Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

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blinkie

¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯ dank meme crew
sorry im on mobile
but, gastrodon is also weak to all those things you mentioned?
they both are supporting mons that serve as rain checks, but gastro has reliable recovery and seismitoad has rocks and knock off. but another thing that seismitoad has is the potential to go with swift swim, whereas gastro is stuck as a defensive, and pretty passive mon that relies on status to do damage. actually, what do you think about gastro for c? it honestly has a lot more threats to handle this gen, like new megas like sceptile. the return of breloom (especially toxic orb) and celebi isnt doing it any favors either. imo its passive and outclassed in almost every way by something else, and not as good as stuff like cobalion or goodra in the current meta.
Yeah how bout Gastro for C but still tho it would probs be a better choice than Seismitoad on most teams, so maybe Gastrodon for C and also Seismitoad for C-? Both didn't get much now although Seismitoad lost a bit more IMO with the introduction of Swampert-mega it lost a niche. I don't think they should drop any lower though cause mega Venue usage dropped a lot. Ninja also doesn't run Hydro anymore so yeah makes more sense for both to drop. As a lot of people mentioned already, the most viable Seismitoad set is no longer the Swift Swimmer set which actually is pretty bad atm.
 
Is it ok if I bring Infernape up for discussion? I think he still has some potential for wallbreaking, but with megabro, mega-sableye, landorous, azu, and rotom running around, he may be considerably less effective. I'd nominate him for a drop.
 
Is it ok if I bring Infernape up for discussion? I think he still has some potential for wallbreaking, but with megabro, mega-sableye, landorous, azu, and rotom running around, he may be considerably less effective. I'd nominate him for a drop.
I think Infernape is fine where he is tbh. Although offensively he isn't all that great anymore, it is still a pretty solid anti-lead. It still takes care of slower leads with taunt to makes sure they cant lay hazards, breaking sashes woth breakout, and still using dual stabs to try and dosh out damage. I still believe it is a good scarfer honestly as well. He's also a pretty good mixed attacker.
 
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I always feel like Conkeldurr is trying to do too much. It is okay, but it really is not that amazing either. I do not care about its placement either, but I feel that nobody is really going to let Conk do these things except from using Knock Off and luring in Lando-T with Ice Punch. While Mega Saur declining in usage is good for it, Conk still really is not that strong, and I do not think making it rise is currently warranted in this metagame. Feel free to disagree and rebuke me though.
I think the decline of Mega Saur actually hasn't been that great for him, since those same people are now using Mega-Sableye instead. Mega-Sableye can abuse Conkeldurr even more than Venusaur could. Considering Sableye users turn this into a win condition, that is bad news.

EDIT: Edit to say that this assumes he doesn't come in and get burned. I suppose if he gets burned, it could become a problem later.
 
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Flygon should definitely go to D-Rank. There is literally no reason to use this thing in OU besides defog, and in that case you're better of with (Mega) Lati@s, with a much better speed tier. Hell, let's just take this thing off the charts altogether. It is completely and utterly outclassed by Garchomp (for same typing and stats) and the Lati twins (if you wanna be that guy who brings up levitate and defog). And if you're actually using Flygon as a U-Turn pivot in OU, you probably need to leave (Lando T will escort you to the door.)
 
Flygon should definitely go to D-Rank. There is literally no reason to use this thing in OU besides defog, and in that case you're better of with (Mega) Lati@s, with a much better speed tier. Hell, let's just take this thing off the charts altogether. It is completely and utterly outclassed by Garchomp (for same typing and stats) and the Lati twins (if you wanna be that guy who brings up levitate and defog). And if you're actually using Flygon as a U-Turn pivot in OU, you probably need to leave (Lando T will escort you to the door.)
Well, it is in D-rank. More on topic he looks like he can be decent defogger with resistance to all hazards, but then you simply compare it with latios and the only possible niche over him is probably defog+u-turn which isn't much.
 
Well, it is in D-rank. More on topic he looks like he can be decent defogger with resistance to all hazards, but then you simply compare it with latios and the only possible niche over him is probably defog+u-turn which isn't much.
What I meant was that Flygon should be unviable in OU altogether, although I acknowledge its solid in UU :]
 
there has to be someone who can make mega audino viable... right? :[
Sorry your fresh out of luck unless gamefreak somehow do a balance patch where abilities get changed. There is literraly nothing in OU that in can do thats not done better by something else without wasting the mega slot. Wanna use calm mind, grab a clefable or Sylveon, Want a utility bot Use Chansey. Need a cleric Use Chansey, BLissey, Clefable, Sylveon, tack heal bell onto Celebi, use healing wish on Latias or heck even use unranked stuff like Umbreon or Vaporeon if you need something niche. Not only do they all have better abilities, movepools and Typings. They dont waste your megaslot and actually do stuff beyond sitting there, taking attacks and becoming set up bait.

Look I know we should be should be discussing C+, B- but I need to ask is there actually a reason Why audino is still ranked and even for that matter Mega Steelix who is flat outclassed by aggron who struggles as it is. Feel free to ignore this until the relavent time comes if you guys like but an answer would be nice and I figured i would get it out there.

