To be honest, though, it doesn't need that much support compared to other pokemon. It has good enough coverage that not much can switch in, meaning it doesn't need as damaged teams in order to sweep as stuff like Mega-Beedril. It also is not weak to stealth rock, which makes it easier to support than, say, Mega-Pinsir. It isn't crippled by burn, paralysis or revenged by Talonflame, all attributes that other sweepers have. In S rank alone, among setup sweepers, Thundurus hates Rocks, MegaGross hates burn and Latios hates Talonflame. The fact that it can hit certain high-ranked pokemon hard is not as important as the fact that it can take their hits and outspeed them. Keep in mind that while Thunderbolt, Dragon Pulse and Focus Blast are its best attack options, it also has HP Ice or Thunder wave for killing or annoying other threats. Also note that it is at least as good as other B- pokemon like Lucario and Scolipede. It is much better, at least, than Mega-Camerupt, Goodra and Gastrodon which all reside in C+. I'm not saying it should be S rank, it doesn't hit THAT hard and is still outsped by a few notable pokemon, but it's pros balance out it's cons and it should belong in B-.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
When your set up move doesn't have the ability to outpace one of the most dominant scarfers in the tier being Lando-T after one set up that isn't exactly impressive. M-Beedrill isn't a sweeper to begin with it's a momentum grabber and in some cases a revenge killer just by itself along with basic support and no need for set up what so ever. The difference between M-Pinsir and M-Ampharos in regards to support is that this support is mitigated by the fact that M-Pinsir doesn't have to rely on a speed boost to punch holes in a team and with 2 moves normally being Frustration/Return and Close Combat it's already able to get to work with its immense power. That's great it has these options but this now becomes a 4MSS issue in M-Ampharos' case unless I'm missing something along those lines that you forgot to mention. The difference between Lucario and Scolipede is that neither of them are megas so there's less cost of using them along with providing cleaning aspects in the form of Lucario and quick pass aspects and hazard stacking to amplify Scolipedes team support traits. How it's better than M-Camerupt is looking to me more like a subjective aspect that warrants discussion than an objective one cause I disagree that it's actually better enough to warrant a raise in rank from what I've seen and used in practice.
Hello, this is my first post and if you think I lack crucial knowledge or understanding on the current metagame, please don't hesitate to direct me to the mentoring forums.
Anyway, I happily present my opinion on the pokemon that currently reside in the b- tier (need some more time to do c+):
Azelf Moves From B- to B/B+
Azelf is arguably the best suicide lead for offensively oriented teams. 115 speed allows it out run Terrakion and garchomp, which it can taunt to prevent them from setting up stealth rocks. Fire blast makes a grave stone for ferrothorn, and explosion allows it to out with a bang. Unfortunately for the pixie of willpower, it is outrun by Greninja, the best pokemon in the Metagame. This means Azelf is forced to either explode immedientley, or only set up rocks. Other fast pokemon such as Mega Lopunny and Mega Beedrill give it trouble. Priority coming from the likes of Talonflame, Azumarill and scizor can also prove to be problematic. Despite these shortcomings, azelf is still one of the most reliable suicide leads for offence, and it's ranking should reflect that.
Doublade moves from B- to C
The twin sword ghost are no longer a completely necessary on stall teams, as mega sableye easily beats Gallade, which was Doublades primary role last round (except with medicham). Jirchi has seen a surge in usage, and beats mega gardevoir, a mega previously capable of 6-0ing stall teams. Simply put, not as effective as it used to be (Aegislash was much better).
Lucario moves from B- to C/C-
This may sound harsh but I don't see a use for it. Yes, swords dance plus extreme speed is nice, but it's so frail that it can almost never set up. Even if you somehow pull of a swords dance, you will need the opposing team to be severely weakened to rap up the match. Also, why not just use weavile or hawlcuha? There much better cleaners that finish teams with out needing to set up, and have better speed, so they can outrun stuff like Greninja (which is just an example as lucario can kill Greninja with extreme speed). Wait! There's more. The introduction of Mega Slowbro and Mega Sableye (which could honestly be S rank) just made it even harder for Lucario to sweep. Drop to C/C-.
Mega Sharpedo moves from B- to B
Sure loosing speed boost is rather undesirable, but tough jaws adamant crunch hits harder then any of regular life orb shapedo attacks (is regular Sharpedo even viable? Please answer). After a speed boost, mega Sharpedo can tear offensive teams to shreds and to dent balance as well. Unfortunately, it has to be preserved and held back from the battle until the opposing teams answers to it are removed or severely weakened, as speed boost can only be used once. This is the primary reason I am not nominating it for B+. It is also extremely vunrable to strong priority and extremely frail, which means it is forced to run protect.
