Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[LoDart210]

Can we all just agree to not talk about Jolteon. It's blacklisted and people are still discussing it.
Anyway:

Tangrowth moves from C+ to B-

Tangrowth checks lots of threats, as previously implied. It has great support moves, such as knock off, sleep powder, and leech seed. It's a big pain to take down with regenerator, and walls landerus and can rock slide Talonflame on a switch. Here is how it performs threats:

Mega Metagross
Tangrowth tanks any hit at full health and can put it to sleep. If some is already asleep, tangrowth can not do much.

Mega Sableye
Tangrowth is set up fodder :(

Latios
Assult vest Tangrowth survives draco and can out to sleep or knock off. Leftovers tangrowth needs tons of special Defense investment to check, forcing it to sacrifice it's physical bulk. Tangrowth can not switch in either. Latios's favor. Slighly

Mega Gyarados
Tangrowth walls mega Gyarados!!! It needs to get multiple boosts to kill tangrowth, as a +2 crunch fails to kill. If not taunted, tangrowth can sleep powder (assuming noting else is asleep) or Giga drain for a two hit ko. Solid check.

Thunderus Incarnate
Without hidden power ice/flying, tangrowth checks. Assult vest checks hidden power ice variats. Hidden power flying is problematic for tangrowth, but tangrowth is no helpless. It can rock slide or knock off for good damage, put to sleep or leech seed, the latter two for non assult vest variants. The matchup is dependent on the set.

Landerus Therian
Tangrowth pretty much counters it. U-turn is weak, and while loosing it's item it bad, tangrowth can still easily beat landerus. It can giga drain for good damage, knock off it's item, put to sleep, leech seed and Landerus is completely helpless. Tangrowth wins.

Greninja
R.I.P tangrowth, though if it's assult, it can take an ice beam....

As you can see, tangrowth can go head to head with some of the top threats of the metagame. I think this is enough to warrant a appropriate ranking of B-.
Other stuff I support:
Weavile moves from B- to B(no longer B+)
Staraptor stays where it is
Lucario moves from B- to C+/C or even C-
Sableye moves from C+ to C
Infernape falls from C+ to C
Goodra falls from C+ to C
Magneton moves from C+ to B-
Stuff I am still thinking about
Mega Camuruptt from C+ to C?
Cobalion from C+ to B-?

Assault vest tangrowth is just one of those things that does reliably well but is never taken seriously.

I've been talking about this guy since early/mid XY and alexwolf came up with the fantastic assault vest thread a while ago but it hasn't gained any traction.

Good to see others noticing it. It is a very good tank that has a good movepool and attacking stats that work well without investment.

Should you go full defensive it's support movepool makes up for nit being able to tank special hits anymore.

Great movepool, good stats, fantastic ability held back by its subpar typing (arguably) are the reasons to consider tangrowth.

 

[Alfalfa]

Greninja is extremely frail too, yet it's being suspected. Tbh Weavile's rock weakness does not hinder it as much as you think, unless you try to play it as a pseudo-Greninja (but hey what serious team doesn't carry defog or rapid spin?). A 100% Weavile has barely more survivability than one at 76%. Its other weaknesses don't really matter either (bar maybe bug) due to its already paperthin defenses. Bisharp and Tyranitar both fail to outspeed Lati@s unless T-tar uses Scarf (which can become setup fodder). Also Weavile was already a shaky check to MegaMence since Ice Shard didn't always OHKO and bulkier variants could shit on it.

But what made me lol was the bolded part. One, Lopunny, Beedrill and Sceptile all face huge opportunity cost, due to them taking up a mega slot. Beedrill is forced to run Protect due to its shit defenses and speed. Two, Beedrill and especially Sceptile can be easily revenge killed by Weavile when they are at about 60%. And three, Weavile has much better coverage than all three. Between Knock Off, Low Kick, Icicle Crash and Poison Jab, Weavile can act as a Greninja wannabe, except with a SR weakness and a much less powerful Poison-type move (but in return, it gets a much stronger Ice-type attack and freaking Knock Off). As for scarfed mons, being locked into one attack isn't always helpful, since you could be turned into setup fodder. Sure, you can outspeed stuff such as Mega Manectric, but you need to be able to KO it as well.

Weavile should definitely rise to B at least, maybe B+ or even A- if Greninja gets the boot

I think you are overestimating Weavile's capabilities. While rising to B is indeed a possibility, and Weavile is indeed better than it was in XY, I think A- is pushing it way too far. Weavile is still easily stopped by a lot of common threats, such as Keldeo, Rotom-W, Talonflame, etc. I am not saying that Weavile is bad, I am saying that you are overestimating Weavile's capabilities in OU. B is possible, as well as B+, but A- is pushing it way too far.

While Lopunny, Beedrill, and Sceptile all face opportunity cost due to taking up a Mega Slot, the same thing could be said about Mega Gengar, Mega Kangaskhan, or Mega Salamence, yet they were banned from OU due to how broken they were. For a Pokemon like Mega Blastoise, taking up a Mega Slot really hurts it, yet for a Pokemon like Zard X, taking up a Mega Slot is unfortunate, but can be worked around.

 

[theV8man]

lol scald
So I've been using Toxicroak for the past few days, and it's actually been proving itself to be a pretty solid OU Pokemon. It should go from C+ to B- because:​

• It checks a good handful of very threatening OU mons like Bisharp, Gyarados-Mega, Keldeo, Azumarill, and nearly all other relevant Fairies (and most greninja lol). It is extremely valuable for offense to have something that checks all of these dangerous pokes in just one team slot. It can basically check most Fighting, Dark, and Fairy Pokemon. An amazing team player for offense.
• Because of its great ability, it counters Pokemon like Suicune and Alomomola that rely on water moves for damage.
• Due to it being so anti-meta, with SD and LO it can do crazy damage to many teams. Only the bulkiest of Pokemon can take a neutral 2+ Gunk Shot and survive.
• Provides priority for the team. After setting up, it KO's Mega Metagross after SR with Sucker Punch.
• Doesn't get worn down as easily because of Drain Punch.
• Can run interesting coverage options like Knock Off, Ice Punch, Earthquake, Stone Edge, even Bullet Punch to take on Mega-Diancie (not advisable), and has some utility options like Taunt/Thunder Wave/Fake Out. With its crazy amount of coverage options, it's pretty much impossible to pin down something that perfectly counters it. Even Skarmory is 2HKO's by a Sub-Punch (or NP lol) set.