Anyway on the Topic of C+ I think Doublade may need to drop from B- to C+. While its still good at what it does which is beating the mega Stallbreakers and checking Gothitelle its no longer Stalls Lynchpin like it was in X/Y. It face's competion from the likes Mega-Sableye and mega Alteria who also beats the same pokemon while possessing far greater utility and reliable recovery without an extreme weakness to knock off. This come's on top of all its previous issues being reliant on wish passer's or rest talk for recovery, Lack of real offensive precence and being overly predictable. Its not bad and still makes a good pivot for Stall and Semi Stall teams but the fact that its nolonger the face of the archtype nor is it the near mandatory pick like it was in X/Y means I think it should drop. Thats all I will say on it for now
 
As dumb as it sounds, I once got swept by a Calm Mind/Baby-Doll Eyes Audino, lol. It's impossibly bulky on both sides and I just had nothing that could touch it. Obviously a silly set that's way too matchup reliant, but that thing takes hits for days. If it retained Regenerator after mega evolving I'm convinced it would be an A tier defensive threat (basically a much, much better version of Alomomola).
 
As dumb as it sounds, I once got swept by a Calm Mind/Baby-Doll Eyes Audino, lol. It's impossibly bulky on both sides and I just had nothing that could touch it. Obviously a silly set that's way too matchup reliant, but that thing takes hits for days. If it retained Regenerator after mega evolving I'm convinced it would be an A tier defensive threat (basically a much, much better version of Alomomola).
Still don't think it would be A, considering that alomomola's wishes are so much bigger, and that alomomola gets scald. Not to mention audino uses up your crucial mega slot.
 
Still don't think it would be A, considering that alomomola's wishes are so much bigger, and that alomomola gets scald. Not to mention audino uses up your crucial mega slot.
But with Regenerator, Mega Audino could pass Wishes and provide an offensive presence with Calm Mind on the same set. Its defensive stats are much more well-rounded than Alo's and it also has better support options in Heal Bell and Encore to stop things trying to set up on it.

But alas, this is theorymon. Mega Audino is a wasted opportunity as it currently stands.
 
If you are going to be passing wishes to your teammates, why would you be running calm mind lol... Alo can also hold leftovers, as well as having access to knock off.
 
If you are going to be passing wishes to your teammates, why would you be running calm mind lol... Alo can also hold leftovers, as well as having access to knock off.
The same reason mons like Empoleon and Skarmory run Stealth Rock and Defog on the same set; because they fucking can. Sponge hits and pass Wishes early game, Calm Mind up and sweep late game (fairy STAB has 0 immunities). fyi, Audino learns Knock Off as well.

But let's stop shitting up the thread now. This mon is D-rank.
 
While we're on the subject of Mega Audino, I would like to post a thing I made a bit ago when I first started using Mega Audino. I've edited it accordingly to the current times and still think it's holding true.

Mega Audino: D Rank ---> C- Rank
Alright, I know Mega Audino is really not viewed as a good Pokemon and some people would even like it unranked, but I really don't think they're giving it enough credit. I began testing it because I felt that it was underappreciated and so I began testing a variation of alexwolf's team and it fits nicely as a Trick Room setter. Though, I really enjoy bulky wall sets. I've come up with this:

Audino @ Audinite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 188 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Wish
- Protect / Fire Blast
- Dazzling Gleam / Hyper Voice

Basically, this set is a worse Clefable with the added benefit of not being impacted by Knock Off, having higher bulk than Clefable, and being unique before it mega evolves. This is another thing I'd like to bring up, Audino doesn't necessarily have to evolve right away. It can use Wish to pivot into something else and abuse Regenerator, then mega evolve when the need arises. The EVs are a bit adjustable, but this gives it an extremely low chance of being 2HKOed by Mega Gallade's Close Combat, allows it to better take on Landorus-T's invested Earthquakes, makes Latios' Psyshocks a bit better to stomach, gives it a ~20% chance to be 2HKOed by Talonflame's Brave Bird, and so on. The reason one would choose to use it over Clefable is that Mega Audino actually fully walls Landorus, being 3HKOed by its Earth Power. Audino can take hits from Scarf Heatran, Mega Scizor, Thundurus, Mega Venusaur, and Latios, better than Clefable can. No, it can't wall these Pokemon, but it stands a better chance against them than Clefable can ever hope for. The loss of Leftovers is truly a big hit, I'll give Clefable that. Both have a large case of 4MSS; Mega Audino especially wants to run all of Thunder Wave / Wish / Protect / Dazzling Gleam / Heal Bell / Fire Blast, but it just can't. I ran a bunch of calcs to demonstrate its bulkiness and wrote a brief sentence about every Pokemon in S and A+ Rank and how they fare against Mega Audino and Clefable, for comparison:


Mega Charizard X gives both a lot of trouble, however, Mega Audino is able to live a Flare Blitz from Mega Charizard X at +1 which Clefable can also do while running Unaware, but that's a different story. It's a shaky check at this point, but it leaves it room to Thunder Wave it, effectively crippling it. Neither truly fare well against it, but Mega Audino at least has a higher chance than Clefable of pulling off a Thunder Wave. Otherwise, both should not be used to wall Mega Charizard X.


