Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

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I support Gardevoir to D-rank, its not the best mon, but really cool one.
The thing I like about her is the utility she can along her nice coverage.
She can use destiny bond to take down opposing team mon, trick for stall or healing wish to supportof other team member. Also given the fact that most people except its mega, it can suprise a lot of teams.
 

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First page? Sweet! Time to post my reasoning for a few noms. Before anyone calls me crazy, I dont think MSab deserves S rank right now.
See, Stall is amazing. Hell, I can go and say its probably the best playstyle rn. MSableye is a staple on stall and deserves that. Sadly, I just dont think this guy lives to its fullest compatibility rn. Every team runs some sort of counter/check to MSab, and Dark types shit on it in general. Examples are:

MGyara
Unaware Clefable
Mlopunny
MDiancie
Mega Gardevoir
MAltaria (obviously cant switch into WoW)
MAbsol (Cant do much to it even with its frail defenses)
Azu (again, cant switch into WoW)

There is more, but thats probably a decent amount to help the case. Lets also mention MSab's horrible Speed stat, and while that doesnt matter for Stall, it does for Recover and WoW. He has nothing to increase his speed stat at all. Losing Prankster wasnt the best either, cause now with its shit speed it cant have prio. Magic Bounce, however, is a great ability to be noted. See, I honestly think this guy doesnt have the best fitting into the meta rn, and A+ rank is not a horrible rank at all. Shit like MZard X, MZard Y, MAltaria, MLop (well for now), Mega Gallade and Gardevoir, TFlame, MScizor, and Bisharp dwell there so its really not a bad spot imo. When the meta shifts from Fairy types and HO kind of stuff, this guy is going to S rank in that case.
Mega altaria's special set can switch into WoW
 

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Alright I'll say it, I don't like where S rank is or where it's heading. I know this sounds bad, but I hate when people refer to the definition of a rank when trying to say it should be that rank. This mostly stems from the definitions of the rankings being complete bull. What makes an S rank Pokemon? Well in my opinion they're the best Pokemon in the tier. But what makes something the best? Well I see it more from a teambuilding perspective than anything else. Pokemon that influence the decisions that I have to make when building a team and have more natural "pull" on the metagame are what makes S ranks. I couldn't care less if they can sweep a majority of the meta if I never have to think about it. Hydreigon can break all my balance teams. Does that make it S? No because it's not common and not splashable (meaning it can't be used on just any team). It's not a relevant enough mon to be S rank. Same goes for Thundurus. There are very few times when I think "man I am just so weak to Thundurus and I need a specific check to it." And that's because on its own it isn't a super influential Pokemon. So yes, it's not something that should be S rank and I agree with its dropping. But Latios? Now that is one of the absolute first things I have checked whenever I build a team. It's powerful, it's fast, and most of all, it's fucking everywhere. Every team ACTIVELY needs a Latios check, possibly two or more. Every team ACTIVELY needs a Landorus-T check. But does every team ACTIVELY need a Mega Lopunny check? Honestly it sort of just comes with checking other physical attackers...that's not very S rank to me. I mean, if I'm weak to Ground types and I throw a Landorus-T on my team, I've just checked Mega Lopunny without even trying. Same thing happens with Slowbro or Gliscor or Mew. Any of these Pokemon can be put on my team to check (imo) much more prevelant threats, but also naturally do well against Lopunny. So honestly I don't usually give it a second thought. It certainly isn't near Latios on my "things I need answers for" list. And this is all excluding the fact that it's a Mega. Mega Pokemon by definition are never splashable. Mega Pokemon, in my opinion, have to be like "oh my god crazy insanely influential" in order to be S rank, ala XY Xard. Mega Sableye fits this to a T, that thing is incredibly influential, it just blows back teams that are unprepared for it. Lopunny might do work against certain teams, but ask yourself this: are those teams really weak to Lopunny? Or are they just weak to fast physical attackers? Could a Mega Gallade or a Scarf Lando-T or a Banded Terrakion do the same thing? I think in most cases you'll find the answer is yes. And that is why I don't think Lopunny is S rank. Of course I'm pulling all of this out of my ass because this isn't following the definition given to us in the OP, so it really doesn't matter what I think. But if you think about what the thread really is and what it's meant to do (be a guide for newer users to show them not only a threatlist but a threatlist that lists things in order of their necessity to prepare for in team building), I think you'll agree that the way I look at S rank isn't too absurd.