Toxicroak does have its problems, however. It is very frail, and doesn't like directly switching into the stuff it checks. It is also on the slow side. This isn't a huge problem because it can still check what it wants to with 85 speed and Sucker Punch. Also, Gunk Shot's 80% accuracy, while I personally haven't missed any important ones, is potentially annoying. Finally, even though it has a plethora of coverage/utility options, it cannot cover everything in 4 moves. The moveset that has been working best for me is:

Toxicroak (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance

I unfortunately don't have any replays saved, but Toxicroak manages to do something against nearly every matchup because the Pokemon it checks are so damn common, and in some cases it nets multiple kills. At first I had doubts about putting the frog on my team, but it puts in more work than its way-more-viable teammates again and again. I am a believer in Toxicroak, and you should be too.

TL;DR: Tired of making offense teams that are wrecked by Azumarill, Keldeo, Bisharp, Clefable, and more? Toxicroak's got it covered.

 

[Force Majeure]

Toxicroak ... should go from C+ to B- because:​

• [sic] reasons
• utility options like Taunt/Thunder Wave/Fake Out. With its crazy amount of coverage options, it's pretty much impossible to pin down something that perfectly counters it. Even Skarmory is 2HKO's by a Sub-Punch (or NP lol) set.

This isn't a huge problem because it can still check what it wants to with 85 speed and Sucker Punch.

Toxicroak (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance

TL;DR: Tired of making offense teams that are wrecked by Azumarill, Keldeo, Bisharp, Clefable, and more? Toxicroak's got it covered.

Great post, and I agree. I'll add that Toxicroak is great on rain teams and against rain teams. Even though its bulk is not good, it has a unique defensive typing. It's also a fighting-type that isn't weak to Fairies, and can even annihilate fairies with STAB Gunk Shot. It has a theoretically-crippling weakness to Psychic, but very, very few non-Psychic-types use Psychic attacks as coverage, especially now that M-Venu is less common. 85 speed isn't great, but it isn't the worst, either; T-Croak can beat the 80 speed pokes and outspeeds Bisharp. Granted, it is somewhat outclassed by Bisharp, but unlike Bisharp it isn't threatened by Scald burns from Alomomola or Keldeo; it can set up on most Water-types, including Manaphy lacking Psychic. Also, unlike Bisharp, it resists Fighting rather than being 4x weak to it; this allows a team builder to pair Toxicroak with Fighting-weak threats like T-Tar or Heatran (although there's still a shared Ground weakness....)

It may not be the best, but T-Croak provides great utility for a team that needs it. Toxicroak to B-

 

[Prinz]

Greninja is extremely frail too, yet it's being suspected. Tbh Weavile's rock weakness does not hinder it as much as you think, unless you try to play it as a pseudo-Greninja (but hey what serious team doesn't carry defog or rapid spin?). A 100% Weavile has barely more survivability than one at 76%. Its other weaknesses don't really matter either (bar maybe bug) due to its already paperthin defenses. Bisharp and Tyranitar both fail to outspeed Lati@s unless T-tar uses Scarf (which can become setup fodder). Also Weavile was already a shaky check to MegaMence since Ice Shard didn't always OHKO and bulkier variants could shit on it.

But what made me lol was the bolded part. One, Lopunny, Beedrill and Sceptile all face huge opportunity cost, due to them taking up a mega slot. Beedrill is forced to run Protect due to its shit defenses and speed. Two, Beedrill and especially Sceptile can be easily revenge killed by Weavile when they are at about 60%. And three, Weavile has much better coverage than all three. Between Knock Off, Low Kick, Icicle Crash and Poison Jab, Weavile can act as a Greninja wannabe, except with a SR weakness and a much less powerful Poison-type move (but in return, it gets a much stronger Ice-type attack and freaking Knock Off). As for scarfed mons, being locked into one attack isn't always helpful, since you could be turned into setup fodder. Sure, you can outspeed stuff such as Mega Manectric, but you need to be able to KO it as well.

Weavile should definitely rise to B at least, maybe B+ or even A- if Greninja gets the boot

Don't compare Greninja to Weavile please. Greninja has STAB on every move it uses thanks to Protean and therefore it hits much stronger than Weavile can. In addition, it has a massive moverpool that Weavile dreams to have that allows Greninja to bypass the major part of its checks, they are just different mons, and the fact that they are both extremely fast and frail doesn't mean they are mons on the same level. Regarding the comparison with Bisharp and Tyranitar, they are just much better than Weavile lol because they are much reliable than Weavile and I don't see how they lose to the Lati Twins tbh since even EQ / HP Fire fails to OHKO Bisharp and they aren't too much common anyway. In addition, Weavile doesn't 100% beat Lati Twins as well, since if they don't switch out and you use Pursuit, they can tank the hit and they OHKO back Weavile.

In the Salamence era it was a bit better than now I guess, I know it failed to know bulkier Salamences but it was one of the few mons that could revenge-kill it once it was a bit already weakened, but that doesnt matter much since Salamence is banned.

Also I know that using Lopunny, Beedrill and Sceptile takes up your mega slot (even if regarding Lopunny I wouldn't call it a waste since it's probably a top3 mega as of now), but it was just to make an example that in the current metagame there are mons that are faster than Weavile even without using Choice Scarf / boosting their speed in any way, so there are mons that can act as revenge-killer like Weavile can do.

I agree that Weavile has its niches, but it isn't as good as some people describes it imo. I wouldn't put it above B rank tbh.

PS: if Greninja gets banned, how Weavile will get better? most likely it will get worse since as of now it's one of the few mons that can outspeed and revenge-kill Greninja and thats a good niche.

 

[blinkie]

Greninja is extremely frail too, yet it's being suspected. Tbh Weavile's rock weakness does not hinder it as much as you think, unless you try to play it as a pseudo-Greninja (but hey what serious team doesn't carry defog or rapid spin?). A 100% Weavile has barely more survivability than one at 76%. Its other weaknesses don't really matter either (bar maybe bug) due to its already paperthin defenses. Bisharp and Tyranitar both fail to outspeed Lati@s unless T-tar uses Scarf (which can become setup fodder). Also Weavile was already a shaky check to MegaMence since Ice Shard didn't always OHKO and bulkier variants could shit on it.

