np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]

[gauchoninja]

Hey guys, I'm in the middle of getting my COIL up on the suspect test ladder, but I'm not quite sure how the mechanics work. I read something about, "If your GXE isn't high enough, it's impossible to meet the reqs." Does anyone know what the threshold is to make it possible to hit 2700?

Also, I tried using the formula for calculating how many matches it would take me depending on my GXE. I had a GXE of 69 at the time and I think the formula gave an output of 300-something. My GXE is at 70 right now and my coil is 1542 (a little over halfway to hitting 2700), which I reached after 20 matches (15 wins and 5 losses). Based on the formula telling me I will need 300 or so matches, should I expect this to slow down? And if my GXE drops to a certain point, will it be impossible for me to meet the reqs? Thanks in advance for any clarification!

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Okay, can people please stop saying that Greninja wouldn't stand a chance in Ubers as if that's an actual argument? Not only does a Pokemon's performance in Ubers mean literally jack squat when discussing its ban status, but it's not even a true statement. People are acting like Ubers players have never seen a Greninja before. It's currently B- on the Ubers Viability Ranking thanks to its access to Spikes, the rarer Toxic Spikes, and a fast Taunt, which all combine to give it a usable niche as a hazard lead. It's like those people arguing earlier this generation that Blaziken shouldn't have been banned because it would be useless in Ubers. Meanwhile, Blaziken was sitting pretty in A+ rank and was heralded as one of the more dangerous sweepers in the metagame. So yeah, please stop making that argument for two reasons: one, it's irrelevant, and two, it's outright false.

 

[pretty little liAr]

Just because something is medicore in Ubers doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned in OU. We are trying to do what is best for the metagame, not make sure a pokemon can preform decently in at least one tier. Also why are you talking about Xerneas when this is OU? Greninja needs to go. It has a ton of coverage and can lay hazards, although usually doesn't have the space for Taunt. It forces most teams to sack a pokemon to try to revenge it, although it can simply escape after getting a kill and take down another pokemon. Even if you carry a "counter", it still may be beaten beaten by coverage leaving you open to your team being swept or severely weakened by it. All i see is that it is basically uncounterable, very hard to revenge with its high speed, and can ability to change types for universal STAB. This is proof enough that it should be banned in my mind.

Sigh
I was talking about its ability in ubers. Not Ou. My argument was that Greninja should be banned and that it is not completely, terrible in ubers, like some people are implying. It's B- rank on the viability thread. Please take care to read posts more accurately in the future.

 

[LightenUp]

This might have been said before, but I'd like to insist on the fact that Greninja really holds back the metagame in terms of speed. When building a team, there's a lot of things that you probably won't end up including because "it's fast but it gets revenge killed by Greninja". As a matter of fact, Metagross might become close to unstoppable if we do decide to kick Froge out. Anyway, given that the group of relevant mons that can RK Ninja itself (outside of scarfers and of course priority) is mostly composed of various Megas that hit ridiculous speed tiers, you have to build a defensive mon if you want to have a reliable check to it. And that's where comes the problem : few special tanks can boast from the feat of stopping Greninja. Aside from SpeDef Rotom-W and Chansey, pretty much nothing that isn't an obscure nichemon can come in on it safely and expect to live the following turn, leading in an instant loss of momentum. Greninja is too good at both eliminating threats on your opponent's team and cleaning up late game; it runs quite easily through most teams when Talonflame / Scarfers are gone.

 

[HardlySaucy]

Ok, I posted my thoughts as to why Smogon's favorite frog should be banned before, but after reading other people's opinions I think there are some things that should be cleared up:

Greninja does not have 4MSS
Heaps of people have said this before. It simply has a huge coverage which can leave out certain Pokemon. Greninja's role is not to 6-0 teams but to provide team support by removing as many threats to the user's team as possible. An example of 4MSS is Mega Beedrill, a sweeper that can be 100% countered by either Skarmory or Heatran depending on its choice of coverage moves.

Being frail is not a factor in Greninja's viability
Greninja is very frail, yes. But its ridiculous speed tier without having to use a turn to gain it like most Mega Evolutions means that the only hits it is likely to take are priority, scarfers or even faster mons, most (if not all) of which need to mega evolve to gain that speed tier, meaning Mega Sceptile, for example, is not a viable switch before mega evolution. Any experienced player knows when to switch Greninja out, preserving it for a revenge kill or a slow volt-turn later. Very little can actually switch in to its hits safely, as due to its speed they need to be able to survive 2 hits.