Staraptor moves from B- to C+
To make this short and simple:
Bird spams gotten worse.
Speed tiers gotten worse.
Kills it self to quickly.
Could not bother to write anymore as it has already been discussed.
Weavile moves from B- to B/B+
Weavile is a effective cleaner in the metagame. With icicle crashes accuracy buff, and the knock off buff, weavile's rise is long over due. Unlike Lucario, it has very reliable stabs, with highly desirable effects (item removal, freeze hax, flinch). Weavile is also a threat that the meta seems to be unprepared for, and I'm sure I am not the only one who has been able to sucsessfully clean teams with it. With a great coverage move in low kick, and priority in ice shard, weavile is a deadly cleaner and revenge killer, and I think it is worthy of B/B+. Quick note: weavile's icé shard moves before pinsir's quick Attack and adamant talonflames brave bird. This means it can revenge kill these pokemon after prior damage.
Zapdos moves from B- to C
Zapdos is a pretty bad defogger. It has a bland movepool and it isn't even very bulky. Bird spam is lying in the cemetery, and this birds main niche was to counter all the pesky Talonflames and pin sirs running around. Not to mention that it's special Attack is rather weak by ou standards when uninvested, and it lacks the coverage to hit important threats like Ferrothron, Landerus Therian, Magnezone and Hydriegon.
Thanks for listening and acknowledging.
Just some other changes I support:
Conkelldurr moves from B- to B
Cressilia moves from B- to B
Mega Garchomp moves from B- to C+/C
Mega Houndoom moves from B- to B
Klefki moves from B- to B+ (omg this thing is good)
Togekiss moves from B- to B
Sylveon moves from B- to B
Everything in B- that I have not mentioned is fine where it is.
Once again, thank you!
Sorry for the lack of sprites :(
Anyway, I happily present my opinion on the pokemon that currently reside in the b- tier (need some more time to do c+):
Azelf Moves From B- to B/B+
Azelf is arguably the best suicide lead for offensively oriented teams. 115 speed allows it out run Terrakion and garchomp, which it can taunt to prevent them from setting up stealth rocks. Fire blast makes a grave stone for ferrothorn, and explosion allows it to out with a bang. Unfortunately for the pixie of willpower, it is outrun by Greninja, the best pokemon in the Metagame. This means Azelf is forced to either explode immedientley, or only set up rocks. Other fast pokemon such as Mega Lopunny and Mega Beedrill give it trouble. Priority coming from the likes of Talonflame, Azumarill and scizor can also prove to be problematic. Despite these shortcomings, azelf is still one of the most reliable suicide leads for offence, and it's ranking should reflect that.
Doublade moves from B- to C
The twin sword ghost are no longer a completely necessary on stall teams, as mega sableye easily beats Gallade, which was Doublades primary role last round (except with medicham). Jirchi has seen a surge in usage, and beats mega gardevoir, a mega previously capable of 6-0ing stall teams. Simply put, not as effective as it used to be (Aegislash was much better).
Lucario moves from B- to C/C-
This may sound harsh but I don't see a use for it. Yes, swords dance plus extreme speed is nice, but it's so frail that it can almost never set up. Even if you somehow pull of a swords dance, you will need the opposing team to be severely weakened to rap up the match. Also, why not just use weavile or hawlcuha? There much better cleaners that finish teams with out needing to set up, and have better speed, so they can outrun stuff like Greninja (which is just an example as lucario can kill Greninja with extreme speed). Wait! There's more. The introduction of Mega Slowbro and Mega Sableye (which could honestly be S rank) just made it even harder for Lucario to sweep. Drop to C/C-.
Mega Sharpedo moves from B- to B
Sure loosing speed boost is rather undesirable, but tough jaws adamant crunch hits harder then any of regular life orb shapedo attacks (is regular Sharpedo even viable? Please answer). After a speed boost, mega Sharpedo can tear offensive teams to shreds and to dent balance as well. Unfortunately, it has to be preserved and held back from the battle until the opposing teams answers to it are removed or severely weakened, as speed boost can only be used once. This is the primary reason I am not nominating it for B+. It is also extremely vunrable to strong priority and extremely frail, which means it is forced to run protect.
Staraptor moves from B- to C+
To make this short and simple:
Bird spams gotten worse.
Speed tiers gotten worse.
Kills it self to quickly.
Could not bother to write anymore as it has already been discussed.
