Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

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MANNAT

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Hasn't Flying Spam declined in usage though? Heracross has always had that issue in Gen 6, but if Flying Spam has decreased in usage, then this argument is not as strong.
Flyingspam has always been there, but the increase in fairies has heavily outgained the decline of flyspam.
 
I was just saying that saying that you can predict an incoming scizor and use flamethrower isn't the best reasoning for a mon being S RANK because that is based on chance. Sure it is possible to predict an incoming switch in, but I don't like it when people use the fact that they can predict a switch in as reasoning.
Prediction goes both ways. That's like saying Greninja doesn't deserve S-rank because it doesn't predict Conkeldurr coming in to mach punch it.
 
Just wondering, what are the reasons to lower M cross? Purely because of the ffairy usage increase?
While flying spam decreased a bit, the ORAS meta brings mons he doesn't like. Hes having problems with the increasing fairy spam and some psychic pokemons that rising. Also the mega competition is getting even more harder, and while no other mon hit hard as him, some the new mega are a lot faster and more bulkier which make harder to revenge kill.
 

MANNAT

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Prediction goes both ways. That's like saying Greninja doesn't deserve S-rank because it doesn't predict Conkeldurr coming in to mach punch it.
My point was using the fact clefable predicting scizor coming in as a threat and using flamethrower isn't the best reasoning behind making it S rank. Granted it is an amazing mon, but I don't believe it deserves S rank because there are several common Pokemon that take it down such as bulky Scizor, Metagross, and Heatran. However, it is still a top-tier A+ rank threat. IMO it is the Rotom-W of A+.
 
Serperior will be good against stall but against offensive mons, it will fall.

It's movepool doesn't even lend itself to taking on the more powerful mons in the tier, and it's defensive stats don't show any sign of being able to take more than one strong non-super effective attack.

While serperior will have a good niche of decimating stall and baiting the most troubling steel type to your team (heatran, mScizor, ferrothorn etc)It will not have a viable offensive niche.

I think a set that sacrifices a little sp. Attack for HP, with leaf storm, dragon pulse, HP your choice, and a useful support move such as toxic, glare, screens, seeds, aromatherapy, taunt, knock off, or synthesis.

Basically, serperior will be hell for stall, a good way to build momentum off grass weak mons and take out base 110's but not a good answer to offensive mons nor a good idea to run as a sweeper.
 
My point was using the fact clefable predicting scizor coming in as a threat and using flamethrower isn't the best reasoning behind making it S rank. Granted it is an amazing mon, but I don't believe it deserves S rank because there are several common Pokemon that take it down such as bulky Scizor, Metagross, and Heatran. However, it is still a top-tier A+ rank threat. IMO it is the Rotom-W of A+.
And you're missing the fact that Mega Scizor is not a good answer to Clefable. Maybe in a pure 1 v 1 situation Mega Scizor can beat Clefable but in general Mega Scizor is not an answer.

I'm not pushing for Clefable for S-Rank right now because the main issue is Mega Metagross, however I was merely pointing out that Scizor is shaky at best because Flamethrower/Fire Blast is not rare on Clefable making most Steel-type switchins not named Metagross and Heatran dangerous answers to Clefable.
 
I really think that if they continue to think that Serperior has niches (or even more or less) in the OU metagame, i would be very happy of his blacklisting.
I don't think it's blacklist worthy. While it's initial placement is up for debate, it fits in the C ranks at the very least. Blacklisting is more for things that are either generally outclassed or for things that get brought up repeatedly for incredibly small niches, neither of which Serperior really fits.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
Seriously, why isn't Tentacruel B / B- yet?