But what made me lol was the bolded part. One, Lopunny, Beedrill and Sceptile all face huge opportunity cost, due to them taking up a mega slot. Beedrill is forced to run Protect due to its shit defenses and speed. Two, Beedrill and especially Sceptile can be easily revenge killed by Weavile when they are at about 60%. And three, Weavile has much better coverage than all three. Between Knock Off, Low Kick, Icicle Crash and Poison Jab, Weavile can act as a Greninja wannabe, except with a SR weakness and a much less powerful Poison-type move (but in return, it gets a much stronger Ice-type attack and freaking Knock Off). As for scarfed mons, being locked into one attack isn't always helpful, since you could be turned into setup fodder. Sure, you can outspeed stuff such as Mega Manectric, but you need to be able to KO it as well.

Weavile should definitely rise to B at least, maybe B+ or even A- if Greninja gets the boot

Greninja and Weavile are completely different mons. Weavile wishes it had a move like Gunk Shot and it also simply doesn't have the coverage Greninja has. Greninja also gets STAB behind every single move thanks to an actually useful ability, making it hit way harder. And rocks do hinder it, as these calcs show:
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 161-192 (57.2 - 68.3%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 163-193 (58 - 68.6%)
^good chance to die after rocks + 1 lo round, and guaranteed after 2 lo rounds.
252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 195-231 (69.3 - 82.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
^jolly Talonflame, Adamant is guaranteed with rocks, although none OHKO at 100%
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 201-237 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So yeah SR does make a difference. Yeah sure every team runs Defog / Spin but its not a good thing that you have to make sure SR is not up for Weavile, because that could mean defogging your own hazards, which is bad for Weavile as well. Plus in general using Defog or spin means killing momentum. Sure Bisharp and TTar both fail to outspeed but ScarfTar is pretty much outclassing Weavile in terms of pursuit trapping Latis. Bisharp also has priority to force mindgames, but each time you bring Weavile in you have to pray he doesn't use Draco. Coverage doesn't really matter for Weavile, because first of all Poison Jab is simply unviable, and secondly all the coverage doesn't matter if you can't OHKO stuff you hit SE not to mention a ton of mons that resist and are hit neutrally. Your last sentence really hit the point and sums up Weavile. It outspeeds a lot, but can't KO the targets it wants to.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 218-257 (57.3 - 67.6%)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 265-312 (67.2 - 79.1%)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 307-367 (71 - 84.9%)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 239-283 (64.2 - 76%)
and speaking of Greninja wannabees lol
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 224-265 (78.3 - 92.6%)

Anyways about setup fodder Weavile could also easily become setup fodder for like stuff that can force it out as well. A ton of stuff can force it out and then start setting up.

 

[pretty little liAr]

http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130913141544/pokemon/images/c/c3/Mega_Garchomp.png

I used to think that mega garchomp was pretty damn bad, and had little ways to justify use over other mega wall breakers. However, after using it, I can see that I was seriously underestimating its wall breaking capabilities and I apologize to all who opposed my previous opinion on the mega sand shark...thing. Mega Garchomp is a very powerful pokemon, and its mixed set can break through skarmory and ferrothorn with fire blast, unlike its non mega counter part. Unfortueny mega garchomp does not have a desirable speed stat, and is out ran by almost every viable dragon/ice type in the tier. Long list:

Kingdra (in rain
Salamence (barley viable though)
Mega Charizard X
Latios
Latias
Mega Latias
Garchomp
Haxorus (once again, barely viable)
Hydreigon
Black Kyreum
Greninja (because of protean)
Weavile
Mega Glalie
Froslass

Despite this, mega chomps excellent bulk means it can actually survive hits from some of these pokemon, and proceed to kill them with a massively powerful earthquake or dragon stab. Mega garchomp also is amazing a breaking down defensive cores, due to its powerful mixed attacking stats and coverage. While the introduction of mega slowbro and sableye make mega garchomps life undeniably more difficult, but its sheer power and wall breaking capabilities make it worth while. Overall, mega garchomp is actually a great pokemon, and deserves to move to B.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Don't compare Greninja to Weavile please. Greninja has STAB on every move it uses thanks to Protean and therefore it hits much stronger than Weavile can. In addition, it has a massive moverpool that Weavile dreams to have that allows Greninja to bypass the major part of its checks, they are just different mons, and the fact that they are both extremely fast and frail doesn't mean they are mons on the same level. Regarding the comparison with Bisharp and Tyranitar, they are just much better than Weavile lol because they are much reliable than Weavile and I don't see how they lose to the Lati Twins tbh since even EQ / HP Fire fails to OHKO Bisharp and they aren't too much common anyway. In addition, Weavile doesn't 100% beat Lati Twins as well, since if they don't switch out and you use Pursuit, they can tank the hit and they OHKO back Weavile.

In the Salamence era it was a bit better than now I guess, I know it failed to know bulkier Salamences but it was one of the few mons that could revenge-kill it once it was a bit already weakened, but that doesnt matter much since Salamence is banned.

Also I know that using Lopunny, Beedrill and Sceptile takes up your mega slot (even if regarding Lopunny I wouldn't call it a waste since it's probably a top3 mega as of now), but it was just to make an example that in the current metagame there are mons that are faster than Weavile even without using Choice Scarf / boosting their speed in any way, so there are mons that can act as revenge-killer like Weavile can do.

I agree that Weavile has its niches, but it isn't as good as some people describes it imo. I wouldn't put it above B rank tbh.

PS: if Greninja gets banned, how Weavile will get better? most likely it will get worse since as of now it's one of the few mons that can outspeed and revenge-kill Greninja and thats a good niche.

idk, i'm comparing weav to greninja since theoretically weavile can run a knock off/icicle crash/low kick/poison jab set, just like greninja's best set is gunk shot/low kick/ice beam/dark pulse. they have the exact same coverage. while weavile has a stronger dark-type (and knock off, no less) and ice-type attack, gren has a much stronger poison-type move in gunk shot (120 + stab) and a slightly stronger low kick, especially if it runs 92 atk EVs. both are very susceptible to priority (aqua jet, bullet/mach punch, brave bird), but weav also has an unfortunate sr weakness, meaning that it needs rapid spin/defog support (if running this set). you're right about the movepool part, but i'd like to mention that you can use aerial ace > poison jab if you really hate keldeo and mega hera, since it 2HKOes both of them.

even then, however, weavile's poison jab, while much weaker than greninja's mighty gunk shot, still has its uses:

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 294-348 (106.1 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 190-224 (48.2 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (clef can't ohko back without SR)

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Poison Jab vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 260-307 (75.3 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (while it doesn't ohko, this move can catch any azu arrogant enough to try and switch into weavile, especially after one or two rounds of SR damage)

meanwhile, if the team running weavile finds itself weak to keldeo and mega hera...