Weavile moves from B- to B/B+
Weavile is a effective cleaner in the metagame. With icicle crashes accuracy buff, and the knock off buff, weavile's rise is long over due. Unlike Lucario, it has very reliable stabs, with highly desirable effects (item removal, freeze hax, flinch). Weavile is also a threat that the meta seems to be unprepared for, and I'm sure I am not the only one who has been able to sucsessfully clean teams with it. With a great coverage move in low kick, and priority in ice shard, weavile is a deadly cleaner and revenge killer, and I think it is worthy of B/B+. Quick note: weavile's icé shard moves before pinsir's quick Attack and adamant talonflames brave bird. This means it can revenge kill these pokemon after prior damage.
Zapdos moves from B- to C
Zapdos is a pretty bad defogger. It has a bland movepool and it isn't even very bulky. Bird spam is lying in the cemetery, and this birds main niche was to counter all the pesky Talonflames and pin sirs running around. Not to mention that it's special Attack is rather weak by ou standards when uninvested, and it lacks the coverage to hit important threats like Ferrothron, Landerus Therian, Magnezone and Hydriegon.
Thanks for listening and acknowledging.
Just some other changes I support:
Conkelldurr moves from B- to B
Cressilia moves from B- to B
Mega Garchomp moves from B- to C+/C
Mega Houndoom moves from B- to B
Klefki moves from B- to B+ (omg this thing is good)
Togekiss moves from B- to B
Sylveon moves from B- to B
Everything in B- that I have not mentioned is fine where it is.
Once again, thank you!
Sorry for the lack of sprites :(
Mr. Hothead
formerly Salt2DaFeds
Nominating Cresselia for B rank.
I didnt check the past pages so mind me if im repeating what someone else said, sorry.
This this is a defensive monster, with more bulk than Mega Audino (You might be thinking that isnt a big deal but that is actually Mega Audinos only good perk.) and a single typing. Seriously, this guy is probably the best mixed bulk mon in the meta.
Lets check some calcs before we actually go to real lengths.
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 216-254 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Powerful hit, and in return gets a 100% chance to 3HKO after item is taken off.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 281-330 (63.2 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With life orb. Now, it gets 2HKOed but it can use this time to cripple it with Thunder Wave.
Now, obviously you wouldnt stay into Bisharp unless you powersaved and got Focus Blast or had some sort of way to cripple it.
So, heres some special threats that it can take out.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 165-196 (37.1 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Draco Meteor, Latios's hardest hitting STAB doesnt even 2HKO Cress and it loses half of its Special Attacking stat. In the meantime, Cress can fire back and hit with an Moonblast that does a little less.
0 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 100-118 (33.1 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
Obviously Cress wins if both of the pokemon are at full health, as Latios has to switch out or sack itself or switch out.
Now, obviously Cress was only made to tank hits and stall really well, and it does a hell of a good job doing so. This guy can tank Knock Offs from Bisharp and absorb Draco Meteors from Latios. Not only is that impressive, it can also do more than that.
An extremely reliable Screen Setter and TR setter, a Toxic Staller, hell, if you wanted to it can even run a CM set! This guy has so much natural bulk that it can do almost anything with its ok movepool. This guy also works as a great switch in with stall pokemon and tanks hits like a boss.
Obviously its one and only home is Stall and maybe BO, but this thing deserves B rank for being a great defensive threat and overall annoying.
I didnt check the past pages so mind me if im repeating what someone else said, sorry.
This this is a defensive monster, with more bulk than Mega Audino (You might be thinking that isnt a big deal but that is actually Mega Audinos only good perk.) and a single typing. Seriously, this guy is probably the best mixed bulk mon in the meta.
Lets check some calcs before we actually go to real lengths.
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 216-254 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Powerful hit, and in return gets a 100% chance to 3HKO after item is taken off.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 281-330 (63.2 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With life orb. Now, it gets 2HKOed but it can use this time to cripple it with Thunder Wave.
Now, obviously you wouldnt stay into Bisharp unless you powersaved and got Focus Blast or had some sort of way to cripple it.
So, heres some special threats that it can take out.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 165-196 (37.1 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Draco Meteor, Latios's hardest hitting STAB doesnt even 2HKO Cress and it loses half of its Special Attacking stat. In the meantime, Cress can fire back and hit with an Moonblast that does a little less.
0 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 100-118 (33.1 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
Obviously Cress wins if both of the pokemon are at full health, as Latios has to switch out or sack itself or switch out.
Now, obviously Cress was only made to tank hits and stall really well, and it does a hell of a good job doing so. This guy can tank Knock Offs from Bisharp and absorb Draco Meteors from Latios. Not only is that impressive, it can also do more than that.