Greninja is a monster lol, its Gunk Shot KOes Clefable from full health; however, Mega Audino will NEVER be OHKOed by Gunk Shot, not even when fully invested. It's interesting to note that Greninja can not 2HKO either with Hydro Pump, so that's something they share in common. Both suffer when fighting Greninja, but Mega Audino is once again able to pull off a Thunder Wave whereas Clefable has no hope of being able to. It's also interesting to note that Greninja has a 50% chance to KO Mega Audino should switch into a Hydro Pump then stomach a Gunk Shot, whereas Clefable is completely destroyed if it attempts to do this. There's also the fact that Greninja has to rely on both moves having 80% accuracy, so a miss could be beneficial to both of these Pokemon and could potentially change the outcome.

but this is suspect so^


This is one Pokemon I was excited to discuss. Keldeo, with Choice Specs Hydro Pump, can not 2HKO Mega Audino without Stealth Rock. Its damage output is 41.9 - 49.7%, just barely missing the cutoff. Even with Stealth Rock, Mega Audino has a chance to live it anyways. Secret Sword will always be doing less damage, but it will never 2HKO even with Stealth Rock. Clefable, on the other hand, is always 2HKOed by Hydro Pump no matter what. This is one crucial Pokemon Mega Audino checks that Clefable is not able to! The one thing is Scald, which no Pokemon particularly enjoys, but Mega Audino does risk the burn chance by switching directly into Scald. It is important to note, though, that Mega Audino can stall it out with Wish and can paralyze it with Thunder Wave, even when burned, thus not losing its ability to check Keldeo. All other sets than Choice Specs flat out lose to Mega Audino.


Latios is effortlessly walled by Mega Audino, which has a tiny chance to avoid the 3HKO even! Clefable, on the other hand, is 2HKOed by Psyshock with the slightest bit of prior damage. Or, should it switch in, it is then left utterly crippled for anything else due to it taking two rounds of Psyshock. Both are fantastic checks, though, but Mega Audino edges out Clefable here by being a 100% solid counter to it.


Azumarill is walled by Mega Audino when not running Choice Band, while Clefable has a possibility to be 2HKOed by Play Rough. Both are absolutely shredded apart by Choice Band Play Rough, however; but what's not honestly? Overall, Mega Audino is a much more solid check to Azumarill then Clefable could ever hope to be.


Mega Audino actually fares a whole lot better than Clefable against Bisharp, as surprising as that may sound! Clefable is absolutely decimated by Iron Head, as it OHKOes nearly all of the time. Mega Audino, on the other hand, is much better suited. It can switch into a Knock Off and then mega evolve, or it can even pivot into Iron Head pre-mega evolution, then abuse Regenerator. This is a wonderful perk it has over Clefable although neither are fantastic against it because it's Bisharp ya know.


Mega Charizard Y is ferocious, neither can truly stand up to them. Mega Audino does fare a lot better, though, because it can live Fire Blast with some room and Thunder Wave it. Though, neither should directly take it on because neither can stomach its hits. Then again, not much can actually live Mega Charizard Y's hits, so I wouldn't hold this against either.


Clefable actually has the edge versus Clefable for its ability to utilize Unaware sets to break through other Magic Guard sets. Mega Audino really can't do much versus Clefable, so giving the win to Clefable here. Clefable versus Clefable is generally not even that great of a matchup, as they just wall each other, but Mega Audino especially sucks against it.


Mega Audino and Clefable both have the capacity to wall Mega Gallade. Both can paralyze and both do a lot with their Fairy-type STAB moves, especially after a Close Combat drop. It's very important to note that pre-mega Audino is a horrible matchup and will almost always get destroyed by its Close Combat, thus making it not always a safe switch in. So, Clefable would edge it out in this regard.


Garchomp loses to both, plain n simple. It can't break through Clefable unless running Life Orb, so that's something I guess, but both wall it really well and threaten it in return with their respective Fairy-type STAB moves. Clefable's Moonblast is much more likely to overcome Garchomp, though, as Mega Audino's Dazzling Gleam is only a 3HKO against standard Garchomp.


Mega Gardevoir can break through Clefable with Hyper Voice, Audino, however, is never 2HKOed by Hyper Voice, not even after Stealth Rock. This is quite an interesting perk that Mega Audino has over Clefable. Mega Gardevoir hates Thunder Wave, though Substitute variants fare very well against both. Though, if Mega Audino is running Hyper Voice, it can wear down Mega Gardevoir. It's an //ok// matchup against both, really.


Mega Audino is immune to Shadow Ball, whereas Clefable is not. Gengar hates Thunder Wave, though its Stallbreaker set is quite ugly for both Mega Audino and Clefable. Plus, any Gengar running Sludge Bomb threatens both of them, so Gengar will usually beat both Clefable and Mega Audino in these cases. Unless Mega Audino has not mega evolved, then it stands a chance, though.


Heatran indefinitely walls both, especially SubToxic, though Mega Audino can actually stomach a Flash Cannon from Scarf Heatran whereas Clefable is 2HKOed right away. At this point, Mega Audino can paralyze it via Thunder Wave. Neither particularly enjoy burns from Lava Plume on defensive sets, and must be careful to avoid these, but other than that both fare quite well in a wall versus wall situation against defensively-oriented sets.


Invested Earthquake can beat Clefable, but not Mega Audino. Both beat Landorus-T in general, though, so it's not really that much of a comparison. It's important to note that with prediction, Superpower can smack pre-mega Audino and thus KO it before it has a chance to mega evolve. Though, after mega evolving, Superpwoer will not do anywhere near as much damage and can then be Wish stalled.