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 177-211 (54.7 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (and considering this thing's a very common switch in to weav...)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Aerial Ace vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 291-343 (93.5 - 110.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

will weavile be on the same level as greninja? no way. but i'm just pointing out that this thing can beat up offense really well if played correctly.

Greninja and Weavile are completely different mons. Weavile wishes it had a move like Gunk Shot and it also simply doesn't have the coverage Greninja has. Greninja also gets STAB behind every single move thanks to an actually useful ability, making it hit way harder. And rocks do hinder it, as these calcs show:
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 161-192 (57.2 - 68.3%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 163-193 (58 - 68.6%)
^good chance to die after rocks + 1 lo round, and guaranteed after 2 lo rounds.
252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 195-231 (69.3 - 82.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
^jolly Talonflame, Adamant is guaranteed with rocks, although none OHKO at 100%
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 201-237 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So yeah SR does make a difference. Yeah sure every team runs Defog / Spin but its not a good thing that you have to make sure SR is not up for Weavile, because that could mean defogging your own hazards, which is bad for Weavile as well. Sure Bisharp and TTar both fail to outspeed but ScarfTar is pretty much outclassing Weavile in terms of pursuit trapping Latis. Bisharp also has priority to force mindgames, but each time you bring Weavile in you have to pray he doesn't use Draco. Coverage doesn't really matter for Weavile, because first of all Poison Jab is simply unviable, and secondly all the coverage doesn't matter if you can't OHKO stuff you hit SE not to mention a ton of mons that resist and are hit neutrally. Your last sentence really hit the point and sums up Weavile. It outspeeds a lot, but can't KO the targets it wants to.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 218-257 (57.3 - 67.6%)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 265-312 (67.2 - 79.1%)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 307-367 (71 - 84.9%)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 239-283 (64.2 - 76%)
and speaking of Greninja wannabees lol
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 224-265 (78.3 - 92.6%)

there's a lot of problems with this post. firstly, while it lacks gunk shot, poison jab is still enough to get the job done against mega gardy and azu (with some prior damage in azu's case). also nice to see that talon calc, most of them run adamant CB, which OHKOes regardless of SR or EVs. espeed still isn't guaranteed to OHKO meaning weav can take it down while sacrificing itself. poison jab unviable? hell no, it's even listed on the analysis page. how does scarftar outclass weavile in terms of pursuit trapping lol... it's not like scarftar likes draco meteor either, especially with SR on its side, and its pursuit fails to OHKO lati@s either, if they decide to stay in!

and btw wtf is slowbro going to do back? hope for a lucky burn? flamethrower (better than fire blast imo) fails to ohko even with SR, and if it tries to abuse regen, weavile can use pursuit. if sleep clause's active, amoonguss completely fails. empoleon once again needs to rely on a lucky burn (flash cannon's very rare), although it can phaze too. as for greninja, i think weavile would rather use knock off if it really needs to, as a non-LO gren becomes waaaay less threatening.

Anyways about setup fodder Weavile could also easily become setup fodder for like stuff that can force it out as well. A ton of stuff can force it out and then start setting up.

i'd like to mention that it's not THAT easy to set up on weav, especially if the wannabe greninja set actually becomes popular. yes some megas can force it out (scizor, intimidate gyara and even then low kick, lopunny, beedrill) as well as some pokes which don't really care about knock off (such as azu and clef), but it's not like scarfed things where if you get locked into the wrong move you get screwed, since not very many things resist ice+dark stab, especially when backed by nasty effects. speaking of nasty effects, i'm surprised nobody mentioned icicle crash's 30% flinch rate, combined with weav's insane 125 speed. yes it's very unreliable, but can come in handy at times. now watch as gamefreak gives it serene grace in gen VII

 

[blinkie]

idk, i'm comparing weav to greninja since theoretically weavile can run a knock off/icicle crash/low kick/poison jab set, just like greninja's best set is gunk shot/low kick/ice beam/dark pulse. they have the exact same coverage. while weavile has a stronger dark-type (and knock off, no less) and ice-type attack, gren has a much stronger poison-type move in gunk shot (120 + stab) and a slightly stronger low kick, especially if it runs 92 atk EVs. both are very susceptible to priority (aqua jet, bullet/mach punch, brave bird), but weav also has an unfortunate sr weakness, meaning that it needs rapid spin/defog support (if running this set). you're right about the movepool part, but i'd like to mention that you can use aerial ace > poison jab if you really hate keldeo and mega hera, since it 2HKOes both of them.

even then, however, weavile's poison jab, while much weaker than greninja's mighty gunk shot, still has its uses:

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 294-348 (106.1 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 190-224 (48.2 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (clef can't ohko back without SR)

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Poison Jab vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 260-307 (75.3 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (while it doesn't ohko, this move can catch any azu arrogant enough to try and switch into weavile, especially after one or two rounds of SR damage)

meanwhile, if the team running weavile finds itself weak to keldeo and mega hera...

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 177-211 (54.7 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (and considering this thing's a very common switch in to weav...)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Aerial Ace vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 291-343 (93.5 - 110.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

will weavile be on the same level as greninja? no way. but i'm just pointing out that this thing can beat up offense really well if played correctly.



there's a lot of problems with this post. firstly, while it lacks gunk shot, poison jab is still enough to get the job done against mega gardy and azu (with some prior damage in azu's case). also nice to see that talon calc, most of them run adamant CB, which OHKOes regardless of SR or EVs. espeed still isn't guaranteed to OHKO meaning weav can take it down while sacrificing itself. poison jab unviable? hell no, it's even listed on the analysis page. how does scarftar outclass weavile in terms of pursuit trapping lol... it's not like scarftar likes draco meteor either, especially with SR on its side, and its pursuit fails to OHKO lati@s either, if they decide to stay in!

and btw wtf is slowbro going to do back? hope for a lucky burn? flamethrower (better than fire blast imo) fails to ohko even with SR, and if it tries to abuse regen, weavile can use pursuit. if sleep clause's active, amoonguss completely fails. empoleon once again needs to rely on a lucky burn (flash cannon's very rare), although it can phaze too. as for greninja, i think weavile would rather use knock off if it really needs to, as a non-LO gren becomes waaaay less threatening.