There are other, less important points such as Greninja's viability in Ubers having nothing to do with its banworthiness in OU, etc., but the two above points are the main points.

 

[Pat Labor]

After somes battles and reqs obteined, I share my fellings here.
Greninja is a top threat Pokémon, no matter how he will weakened opponants pokémon with ease. Even to check his movepool on a resistance, the mon will takes less or more a bit of punch in face. Yeah Just to "check his movepool"... thanks Protean.

The greninja-less metagame is not funny or enjoyable in my point of view, and I didn't care. The fact is he is more competitive, your team building is not centralized by "how I check this frog", but how I break the metagame (with greninja in your team you didn't have the need to think about that).

 

[brizz]

I've already got reqs and I've done some further laddering as well and...yep, Greninja should go :/
Here's my opinion about it:

First, Greninja's move pool is WAY to wide. It has, in fact, access to Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Extrasensory, Hidden Power Fire/Grass, Grass Knot, Gunk Shot, Low Kick as well as some cool supporting moves, such as Substitute and Spikes. Now, assuming that Greninja is running the standard set (which I believe is Hydro Pump - Ice Beam - Dark Pulse - Gunk Shot) it is clear that no offensive team has reliable switch-ins. Checks such as Raikou and Keldeo are 2HKO'd on the switch-in, so most offensive team are forced to sack a pkmn or go for a risky 50/50. Now, I do realize that defensive-oriented teams can afford a few switches on Greninja, but pkmns such as Conkeldurr, Ferrothorn, Alomomola and even Tentacruel and Empoleon (despite being quite good, these two being used is just insane) lose to the gimmicky moves - not so gimmick, actually - I mentioned before.

Every kind of team is, because of this, forced to over prepare to Greninja, which is limiting to teambuilding. While a stall team might afford to run multiple checks, an offensive team would not be prepared for many other threats, most likely. Anyway, being forced to dedicate two to three teamslots for a single mon is just bad. The use of multiple check on offense/balanced might not even be effective to stop Greninja, as its Protean-boosted moves hit really hard. You should also remember that Greninja can simply switch out from a check/revengekiller and come back later to get a kill.

At last, I've found my ladder experience unexpectedly enjoyable, in the no-Greninja metagame. No obscure threats that catch you off guard, no weird stall teams that run a bunch of wall to overprotect from top threats and no over centralizing mon to replace Greninja. In my opinion this is a sign that banning Greninja would lead to a healthy metagame

Ban

 

[TheEnder]

Although I'm probably going to repeat some arguments that other people have brought up, I'm going to state my opinion on Greninja, and wether I think the metagame would benefit from having it gone or not. Greninja has almost unmatched capabilities as an offensive Pokemon, to the point where all playstyles have to prepare especially well for it, in order to stand a living chance against it. Its high Base Speed, good offensive stats, amazing ability, and great coverage, greatly limit the amount of Pokemon capable of switching into it. Handling Greninja defensively without sacrificing multiple team slots or running sub-par Pokemon such as Porygon-2 or Tentacruel is close to impossible, as you have prepare for all the options Greninja is capable of running. Handling Greninja offensively isn't exactly easy, either, despite it having poor bulk; its Speed forces offensive teams to rely on Choice Scarf users or priority to handle it, which is generally a liability, as being locked into the wrong move can easily be taken advantage of. No other Pokemon in the metagame is currently close to having all these combined attributes to the same effect of Greninja, and I believe that its presence is holding back the evolution of the metagame. And, while Greninja has its perhaps greatest matchup when facing balanced teams, I am willing to state that all team archetypes suffer noticably from Greninja's presence.