An extremely reliable Screen Setter and TR setter, a Toxic Staller, hell, if you wanted to it can even run a CM set! This guy has so much natural bulk that it can do almost anything with its ok movepool. This guy also works as a great switch in with stall pokemon and tanks hits like a boss.
Obviously its one and only home is Stall and maybe BO, but this thing deserves B rank for being a great defensive threat and overall annoying.
I agree with everything except:
- Lucario - Sure it's frail, but unboosted CC's are still hella powerful, and unboosted E-Speed is still finishing off a lot of mons on offense. You can also tailor it to handle what you want; Fairies or bulky Psychics by opting for Iron Tail or Crunch.
- Staraptor - Can check almost literally any Pokemon slower than it because of its insane BB, and if played well can net multiple kills in a match. It's fine where it is imo.
- Weavile - Don't really think it deserves a raise. Common, and very threatening Pokemon like Azumarill and Keldeo check it, and Weavile teams are unlikely to have good answers to either of these things.
- Mega Garchomp - If anything this guy has gotten better with the rise of stall. It's the most durable and lethal wallbreaker against these teams, and as someone who's used it I can affirm that it pulls its weight surprisingly well. It's fine where it is imo.
blinkie
¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯ dank meme crew
Your bulk may be nice but Psychic typing is trash and also doesn't even really have reliable recovery(Moonlight = bad in rain and sand). Plus Cress has almost no offensive presence and can't do anything back to most of the stuff it should wall. Pretty much all you can do is switch in and eat a hit and then Toxic stall. You can't even pass Wishes to your teammates meaning it faces competition from a bunch of other stall mons that can like Chansey, Mola, etc. BTW Cress is also completely shut down by Toxic, meaning you constantly need Cleric support. You can't repeatedly check stuff because it can hit you, switch out, and then keep hitting you. IMO you didn't mention its best niche which is screens + Lunar Dance. BTW there are much better CM setters. There is only so much you can check as Cress runs into massive 4MSS. BTW you have huge competition with stuff like Sylveon, that can actually hit hard, pass Wishes, etc. Also not having a way to stop physical attackers(WoW, Scald etc) hurts it badly. Finally mega Sableye just runs all over Cress bouncing back Toxic Twave etc and setup fodder in general. Same with a lot of other bulky offense mons.
Lucario- I was probaly a little harsh on it, but it should drop to C+ (at least). CC is strong even U boosted by when running adamant you get outpaced and maimed by pokemon with offensive prescence. Even on stall, sableye and Slowbro use you set up fodder
Staraptor- agree with you here. I did not regonnize its potetinal until now.
Garchomp- I thought this had been settled but their are better mega wall breakers. You also loose the opportunity to use another mega, which is pretty bad considering mega pokemon are really good right now.
Sorry for thee quick post. Did not much time.
Mr. Hothead
formerly Salt2DaFeds
I dont trust a name like that, but you do bring plenty of viable arguments.
a. Cress does has some offensive presence, even with a shit 75 Special attack it can run Calm Mind, and with its amazing bulk it can go places with it.
b. Im not saying you should switch into shit like Bisharp, i was just giving an example of its amazing bulk. Toxic stalling things like Latios, Zard Y, basically anything that doesnt run Dark type moves and is immune to Toxic.
c. It does learn Lunar Dance, however, which could also be good for eliminating Status and restoring health when Cress is on the verge of death. Cant beleive i forgot about that lol.
d. In some cases you shouldnt really use Cress to check stuff but rather to TR and leave or dish out status.
Honestly for the rest im quite speechless and i dont know what to say. I guess B was a little too much and I was thinking of actually putting him down to C+ in the middle of my rank.
Well, I have to say i agree with you altogether.
The thing with Scarf Lando-T is that, while it does easily win with Earthquake, there is absolutely nothing wrong with just switching out. While it does mean you have to set up again, the fact remains that it has the bulk and typing to set up on common stuff, Rotom-W being an example. I have been able to give Mega-Ampharos an agility boost without it taking damage so often; it helps that it isn't really afraid of stall and can set up on a lot of stallmons. Also, Pinsir may not rely on a speed boost, but it relies on a swords dance boost to sweep. Pinsor actually finds it harder to set up in most games without playing around with it's typing change after mega evolution. It also relies on Quick Attack far more than any othet move, because of it's middling speed tier. Ampharos doesn't have this problem.
The definition of 4MSS has been reviewed many times in light of the Greninja suspect, but it is only 4MSS if the pokemon cannot fully fulfil it's role with only 4 moves. Ampharos fairs fine with it's standard set, and it's performance isn't crippled by the fact that it only has 4 moveslots. Yes, Lucario and Scolipede are not megas, but their performances are far worse than Ampharos. Keep in mind that nothing directly outclasses Ampharos, while the role of a cleaner or hazard setter exists in far better forms than Lucario and Scolipede.