This thing is solid on Sableye Stall and is actually one of the few spinners that can beat it with Acid Spray. It's a good check or even counter against

Clefable
Venusaur
LO Gengar lacking Tbolt
Venusaur
Sableye
Heatran lacking Earth Power
Keldeo (well, it can knock off specs/scarf/etc which is great)
Mew
Chesnaught
Mega Houndoom

And plenty of other threats and can threaten a bunch of physical attackers aswell due to Scalds 100% 30% burn chance

It's definitely not on the same level as pokemon like Entei, Mega Blastoise (I'd consider Tenta a better spinner tbh), Mega Glalie etc
 
I really think that if they continue to think that Serperior has niches (or even more or less) in the OU metagame, i would be very happy of his blacklisting.
Woah there! If it's too early to rank a Pokemon that's only been out a day, it's CERTAINLY too soon to blacklist it. Something that (admittedly "appealing to experts" fallacy) well regarded players are considering for B or above is hardly going to be on the level of Donphan or Florges. And Serperior's cons are really being overblown. Sure, it has a shit movepool, but what it has when you consider a boosting move that works alongside a STAB Base 120 move in addition to Dpulse + HP + whatever you feel works best isn't all that bad. What everyone is THINKING is "Talonflame shits on it/Heatran walls it", which is true to a certain degree. Don't let this affect your judgment just yet; the entire Serperior thread has been tackling this question and it hasn't given up yet.

...with Contrary it cant setup with Coil/CM which sucks. C- is fine for it.
Not disagreeing with C-, but that point is a bit silly. The last thing Serperior would want to run is a boosting move. It's got a reverse-leafstorm! That's all the boosting it needs, plus those three moves for coverage/support. Plus regular Serp can run Coil and nobody uses it :I


Honestly, I do think it's too early to rank Seperior. NOT because we can't say how good it is, because a lot of people who have done their research can (to vastly varying degrees however, but that's democracy). The reason I don't want to see it ranked is because the metagame hasn't remotely adapted to it yet, and the viability rankings are all about how the meta reacts to stuff. If Serperior peaks in usage because it's really bloody good/flexible and frees up some teambuilding, and then everyone starts running TFlame + Heatran cores as standard to beat it specifically, then we'll rank it at those points. Doing it now is kind of putting the cart before the horse. (Not that suggestions shouldn't be made as people use it/battle against it, though!)
 

AM

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For people saying stuff along the lines of "why isn't this at B-/B yet" or w/e variation of this do realize that it hasn't updated yet because it was all being discussed prior so no sense in asking this question every single time we get to the rank.

Albacore made a mention of B but I think that's high for Serperior right now. Also I'm perfectly fine with ranking it. It's in the meta and it's available to utilize so there's really no reason not to along with the fact I've seen people use it a decent amount already. If I had to rank it judging from my experience right now with it I think B- would be the highest it should go maybe C+ as a starting point but C+ is kind of hard to see it at cause it does make a decent cleaner late game and isn't necessarily on par with stuff like Gastrodon. The reason why I think C+ would be fine is cause it has a very poor defensive typing, extreme limitation in movepool, and gets worn down pretty quick where as B- sort of just emphasizes all of its positives although most of these positives can be seen on a good day when you're not looking at Heatran, Talonflame, and Scarf Lando-T on half the teams. Can't ignore the power behind a +2 boost which can help it be a bit more sufficient at times but yeah amongst those two rankings is where I see Serperior more than likely placed for the time being cause that's how it feels from a teambuilding and practical perspective. When the meta and if the meta starts getting more accustomed to it then that's another story for a rise or drop so yeah that's my opinion on the matter.
 

MANNAT

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Scizor is a shaky answer to Clefable, but it is still a check because it can 1v1 Clefable. Also, Clefable shouldn't be not be in S-rank because several common mons take it down. Spdef rotom-w can also take down all of the non-CM sets from clefable because it can tank 4 moonblasts before going down and it can 4 shot clef with hydro as well as being able to wear down unaware clef with wisp. In addition, Banded and SD talonflames can do very well against unaware and magic guard Clefable respectively as banded Talon can two shot Physically defensive Clefable, and +2 Talonflame can OHKO magic guard clefable half of the time. Furthermore, LO bisharp can one shot max/max bold Clefable after rocks half the time while flamethrower only does 60-70% to bisharp.

All of the Pokemon that I mentioned are in the top 15 most used mons in the new usage stats as seen below, so common Clefable checks and counters are plentiful in the tier. It isn't a Metagame defining threat because you probably slap one or two Clefable checks or counters on most teams without even realizing it just because those mons are used so commonly used and good in general. IMO Clefable is an important threat in the metagame, but its common checks and counters prevent it from becoming S-rank. In fact I might look to moving this Pokemon down instead of up, but I think that Clefable is just fine sitting at the rank it is.