I've been hearing a lot of people say "Greninja needs to be banned, it is so anti-offense". I don't completely disagree with them, but I'd rather say Greninja is anti-balance. Offensive teams can afford running multiple ways of dealing with (revengekilling) Greninja without creating redundancy, becuase of the offfensive team structure. Greninja is still incredibly annoying to deal with, don't get me wrong, but offensive teams are one of the team archetypes that fare /well/ against it. Balanced teams, however, have a structure that simply doesn't have enough space to run solid answers to Greninja, as they are generally lacking options otherwise. Running multiple Choice Scarf or multiple defensive checks to one Pokemon is just straight up impossible on balance, which is why Greninja is such a nuisance. Nothing is capable of switching into all the variants of Greninja, which forces the team playing against it to scout for every option. Say, your Ferrothorn has switched into a Ice Beam and lost 40% of its HP. What do you do now? Do you switch out in fear of HP Fire or Low Kick, or do you risk staying in, banking on the opponent not running one of these options? The best option is probably switching out, as the probability that one of them are run is high. The Greninja user loses little to nothing from this; Greninja just gets of damage off on the opposing team, losing only what recoil Life Orb causes. The standard set of Ice Beam | Dark Pulse | Gunk Shot | Low Kick has coverage for it vast majority of the metagame, and has close to no viable switch-ins, especially not on balanced teams. The power in Greninja's ability and coverage also gives it the ability to pressure stall teams, just by being in the tier. Surprisingly enough, with a much bigger pool of Pokemon to choose from, there are very few Pokemon capable of taking it on. Some of the options are Specially Defensive Mega Sableye, which is, in my opinion, a waste of a great Pokemon. Having this liability which is Greninja is currently limiting the freedom in teambuiling, which ultimately means the evolution of the metagame. We don't want the metagame to settle, stopping its development, like the case was with Aegislash.

Some of the arguments against the banning of Greninja that have been stated in this thread are the following: "Greninja is very frail, so it isn't hard to revengekill", and "Greninja is OHKO'd by Conkeldurr's Mach Punch, and it cant OHKO back". The thing is, how do you get your revengekiller in? You have to sack a Pokemon, or let your revengekiller get severely weakened. None of these are profitable for your team. Also, mind you, Greninja can always switch out when faced against something capable of revengekilling it, which means that the next time Greninja comes in, you have to sack another Pokemon. Thanks to its Speed, Greninja's frailty doesn't really count in for it. "Greninja has 4MSS". This is another misconception; having a lot of viable moveslot options isn't neceassarily the same as having 4MSS. Four Move-Slot Syndrome is when a Pokemon has more mandatory moves than it has move slots. This is not Greninja's case; it just has multiple viable options, of which lets it beat different defensive checks. This is not a hinderance at all. All in all, I think the metagame would benefit from getting rid of Greninja. Its amazing combination of traits lets it pressure all playstyles, some more than others. Dealing with it is incredibly hard, being forced to run Choice Scarf or priority users is putting the metagame's evolution at halt. I'd like to see Greninja BANNED.

 

[EmeraldEnchanter]

Okay, after running some calcs I determined that the only viable pokemon in the tier who avoid the 2hko (w/ SR) from the standard set (Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Hydro, Gunk Shot, 40 atk, 216 SpAtk) are chansey, empoleon, ferrothorn, manaphy, porygon2, suicune, tentacruel and alomomola. Now considering a set of 80 atk, 176 spatk and a moveset of Low Kick, Grass Knot, HP fire and Extrasensory the pokemon who avoid the 3hko from both sets are chansey, manaphy and porygon2. Chansey cannot threaten anything back and manaphy gets worn down unless it has rest. So now we have a couple of options to deal with gren. Run a scarfer on every team. Run strong priority on every team and hope gren doesn't resist it. Run manaphy (with Hp investment) or Porygon2 on every team. Run one of the other pokemon and hope it lacks coverage. Or finally, sac a pokemon everytime you see it. Personally I dislike having this choice forced on me.

 

[master_marshmallow]

I think Greninja's move pool is less of a factor than people are making it out to be.
According to the statistics, 2 out of every three of them run the same set of Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Hydro Pump, and Gunk Shot.

One of those moves bring swapped out for Extrasensory, Grass Knot, or HP Fire doesn't really make it that scary of a threat to prepare for. Low Kick I believe was shown to be much better in the Ubers meta because of the whole size thing, and it actually doesn't hit many opponents in OU that are worth hitting like Ferrothorn because of Iron Barbs and Life Orb hitting you for dumb recoil damage.

I think we need to see the December statistics before we can objectively look at the move pool as a legitimate reason to ban or keep.

 

[AM]

I think Greninja's move pool is less of a factor than people are making it out to be.
According to the statistics, 2 out of every three of them run the same set of Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Hydro Pump, and Gunk Shot.