Camerupt may only have water and ground weaknesses as opposed to ice, dragon, fairy and ground, but Camerupt lacks the the great resistances Ampharos has that let it set up, and it's water weakness makes setting up a chore in most cases, while not even hitting the same speed benchmarks in return. It has worse neutral STAB coverage, worse coverage options and no niche in beating birdspam. It's one advantage is power, but it has beem shown that due to it's pathetic speed it can't break walls nor offense, and the difficulties it has boosting make it heavily inferior to Ampharos.
But why am I even comparing Ampharos to Pinsir? I am not trying to bring it to A, B- or B is completely fine and comparing Ampharos to Pinsor is like comparing an assault rifle to a matchlock (not quite, it's an exaggeration), but I think that B- is perfectly reasonable for Mega-Ampharos.
If your set up sweeper is going to be forced out to switch every time it comes in, which will be often considering they'll know you fall under a lower speed tier factoring boost, that's just going to be exploitable every time. M-Ampharos is one of those things that sure it can hit hard and do ok against offensive builds but this is implying that through match-up it has this opportunity and isn't getting worn down in the process. Pinsir relies on SD to accomplish a more definitive sweep. It can still punch holes in teams before it goes for the set up where as M-Ampharos' falls under such a low speed tier that it has an over dependency on its defensive traits to set up and momentarily accomplish its offensive ones. I brought up the 4 MSS because you implied that HP Ice and Thunder Wave were other options to forgo what I'm assuming agility so basically it's a tradeoff of what you want to threaten from my understanding. In regards to set up sweepers there is a lot of cost of not using something like M-Gross as your agility sweeper who is just more potent in the tier where as M-Ampharos in the tier is more of a select option similar to the viability of M-Camerupt. So in a way it is outclassed enough in viability to the point where it's current rank is justifiable for me personally.
M-Ampharos' resistances and effectiveness is in a similar vein to M-Camerupt, they are match-up based. They benefit from match-ups against offensive builds who don't have definitive switch-ins to their STAB such as Hyper Offense but anything else such as Bulky Offense or Stall can simply wear them down through the use of Hazards and consistent pressure. It's also the fact that it doesn't actually break stall when you have Chansey on these teams and with Clefable spreads beefing up their special defense to counteract Manaphys presence as well which is basically counter productive for M-Ampharos' sake. At least M-Garchomp has the ability to break your passive stall-builds much more effectively and still has presence against offense without being forced out by every single Lando-T ever but more importantly doesn't have over dependency on match-ups as much as something like M-Camerupt and M-Ampharos does. In regards to Bulky Offense it's the fact it just gets worn down and with M-Altaria becoming a fantastic staple on Bulky Offense, M-Ampharos is basically shut down completely if we go off of your coverage moves. In regards to Lucario and Scolipede you can argue with opinions on their effectiveness but the fact they aren't megas is a pretty huge factor in why I would see their viability placement over M-Ampharos' when you have so many more efficient options and choices to handle the tier as far as megas go.
In all honesty though you would need to convince me through some really good replays against various play-styles for me to be convinced at this point cause B- is sort of high for something that's suppose to reflect the definition of B ranks but in practice is hindered by natural meta-games trends and its effectiveness in regards to its agility set being overhyped with just pure theorymon at this point.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Poison Jab vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 260-307 (75.3 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Just saying.
I mean, azu resists both of weaviles stab moves and can easily switch in on them, but has to be wary of Poison Jab - which therefore makes it a check, not a counter. Hell, it could even run aerial ace to hit Keldeo.
Weavile wants both STABs (preferably Knock Off, Ice Shard, and Icicle Crash) and Low Kick to get past Steels, Tyranitar, Heatran, and Terrakion. It could run Posion Jab or Aerial Ace, but each of those other moves are too important.
Contrary Serperior is now out in Japan (yeah timezone and stuff), so if we're allowed to talk about it, i'm nominating it for C- rank. Despite its poor base 75 special attack and average defenses, its Leaf Storm will hit very hard at +2 assuming the opponent doesn't resist it. Dragon Pulse allows it to beat Zard X and fire-types. Unfortunately, outside of Leaf Storm and Dragon Pulse, Serperior lacks good coverage moves and is forced to choose between HP Fire (for Scizor, Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Magnezone) and HP Rock (Mega Pinsir, Zard Y, Talonflame). It really hates LO recoil and can be easily walled if it runs Specs. It's also prone to revenge killing from stuff such as Talonflame's Brave Bird and Mamoswine's Ice Shard, especially when it's weakened.