First of all running STABS / Low Kick / Poison Jab is just bad. Ice Shard is the main reason you actually use Weavile, so you can revenge stuff like Dnite. Ice Shard + Ice Crash + Knock Off is pretty much mandatory. This means you can only run one of Low Kick / Poison Jab / Pursuit SD etc. If you run Poison Jab for stuff like Azu and Clef, you're letting yourself get shut down by Ferro, Bisharp, etc. Aerial Ace is even worse just let someone else on Weavile's team deal with Keldeo and Heracross. Weavile really only has the one moveslot to work with, and ok Poison Jab might be like remotely viable if you want to lure Azu, but just no for Aerial Ace.
And the calcs were just to demonstrate how SR does make a difference. I see just as many SD Talonflames as I see Banded ones anyways.
Ofc Weavile can take down a 4x weak mon...I'm just showing how priority and SR really mess around with Weavile.
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 165-195 (48.3 - 57.1%)
At least it doesn't instantly die...? And plus it doesn't matter if Pursuit doesn't OHKO, because after a Draco Lati@s can't do anything back. However, the only scenario this works for Weavile is if they used Draco and killed a mon previously. BTW there are other mons that TTar can Pursuit trap as well, that it can live hits from...

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 220-259 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Slowbro actually can beat Weavile.
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 99-117 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- 69.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not taking into account possible burn and LO rounds. Weavile can't even safely switch in...
I'm not even going to argue about the rest because I just used the calcs to demonstrate that Weavile really isn't as powerful as you are making it out to be, and even SE hits don't KO stuff.
You can't run Poison Jab / Low Kick / Aerial Ace all at once, you actually have to pick and choose what walls you. And then there are the mons that wall you no matter what...and keep in mind you don't bring the team support of Pursuit trapping if you run any of the above, so Pursuit Weavile is even easier to wall. Weavile isn't that hard to force out with pretty much any scarfer, so you need reliable pivots to sponge hits, and then get Weavile back in again, because Weavile pretty much never will manually switch in on stuff.

but instead of just spamming calcs on the thread, show us some high-quality replays of Weavile carrying its weight in battles, which would be a lot better evidence for getting it moved up in viability rankings.

 

[firehusky]

First of all running STABS / Low Kick / Poison Jab is just bad. Ice Shard is the main reason you actually use Weavile, so you can revenge stuff like Dnite. Ice Shard + Ice Crash + Knock Off is pretty much mandatory. This means you can only run one of Low Kick / Poison Jab / Pursuit SD etc. If you run Poison Jab for stuff like Azu and Clef, you're letting yourself get shut down by Ferro, Bisharp, etc. Aerial Ace is even worse just let someone else on Weavile's team deal with Keldeo and Heracross. Weavile really only has the one moveslot to work with, and ok Poison Jab might be like remotely viable if you want to lure Azu, but just no for Aerial Ace.
And the calcs were just to demonstrate how SR does make a difference. I see just as many SD Talonflames as I see Banded ones anyways.
Ofc Weavile can take down a 4x weak mon...I'm just showing how priority and SR really mess around with Weavile.
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 165-195 (48.3 - 57.1%)
At least it doesn't instantly die...? And plus it doesn't matter if Pursuit doesn't OHKO, because after a Draco Lati@s can't do anything back. However, the only scenario this works for Weavile is if they used Draco and killed a mon previously. BTW there are other mons that TTar can Pursuit trap as well, that it can live hits from...

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 220-259 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Slowbro actually can beat Weavile.
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 99-117 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- 69.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not taking into account possible burn and LO rounds. Weavile can't even safely switch in...
I'm not even going to argue about the rest because I just used the calcs to demonstrate that Weavile really isn't as powerful as you are making it out to be, and even SE hits don't KO stuff.
You can't run Poison Jab / Low Kick / Aerial Ace all at once, you actually have to pick and choose what walls you. And then there are the mons that wall you no matter what...and keep in mind you don't bring the team support of Pursuit trapping if you run any of the above, so Pursuit Weavile is even easier to wall. Weavile isn't that hard to force out with pretty much any scarfer, so you need reliable pivots to sponge hits, and then get Weavile back in again, because Weavile pretty much never will manually switch in on stuff.

but instead of just spamming calcs on the thread, show us some high-quality replays of Weavile carrying its weight in battles, which would be a lot better evidence for getting it moved up in viability rankings.

Just sayin, but gengar almost always runs sludge wave over sludge bomb to avoid being walled by bulletproof chesnaught.
Calc for sludge wave:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 231-274 (82.2 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

First of all running STABS / Low Kick / Poison Jab is just bad. Ice Shard is the main reason you actually use Weavile, so you can revenge stuff like Dnite. Ice Shard + Ice Crash + Knock Off is pretty much mandatory. This means you can only run one of Low Kick / Poison Jab / Pursuit SD etc. If you run Poison Jab for stuff like Azu and Clef, you're letting yourself get shut down by Ferro, Bisharp, etc. Aerial Ace is even worse just let someone else on Weavile's team deal with Keldeo and Heracross. Weavile really only has the one moveslot to work with, and ok Poison Jab might be like remotely viable if you want to lure Azu, but just no for Aerial Ace.
And the calcs were just to demonstrate how SR does make a difference. I see just as many SD Talonflames as I see Banded ones anyways.
Ofc Weavile can take down a 4x weak mon...I'm just showing how priority and SR really mess around with Weavile.
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 165-195 (48.3 - 57.1%)
At least it doesn't instantly die...? And plus it doesn't matter if Pursuit doesn't OHKO, because after a Draco Lati@s can't do anything back. However, the only scenario this works for Weavile is if they used Draco and killed a mon previously.