Landorus deserves a special mention because Mega Audino is 3HKOed by Earth Power, whereas Clefable is 2HKOed by it, making Mega Audino the far better check. In return, though, neither can do that much but Mega Audino still is fat enough to wall it so it wins here. This is very helpful for stall teams, although they have easier times nowawadys, but an additional counter is always appreciated!


Latias is basically a worse Latios in this situation, being even weaker than Latios with its own Psyshock. Roost is helpful here and Latias can stomach both Fairy-type STAB moves, but absolutely hates Thunder Wave. Mega Latias with Substitute does ultimately win, however, as Calm Mind to boost and allow it to stomach Fairy-type moves, and Substitute to block Thunder Wave, eventually will overcome Mega Audino and Clefable both.


Mega Metagross ;_;. Beats both quite easily with its insanely strong Meteor Mash, the only hope both of them have is to catch it on the switch with Thunder Wave, which no good player will do. Meteor Mash misses come in handy in this matchup, but one should never rely on this. The one exception is pre-mega Audino, which has ~50% chance to be 2HKOed by Meteor Mash, but it's still shaky.


Mew is just irritating with its stallbreaker set, can't do much in return but Will-O-Wisp. Though, Clefable doesn't enjoy Knock Off, while Mega Audino doesn't mind one bit. Will-O-Wisp in general is bothersome, along with Taunt, so Mew can ultimately overcome them both in the end; neither of their STAB moves are going to break through Mew anytime soon. Plus, Will-O-Wisp doesn't even bother Clefable; neither ultimately win still, however.


Mega Pinsir has a 67.2% to 2HKO Mega Audino and a 100% chance to 2HKO Clefable, meaning Mega Audino is more likely to be able to paralyze Mega Pinsir via Thunder Wave. Both are decimated by +2 Return, though, but then again, what's not? Mega Audino does have a ~50% chance to be KOed by Return at +2, so a lucky roll can allow it to pull off a Thunder Wave, this should never be relied on though.


Mega Scizor always 2HKOes Clefable, Mega Audino is likely to live the Bullet Punch. Though, neither particularly enjoy it. Fire Blast from both parties can do wonderful versus switch ins, but it's generally not safe due to the risk of Swords Dance. Should a Swords Dance be pulled off, then your team will be in trouble, so Thunder Waving on this turn can be beneficial to make sure Mega Scizor will not receive a free turn to do as it pleases.


Talonflame has a 21.5% chance to 2HKO Mega Audino, Clefable is always 2HKOed; thus making Mega Audino the much better check. This is really relevant because Mega Audino can use Wish stall to overcome Talonflame eventually and actually does quite a bit with Hyper Voice, 2HKOing it after a tiny bit of recoil, Clefable fails to do this.


Thundurus will usually 4HKO Mega Audino and 3HKO Clefable, so both are good checks, though Mega Audino definitely edges out Clefable right here because it can use Wish stalling much more effectively. Mega Audino does a ton better against Nasty Plot Thundurus though, as Clefable is KOed with just a tiny bit of prior damage, though from my experience Nasty Plot isn't as common as it was.


Mega Venusaur beats both via Sludge Bomb, but Mega Audino actually has a slight chance to survive it. However, Mega Venusaur hates regular Audino which walls it to hell and back, and Thunder Wave coming from both. This is where pre-mega Audino really shines, as Sludge Bomb isn't even a guaranteed 3HKO. The risk of poison is apparent, but it's basically just hope not for it. Defensively oriented sets don't fare as well, but will eventually overcome both Clefable and Mega Audino eventually.


Now I know a long ass list of Pokemon with calcs doesn't prove much, but it's to show just how similar Clefable and Mega Audino is and to show how much bulkier Mega Audino is in comparison to Clefable. Mega Audino's biggest competition is Clefable, as Clefable can wield Leftovers, has two great abilities, checks the same stuff, and doesn't take up a mega slot. Mega Audino has perks, though, but ultimately it comes down to "why am I not using Clefable?" Yes, it's outclassed for the most part, but its fantastic bulk, typing, and uniqueness has to be taken into account for. Let's look at out D Rank, and can we really group Mega Audino with Venomoth? Which has one niche? Mega Audino deserves to be on the lines of Lanturn, Mega Aggron, and Slowking, all Pokemon that are outclassed by a higher ranked Pokemon but have their carved niches which allow them to have potential. Really, it doesn't belong in D Rank, nor does it belong to be deranked; people are not giving it enough credit as it deserves. For these reasons, I believe that Mega Audino deserves to raise to C- Rank.
 
While we're on the subject of Mega Audino, I would like to post a thing I made a bit ago when I first started using Mega Audino. I've edited it accordingly to the current times and still think it's holding true.