Yeah, the meta really isn't kind to it, but it can be effective. Maybe I'm severely underrating it? I still think C- is fine
Yeah, the meta really isn't kind to it, but it can be effective. Maybe I'm severely underrating it? I still think C- is fine
It's not out in Japan. The code's been released but it's not redeemable until next month on the 9th.
*sigh* all this theorymon and nowhere to make use of it. It's like the run-up to Christmas all over again.
But yeah, you're kinda underselling it, just a bit. Specs (or any choice set) is absolutely not worth running, so far the consensus seems to be LO/Leftovers/AV (although AV sets tend to be flavour-of-the-month on any 'mon, so maybe give that one time... but it DOES get access to Knock Off, a healing move, and a boosting move, so YMMV.) Giga Drain or Synthesis offset LO's longevity and you have just enough room to run one of them (plus Giga Drain offsets the Leaf Storm PP issues). HP Rock is subpar since a +2 DPulse already hits its targets for heavy damage on the switch, HP Ground/HP Fire is what you're looking at most of the time (Ground if running alongside a Magnezone). It's a semi-decent pivot, forms a few neat cores, is a surprisingly good wallbreaker, can provide speedy screens with alright bulk, has a niche in being able to paralyze things with base 113 speed and at the end of the day, if none of that suits anybody, it's a substitute mega Sceptile that doesn't use the Mega slot. I'd say C to start with, unless C- is where things that haven't been used yet start. Once it's actually usable on PS we'll have a better idea. It might end up in D once the meta starts adapting to it, or maybe it'll be a B staple. Nothing really does what it does so it's hard to know right now.
My username will make me seem biased, but w/e.theV8man said:
It makes no sense to say that Weavile teams are unlikely to have good answers to Azumarill and Keldeo. Teams based around Weavile are more likely to have answers to these things; that's how one builds a team. You run counters to counters. You wouldn't make a Mega-Scizor team without counters to Heatran and Skarm.
As for Weavile raising/dropping I would say it's worth noting Weavile hits all the S-rank pokemon for super effective damage, as well as many other top threats. Its high power and speed make it a great revenge killer/late game cleaner. Its attack stat makes it capable of cleaning up a lot of things that it doesn't even hit super effectively, especially with powerful STABs in Icicle Crash and Knock Off. It can also function as a Pursuit-trapper if you want it to. I'd say all this warrants a rise to B+.
blinkie
¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯ dank meme crew
Honestly the first thing I'd say is its harder than you think to just fit Weavile on a team, you can't just slap it on any team like other mons.
*cough* Greninja and Landoge *cough*
Trust me to make a good Weavile squad you actually have to build around it, and have your team cover it, something you don't need for other mons.
I wouldn't call Ice Crash that powerful btw, 85 BP is just average. You're also overselling base 120 attack, it really isn't that good compared to other OU mons. You said that Weavile hits all S rank pokemon super effectively, but the problem is you can't switch in on any of them either. So yeah you have to fodder stuff to get it in, take 1/4 of your HP off with SR. If he gets in something that you can't OHKO well its very likely it can OHKO you in return. Weavile still retains some Weavile syndrome, it simply doesn't hit hard enough for something that has to OHKO or get OHKOd. Not to mention being weak to Bullet Punch and Mach Punch.
BTW Weavile isn't a really reliable Pursuit trapper. Sure it has good speed that allows it to not have to take a hit, but also you can't switch in without getting nuked, something mons like TTar have over it. It does NOT reliably Pursuit trap stuff...
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 174-211 (57.8 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yea i know its 40 bp but you don't even come close to OHKOing if he stays in
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 282-333 (100.3 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
pretty much have to get in on psyshock or fodder to trap after draco etc
With Azu being really common on suspect ladder right now getting walled by it isn't good for Weavile. Seriously don't oversell it, I would say it doesn't kill stuff it hits super effectively.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 265-312 (67.2 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You can't really use Weavile as a late-game cleaner, it simply can't stay in for too long. And did I mention for a hit and run mon, being SR weak kinda wears you down? Its kinda hard to clean if random stuff like resisted Bisharp sucker punch can do up to 40%.
i don't think weavile deserve a rise tbh. it's extremely frail, it's stealth rock weak and it has other important weaknesses as well (steel, fairy and fight). it's true that it can pursuit-trap lati twins, but bisharp does it much better and tyranitar as well, so that doesn't make a point to make it b+ rank. if it was somewhat useful in salamence era because it could hit hard mence, now there aren't real reasons to use it. i mean, it's outclassed by something in every aspect. maybe it can be still helpful for its speed tier, but even in that feature, oras gave us some faster mon (lopunny mainly, but beedrill and sceptile as well), and you can always run a choice scarf mon as your revenge-killer without running weavile.