One of those moves bring swapped out for Extrasensory, Grass Knot, or HP Fire doesn't really make it that scary of a threat to prepare for. Low Kick I believe was shown to be much better in the Ubers meta because of the whole size thing, and it actually doesn't hit many opponents in OU that are worth hitting like Ferrothorn because of Iron Barbs and Life Orb hitting you for dumb recoil damage.

I think we need to see the December statistics before we can objectively look at the move pool as a legitimate reason to ban or keep.

Does this even matter?

Usage statistics hold so little weight in elaborating on a Pokemons capabilities when the ladder for the majority is a bandwagon of people using the same move. In tournament play or at least higher levels of play all these options that are available is what is going to be used and as such brings us back to the unpredictably and capability arguments. Also these usage statistics fail to address Greninja's adaptation over the coming months anyways. You can see these in posts from the past month in how Greninja has adapted or if you've been aware just from a practical use. Sets went from Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Extrasensory with the dominance of Keldeo and M-Venusaur on teams to Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Grass Knot, HP Fire when people realized that Gyarados and its mega blocked the former set while HP Fire capitalized on the prevalence of Ferrothorn. As time has gone on these variations came to fruition based on the tiers direction and now we come to Low Kick, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Gunk Shot. Then people assumed they were safe using Keldeo and Tentacruel as a check and now we see people running Extrasensory to hit those. It goes on and on and it will continue to be like this if Greninja were to stay.

Greninja's ability to adapt is not healthy and you don't need usage statistics to see this.

 

[ohgeedubs]

I think Greninja's move pool is less of a factor than people are making it out to be.
According to the statistics, 2 out of every three of them run the same set of Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Hydro Pump, and Gunk Shot.

One of those moves bring swapped out for Extrasensory, Grass Knot, or HP Fire doesn't really make it that scary of a threat to prepare for. Low Kick I believe was shown to be much better in the Ubers meta because of the whole size thing, and it actually doesn't hit many opponents in OU that are worth hitting like Ferrothorn because of Iron Barbs and Life Orb hitting you for dumb recoil damage.

I think we need to see the December statistics before we can objectively look at the move pool as a legitimate reason to ban or keep.

I really dislike arguments saying that "X is uncommon on Y" therefore you can be sorta be prepared for it if you expect the most common moves, and that X option is a non-factor. This breeds the kind of thinking that leads people to think some option is bad just because it doesn't fit most teams. I remember arguing in the competitive tutoring room a month ago that hydro wasn't MANDATORY on ninja, and even AM sternly stated "No, you HAVE to have it." Two room voices literally told me to shut up when all I was saying is that Hydro wasn't as mandatory as everyone was making it out to be.

This type of mindset in talking about what moves and sets should be expected / are viable is fucking toxic and there are a couple of reasons why. For one, less standard sets are often more effective in tournament play and high ladder play because a) They clearly put thought into the set to best synergize with their team rather than lazily taking the set from the OU analysis and b) because unexpected sets will make it more difficult for your opponent to formulate a gameplan around. If they more or less know all of your sets, aren't you at a serious disadvantage?

And if there's any Pokemon that is king of versatile moves for its team, it's Greninja. U-turn, spikes, toxic spikes, hidden power fire, hidden power grass, are all very viable option that will screw you over if you are simply expected standard ninja, but that get swept under the carpet with people who bandwagon on the most popular sets saying, "Well who the hell runs spikes anymore."

So maybe if you can know the most common ninja set, it's not broken in ladder, since all you care about is winning overall for points. But when you need to decisively win vs. an opponent in tournament, then you need to start worrying about Ninja's wider array of options, and need to consider if it's even possible to semi-reliably deal with it with your team structure.

 

[master_marshmallow]

Tournament level play doesn't really apply to us here does it?

I'm pretty sure usage statistics are a very good way of predicting safe switch ins on Greninja. For example, if I switch in Rotom and absorb an attack then Volt Switch out to my priority user, then I have effectively checked Greninja without sacrificing anyone as the populous claims is mandatory.

Because he is strong doesn't make him unhealthy. Paying attention to meta trends is part of the game. It's not like everyone is going to be running the exact same sets in a year from now.

Another thing to worry about is what happens when he is gone, and 110 becomes the new unbeatable speed tier? We are going to end up suspecting Gallade, Gross, and others all because we got rid of the best way to deal with them.