Anyway long story short if I had my way, S rank would be:

Clefable
Greninja
Landorus-T
Latios
Mega Sableye

These are by far the most influential Pokemon in my opinion, and nothing else even comes close (well if Greninja is banned, Keldeo could take its spot but I'm not 100% on that).
I strongly disagree with Latios being in S, the notion that M-Lopunny shouldn't be in S, and Clefable being in S to a slight degree. These definitions set in the guidelines are exactly what they are, a guideline. They're not concrete in stone and it still comes down to how they would function from a practical standpoint as well. By your logic we would have to put Talonflame in S rank because EVERY single new player thinks it's broken when the more experienced players know this isn't true. Obviously you would prepare for Latios when it comes to team-building but to the point where it's such a burden and puts a huge constraint on team-building is quite frankly false. This was elaborated in the last thread but Latios is much easier to prepare for and teams can get by with a variety of checks to it such as Scarf Tyranitar, Weavile, Scarf Lando-T, Thundurus, Ferrothorn, Clefable, just to name a few. It is one of the better A+ mons but it is definitely not a metagame defining force on the level of S from a much more practical scenario. Just cause Latios is on a bunch of teams doesn't necessarily mean it fits the criteria of S.

Lopunny can put in work against all teams. Obviously if you just go off of that one set everyone uses at first with dual STAB, ice punch, fake out, then yeah Lopunny isn't going to look like much of a threat. Then you get into more legitimate sets that pulls its weight against various archetypes such as Sub / PuP, Heal Bell Drain Punch sets, Sub Pass, Healing Wish, etc. Being Lopunny weak =/= being physical attack weak so no M-Gallade, Scarf Lando-T, and Banded Terrakion don't do the same. M-Gallade falls under a lower speed tier that mitigates its role into a wall-breaker more than anything along with a subpar if not terrible ability, typing that is just mediocre from a defensive standpoint, and because of M-Sableye's presence is forced to run only a couple of variants of sets because that's all it can realistically pull off in the meta. Lando-T by your definition is S rank indeed, but it also comes back to the fact that practically it is definitely a meta-game defining threat if we take into account not only its Scarf set but the small variances you can pull off with Lando-T such as Double Dance for example. Banded Terrakion can not do the same as Lopunny it's a wall-breaker locked into a move so not exactly sure where you're drawing this comparison from because it doesn't even come close to the versatility of M-Lopunny. Slapping a ground type on your team or Slowbro is not an M-Lopunny answer. These lose to PuP sets which are very efficient right now regardless so sure you might go ahead and say M-Lopunny isn't exactly defining on the level of M-Gross and M-Sableye but it is in no way not a threat to teams and the idea you just slap Lando-T on your team and that's how you handle M-Lopunny is an illusion.

Clefable I only slightly disagree because while it has a high versatility and can practically put in a lot of weight, think tele v bloo, I don't agree it's that difficult to check albeit a tad bit difficult if you just screw up. I know I talked with a good amount of people on the subject but most of them either emphasized the strong points with little emphasis to negatives or basically agreed on my stance so that's a topic that can be discussed if provided good enough reasons and not shitty excuses along the lines of "I let Clefable set up too much, it's definitely S", exaggerated but you get the point of making it seem better than it already is.

I don't know if this was on purpose from your list or not but you're missing M-Gross.
 
Well now that contrary serperior is released.. I think it deserves atleast A rank for now.

I would never make such a huge jump in rankings like this but this thing is a monster..

It obliterates through stall on it's own. The only thing on stall that walls it is unaware clefable.. and even that doesn't like taking a knock off or glare.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Even chansey is used for setup fodder.

