon's, but it can sure as hell force something out thanks to its great offensive and defensive typing + the risk of it setting up, etc.
Concerning Megazard X, Altaria is the one who outclasses it, specifically thru the bulky DD set. Thanks to its better defensive typing and not being as weak to SR as Zard, it can perform a bulky DD set better. However, I will admit Zard outclasses Altaria when it comes to an offensive DD set.
And lastly, about CM Clefable outclassing Altaria, again, it doesn't. CM Clef is a sweeper, Specially Offensive Altaria isn't; if I'm not mistaken, it functions as a lure (though I may be wrong). I don't think anything else needs to be said about this.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 325-384 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria Return vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 421-496 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Altaria actually hits considerably harder than Mega Gyarados, thanks to Pixilate. Any difference in bulk thanks to Intimidate is largely offset by the fact that it has a far superior defensive typing to Mega Gyarados, as well as much better recovery (both Roost and Heal Bell).
As for comparing M-Alt's power to Sylveon's - 'it doesn't hit much harder than Sylveon uninvested w/ Return' is somewhat meaningless, since most DD builds are at least somewhat invested in attack, and hit on the physical side rather than the special side. Even then the comparison isn't apt, since Sylveon's Hyper Voice has around 25 less BP when factoring in STAB and Pixilate - roughly equivalent to the difference between Aurora Beam and Ice Beam.
No offense, but some of the comments being made here make me wonder if people have any experience with Mega Altaria at all. +1 is all it needs to run a train through most teams, and if you manage a +2 and still can't sweep, you're either running a really suboptimal build or are attempting an early sweep without consideration for the usual prerequisite softening up or removal of the opponent's counters (which is pretty much battling 101).
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Azumarill absolutely should not drop to A Rank. While the Assault Vest set has gotten a bit worse in ORAS, this is more than made up for by the buffs to the CB and BD sets. BD hit the jackpot with access to BD + Knock Off + AJet, finally, allowing it to tear apart Ferrothorn and Amoonguss without resorting to gimmicky options. It can sweep offensive teams with certain things weakened in a heartbeat, and even if it doesn't sweep, it is likely to kill 1 Pokemon at least and get off damage on something else. It also sweeps stall teams without Mega Venusaur or an Unaware user. This is not even mentioning the Choice Band set, which is a veritable threat to all teamstyles. It matches up relatively well against some of the new Megas, such as Mega Lopunny, Mega Gallade, Mega Altaria, Mega Sableye, and Mega Diancie, which gives it a leg up against offense. In general, every time it gets in against offense, something dies or takes a heavy hit at the least. Meanwhile, balanced and stall teams have a lot of difficulty walling it, as Skarmory is 2HKOed after Stealth Rock damage and Ferrothorn can be OHKOed by a well-timed Superpower. It doesn't really have much in the way of comfortable counters; almost nothing wants to take a hit from it. Plus, its Aqua Jet is a potent cleaning tool, as it is very strong with the Choice Band boost. Azumarill is still an extremely solid Pokemon.
Mega Altaria should not drop to A Rank either, especially while Mega Charizard X remains in A+ Rank. Mega Altaria is a diverse and threatening Pokemon that provides a lot of defensive utility and can be difficult to switch into depending on its moveset. Mixed defensive Clefable is actually 2HKOed by invested Return, and regardless Clefable needs an Unaware set to have a shot vs even bulky DD variants because:
+1 0 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 204-241 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Meanwhile, other 'counters' such as Mega Scizor, Taunt + Counter Skarmory, Mega Metagross, Ferrothorn, Jirachi, and Taunt + Toxic Heatran can be eliminated with the right set or coverage move, that being Fire Blast or Earthquake. This isn't even taking into account just how damn good the standard bulky DD set is, especially with proper support. As you can see in the calc above, it's pretty strong even without any Attack investment, and it has the bulk to take a hit from almost anything. For instance, neither Gunk Shot nor Ice Beam Greninja can OHKO Mega Altaria -- that's some serious bulk. While it definitely has some common answers, such as Ferrothorn and Heatran, these can be lured and/or trapped and you could say the same for certain other A+ Rank Pokemon, especially Mega Gyarados, which has a rather significant amount of common answers. Not being revenge killed by Choice Scarf Landorus-T (it can't break bulky Mega Altaria) is a huge plus, too.
Mega Altaria should not drop to A Rank either, especially while Mega Charizard X remains in A+ Rank. Mega Altaria is a diverse and threatening Pokemon that provides a lot of defensive utility and can be difficult to switch into depending on its moveset. Mixed defensive Clefable is actually 2HKOed by invested Return, and regardless Clefable needs an Unaware set to have a shot vs even bulky DD variants because:
+1 0 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 204-241 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Meanwhile, other 'counters' such as Mega Scizor, Taunt + Counter Skarmory, Mega Metagross, Ferrothorn, Jirachi, and Taunt + Toxic Heatran can be eliminated with the right set or coverage move, that being Fire Blast or Earthquake. This isn't even taking into account just how damn good the standard bulky DD set is, especially with proper support. As you can see in the calc above, it's pretty strong even without any Attack investment, and it has the bulk to take a hit from almost anything. For instance, neither Gunk Shot nor Ice Beam Greninja can OHKO Mega Altaria -- that's some serious bulk. While it definitely has some common answers, such as Ferrothorn and Heatran, these can be lured and/or trapped and you could say the same for certain other A+ Rank Pokemon, especially Mega Gyarados, which has a rather significant amount of common answers. Not being revenge killed by Choice Scarf Landorus-T (it can't break bulky Mega Altaria) is a huge plus, too.
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I am assuming you mean "should not drop?"
Concerning Mega Pinsir, I think some people may be looking at it wrong. I don't really look at Pinsir as a sweeper first, I look at it as a wallbreaker first that happens to have pretty good sweeping potential as well. It's interesting that TRC brought up stall being closer to early XY stall, as XY stall had a ton of issues with Pinsir even before Aegi got banned (back when Pinsir had to run Earthquake, leaving it hard walled by Skarm). Skarm can easily be overwhelmed by teammates, and CC 2HKOs at +2 anyway. I guess non-Mega Sableye can Prankster burn it, but even then it has to be in reasonably good health to revenge-burn it at +2. The way it absolutely massacres stall, combined with the way it still holds it's weight against balance and offense unlike other wallbreakers gives it a strong case for staying in A+.
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