Mega Audino: D Rank ---> C- Rank
Alright, I know Mega Audino is really not viewed as a good Pokemon and some people would even like it unranked, but I really don't think they're giving it enough credit. I began testing it because I felt that it was underappreciated and so I began testing a variation of alexwolf's team and it fits nicely as a Trick Room setter. Though, I really enjoy bulky wall sets. I've come up with this:

Audino @ Audinite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 188 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Wish
- Protect / Fire Blast
- Dazzling Gleam / Hyper Voice

Basically, this set is a worse Clefable with the added benefit of not being impacted by Knock Off, having higher bulk than Clefable, and being unique before it mega evolves. This is another thing I'd like to bring up, Audino doesn't necessarily have to evolve right away. It can use Wish to pivot into something else and abuse Regenerator, then mega evolve when the need arises. The EVs are a bit adjustable, but this gives it an extremely low chance of being 2HKOed by Mega Gallade's Close Combat, allows it to better take on Landorus-T's invested Earthquakes, makes Latios' Psyshocks a bit better to stomach, gives it a ~20% chance to be 2HKOed by Talonflame's Brave Bird, and so on. The reason one would choose to use it over Clefable is that Mega Audino actually fully walls Landorus, being 3HKOed by its Earth Power. Audino can take hits from Scarf Heatran, Mega Scizor, Thundurus, Mega Venusaur, and Latios, better than Clefable can. No, it can't wall these Pokemon, but it stands a better chance against them than Clefable can ever hope for. The loss of Leftovers is truly a big hit, I'll give Clefable that. Both have a large case of 4MSS; Mega Audino especially wants to run all of Thunder Wave / Wish / Protect / Dazzling Gleam / Heal Bell / Fire Blast, but it just can't. I ran a bunch of calcs to demonstrate its bulkiness and wrote a brief sentence about every Pokemon in S and A+ Rank and how they fare against Mega Audino and Clefable, for comparison:


Mega Charizard X gives both a lot of trouble, however, Mega Audino is able to live a Flare Blitz from Mega Charizard X at +1 which Clefable can also do while running Unaware, but that's a different story. It's a shaky check at this point, but it leaves it room to Thunder Wave it, effectively crippling it. Neither truly fare well against it, but Mega Audino at least has a higher chance than Clefable of pulling off a Thunder Wave. Otherwise, both should not be used to wall Mega Charizard X.


Greninja is a monster lol, its Gunk Shot KOes Clefable from full health; however, Mega Audino will NEVER be OHKOed by Gunk Shot, not even when fully invested. It's interesting to note that Greninja can not 2HKO either with Hydro Pump, so that's something they share in common. Both suffer when fighting Greninja, but Mega Audino is once again able to pull off a Thunder Wave whereas Clefable has no hope of being able to. It's also interesting to note that Greninja has a 50% chance to KO Mega Audino should switch into a Hydro Pump then stomach a Gunk Shot, whereas Clefable is completely destroyed if it attempts to do this. There's also the fact that Greninja has to rely on both moves having 80% accuracy, so a miss could be beneficial to both of these Pokemon and could potentially change the outcome.

but this is suspect so^


This is one Pokemon I was excited to discuss. Keldeo, with Choice Specs Hydro Pump, can not 2HKO Mega Audino without Stealth Rock. Its damage output is 41.9 - 49.7%, just barely missing the cutoff. Even with Stealth Rock, Mega Audino has a chance to live it anyways. Secret Sword will always be doing less damage, but it will never 2HKO even with Stealth Rock. Clefable, on the other hand, is always 2HKOed by Hydro Pump no matter what. This is one crucial Pokemon Mega Audino checks that Clefable is not able to! The one thing is Scald, which no Pokemon particularly enjoys, but Mega Audino does risk the burn chance by switching directly into Scald. It is important to note, though, that Mega Audino can stall it out with Wish and can paralyze it with Thunder Wave, even when burned, thus not losing its ability to check Keldeo. All other sets than Choice Specs flat out lose to Mega Audino.


Latios is effortlessly walled by Mega Audino, which has a tiny chance to avoid the 3HKO even! Clefable, on the other hand, is 2HKOed by Psyshock with the slightest bit of prior damage. Or, should it switch in, it is then left utterly crippled for anything else due to it taking two rounds of Psyshock. Both are fantastic checks, though, but Mega Audino edges out Clefable here by being a 100% solid counter to it.


Azumarill is walled by Mega Audino when not running Choice Band, while Clefable has a possibility to be 2HKOed by Play Rough. Both are absolutely shredded apart by Choice Band Play Rough, however; but what's not honestly? Overall, Mega Audino is a much more solid check to Azumarill then Clefable could ever hope to be.


Mega Audino actually fares a whole lot better than Clefable against Bisharp, as surprising as that may sound! Clefable is absolutely decimated by Iron Head, as it OHKOes nearly all of the time. Mega Audino, on the other hand, is much better suited. It can switch into a Knock Off and then mega evolve, or it can even pivot into Iron Head pre-mega evolution, then abuse Regenerator. This is a wonderful perk it has over Clefable although neither are fantastic against it because it's Bisharp ya know.


Mega Charizard Y is ferocious, neither can truly stand up to them. Mega Audino does fare a lot better, though, because it can live Fire Blast with some room and Thunder Wave it. Though, neither should directly take it on because neither can stomach its hits. Then again, not much can actually live Mega Charizard Y's hits, so I wouldn't hold this against either.


Clefable actually has the edge versus Clefable for its ability to utilize Unaware sets to break through other Magic Guard sets. Mega Audino really can't do much versus Clefable, so giving the win to Clefable here. Clefable versus Clefable is generally not even that great of a matchup, as they just wall each other, but Mega Audino especially sucks against it.