14 | Metagross | 11.412% |
2 | Heatran | 22.578% |
3 | Rotom-Wash | 22.385% |
7 | Talonflame | 15.945%
11 | Bisharp | 13.113% |

Edit: Calcs for confirmation.
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 135-159 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Rotom-W: 70-84 (23 - 27.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 364-429 (92.3 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 320-377 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 168-198 (61.7 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

AM

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Rotom-W is not a Clefable answer and it's not even close to one. I have no clue what you're even trying to prove with that point cause that's extremely false. Talonflame, Heatran, and M-Gross in regards to handling Clefable is sort of a given already. No need to bog up pages among pages of details that quite frankly should already be a given.
 
Reposting my "Dragalge to B-/C+" from the previous viability thread.

Gonna be ballsy and nominate Dragalge for B- (or at least C+). I think it's quite possible to make a case for that.

I'm not even talking about the Specs set, which is probably C+ on its own. People seem to think that's the only viable set for Dragalge to run, which is certainly untrue. The ability to run Toxic Plate/Draco Plate (depending on the situation/team need) lets you almost bluff a Specs set, which is incredibly useful when you have fairly powerful STAB (plus, if you run Scald, which is fairly standard on even defensive Dragalge sets, you can surprise something with Draco Meteor/Sludge Wave on the switch in, which is very nice). Even with Draco Plate/Toxic Plate, Draco Meteor still utterly annihilates most things, even some that resist (Bisharp), while Toxic Plate still does tons of damage to fairies (you can reliably come in on Clefable at +1 and beat it even with lowest damage rolls).

Defensive sets with Dragon Tail/Sub actually work too because Poison/Dragon with some SpDef/HP investment (Calm, 248HP, 100 SpDef) makes your subs not-broken by things like Rotom-W Volt Switch, Talonflame/Diggersby/Scizor U-turn, and others, so you can up hazards damage with Dragon Tail (Skarmory is a great partner, only shared non-resist is Ice) or nail more stuff on the switch in with an Adaptability-boosted attack (which still hurt even with only 156 SpA investment). Dragon/Poison is just a nifty typing-you can also run a 100% accurate Toxic if you want, and the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes I guess is nice although nobody seems to run those. Even with Defensive sets, you still wreck Clefable/Azumarill (not really Togekiss unless you predict it switching in, because ParaFlinch Hax), who can only hit you for neutral damage at best.

Also, Dragalge's base speed (44), while low, is actually enough to invest in to beat stuff like uninvested Tyranitar and the like-but still low enough that you don't NEED max speed investment, and can instead shove that into bulk, making Dragalge actually fairly bulky (relatively speaking, even Specs builds are bulkier than Latios). Plus, you are Pursuit/U-Turn resistant, which is nice compared to the Lati twins (remember in comparison, Specs Dragalge hits not only harder than Specs Latios-Specs Dragalge hits 8% harder than Timid Life Orb Mega Rayquaza). So while you're not gonna be replacing Latios/Latias with Dragalge, it isn't completely 100% outclassed by them. They all can wall-break, but have different "other" niches (Defoggers/RKers for the Latis, defensive utility for Latias and Dragalge, with Dragalge being arguably better due to bulk investment and a great typing).

Dragalge does suffer though from a pretty low HP stat (base 65 isn't great even fully invested) and a very common weakness in ground, as Earthquake is friggin' everywhere. Ice and Psychic aren't the best weaknesses to have either. A decent-ish base defense of 95 is again not that great simply because base 65 health means even maxing out your defense (mostly not advisable, unless you can hit some benchmarks with uninvested EQ from some things, but unlikely to be worth the SpDef/SpA compromise), so strong neutral attacks will make you sad. In addition, you've got no reliable recovery other than Black Sludge (used on defensive sets), and since you're pretty darn slow, you'll probably take a good hit coming in (assuming you're not volt-turned in, which is honestly one of the best ways to bring in Dragalge), wearing you down pretty fast.