Slowbro actually can beat Weavile.
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 99-117 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- 69.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not taking into account possible burn and LO rounds. Weavile can't even safely switch in...
I'm not even going to argue about the rest because I just used the calcs to demonstrate that Weavile really isn't as powerful as you are making it out to be, and even SE hits don't KO stuff.
You can't run Poison Jab / Low Kick / Aerial Ace all at once, you actually have to pick and choose what walls you. And then there are the mons that wall you no matter what...and keep in mind you don't bring the team support of Pursuit trapping if you run any of the above, so Pursuit Weavile is even easier to wall. Weavile isn't that hard to force out with pretty much any scarfer, so you need reliable pivots to sponge hits, and then get Weavile back in again, because Weavile pretty much never will manually switch in on stuff.

but instead of just spamming calcs on the thread, show us some high-quality replays of Weavile carrying its weight in battles, which would be a lot better evidence for getting it moved up in viability rankings.

OK so why is that set bad? I don't know if it's bad or not, since I've never actually used it in practice, I'm just theorymonning. Yes, the general consensus is that Ice Shard is Weavile's main function, but if you think it's the only thing Weavile can do in OU, then why don't you use Mamoswine?
Weavile's best set AFAIK is Icicle Crash / Low Kick / Ice Shard / Knock Off. It already loses to Ferro no matter how you look at it (even with Low Kick). Not all teams can afford to use a Pokemon which can check Keldeo, so Aerial Ace might come in handy.
Doesn't SD Talon mainly use Sharp Beak or Life Orb anyway? And if it really wanted to use a Jolly nature, why wouldn't it simply Flare Blitz? "And plus it doesn't matter if Pursuit doesn't OHKO", that only really applies if Latios lacks Earthquake, and even then SR might allow Latios to 2HKO with DM.
Slowbro can only beat Weavile if it gets lucky with the Scald burn. Also Weavile can switch in predicting a Psyshock or a Slack Off...

"You can't run Poison Jab / Low Kick / Aerial Ace all at once, you actually have to pick and choose what walls you."
I'M SORRY BUT WHAT THE FUCK. Greninja can't run Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Low Kick / HP Fire / Grass Knot / Gunk Shot / U-turn and Life Orb / Choice Scarf at the same time. Greninja also needs to choose what walls you. I agree that Weavile isn't hard to force out with a scarfer and it will pretty much never switch in on stuff, but the same thing can be said for Greninja. However, I'm with you on the mons that wall it no matter what. This is basically what would make Weav a worse Greninja.

If anything you're the one who's spamming calcs, your previous post was literally full of them.

 

[theV8man]

OK so why is that set bad? I don't know if it's bad or not, since I've never actually used it in practice, I'm just theorymonning. Yes, the general consensus is that Ice Shard is Weavile's main function, but if you think it's the only thing Weavile can do in OU, then why don't you use Mamoswine?
Weavile's best set AFAIK is Icicle Crash / Low Kick / Ice Shard / Knock Off. It already loses to Ferro no matter how you look at it (even with Low Kick). Not all teams can afford to use a Pokemon which can check Keldeo, so Aerial Ace might come in handy.
Doesn't SD Talon mainly use Sharp Beak or Life Orb anyway? And if it really wanted to use a Jolly nature, why wouldn't it simply Flare Blitz? "And plus it doesn't matter if Pursuit doesn't OHKO", that only really applies if Latios lacks Earthquake, and even then SR might allow Latios to 2HKO with DM.
Slowbro can only beat Weavile if it gets lucky with the Scald burn and Weavile can switch in predicting a Psyshock or a Slack Off...

"You can't run Poison Jab / Low Kick / Aerial Ace all at once, you actually have to pick and choose what walls you."
I'M SORRY BUT WHAT THE FUCK. Greninja can't run Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Low Kick / HP Fire / Grass Knot / Gunk Shot / U-turn and Life Orb / Choice Scarf at the same time. Greninja also needs to choose what walls you. I agree that Weavile isn't hard to force out with a scarfer and it will pretty much never switch in on stuff, but the same thing can be said for Greninja. However, I'm with you on the mons that wall it no matter what. This is basically what would make Weav a worse Greninja.

If anything you're the one who's spamming calcs, your previous post was literally full of them.

One of the main differences is that while Weavile can run a lot of coverage like Greninja, it doesn't give it the ability to check things with its coverage. This is because its coverage moves are simply, unlike Greninja's, not powerful enough. You're not checking Keldeo with Aerial Ace. It does a bit over half damage. This means that Keldeo is the one checking you lol. The same goes for Poison Jab. There's not one Fairy you're OHKO'ing, you can't even reliably 2HKO Clefable, so unlike Greninja you don't have to switch out and possibly take more hazard damage. And the same goes for Low Kick. Basically, Greninja can pretty much OHKO most of the stuff it wants with coverage moves, which is part of the reason that makes it so much more lethal than Weavile. Pair this with the fact that Weavile is weak to hazards, weaker to priority, and less powerful in general, and its easy to see that there is little comparison to be made between the two besides coverage and speed.

 

[blinkie]

OK so why is that set bad? I don't know if it's bad or not, since I've never actually used it in practice, I'm just theorymonning. Yes, the general consensus is that Ice Shard is Weavile's main function, but if you think it's the only thing Weavile can do in OU, then why don't you use Mamoswine?
Weavile's best set AFAIK is Icicle Crash / Low Kick / Ice Shard / Knock Off. It already loses to Ferro no matter how you look at it (even with Low Kick). Not all teams can afford to use a Pokemon which can check Keldeo, so Aerial Ace might come in handy.
Doesn't SD Talon mainly use Sharp Beak or Life Orb anyway? And if it really wanted to use a Jolly nature, why wouldn't it simply Flare Blitz? "And plus it doesn't matter if Pursuit doesn't OHKO", that only really applies if Latios lacks Earthquake, and even then SR might allow Latios to 2HKO with DM.
Slowbro can only beat Weavile if it gets lucky with the Scald burn and Weavile can switch in predicting a Psyshock or a Slack Off...

"You can't run Poison Jab / Low Kick / Aerial Ace all at once, you actually have to pick and choose what walls you."
I'M SORRY BUT WHAT THE FUCK. Greninja can't run Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Low Kick / HP Fire / Grass Knot / Gunk Shot / U-turn and Life Orb / Choice Scarf at the same time. Greninja also needs to choose what walls you. I agree that Weavile isn't hard to force out with a scarfer and it will pretty much never switch in on stuff, but the same thing can be said for Greninja. However, I'm with you on the mons that wall it no matter what. This is basically what would make Weav a worse Greninja.

If anything you're the one who's spamming calcs, your previous post was literally full of them.