Mega Audino and Clefable both have the capacity to wall Mega Gallade. Both can paralyze and both do a lot with their Fairy-type STAB moves, especially after a Close Combat drop. It's very important to note that pre-mega Audino is a horrible matchup and will almost always get destroyed by its Close Combat, thus making it not always a safe switch in. So, Clefable would edge it out in this regard.


Garchomp loses to both, plain n simple. It can't break through Clefable unless running Life Orb, so that's something I guess, but both wall it really well and threaten it in return with their respective Fairy-type STAB moves. Clefable's Moonblast is much more likely to overcome Garchomp, though, as Mega Audino's Dazzling Gleam is only a 3HKO against standard Garchomp.


Mega Gardevoir can break through Clefable with Hyper Voice, Audino, however, is never 2HKOed by Hyper Voice, not even after Stealth Rock. This is quite an interesting perk that Mega Audino has over Clefable. Mega Gardevoir hates Thunder Wave, though Substitute variants fare very well against both. Though, if Mega Audino is running Hyper Voice, it can wear down Mega Gardevoir. It's an //ok// matchup against both, really.


Mega Audino is immune to Shadow Ball, whereas Clefable is not. Gengar hates Thunder Wave, though its Stallbreaker set is quite ugly for both Mega Audino and Clefable. Plus, any Gengar running Sludge Bomb threatens both of them, so Gengar will usually beat both Clefable and Mega Audino in these cases. Unless Mega Audino has not mega evolved, then it stands a chance, though.


Heatran indefinitely walls both, especially SubToxic, though Mega Audino can actually stomach a Flash Cannon from Scarf Heatran whereas Clefable is 2HKOed right away. At this point, Mega Audino can paralyze it via Thunder Wave. Neither particularly enjoy burns from Lava Plume on defensive sets, and must be careful to avoid these, but other than that both fare quite well in a wall versus wall situation against defensively-oriented sets.


Invested Earthquake can beat Clefable, but not Mega Audino. Both beat Landorus-T in general, though, so it's not really that much of a comparison. It's important to note that with prediction, Superpower can smack pre-mega Audino and thus KO it before it has a chance to mega evolve. Though, after mega evolving, Superpwoer will not do anywhere near as much damage and can then be Wish stalled.


Landorus deserves a special mention because Mega Audino is 3HKOed by Earth Power, whereas Clefable is 2HKOed by it, making Mega Audino the far better check. In return, though, neither can do that much but Mega Audino still is fat enough to wall it so it wins here. This is very helpful for stall teams, although they have easier times nowawadys, but an additional counter is always appreciated!


Latias is basically a worse Latios in this situation, being even weaker than Latios with its own Psyshock. Roost is helpful here and Latias can stomach both Fairy-type STAB moves, but absolutely hates Thunder Wave. Mega Latias with Substitute does ultimately win, however, as Calm Mind to boost and allow it to stomach Fairy-type moves, and Substitute to block Thunder Wave, eventually will overcome Mega Audino and Clefable both.


Mega Metagross ;_;. Beats both quite easily with its insanely strong Meteor Mash, the only hope both of them have is to catch it on the switch with Thunder Wave, which no good player will do. Meteor Mash misses come in handy in this matchup, but one should never rely on this. The one exception is pre-mega Audino, which has ~50% chance to be 2HKOed by Meteor Mash, but it's still shaky.


Mew is just irritating with its stallbreaker set, can't do much in return but Will-O-Wisp. Though, Clefable doesn't enjoy Knock Off, while Mega Audino doesn't mind one bit. Will-O-Wisp in general is bothersome, along with Taunt, so Mew can ultimately overcome them both in the end; neither of their STAB moves are going to break through Mew anytime soon. Plus, Will-O-Wisp doesn't even bother Clefable; neither ultimately win still, however.


Mega Pinsir has a 67.2% to 2HKO Mega Audino and a 100% chance to 2HKO Clefable, meaning Mega Audino is more likely to be able to paralyze Mega Pinsir via Thunder Wave. Both are decimated by +2 Return, though, but then again, what's not? Mega Audino does have a ~50% chance to be KOed by Return at +2, so a lucky roll can allow it to pull off a Thunder Wave, this should never be relied on though.


Mega Scizor always 2HKOes Clefable, Mega Audino is likely to live the Bullet Punch. Though, neither particularly enjoy it. Fire Blast from both parties can do wonderful versus switch ins, but it's generally not safe due to the risk of Swords Dance. Should a Swords Dance be pulled off, then your team will be in trouble, so Thunder Waving on this turn can be beneficial to make sure Mega Scizor will not receive a free turn to do as it pleases.


Talonflame has a 21.5% chance to 2HKO Mega Audino, Clefable is always 2HKOed; thus making Mega Audino the much better check. This is really relevant because Mega Audino can use Wish stall to overcome Talonflame eventually and actually does quite a bit with Hyper Voice, 2HKOing it after a tiny bit of recoil, Clefable fails to do this.


Thundurus will usually 4HKO Mega Audino and 3HKO Clefable, so both are good checks, though Mega Audino definitely edges out Clefable right here because it can use Wish stalling much more effectively. Mega Audino does a ton better against Nasty Plot Thundurus though, as Clefable is KOed with just a tiny bit of prior damage, though from my experience Nasty Plot isn't as common as it was.