+6 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 390-460 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Talonflames, beedrills, etc can't reliably counter it either. They can't afford to switch into lure sets with glare or HP rock. Same goes for heatran and HP ground or ferro and HP fire.

Serperior is just overall a very pressuring pokemon right now. I think it deserves atleast somewhere in the A ranks for right now until the meta adapts to it.. this thing just breaks through stall like nothing. The only things they reliably counter serperior is metagross (glare) mega venasaur (glare) and noivern (psst.. glare).
 
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Okay really
The thing just came out and you're promoting it that high? We've had it for one day; and I really doubt it's that good that it can be fit onto most every team with little cost
Understandable logic, but from what I've seen so far, this thing is a pretty big threat to stall. HO it struggles a little bit but still can easily work around it. B+ rank would be more idealish I suppose because team support is needed but otherwise it's pretty difficult to counter outside revenge killing.
 
Ok I have alot to say, so expect more posts but I want to start by saying that no one should be nominating serperior for any rank just yet. We have not had NEARLY enough time to see how it operates in this meta and people are already putting it in the same category as mons that have proven their rank over months. (honestly if I were to rank it right now it would be somewhere in C rank, but idk yet)

In response to @Halycon post, I think he brought up an interesting point that is worth discussing. I dont have too much time to go into it right now, but I disagree that just because every team needs to be prepared for/consider a pokemon, that that mon deserves S rank, otherwise rotom-w would be S rank just because of how notable his presence is in the tier, even though he isnt the best pokemon. I am obviously giving a very simplified example, but that is the first thing I thought when I read that post. However Clefable for S rank is something I will talk about later that actually takes what halcyon was saying into heavier consideration. So I agree with his position somewhat, just not in certain areas. An interesting point nonetheless.
 
Clefable is in an awkward position right now. On the one hand it checks M-Sableye, one of the most metagame defining Pokemon but on the other hand, it is deadweight against M-Metagross which is running rampant right now.

Clefable should stay A+.
 
I definitely agree with Notorious on Clefable staying A+ because of M-Metagross.

Clefable has always been on that fine line of S and A+ mainly because of its base stats. However that doesn't seem to be as much as a problem as before. Its M-Metagross's prominence which I feel is keeping it away.
 

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Well now that contrary serperior is released.. I think it deserves atleast A rank for now.

I would never make such a huge jump in rankings like this but this thing is a monster..

It obliterates through stall on it's own. The only thing on stall that walls it is unaware clefable.. and even that doesn't like taking a knock off or glare.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Even chansey is used for setup fodder.

+6 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 390-460 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Talonflames, beedrills, etc can't reliably check it either. They can't afford to switch into lure sets with glare or HP rock. Same goes for heatran and HP ground or ferro and HP fire.

Serperior is just overall a very pressuring pokemon right now. I think it deserves atleast somewhere in the A ranks for right now until the meta adapts to it.. this thing just breaks through stall like nothing. The only things they reliably counter serperior is metagross (glare) mega venasaur (glare) and noivern (psst.. glare).

Not to be pedantic or anything, but Talon, Beedrill, etc might not be able to reliably counter Serp, but they can reliably check it; each one outspeeds and destroys it.
 
Clefable is in an awkward position right now. On the one hand it checks M-Sableye, one of the most metagame defining Pokemon but on the other hand, it is deadweight against M-Metagross which is running rampant right now.

Clefable should stay A+.
Dead weight? that is just plain wrong.
MegaGross comes in expecting to mega evolve on Clefable and gets nailed by flamethrower:

4 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 136-162 (45 - 53.6%)

Even after megaing its bulk isn't that much better:
0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 108-128 (35.7 - 42.3%)

Its far from deadweight.
Metagross can only switch in safely a couple times into clefable a poke its supposed to beat. Sure you got to predict the Metagross switch in, but anyone using clefable should have a Metagross switch in.

A poke doesn't have to 6-0 the whole meta to be S-rank.
 