All in all, I think Dragalge's ability to murderize most of the relevant OU fairies while being able to OHKO/do 75%+ to most of OU, while being pretty darn good from a defensive standpoint, make it at least viable for C+. It's basically a more offensive version of Goodra (at least the offensive sets) that benefits from an arguably-more-useful-in-this-meta defensive typing. I'd argue that it's at least equal to those pokes in terms of defensive utility, but the sheer power Dragalge can offer makes me want to be brave and nominate to B- simply because Specs/Plates Dragalge can OHKO most of the A/B/C tiers (quite a few after rocks-but even stuff like standard Bisharp is OHKO'd by Specs/Draco Plate Draco) with either Draco Meteor or Sludge Wave, which is kinda insane and not seen by a lot of the stuff in C+.
 

MANNAT

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Rotom-W is not a Clefable answer and it's not even close to one. I have no clue what you're even trying to prove with that point cause that's extremely false. Talonflame, Heatran, and M-Gross in regards to handling Clefable is sort of a given already. No need to bog up pages among pages of details that quite frankly should already be a given.
I was just trying to say that it can tank hits from Clefable, not that it was an answer to Clefable. Sorry if it sounded like I was trying to convey that it was an answer to Clefable. Also, I was just pointing out that 4 mons that were in the top 15 usage were answers to Clefable, so it shouldn't be S rank.
 
I want to point out something with regard to Serperior and the comments people are making about stall.

AV Tornadus-T is making a huge comeback due to its incredibly useful speed, movepool, bulk, and seemingly no greninjas. It counters Serperior just fine (though relying on 70% hurricane)

Yes serp can beat things like quagsire/sableye/clefable stall teams but there are plenty of more proactive stall teams out there that use stuff besides the blobs. Venusaur stall is coming back as well and matches up well against both serp and manaphy so take that into account.

Serp isn't necessarily the ultimate stallbreaker. But it still deserves a A-/B+ ranking.
 

MANNAT

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I want to point out something with regard to Serperior and the comments people are making about stall.

AV Tornadus-T is making a huge comeback due to its incredibly useful speed, movepool, bulk, and seemingly no greninjas. It counters Serperior just fine (though relying on 70% hurricane)

Yes serp can beat things like quagsire/sableye/clefable stall teams but there are plenty of more proactive stall teams out there that use stuff besides the blobs. Venusaur stall is coming back as well and matches up well against both serp and manaphy so take that into account.

Serp isn't necessarily the ultimate stallbreaker. But it still deserves a A-/B+ ranking.
Serp can't kill unaware clefable........
 
More checks in the existence of new megas was another reason.
While flying spam decreased a bit, the ORAS meta brings mons he doesn't like. Hes having problems with the increasing fairy spam and some psychic pokemons that rising. Also the mega competition is getting even more harder, and while no other mon hit hard as him, some the new mega are a lot faster and more bulkier which make harder to revenge kill.
Yeah, i guess i was a bit biased at first because i like mega cross but then i remembered stewpid mega altaria and the other fairies rape him, bird spam doesnt help either. I guess i agree with B+ too since a team build around him is very effective and hard to take on (personally sub+3attacks works fine for me).
 

Mr. Hothead

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I want to point out something with regard to Serperior and the comments people are making about stall.

AV Tornadus-T is making a huge comeback due to its incredibly useful speed, movepool, bulk, and seemingly no greninjas. It counters Serperior just fine (though relying on 70% hurricane)

Yes serp can beat things like quagsire/sableye/clefable stall teams but there are plenty of more proactive stall teams out there that use stuff besides the blobs. Venusaur stall is coming back as well and matches up well against both serp and manaphy so take that into account.

Serp isn't necessarily the ultimate stallbreaker. But it still deserves a A-/B+ ranking.
See, this is why we dont like your opinions.

The guy doesnt deserve anything higher than C, period. The idiots who wanna put him to A/B rank

-Dont think
-are biased
-Just plain dumb

A few exceptions with B- rank though as B- isnt too much of a push for Serp. But being cockblocked by basically every single Steel type and a few dominant pokemon on OU, Im still fine with C- for it.
 
Serp can't kill unaware clefable........
Actually, this might be a bit wrong since i havent used Clefable recently, this calc would prove otherwise:


252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Again, not entirely sure bout the EVs any more but with that old benchmark it could.
 