I'm not saying Ice Shard is the only thing it can do in OU. I'm just saying without it, you're dead to literally everything faster than you. However, with Ice Shard you can mess up Scarf Landoge, revenge DD users, and pick off weakened scarfers. Low Kick also actually 2HKO's Ferro, so its not a safe-switch in. More importantly, it hits Bisharp, TTar Heatran etc. Most Keldeos are scarfed nowadays, so it won't make a difference, and there are also a lot more reliable Keldeo checks out there anyways. Checking Keldeo just isn't something you should use Weavile for, and anyways it can't switch in safely. And I still don't get why you keep ranting about the Talonflame calc, what if it used Brave Bird on a switch-in? Want me to redo the calc with Sharp Beak? It'll just make it like guaranteed OHKO after SR...
And btw ScarfTar is only 2HKO'd by 2 insanely high rolls + SR from LO Latios. At least I would call it a lot more reliable than Latias. Anyways Earthquake isn't that common anyways, and is never run on Latias.

greninja has to pick and choose its checks but due to a much better movepool there are less reliable answers to it than for Weavile for example Skarm walls you no matter what. There aren't many reliable Greninja answers and even then they can be dealt with by random coverage(Conk/Croak + ESens). Also Greninja can dodge priority sometimes with the help of protean(HP Fire to dodge Bullet Punch, Gunk Shot to dodge Mach Punch) so that gives it a definite advantage over Weavile, which always loses to Mach Punch/Bullet Punch.

Weavile has a definite niche and some strengths, but when you take over half from neutral priority, but still can't OHKO stuff you're SE on, there really is pretty much no way it goes to A-.

EDIT: the guy above me summed it up better than me.

 

[Alfalfa]

OK so why is that set bad? I don't know if it's bad or not, since I've never actually used it in practice, I'm just theorymonning. Yes, the general consensus is that Ice Shard is Weavile's main function, but if you think it's the only thing Weavile can do in OU, then why don't you use Mamoswine?Weavile's best set AFAIK is Icicle Crash / Low Kick / Ice Shard / Knock Off. It already loses to Ferro no matter how you look at it (even with Low Kick). Not all teams can afford to use a Pokemon which can check Keldeo, so Aerial Ace might come in handy.
Doesn't SD Talon mainly use Sharp Beak or Life Orb anyway? And if it really wanted to use a Jolly nature, why wouldn't it simply Flare Blitz? "And plus it doesn't matter if Pursuit doesn't OHKO", that only really applies if Latios lacks Earthquake, and even then SR might allow Latios to 2HKO with DM.
Slowbro can only beat Weavile if it gets lucky with the Scald burn. Also Weavile can switch in predicting a Psyshock or a Slack Off...

"You can't run Poison Jab / Low Kick / Aerial Ace all at once, you actually have to pick and choose what walls you."
I'M SORRY BUT WHAT THE FUCK. Greninja can't run Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Low Kick / HP Fire / Grass Knot / Gunk Shot / U-turn and Life Orb / Choice Scarf at the same time. Greninja also needs to choose what walls you. I agree that Weavile isn't hard to force out with a scarfer and it will pretty much never switch in on stuff, but the same thing can be said for Greninja. However, I'm with you on the mons that wall it no matter what. This is basically what would make Weav a worse Greninja.

If anything you're the one who's spamming calcs, your previous post was literally full of them.

Nobody ever said Ice Shard was the only thing Weavile had going for it in OU. ZZtrollZZ said Ice Shard was one of the main reasons to use it. Also, Weavile and Mamoswine play a lot differently, as one is fast and frail, whereas the other is slower but more meant to using its nearly-unresisted dual STABs to damage the opponent (along with its Stealth Rock set). Please do not compare Poison Jab + Low Kick Weavile to Greninja either, as Greninja is still a lot more threatening with Gunk Shot and Low Kick than Weavile does with Poison Jab and Low Kick. You mentioned Choice Scarf Greninja, but that set is complete garbage regardless of how you look it - it was bad when Mega Mence was around, it is bad now. Greninja's moveslots is simply a matter of what you want to beat, because it is so unpredictable. Weavile does have Aerial Ace, Low Kick, and Poison Jab, but even with those moves, it is nowhere as near as threatening as Greninja. Stop comparing the two, you are only working yourself further into a hole, like you have several times before.

You are saying not all teams can afford to use a Pokemon that can check Keldeo, but if that is the case, then the team probably needs restructuring, as Keldeo is one of the easiest Pokemon to check, despite still being very threatening. Azumarill, Lati@s, Starmie, Slowbro, Mega Venusaur, Tentacruel, and the like are all viable in OU, so it is not like finding a Keldeo check is that difficult. And most of these Pokemon are really good, so saying not all teams can afford to carry a Keldeo check is like saying not all teams can afford to carry a Talonflame check.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

I'm not saying Ice Shard is the only thing it can do in OU. I'm just saying without it, you're dead to literally everything faster than you. However, with Ice Shard you can mess up Scarf Landoge, revenge DD users, and pick off weakened scarfers. Low Kick also actually 2HKO's Ferro, so its not a safe-switch in. More importantly, it hits Bisharp, TTar Heatran etc. Most Keldeos are scarfed nowadays, so it won't make a difference, and there are also a lot more reliable Keldeo checks out there anyways. Checking Keldeo just isn't something you should use Weavile for, and anyways it can't switch in safely. And I still don't get why you keep ranting about the Talonflame calc, what if it used Brave Bird on a switch-in? Want me to redo the calc with Sharp Beak? It'll just make it like guaranteed OHKO after SR...
And btw ScarfTar is only 2HKO'd by 2 insanely high rolls + SR from LO Latios. At least I would call it a lot more reliable than Latias. Anyways Earthquake isn't that common anyways, and is never run on Latias.

greninja has to pick and choose its checks but due to a much better movepool there are less reliable answers to it than for Weavile for example Skarm walls you no matter what. There aren't many reliable Greninja answers and even then they can be dealt with by random coverage(Conk/Croak + ESens). Also Greninja can dodge priority sometimes with the help of protean(HP Fire to dodge Bullet Punch, Gunk Shot to dodge Mach Punch) so that gives it a definite advantage over Weavile, which always loses to Mach Punch/Bullet Punch.

Weavile has a definite niche and some strengths, but when you take over half from neutral priority, but still can't OHKO stuff you're SE on, there really is pretty much no way it goes to A-.