It's not exactly about the Lati twins alone as its speed tier allows it to trap Gengar and various other cores that implement Psychic types without the use of Choice Scarf in Tyranitars case or going off of mind-games to not get hit with Focus Blast from Gengar due to its lower speed tier. These faster mons you just provided are all megas which can't just be willingly implemented on teams by itself and Weavile is not exactly a main player but is usually a supplementary mon paired up with offensive builds for its pursuit trapping abilities, along with priority that allows itself to check the very dominant core of Genie Offense, with solid power behind Life Orb to boot. Also it's a rise to B we're looking at not B+ which is obviously too high for the cons you mentioned.
I was saying that, because Weavile is most commonly found on largely offensive teams; which tend to be quite threatened by Azu and Keldeo. I also don't really see why you'd make a team based around something that primarily excels at revenge killing. If anything Weavile is put on a team to check specific dangerous threats like Greninja or Thundurus. There's also the fact that its typing leaves it to be wrecked by priority, like fighting and steel. This generation there's also new megas like Lopunny and Bedrill that outspeed and KO. Finally, with a SR weakness and LO, Weavile can easily kill itself after a few switch-ins and attacks, not to mention its frailty. Overall, I think it's fine in B.
Can we all just agree to not talk about Jolteon. It's blacklisted and people are still discussing it.
Anyway:
Tangrowth moves from C+ to B-
Tangrowth checks lots of threats, as previously implied. It has great support moves, such as knock off, sleep powder, and leech seed. It's a big pain to take down with regenerator, and walls landerus and can rock slide Talonflame on a switch. Here is how it performs threats:
Mega Metagross
Tangrowth tanks any hit at full health and can put it to sleep. If some is already asleep, tangrowth can not do much.
Mega Sableye
Tangrowth is set up fodder :(
Latios
Assult vest Tangrowth survives draco and can out to sleep or knock off. Leftovers tangrowth needs tons of special Defense investment to check, forcing it to sacrifice it's physical bulk. Tangrowth can not switch in either. Latios's favor. Slighly
Mega Gyarados
Tangrowth walls mega Gyarados!!! It needs to get multiple boosts to kill tangrowth, as a +2 crunch fails to kill. If not taunted, tangrowth can sleep powder (assuming noting else is asleep) or Giga drain for a two hit ko. Solid check.
Thunderus Incarnate
Without hidden power ice/flying, tangrowth checks. Assult vest checks hidden power ice variats. Hidden power flying is problematic for tangrowth, but tangrowth is no helpless. It can rock slide or knock off for good damage, put to sleep or leech seed, the latter two for non assult vest variants. The matchup is dependent on the set.
Landerus Therian
Tangrowth pretty much counters it. U-turn is weak, and while loosing it's item it bad, tangrowth can still easily beat landerus. It can giga drain for good damage, knock off it's item, put to sleep, leech seed and Landerus is completely helpless. Tangrowth wins.
Greninja
R.I.P tangrowth, though if it's assult, it can take an ice beam....
As you can see, tangrowth can go head to head with some of the top threats of the metagame. I think this is enough to warrant a appropriate ranking of B-.
Other stuff I support:
Weavile moves from B- to B(no longer B+)
Staraptor stays where it is
Lucario moves from B- to C+/C or even C-
Sableye moves from C+ to C
Infernape falls from C+ to C
Goodra falls from C+ to C
Magneton moves from C+ to B-
Stuff I am still thinking about
Mega Camuruptt from C+ to C?
Cobalion from C+ to B-?
Anyway:
Tangrowth moves from C+ to B-
Tangrowth checks lots of threats, as previously implied. It has great support moves, such as knock off, sleep powder, and leech seed. It's a big pain to take down with regenerator, and walls landerus and can rock slide Talonflame on a switch. Here is how it performs threats:
Mega Metagross
Tangrowth tanks any hit at full health and can put it to sleep. If some is already asleep, tangrowth can not do much.
Mega Sableye
Tangrowth is set up fodder :(
Latios
Assult vest Tangrowth survives draco and can out to sleep or knock off. Leftovers tangrowth needs tons of special Defense investment to check, forcing it to sacrifice it's physical bulk. Tangrowth can not switch in either. Latios's favor. Slighly
Mega Gyarados
Tangrowth walls mega Gyarados!!! It needs to get multiple boosts to kill tangrowth, as a +2 crunch fails to kill. If not taunted, tangrowth can sleep powder (assuming noting else is asleep) or Giga drain for a two hit ko. Solid check.