Mega Venusaur beats both via Sludge Bomb, but Mega Audino actually has a slight chance to survive it. However, Mega Venusaur hates regular Audino which walls it to hell and back, and Thunder Wave coming from both. This is where pre-mega Audino really shines, as Sludge Bomb isn't even a guaranteed 3HKO. The risk of poison is apparent, but it's basically just hope not for it. Defensively oriented sets don't fare as well, but will eventually overcome both Clefable and Mega Audino eventually.


Now I know a long ass list of Pokemon with calcs doesn't prove much, but it's to show just how similar Clefable and Mega Audino is and to show how much bulkier Mega Audino is in comparison to Clefable. Mega Audino's biggest competition is Clefable, as Clefable can wield Leftovers, has two great abilities, checks the same stuff, and doesn't take up a mega slot. Mega Audino has perks, though, but ultimately it comes down to "why am I not using Clefable?" Yes, it's outclassed for the most part, but its fantastic bulk, typing, and uniqueness has to be taken into account for. Let's look at out D Rank, and can we really group Mega Audino with Venomoth? Which has one niche? Mega Audino deserves to be on the lines of Lanturn, Mega Aggron, and Slowking, all Pokemon that are outclassed by a higher ranked Pokemon but have their carved niches which allow them to have potential. Really, it doesn't belong in D Rank, nor does it belong to be deranked; people are not giving it enough credit as it deserves. For these reasons, I believe that Mega Audino deserves to raise to C- Rank.
I only got one small issue with this and that is of walling Lando-I. Sure it can absorb its E-powers, but last I checked a few did run Sludge Wave no?

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Audino: 208-247 (50.7 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Course again, I haven't done much with Lando in awhile so don't know if they still bother with Sludge but its a concern still with that thing. Still think it could move up to C- though.
 
I always feel like Conkeldurr is trying to do too much. It is okay, but it really is not that amazing either. I do not care about its placement either, but I feel that nobody is really going to let Conk do these things except from using Knock Off and luring in Lando-T with Ice Punch. While Mega Saur declining in usage is good for it, Conk still really is not that strong, and I do not think making it rise is currently warranted in this metagame. Feel free to disagree and rebuke me though.
while its moves are kinda low in base power, conkeldurr has a hella strong 140 base attack stat to compensate for it. and while its not the most desirable fighting type around nowadays, what with competition from its fellow fighting types, it does have a significant niche in being able to absorb status, check most greninja(lacking extrasensory), mega lopunny, keldeo, thundurus, bisharp, and a lot other top tier threats. while it may not be the best mon, i support that conk should rise to b
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
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Don't know if this is enough to get it removed from the list, but Haunter did lock the Flygon thread a couple days ago saying it was unviable.
 
Don't know if this is enough to get it removed from the list, but Haunter did lock the Flygon thread a couple days ago saying it was unviable.
To be fair, that guy was promoting a revenge killer set that was almost completely outclassed by Garchomp, and I don't think Flygon needs its own thread just for its defog set.
 
If a non mega pokemon completely outclasses a mega pokemon, then the mega should not be ranked. That my opinion. This seems to be a clear case regarding mega audino, there is never situation where I would look at team preview and be happy I had a mega audino over clefable and a viable mega. period. I feel bad that I have nothing else to say but having mega audino be ranked is a joke to me.
 
If a non mega pokemon completely outclasses a mega pokemon, then the mega should not be ranked. That my opinion. This seems to be a clear case regarding mega audino, there is never situation where I would look at team preview and be happy I had a mega audino over clefable and a viable mega. period. I feel bad that I have nothing else to say but having mega audino be ranked is a joke to me.
The reason you use it is for all-around better bulk, better typing in most cases, and pre-Mega Evolution. Why would we not rank anything if something else does outclass it but has an arguable niche? Think about it, if we did this then it would just be A-, A, and A+ Rank, nothing below. Of course it is outclassed, but is Mega Audino really in the same rank as Venomoth and Cofagrigus? Mega Audino has a specific niche, and it is not worthy of being unranked.
 
I said this earlier, but I think that Mega-Ampharos should move up to B- rank. It has a great Special Attack stat (165), which is supplemented by great STABs and good coverage. Electric/Dragon typing is not only great offensively, but is great defensively. It checks and counters most birdspam, while having lovely resistances to water, fire and electric. The best set is probably Agility+3 attacks. It outspeeds many common pokemon, notably falling a point higher than Greninja if it stays in OU.

252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 306-362 (101.3 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Cleanly OHKOs Latios, and outspeeds after a boost.
252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 211-250 (70.5 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Thundurus can only 2HKO in return, and Ampharos outspeeds after a boost. If Rocks are up Ampharos OHKOs 68% of the time.
252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 422-500 (104.4 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Another easy OHKO.
252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 836-988 (307.3 - 363.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO. While it does have to rely on Focus Blast, it still easily KOs with Bisharp not even being able to OHKO in return even at +2.
252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 380-450 (127.9 - 151.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO. A bit shakier, since Charizard outspeeds and OHKOs at +1, but it can't win if Ampharos boosted first.
252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 223-264 (85.4 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO. Seeing as Gengar only 2HKOs even with 252 EVs and LO, so Ampharos wins.
252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Heatran: 272-320 (70.4 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Heatran only 2HKOs with Earth Power anyway, so Ampharos wins again.
252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 476-564 (132.2 - 156.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO. This is with Talonflame running a defensive spread, and is still OHKOd. Even Banded Talonflame can only 3HKO at best, so Ampharos.
This said, though, Ampharos can be walled out by stuff like Mega-Altaria, Landorus-T and Mega-Metagross. While Ampharos can replace Focus Blast with HP Ice to fare better against the former two, it has 4MSS and really needs them both. Despite this, it can still beat a lot of balanced teams and some stall and offensive teams, and has an important niche in beating birdspam. At the very least, it's much better than Mega-Camerupt.
 