Saying that usage stats don't matter is a joke. Saying that paying attention to them makes you a bad player kinda invalidates your opinion because paying attention to what is being used is how the meta is even formed in the first place.

 

[haunter]

Can we like avoid this recurring, boring and useless ladder vs. tournaments dichotomy? Yes, tournaments level play matters to us, as much as ladder level play. We make tiers for each and every format we support on Smogon. To end this dispute: yes, usage statistics (especially from the high end of the ladder) definitely matter and are the only objective parameter we can use to evaluate the impact of any given Pokémon on the metagame however, they're not the only deciding factor. Tournaments represent the metagame at its highest level, so experience from top tournament players is always welcome and shouldn't be dismissed only cause it can't be measured via usage statistics. Please don't make me read any more nonsense on this issue.

 

[Siggu]

Another thing to worry about is what happens when he is gone, and 110 becomes the new unbeatable speed tier? We are going to end up suspecting Gallade, Gross, and others all because we got rid of the best way to deal with them.

"Greatest speed tiers" (100 in Gen IV and 108 in Gen V, for example) have always existed and they have never been unhealthy in itself. Specially not in this generation when priority is in even more demand than ever before.

 

[Roylund]

Tournament level play doesn't really apply to us here does it?

I'm pretty sure usage statistics are a very good way of predicting safe switch ins on Greninja. For example, if I switch in Rotom and absorb an attack then Volt Switch out to my priority user, then I have effectively checked Greninja without sacrificing anyone as the populous claims is mandatory.

Because he is strong doesn't make him unhealthy. Paying attention to meta trends is part of the game. It's not like everyone is going to be running the exact same sets in a year from now.

Another thing to worry about is what happens when he is gone, and 110 becomes the new unbeatable speed tier? We are going to end up suspecting Gallade, Gross, and others all because we got rid of the best way to deal with them.

Saying that usage stats don't matter is a joke. Saying that paying attention to them makes you a bad player kinda invalidates your opinion because paying attention to what is being used is how the meta is even formed in the first place.

The thing about "paying attention to meta trends" is that Greninja also pays attention to them... and adapts. After the Tentacruel hype I started seeing more Ninjas running Extrasensory to counter him and even then I had to be scared of the ones still running the 'standard' Ice/Gunk/Dark/Hydro or Low Kick. I bet if we weren't in the suspect phase and people started running more Empoleon to keep Greninja at bay then Low Kick would become more popular.

In my opinion, Greninja shouldn't be banned just because of his speed tier, 'coverage', versatility, or easiness to slap on most teams but because he stifles the teambuilding process and is unhealthy for the metagame. The argument that it chokes balance has already been thrown out and I see no points that refute it, is this something we want? Greninja keeps away many playstyles and Pokemon that would otherwise be viable and calls for very passive answers to it. Even the more offensive answers such as Scarfed 'mons or Priority will (usually) keep you locked in one move which is very easy to take advantage of.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Then that's the next question, is forcing priority to be required bad for the game or just a result of the evolving meta?

Not just for ninja, but anything that sets up for speed like a DD user, it's a if ninja was the only fast threat out there. The meta forcing priory is not inherently bad for the game unless we decide that all forms of speed are bad, but then that would be us trying to turn OU into UU or something similar to achieve a meta like the glory days.

Don't base decisions on the glory days.

I honestly don't know what you're complaining about. In case you forgot, even if we ban Greninja, there are plenty of viable scarfers that are even faster than it, so your concern of priority being forced on us is arguably quite groundless. Moreover, if that's what happens, then so be it. We don't keep known toxic elements of a meta just to prevent other potentially toxic elements from being broken, and we don't keep known toxic elements because we might end up with a particular meta. If Greninja is banned and Mega Gallade and Mega Metagross become unhealthy, we'll get rid of them. If the meta settles and priority users and blazingly fast scarfers become needed, then unless there is something about the meta that is particularly toxic that causes this, we'll likely just deal with it. While decisions shouldn't be based on "glory days", they shouldn't be made because you're afraid that the meta will somehow become worse either. That sort of logic just leads to us apathetically settling for a cesspool rather than making an attempt at cleaning up the meta and making it more fun.

 

[xbombr]

The only way in which Greninja has 4MSS is if you want to run u-turn because you'll have to give up some other coverage to gain that utility.