Grim

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Actually, this might be a bit wrong since i havent used Clefable recently, this calc would prove otherwise:


252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Again, not entirely sure bout the EVs any more but with that old benchmark it could.
If anything a fully defensive set has become more common. So yes, it does break through Unaware Clefable according to the calcs.
 
I was just trying to say that it can tank hits from Clefable, not that it was an answer to Clefable. Sorry if it sounded like I was trying to convey that it was an answer to Clefable. Also, I was just pointing out that 4 mons that were in the top 15 usage were answers to Clefable, so it shouldn't be S rank.
Can he really, though? It would be extremely unwise to try to leave Rotom-W in on Clefable to sponge hits while she sets up for the CM massacre. I just can't even with that claim.

Also, your first post is incredibly humorous. Cherry picking calculations, assuming everyone who uses Clefable is clearly a retard and stays in against pokemon it has no business attempting to beat, but also assuming things are getting in at full health, which means someone has died to Clefable or she is boosted. My guess is even if someone died, she is likely still boosted.

For example, I prefer Life Orb Clefable with CM/Moonblast/Boiled/Flamethrower. While I appreciate leftover users for wanting to give her more opportunities to boost, I believe having more turn 1 and turn 2 power to hammer the switches is more important. I actually believe CM Clefable is the most common use of Clefable, as it is less effective as an Unaware user most of the time.

4 SpA Life Orb Clefable Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 117-138 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Even if you get your Bisharp in there unscathed, there is a 50% chance he will kill himself on Life Orb damage + Flamethrower anyway. If he doesn't, he can KO her next turn, but he will definitely die to life orb damage. I fail to see how that is a counter.

Different variants of Talonflame have great success against Clefable, but the choice banded set really doesn't if she is at a large amount of HP. She can simply predict the blitz/bird and softboiled off the damage forcing you to switch or kill yourself on recoil, which basically means you made zero progress, potentially allowing her to further boost when you go home with your tail between your legs. Admittedly, the boosting set works really well, but that is something Clefable likely won't stay in on. I guess, technically, it can also run thunderbolt(although it won't often) which one shots setup Flame at +1. I don't really consider that a valid argument, though.

Hell, even Jolly Mega-Gross doesn't guarantee a 1HKO on a full health Clefable. If you switch in on a calm mind, there is still an RNGers chance that you fail to kill Clefable. Worse, if she predicts that you will switch to Mega-Gross, she could flamethrower and burn you. And there goes your counter.

Being able to run a few different sets(even stealth rocks!), 2 viable abilities, and being surprisingly bulky with great typing means improper prediction of what Clefable is running can put you well behind the 8-ball.

Overall, I think it is silly to say Clefable having these checks is a problem. Heatran is the only 100% true counter. If your team doesn't have someone that can more efficiently handle Metagross, Heatran, and Talonflame, you aren't doing it right.
 
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Halcyon.

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I'll just say this, it took JIRACHI until the last few months to be S rank in BW, and everyone knows that's absolutely absurd. Clefable is 100% comparable to BW Jirachi. It's one of the most splashable Pokemon in the tier, covers a ton of threats while team building, can provide Wish support Cleric support, T wave support, rocks support, stall breaking support with Stored Power, offensive support with LO CM, lure support with Knock Off and Focus Blast, and defensive support with Unaware. All of those are not only viable options for Clefable to run, they are great sets. Does it get checked by Mega Metagross? Yeah, but that shouldn't make it not S rank. Metagross gets cock-blocked by Mega Bro and Sableye but that doesn't stop it from being S rank. And at least Clef can cripple it with a Flamethrower/Fire Blast/T-Wave on the switch. Just because it doesn't sweep through all of the meta in a single set doesn't mean it isn't S rank. Its unmatched utility is what makes it S rank. Just like BW Jirachi. Don't be the BW VR thread. No one wants to be that thread ;~;

EDIT: Seriously if you think Heatran is a full stop to Clef, try Knock Off or t-wave or Focus Blast. Heatran loses without Lefties if it lacks taunt and if it does have taunt then t wave wins because you can set up before it taunts you again as you outspeed (not to mention para chance). Focus Blast beating it should be obvious (also hits Ferro too).
 
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