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In my opinion, Latios and maybe Thundurus need to move back down to A+ rank, and mega lopunny should either stay where it is or move up to S-rank. Latios isn't as good as he used to be, as many of the new megas and more common mons to take down those megas can outspeed latios and take it down. Also, contrary serperior was just released, so the 113 speed tier can outspeed latios and KO with a +2 dragon pulse after rocks about half of the time, further hindering Latios. Thundurus isn't as good anymore because one of the main reasons for him being S-rank was that he can go before Greninja and paralyze it with twave and cripple it for the rest of the game. Also, landorus being one of the most common Pokemon in the meta makes it so that it can't spam twave freely as scarfed lando can come in and KO it. Also, contrary serp with glare aguably outclasses thundurus as an offensive twaver, as its method of paralysis is unblockable and it has a more desirable speed tier. On the subject of contrary serp, it can outspeed Thundurus and one shot it after rocks with HP rock 90% of the time. Lastly, mega Lopunny is an amazingly versatile mon that can fill a veriety of roles because it has 2 slots for any moves that it wants to have because it gets perfect neutral coverage with its scrappy STABs. It can run healing wish for healing weakened sweepers after lopunny is no longer needed, fake out to get a free mega evolution and have revenge killing, PuP to set up on weakened Pokemon while still doing damage, ice punch and fire punch for hitting more mons super effective like lando and scizor that would wall it otheriwse. Lastly, I think that serperior should be nominated for B- rank because of contrary. It is arguably the best offensive paralysis spreader in the tier because it is faster than Thundurus, and it has an unblockable method of paralysis. Contrary Leaf Storm allows it to gain power very quickly and be able to knock out some very strong mons and it has a great speed tier. However, Serperior's special movepool consists of leaf storm, giga drain, hidden power, and dragon pulse, so it is so bear that its purely offensive sets are extremely predictable and it has to run a partial support set so that the opposing team doesn't know exactly what it is running. Based on its movepool, unaware Clefable can wall it and Chansey can cripple it with toxic and twave as well as being able to wall it if it isn't at +6 special attack. Lastly, it has terrible offensive stats, so it does paltry damage before it gets many boosts up and can be two shotted by a powerful offensive mon if it isn't careful, and it is forced to switch out and reset all of the boosts it has accumulated if a fast mega than can KO it comes in. It is walled based on its moveset by popular mons; heatran if it doesn't have hp ground, scizor if it doesn't run HP fire, and Metagross if it isn't running HP fire. All in all, I think that serperior is a decent threat in the meta that is deserving of a place in the b ranks due to several positive traits but flaws that prevent it becoming A-rank.

tl;dr

Mega Lopunny>>>>S rank
Serperior>>>>B rank
Thundurus>>>>A+ rank
Latios>>>>>A+ rank

Dead weight? that is just plain wrong.
MegaGross comes in expecting to mega evolve on Clefable and gets nailed by flamethrower:

4 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 136-162 (45 - 53.6%)

Even after megaing its bulk isn't that much better:
0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 108-128 (35.7 - 42.3%)

Its far from deadweight.
Metagross can only switch in safely a couple times into clefable a poke its supposed to beat. Sure you got to predict the Metagross switch in, but anyone using clefable should have a Metagross switch in.

A poke doesn't have to 6-0 the whole meta to be S-rank.
To address this point, many common mons in the meta such as mega metagross and scizor can take down and threaten Clefable, and being taken down by top tier threats keeps it out of S-rank.
 
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To address this point, many common mons in the meta such as mega metagross and scizor can take down and threaten Clefable, and being taken down by top tier threats keeps it out of S-rank.
Mega-Scizor/Scizor are both shaky checks as they fear the Flamethrower.

Its quite the opposite as Clefable actually checks/counters many top tier threats and Steels not named Heatran or Metagross need to be sure Clefable isnt carrying a Fire Move if they want to switch in.
 