Thunderus Incarnate
Without hidden power ice/flying, tangrowth checks. Assult vest checks hidden power ice variats. Hidden power flying is problematic for tangrowth, but tangrowth is no helpless. It can rock slide or knock off for good damage, put to sleep or leech seed, the latter two for non assult vest variants. The matchup is dependent on the set.
Landerus Therian
Tangrowth pretty much counters it. U-turn is weak, and while loosing it's item it bad, tangrowth can still easily beat landerus. It can giga drain for good damage, knock off it's item, put to sleep, leech seed and Landerus is completely helpless. Tangrowth wins.
Greninja
R.I.P tangrowth, though if it's assult, it can take an ice beam....
As you can see, tangrowth can go head to head with some of the top threats of the metagame. I think this is enough to warrant a appropriate ranking of B-.
Other stuff I support:
Weavile moves from B- to B(no longer B+)
Staraptor stays where it is
Lucario moves from B- to C+/C or even C-
Sableye moves from C+ to C
Infernape falls from C+ to C
Goodra falls from C+ to C
Magneton moves from C+ to B-
Stuff I am still thinking about
Mega Camuruptt from C+ to C?
Cobalion from C+ to B-?
I like Weavile. He's pretty good right now to be honest, better than he's been in a while since the Mega Mence ban.
I think B+ is a bit too much of a rise, or at least right now, but B- is definitely too low, and if we're thinking of raising Mega Doom to B then we should sure as hell raise Weavile too. As much as I like Mega Doom, there's no way that Mega Doom is more viable than Weavile. Both have their niches in the meta; Mega Doom's typing and Speed tier makes it an outstanding check to many top tier threats and defensive Pokemon, while Weavile's combination of powerful priority, blazing Speed stat, decently powerful STAB moves, and Pursuit trapping abilities makes it a great option for many offensive teams in need of a solid revenge killer as well as something to pressure common deffogers and checkmate Gengar. They're similar in that they both have the Speed, typing, and utility to have a solid niche in this meta. Putting either of them in B+ with less niche stuff such as Skarm, Loom, Kou, and Kabutops doesn't seem right though, B is perfect for the both of them IMO.
I think B+ is a bit too much of a rise, or at least right now, but B- is definitely too low, and if we're thinking of raising Mega Doom to B then we should sure as hell raise Weavile too. As much as I like Mega Doom, there's no way that Mega Doom is more viable than Weavile. Both have their niches in the meta; Mega Doom's typing and Speed tier makes it an outstanding check to many top tier threats and defensive Pokemon, while Weavile's combination of powerful priority, blazing Speed stat, decently powerful STAB moves, and Pursuit trapping abilities makes it a great option for many offensive teams in need of a solid revenge killer as well as something to pressure common deffogers and checkmate Gengar. They're similar in that they both have the Speed, typing, and utility to have a solid niche in this meta. Putting either of them in B+ with less niche stuff such as Skarm, Loom, Kou, and Kabutops doesn't seem right though, B is perfect for the both of them IMO.
Greninja is extremely frail too, yet it's being suspected. Tbh Weavile's rock weakness does not hinder it as much as you think, unless you try to play it as a pseudo-Greninja (but hey what serious team doesn't carry defog or rapid spin?). A 100% Weavile has barely more survivability than one at 76%. Its other weaknesses don't really matter either (bar maybe bug) due to its already paperthin defenses. Bisharp and Tyranitar both fail to outspeed Lati@s unless T-tar uses Scarf (which can become setup fodder). Also Weavile was already a shaky check to MegaMence since Ice Shard didn't always OHKO and bulkier variants could shit on it.
But what made me lol was the bolded part. One, Lopunny, Beedrill and Sceptile all face huge opportunity cost, due to them taking up a mega slot. Beedrill is forced to run Protect due to its shit defenses and speed. Two, Beedrill and especially Sceptile can be easily revenge killed by Weavile when they are at about 60%. And three, Weavile has much better coverage than all three. Between Knock Off, Low Kick, Icicle Crash and Poison Jab, Weavile can act as a Greninja wannabe, except with a SR weakness and a much less powerful Poison-type move (but in return, it gets a much stronger Ice-type attack and freaking Knock Off). As for scarfed mons, being locked into one attack isn't always helpful, since you could be turned into setup fodder. Sure, you can outspeed stuff such as Mega Manectric, but you need to be able to KO it as well.
Weavile should definitely rise to B at least, maybe B+ or even A- if Greninja gets the boot
- Status