Everything else Gren has is a coverage option that can be used to patch up holes in your team.

Most of the arguments about Gren that I'm reading here are based on raw damage output and speed, but people seem to be forgetting that in the X/Y meta, Gren was good as a fast u-turner. Even if someone sent in something that could deal with Gren in X/Y he outsped the non-scarfers of the tier and could U-Turn out of danger into a more appropriate counter. The same can be applied to ORAS since there weren't many new fast threats introduced that could shut down the u-turn game. The move tutors simply allowed Greninja to be more easily slapped on a team without having to think about supporting it since fighting or poison coverage for it had to be on a supporting pokemon. Sure gunk shot allows it to deal with fairies and low kick with bulky normals like Chansey, but in X/Y Gren could just U-Turn out into something that threatened fairies or had fighting coverage anyway.

My basic argument here is that even if you take away gunk shot or low kick, Gren still has u-turn to make sure his counters can't deal with him.

Of course, the u-turning Greninja from X/Y had a team built around him, and most people seem to have an issue with Greninja being slapped on teams not built around him and just tearing stuff up regardless.

Greninja was already incredibly powerful and borderline broken in X/Y, but with the option of placing coverage on him that he had to u-turn to get before, Greninja gained a boost in power that pushed him over the top and made him totally unpredictable. His options are not an example of 4MSS, they're an example of unpredictability (similar to something like Mega Lucario who had a wide array of physical and special moves it could run). Many Pokemon who may have been able to switch in during X/Y and force a u-turn/hard switch are no longer able to do so because they can be crippled if not outright killed by Greninja's new coverage options.

 

[Mix]

Okay, so I finished getting the reqs, and studied a bit the ladder, I would like to talk with you guys about my experiences on the ladder for me.
Without greninja I noticed an incredible rise on stall teams, I suppose that was obvious, the major wallbreaker got kicked out, so everyone wants to see how stall fares in the meta now, I also noticed many teams with belly drum azumarill.
Come ORAS Azumarill was nerfed now that Greninja had Gunk Shot, but with Greni out of the way azumaril can finally test out belly drum with knock off, something that he couldn't do before.
Truthfully I believe Greninja should go, his versatility, coupled with unbelievable speed granted him no truly safe switch ins, and was a major killer of Hyper Offense due to its ubiquos nature, and truly Low Kick and Gunk Shot were the icing on the cake

save me :[ NOT (Greninja) @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 40 Atk / 212 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Hydro Pump/ Low Kick
- Ice Beam/Hidden Power [Fire]
- Dark Pulse/Low Kick/Spikes

I think that Hydro Pump should still be considered as a choice, in order to 2hko most megasableye's variants, other than that we can see how Greninja is versatile, and truly, 4th MSS doesn't make him any less dangerous, it just gives you the paranoia that said Greninja could have this moves, scouting on every matches, especially if you're planning to use an hyper offense teams isn't possible in any ways.
Low Kick has gained a great deal of approval, allowing Greninja to stop Empoleon and Porygon2 while also giving him a reliable move against tyranitar, chansey sdef heatran etc.
While Mew was nerfed in ORAS due to Mega Sableye and Heatran rise Greninja can still use Dark Pulse to defeat bulky psychic types without too much worries, really the way he can be customized in order to beat specific threats without you being able to do much does not help him one bit now.

 

[Flarowak]

I'm pretty close to meeting reqs, and after my time testing I have to say...as much as I hate it, Greninja has to go. The meta is just way too clean right now. All playstyles are pretty viable for the most part, and with Greninja gone offensive players don't have to play on their toes anywhere near as much.

 

[Myzozoa]

My thoughts on Greninja:

Honestly, I disagree that Greninja became broken because of Gunk Shot and Low Kick, I believe Greninja was broken in ORAS just using Hp Grass+Spikes+Ice Beam+Hydro Pump. Sure Chansey counters you, but if you're using offense how hard is it so switch into Chansey? Porygon2? When they heal you can put up some Spikes for later. Seems good to me.