Alright I'll say it, I don't like where S rank is or where it's heading. I know this sounds bad, but I hate when people refer to the definition of a rank when trying to say it should be that rank. This mostly stems from the definitions of the rankings being complete bull. What makes an S rank Pokemon? Well in my opinion they're the best Pokemon in the tier. But what makes something the best? Well I see it more from a teambuilding perspective than anything else. Pokemon that influence the decisions that I have to make when building a team and have more natural "pull" on the metagame are what makes S ranks. I couldn't care less if they can sweep a majority of the meta if I never have to think about it. Hydreigon can break all my balance teams. Does that make it S? No because it's not common and not splashable (meaning it can't be used on just any team). It's not a relevant enough mon to be S rank. Same goes for Thundurus. There are very few times when I think "man I am just so weak to Thundurus and I need a specific check to it." And that's because on its own it isn't a super influential Pokemon. So yes, it's not something that should be S rank and I agree with its dropping. But Latios? Now that is one of the absolute first things I have checked whenever I build a team. It's powerful, it's fast, and most of all, it's fucking everywhere. Every team ACTIVELY needs a Latios check, possibly two or more. Every team ACTIVELY needs a Landorus-T check. But does every team ACTIVELY need a Mega Lopunny check? Honestly it sort of just comes with checking other physical attackers...that's not very S rank to me. I mean, if I'm weak to Ground types and I throw a Landorus-T on my team, I've just checked Mega Lopunny without even trying. Same thing happens with Slowbro or Gliscor or Mew. Any of these Pokemon can be put on my team to check (imo) much more prevelant threats, but also naturally do well against Lopunny. So honestly I don't usually give it a second thought. It certainly isn't near Latios on my "things I need answers for" list. And this is all excluding the fact that it's a Mega. Mega Pokemon by definition are never splashable. Mega Pokemon, in my opinion, have to be like "oh my god crazy insanely influential" in order to be S rank, ala XY Xard. Mega Sableye fits this to a T, that thing is incredibly influential, it just blows back teams that are unprepared for it. Lopunny might do work against certain teams, but ask yourself this: are those teams really weak to Lopunny? Or are they just weak to fast physical attackers? Could a Mega Gallade or a Scarf Lando-T or a Banded Terrakion do the same thing? I think in most cases you'll find the answer is yes. And that is why I don't think Lopunny is S rank. Of course I'm pulling all of this out of my ass because this isn't following the definition given to us in the OP, so it really doesn't matter what I think. But if you think about what the thread really is and what it's meant to do (be a guide for newer users to show them not only a threatlist but a threatlist that lists things in order of their necessity to prepare for in team building), I think you'll agree that the way I look at S rank isn't too absurd.

Anyway long story short if I had my way, S rank would be:

Clefable
Greninja
Landorus-T
Latios
Mega Sableye

These are by far the most influential Pokemon in my opinion, and nothing else even comes close (well if Greninja is banned, Keldeo could take its spot but I'm not 100% on that).

I agree with your view on "what shold be an S rank" for the most part, but imo your missing an important point here. Aside from the importance of having a check for it you also have to ask "how difficult is it to get one". You even considered that part somewhat in your argument against Lopunny where you stated that most physical defensive mons check it along with other stuff (that isnt even true though since it has many sets to get past these things) so its not hard to prepare for but you totaly ignored it when it came to Latios. I mean yeah Latios is good and its everywhere but so are its checks and counters. Pretty much every steel type in the meta from Mega Metagross over Heatran down to Jirachi and Empoleon makes a very good check for it and there are other things, like Ttar, Clefable, Mega Garde and what not. Its actually quite difficult to build a team without packing at least 1 Lati check. Most of the time you will end up with 2 or more without even trying.
 

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I'm not sure where this idea that viability is equivalent to how important it is to take into account when teambuilding comes from because that simply isn't true. Some of the very first Pokemon I think of when I teambuild, Ferrothorn and Rotom-W, are only in A. A lot of people make sure not to make Baton-Pass weak teams yet Espeon is only at C, lower than the likes of Doublade, Mega-Ampharos and Mega-Camerupt which no one really thinks of when teambuilding. For me, viability has to be seen both from the point of view of the user and the opponent, but more so the former. After all, the descriptions for each rank refer to risk/reward, how easy it is to account for these Pokemon's flaws, and how reliable they are, all of which are more relevant to the user of the Pokemon. For the most part, the elements of viability that affects the opponent are direct consequences of those that affect the user. ie "this Pokemon is so easy to slap on a team, it is everywhere and therefore has a huge impact on teambuilding" or "this Pokemon can set up so consistently, you need a consistent answer to it in return". Therefore, I don't think we need to adjust for how threatening a Pokemon is since that's already a consequence of how good it is from the point of view of the user. The only exception to this is how many potential sets this Pokemon can run which is definitely more relevant to the opponent than the user, and should also be considered in viability. Sure, you can use the viability rankings as a threatlist, it works pretty well as one, but that's not its primary use afaik.