EDIT: the guy above me summed it up better than me.

Ferrothorn can get around you with Leech Seed + Leftovers + Protect and make sure your Low Kick isn't going to 2HKO. Choice Specs is actually the most common item on Keldeo, and even if it carried Scarf, it had to fear Knock Off if it dared to switch in. Also why the hell would Weavile switch into Talonflame lol. ScarfTar is never safe against LO Latios, maybe against Latias but still.

While you're right with the much better movepool, due to Greninja's horrible bulk, some strong priority moves will hurt badly even when resisted (especially Aqua Jet and Brave Bird). Stuff such as Conkeldurr or Scizor will be looking to switch into Ice Beam or Dark Pulse and then lol at you, but they need to predict so I guess you hit the point.

Also, I never said Weavile will surely be A- if Gren gets banned, I only said that the wannabe Greninja set might become a thing on the ladder and eventually push it to something such as A-, due to it destroying offense and hurting balanced teams. Definitely not as threatening as Greninja, but still worth a mention. But as it is right now, Weavile should definitely rise to B.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

Sorry if this is off topic, but I just realized something. The art banner on the first page says xy ou viability ranking, which is funny considering that the title is ORAS OU.

yes cause thats a huge deal lol

Weavile is the definition of a versatile anti meta mon. This guy most redeeming quality, however, is his speed. In fact, he is so fast, he outspeeds Pidgeot, who flies at the speed of Mach 2.

Jokes aside, he can run things like Low Kick to take out ferro (Although Iron Barbs and possible Rocky Helmet+LO Recoil sucks) and Emploleon, AND Heatran, and TTar, etc. Knock off and Ice Shard are mandatory slot moves and makes him an overall monster. LO Knock off does damage, and Ice Shard picks off ScarfDoge T and a few dragons.

Sadly the little tad has the defenses of a twig. A Mach Punch could snap the wanker in half. This is its problem. Unlike gren, this guy cant switch into a Poison type or whatever, but even then it is still one of the most anti meta mons in OU.

Isnt it funny how almost all anti meta mons are Ice types? No? Ok. Anyways, Id say B for Weavile isnt out of the order, but B- is fine too.

 

[Prinz]

Shouldnt we drop Lucario to C rank? I don't know, but I don't find any reason why someone should run it on ORAS tbh. It can't sweep stall teams because of Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro who can stop it all day long, can't break any offense team as well because all the megas are faster than it and in general it's easy to revenge-kill and it's quite weak even if its running Adamant + Life Orb. It also struggles against balanced teams because how Landorus-T is common now, another mon that can easily beat Lucario. It also has to choice what move run in its 4th slot, considering that SD + ESpeed + CC are mandatory in its main set. Ice Punch lets it to hit Landorus-T, Iron Tail lets it fairies and Bullet Punch is nice to hit Gengar / Terrakion and to have a second priority in general (even if it's probably the worst move beetween the three ones), but whichever move it decides to run, it will be walled by something. In general, I see it too much outclassed, frail for a setup sweeper, and it requires too much support to work well, thats why I think it should be dropped. As I said before, I just see no reasons why someone should run it in ORAS.

EDIT: Salt2DaFeds: Actually, without its trait, Medicham would be weaker than Gallade lol. It has a base attack of 100 while Gallade has one of 165 iirc, so yeah Medicham has more instant power than Gallade just because of its trait. There is no reasons to run it over Gallade tho, and I think that Sticky Web is too situational as well.

 

[pretty little liAr]

Do you mean C rank? Anyway, if you do mean C rank, then yes, it should. It is stopped cold by sableye and Slowbro, as you mentioned, has pitiful speed for a sweeper, making it overeliant on a non stab extreme speed, and it is so frail, that is hardley has any opportunities to set up. I agree with a severe drop to anywhere in C ranks though C fits this trash best.

 

[Prinz]

Yes I meant C rank, sorry for typing. Ill edit my previous post

 

[Chaoswalker]

In my eyes, Weavile's biggest draw is being damn fast and strong without taking your mega slot. When it comes to outspeeding and cleaning up the entire S tier, Weavile's not a bad candidate for the job. Give it the B at least. Looking though, I think it offers a little more than the likes of Beedrill and MLatios.



I haven't seen a threatening Lucario since gen 4. I hardly remember what it was meant to do. If Medicham and Infernape are C+, then Lucario is C for sure.

 

[pretty little liAr]

It was a typo. They wanted it to drop to C (which it should).

 

[BravelyDefault]

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

A- Rank

Diggersby



BLACKLISTED POKEMON: Pokemon that are not only unviable in OU, but also make the thread shitty whenever they are brought up because most people that argue about them getting ranked are inexperienced players using bad arguments.
Rules

• Post intelligently.

Why has no one brought this up yet?

 

[pretty little liAr]

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 302-356 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Sableye: 188-222 (61.8 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 294-347 (96.7 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
You wot

Specially attacking Luke is better anyways imo, even though they don't carry Crunch. Just because it lacks E-Speed doesn't mean it's worse. It still has priority and it doesn't get affected by Burns as much. But yeah, drop it to at least C. There's really no reason to be where it is now.

I though mega sableye ran max Defense these days...
Anyways, the problems I have with this is A, lucario almost never has a chance to set up on anything, thanks to its pitiful bulk, and B, lucario struggles to fit crunch into its moveset, as Iron tail is generally better, but this dose not matter in Mega Sableyes case as it takes even more from iron tail. Also, normal sableye would burn it first and then recover stall lucario until it dies of burn damage and life orb recoil.

 

[Alfalfa]

Considering that Lucario is meant to be a late-game cleaner, as it was always supposed to be, its checks will likely be weakened enough that Lucario can pick them off with the appropriate coverage move. While Lucario indeed has more checks in ORAS than it did in XY, I think the whole "it got more checks in ORAS, it sucks now" logic should not be the main reason behind dropping Lucario down a rank or two. Almost everything got new checks in ORAS, yet a lot of Pokemon have still managed to hold their own in the viability rankings. Just because something has new checks does not mean it is far less viable in ORAS than it was in XY. I am not saying that Lucario's viability is not lower in ORAS than it was in XY, but I think dropping it to C Rank using the bias I mentioned before is a very rash decision.

 

[Celticpride]

Why has no one brought this up yet?

...What are you implying exactly? That Diggersby should be blacklisted?