AM

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I said this earlier, but I think that Mega-Ampharos should move up to B- rank. It has a great Special Attack stat (165), which is supplemented by great STABs and good coverage. Electric/Dragon typing is not only great offensively, but is great defensively. It checks and counters most birdspam, while having lovely resistances to water, fire and electric. The best set is probably Agility+3 attacks. It outspeeds many common pokemon, notably falling a point higher than Greninja if it stays in OU.

252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 306-362 (101.3 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Cleanly OHKOs Latios, and outspeeds after a boost.
252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 211-250 (70.5 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Thundurus can only 2HKO in return, and Ampharos outspeeds after a boost. If Rocks are up Ampharos OHKOs 68% of the time.
252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 422-500 (104.4 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Another easy OHKO.
252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 836-988 (307.3 - 363.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO. While it does have to rely on Focus Blast, it still easily KOs with Bisharp not even being able to OHKO in return even at +2.
252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 380-450 (127.9 - 151.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO. A bit shakier, since Charizard outspeeds and OHKOs at +1, but it can't win if Ampharos boosted first.
252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 223-264 (85.4 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO. Seeing as Gengar only 2HKOs even with 252 EVs and LO, so Ampharos wins.
252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Heatran: 272-320 (70.4 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Heatran only 2HKOs with Earth Power anyway, so Ampharos wins again.
252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 476-564 (132.2 - 156.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO. This is with Talonflame running a defensive spread, and is still OHKOd. Even Banded Talonflame can only 3HKO at best, so Ampharos.
This said, though, Ampharos can be walled out by stuff like Mega-Altaria, Landorus-T and Mega-Metagross. While Ampharos can replace Focus Blast with HP Ice to fare better against the former two, it has 4MSS and really needs them both. Despite this, it can still beat a lot of balanced teams and some stall and offensive teams, and has an important niche in beating birdspam. At the very least, it's much better than Mega-Camerupt.
I mean this is cool and all in theory but I'm pretty sure I could fluff up a bunch for a mon I wanted to raise and be like look it hits this, this, and that hard. Hitting a mon like Talonflame for super effective damage and KO'ing them is not really that impressive in regards to M-Ampharos. Sure it has this great defensive typing that can work well in practice but it needs a hefty amount of support to really capitalize on its offensive traits. It's really not that fantastic in practice to justify a move up to B- personally.
 

Clone

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I want to post on something since I'm back from vacation so I'll make a nomination of Conkeldurr for B.

Conk has only gotten better with the transition to ORAS. Fairy types took a hit with the introduction of Mega Metagross, while other hard stops like Talonflame and Mega Pinsir have fallen in usage. On top of this, Conk has all the right tools to make a nice home on balance and bulky offense teams as a stop to Greninja, which is arguably the best Pokémon in the metagame right now. This last part is important because Greninja matches up really well against many balance / bulky offense builds, which applies massive pressure on the non Greninja player. However, when Conk is on a balanced team, a lot of pressure is relieved, as Conk fears nothing from the standard Gunk Shot / Low Kick / Ice Beam / Dark Pulse set. Extrasensory is a problem, but that move only works on lure sets so I'll ignore it for now.

Aside from handling Greninja quite well, conk fares relatively decently against many offense and balance builds, as he beats mons like Bisharp, Tyranitar, Rotom-W, Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Thundurus, to name a few. All of these are from the S and A ranks, which just goes to show how good conk actually is. His bulk is nothing short of stellar, as very few things can actually OHKO him, and of those that can, they are all STAB SE Physical attacks from mons that have defined checks and counters such as Clefable for Latios, or Rotom-W for Azumarill. On top of this, access to priority Mach Punch is extremely clutch in many situations and should never be overlooked, especially if Guts, one of the best abilities for a mon like conk, has been activated.

Now, I realize that conk suffers from a few flaws, such as a relatively weak STAB in Drain a punch and terrible speed tier, but neither of those things should stop him from moving up a rank. His low speed does force him to take hits before he can attack, yes, but Drain Punch is conks main STAB move and it provides him with semi-reliable recovery. On top of this, access to moves such as Knock Off, Poison Jab, and the elemental Punches can help conk cover his weaknesses to certain checks. For example, with a little bit of speed investment, Conk can beat Azumarill 1v1 if running Poison Jab. This also applies to x mon when running x move in x situation.

Conk has definitely fallen from Grace since the early days of XY, but that hasn't stopped the clown-nosed fighting type from holding onto his spot in OU as the best bulky fighting type in the game. The niche he holds in the current meta is more than enough to warrant a raise to B and I support it wholeheartedly. B rank fits him perfectly as it's for mons that have definable niches but don't fit on every team, and that description fits Conkeldurr to a T.

Conkeldurr for B
 
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