Now with the new moves, Greninja is more of a crap shoot to switch into even for bulkier teams. As has already been noted, offensive teams are likely going to have to sac whatever is in when Greninja finds a chance to get in, but I think they might be the most capable teams to deal with Greninja consistently because they actually run priority moves. One really common pairing that was used on the OU Ladder was Greninja+Talonflame, the idea is that Greninja either gets a bunch of free kills or possibly lures the things that could switch into Talonflame, for example the set I listed above is all about killing Rotom-w, one of the better counters to Talonflame. It also does 'normal' things such as taking advantage of free turns/getting autokills from sacs. If they switch out to something weakened as a sacrifice, you predict and put up a layer of spikes before killing whatever it is that they want to sac, making it easier for your other dudes to get kills. Greninja has a ton of utility, basically it gives you any 3 STABS you need and spikes for hazards, you can even run u-turn if your heart desires even more utility. Thus, there is almost no reason not to run Greninja except for on full stall and baton pass.

I will be voting for ban (and I already got my reqs), with my only hesitation being that Talonflame might still be 'broken' even after its best partner is gone. Sure it will be slightly harder to build good offensive teams (use Latios, Keldeo, or Thundurus instead), and thats the only reason to vote against a ban: you're feeling insecure about your building without Greninja as an option. It's kind of pathetic to watch people argue against a Greninja ban as such.

 

[Clone]

Ignoring the mostly (keyword here, there are definitely some convincing arguments here; they're just in the minority :/) terrible arguments in this thread I'll post my thoughts.

Ever since I first started hearing complaints about Greninja when ORAS came out, I still held the views that I did during late XY where I found Greninja to be extremely good, but not overpowered. As time went on, however, I started to see how Greninja had an unhealthy presence in the metagame. I found that many of my balance. Teams had to be reworked to not be 6-0ed by Greninja (and by 6-0ed I mean 6-0ed with minimal team support like VoltTurn and rox n shit), which was not fun as they were otherwise solid versus the rest of the metagame. Whenever I was making a balanced squad I always had to deviate from my original ideas simply because I found that many common cores I used were shat on by the frog. Even simple FWG cores like tran / bro / Celebi | ches, which handled a lot of the metagame, were falling to the standard Greninja set of Low Kick / Ice Beam / Dark Pulse / Gunk Shot.

And that's when my views on Greninja started to change. I found myself resorting to hyper offense more often than not, simply because the playstyle allowed me to dictate how matches would go from turn one. That might sound fine and dandy, but HO never was my favorite play style, and even ignoring that HO is really match up reliant. I used HO to improve my matchup against Greninja (ironically, the team I use doesn't even have Greninja, lol). I had to resort to a play style that I wasn't entirely comfortable with, simply because of one mon. Hell, for a time I was even using stall, simply because I hated seeing Greninja in the team preview and knowing that I'm in for a tough battle (btw I fucking hate stall, which goes to say something at the very least). However, this leads to my next point, which as a heads up, might seem a bit confusing at first.

Despite what I said above, I still do not hold the view that Greninja is overpowered. I say this because as I stated above, HO and stall both match up well against him, contrary to popular belief. HO May not have switch ins for him, but HO doesn't have switch ins for a lot of things. HO just has switch ins for mons that are very common and somewhat exploitable, such as Latios or Scarf Lando T. Hyper offense is an extremely high risk high reward play style that is hit or miss, and Greninja doesn't change that more than any other mon. I'd even argue that Mega Lopunny is worse for HO due to Fake Out, Scrappy, and an even higher speed tier. The other playstyle I mentioned was stall, which simply does not give a fuck about Greninja in the slightest. Chansey is a staple of stall and counters all non CB Low a Kick variants of Greninja (lol pls don't run that unless u like giving out free wins). No matter what anyone says, Greninja has no way of breaking 252 / 252+ Chansey that is played competently. Any competent player can beat a Greninja if all it can do is 3HKO the mon you send in. Despite her passiveness, she won't lose to Greninja. And even then, SpDef Mega Sableye is a thing (and trust me it's really good as it handles other things than ninja!!!), as well as Tentacruel, Alomomomomomomola, Mega Venusaur, and Suicune. All of these are common / relatively common stall mons that beat ninja and when paired up with other stall mons, fare well against the rest of the meta. Greninja can't break these mons and will kill itself through LO recoil before it can crit its way through according to the law of probability.