That being said, I do think viability isn't that clear a concept and there need to be specific questions we need to answer in order to get a better idea of what viability really means. Personally, the questions I consider when thinking about viability are these :

  • How much does this Pokemon bring offensively? defensively? supportively?
  • How important is this Pokemon's job in the current metagame?
  • How consistent is this Pokemon at doing its job?
  • How safe and easy is this Pokemon to use?
  • How versatile is this Pokemon and how efficient is it at its different roles?
  • How commonly is this Pokemon the best option on a team as opposed to something else? (if the answer is "never" then the Pokemon is unviable)
  • How much opportunity cost does this Pokemon have?
  • How much momentum is this Pokemon able to generate?
  • How consistently and reliably can these Pokemon's check and counters check and counter it?
  • How common are this Pokemon's weaknesses?
  • How easy are this Pokemon's weaknesses to cover without losing too much offensive momentum?
  • These last 4 questions can be summed up in this last, very important question : How much strain does including this Pokemon put on the rest of your team and how much is it worth what the Pokemon provides?

I may be forgetting something and this list can probably be improved but these are the most important questions imo. A Pokemon doesn't have to answer all of these with flying colors to be S rank, and some questions are definitely more important than others. but this should be a good enough basis for figuring out how different Pokemon compare in terms of viability.


So, if we take Latios for example, it brings a lot offensively, defensively, AND supportively. Its ability to check Keldeo, Rotom-W and Landorus-I as well as providing Defog support is very important, it's quite consistent throughout multiple playstyles though hampered by Pursuit trappers, it's not that safe or easy to use though since both of its STABs have immunities and once again it's annoyed by Pursuit, but it's not exactly hard to use either. It's not particularly versatile but both the Life Orb and Scarf set are very good at what they do, it's almost always the best option on a team and only suffers minor competition from Celebi and Starmie. No opportunity cost at all. Its high speed and power give it good momentum-gaining abilities, however, the fact that its STABs have immunities can be problematic in that regard, as can Draco Meteor's SpA drops. Latios's access to coverage means a lot of its checks (Heatran, Ferrothorn, Scizor) can't check it too reliably, and it still deals a good chunk bit of damage to the likes of Tyranitar and Bisharp (though if they have Pursuit they don't really need to consistently check it,, especially TTar who if Scarfed doesn't even need to win a 50/50) so most of its checks can be worn down. It does have a bunch of common checks though, Heatran and Ferrothorn are very common, Clefable is quite common, but the biggest thorn in Latios' side is Mega-Metagross. Now, it is true that Mega-Metagross can't switch into Latios multiple times in a match. However, it is so common and so powerful that pretty much every team featuring a Latios needs a good answer to it. And though those do exist, they, for the most part, kill momentum pretty badly. This means that an offensive team with Latios has to choose between either being weak to MMetagross or running a momentum-killer, neither of which are very appealing options. Latios should not be S rank imo, simply because of that last point : putting it on your team puts a real strain on your teambuilding and a lot of offensive teams would much rather not run it and not open themselves to Mega-Metagross.