One last thing before I wrap this up: balance isn't helpless against Greninja. Despite what I said above about having to give up playing balance, I've still seen balance squads fare well against Greninja. Teams that feature mons like AV Conk, alomomomola, Bulky Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, and Chansey all have ways of beating the frog. It may be difficult, but the possibility is still there. It just takes creative teambuilding and the ability to make plays. I struggle with Greninja when playing Balance because I lack the creative teambuilding skills that other, better players possess. Regardless, Greninja is still a threat to balance and is definitely centralizing to the tier.

Now, that last sentence is important because that is where my stance on the issue is and where my vote will lie once I achieve reqs. As anti ban as this post may seem, I still hold the view that Greninja should be banned from the OU tier. I do not find him OP. I find him unhealthy. I find him unhealthy to the point where I feel pressured to play with teams I would otherwise use as little as possible. (Such as stall or some HO teams) just so I don't feel insanely pressured whenever I see Greninja in the team preview. Greninja limits teambuilding and limits it in ways where certain cores and mons simply do not work because he singlehandedly renders them obsolete, where they would otherwise fare well against the rest of the metagame. My experience on the suspect ladder confirms this, as from the games I have played so far I have enjoyed the tier a lot more with Greninja absent from it.

Greninja, your my second favorite mon, and it pains me to say this, but it's time for you to join your fellow starter (Blaziken) in the Ubers tier, as OU simply is not ready for you yet. I have to vote ban.

 

[Aaron Pinkman]

After testing with 2 accounts a huge variety of teams and both close to reqs, I am hoping to see Greninja getting banned. Am not going to talk about its amazing stats especially speed and movepool but am going to talk about the metagame without it and like alot of people had said, right now without Greninja the ladder is more enjoyable and you can see more variety of teams instead of the most offensive pure teams, now you see more balanced or bulky offensive teams. With the Greninja ban now there are some pokemon that can shine like Pidgeot which is a good pokemon but the speed is a problem. Sadly now a days OU has had something to have every team either have a check or counter Greninja which is like what happened with M-Salamence. So in my opinion theres no excuse for not banning Greninja. BAN

 

[preserve]

There are a few things in here that I feel I need to respond too. Firstly some people are not giving greninja's frailty enough credit. It's frailness it's a huge deal that pressures it to come in safely. You can use a slow u-turn or volt switcher to get a free switch but you will just be taking damage on that pokemon. Unless you u turn or volt switch while your opponent is switching, you aren't getting a free switch without something on your team getting at least damaged in some way. It's also key to bring up that switch initiative works both ways.

Whether or not it has 4MMS with every move greninja uses to adapt to its former checks and counters, it loses a coverage move. Not that long ago I tried to make a greninja set with Gunk Shot, Low kick and Ice beam because I heard that should be the standard set now. I was thinking of a coverage move for the last slot and decided to use extrasensory and realized pokes like scizor and mew walled me, then decided for perhaps hydro or dark pulse and I realized a bunch of other pokemon walled its set and needed specific pokemon to help out with its lack of coverage moves meaning it needed support.

There are many pokes that can check/counter this thing despite people saying it isn't an argument but the community is very biased in favor of balance. When stall was commonly described as dead no one was trying to revive it from what I can remember.

 

[Morningstar]

There are a few things in here that I feel I need to respond too. Firstly some people are not giving greninja's frailty enough credit. It's frailness it's a huge deal that pressures it to come in safely. You can use a slow u-turn or volt switcher to get a free switch but you will just be taking damage on that pokemon. Unless you u turn or volt switch while your opponent is switching, you aren't getting a free switch without something on your team getting at least damaged in some way. It's also key to bring up that switch initiative works both ways.

If it was slower, then the frailty would be a dealbreaker, but since it's fast enough to land 1HKO with a super effective move, it's frailty is a non-issue

Whether or not it has 4MMS with every move greninja uses to adapt to its former checks and counters, it loses a coverage move. Not that long ago I tried to make a greninja set with Gunk Shot, Low kick and Ice beam because I heard that should be the standard set now. I was thinking of a coverage move for the last slot and decided to use extrasensory and realized pokes like scizor and mew walled me, then decided for perhaps hydro or dark pulse and I realized a bunch of other pokemon walled its set and needed specific pokemon to help out with its lack of coverage moves meaning it needed support.

Except there's more than just one pokemon on a team. Greninja can cover a team's weakness or a team can cover for greninja's lack of coverage, either way if it gets walled it could switch into a pokemon with an advantage over that pokemon and cut open path for Greninja to continue its reign of terror.