I can apply this to basically any Pokemon. Let's do Mega-Lopunny. It's brings a ton offensively, with the ability to threaten a large amount of teams though very little defensively. It does have quite a few support options, but in order to access them it usually needs to give up some offensive potential. Lopunny has a very unique role in being both fast enough to cause huge problems for offensive teams, outspeeding a bunch of fast threats like Weavile and some slower sweepers at +1, all the while being powerful enough and having good enough coverage to threaten certain bulky Pokemon (stuff like Rotom-W, Ferrothorn and Heatran). The ability to both hit fast and hit hard with great coverage is very valuable to a lot of teams Its mix of speed, power, and coverage is almost unmatched and though it has minor competition from other Fighting types like Mega-Gallade it still has a ton of advantages over most Pokemon that could be used over it, so it's the bets choice for a mega on a lot of teams. It's very consistent at its job, almost always putting in a lot of work against offense though it can struggle against bulkier teams depending on what it runs. It's easy to use, especially for the Fake out set. Return is usually the safest move to use since it's 100% accurate most of its resists (Steel-types and Rock-types) are hit very hard by HJK the nets turn if they do decide to switch in for whatever reason. HJK is to be used if you need the extra damage or are hitting a Return resist Sub and PuP sets are slightly less mindless and require a little prediction but aren't hard to use either. It has a variety of great sets which all serve slightly different purposes and can be fitted depending on what the team needs. It has some of opportunity cost given that it is a mega. It is a fantastic momentum generator due to its high speed and power. It is vulnerable to passive damage from Rough Skin, Iron Barbs and Rocky Helmet, faster attackers (basically Scarfers) and physcial walls which are kinda common but not all that common (2 of the most common phsycially defensive Pokemon, Rotom-W and Ferrothorn, can't beat it). Its most common answer, Landorus-T, is very easy to wear down especially if scarfed and loses to Ice punch variants. Scarfers check it but are not hard to take advantage of, and the only truly common defensive answer to it is Slowbro who is kinda messed up by Toxic. Most of its defensive checks have reliable recovery so can consistently deal with it, however the existence of the Encore and Toxic sets doesn't make them 100% reliable counters either. Most importantly, none of its anwsers are hard to deal with. they can all be taken advantage of or worn down without losing offensive momentum. This is what makes MLopunny S in my opinion, the inability to reliably check it without letting yourself being checked quite easily in return.


So yeah, if you're wondering how I personally judge viability, that's more or less it. If we can come up with general, precise standards for viability that would be great and would make these discussions go a lot more smoothly.
 
I don't know why people are so bad with Thundurus. I guess that it still an incredible mon, being able to Thunder Wave lot of things in order to prevent them to sweep or do at least too many damages. Lopunny, DD Altaria, DD Gyarados are all examples of mons that Thundurus can cripple. It's also faster than 110s which is a big niche imo, as it can revenge-kill Diancie, Lati Twins, Gallade and mostly important Metagross. In my opinion Thundurus is still very good, being able to threaten both Stall and balanced building with Nasty Plot, and HO teams with its standard Thunder Wave + 3 attacks set, and it's one of most consistent mon to have in a offense team in general.
 

MANNAT

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Mega-Scizor/Scizor are both shaky checks as they fear the Flamethrower.

Its quite the opposite as Clefable actually checks/counters many top tier threats and Steels not named Heatran or Metagross need to be sure Clefable isnt carrying a Fire Move if they want to switch in.
The problem is that you won't be using a fire move when scizor switches in and CB zor as well as megazor can 2 shot max hp max def clefable and mega scizor can take a flamethrower if it has enough investment into bulk. Granted Clefable is an amazing poke that i love to use, but it is just fine sitting at A+ rank to me because of common checks in the metagame.
 

MANNAT

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... why not? Prediction goes both ways; you can't just assume that the Clefable user will never predict the Scizor switch-in.
I was just saying that saying that you can predict an incoming scizor and use flamethrower isn't the best reasoning for a mon being S RANK because that is based on chance. Sure it is possible to predict an incoming switch in, but I don't like it when people use the fact that they can predict a switch in as reasoning.
 

Mr. Hothead

formerly Salt2DaFeds
I would just like to say that Contrary Serperior deserves C- rank as of now. It sure as hell probably deserves a higher ranking but it has half the movepool as Kyu B with 2 moveslots. The only move that compliments its ability well is Leaf Storm, and the only coverage it has after that is HP fire. and with Contrary it cant setup with Coil/CM which sucks. C- is fine for it.
 
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