Serious Charlie Hebdo attack and European Far Right

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

Cover for next issue.
Three million copies are to be published of this week's Charlie Hebdo special "survivors' issue", with many of them to be made available outside of France and offered "in 16 languages".

The "survivor's issue" depicts the Prophet crying, as the magazine's lawyer says staff will "cede nothing" to extremists.

Good for them! Nobody should back down from these zealots. I am not defending any racist sentiments, I am defending those people's right to live. No cartoon is worth killing or dying over.

"Brother will kill brother, spilling blood across the land. Killing for Religion, something I don't understand"- Dave Mustaine

 

[Ampharos]

According to what I've been able to find on the internet, the main reason that visual depictions of Muhammad are prohibited in Sunni Islam (Shia Islam is overall less concerned with it) is to discourage idoltry. Anyone who thinks that people are going to worship a satirical drawing in a satirical magazine needs to have their head examined.

The problem with extremism in general is people obeying the letter of the law and not the spirit of it. Religions are particularly bad about this, what with the whole Muhammad thing or Christians who cite Leviticus as an excuse for homophobia, but it also exists in other facets of life, such as certain American politicians who treat the Constitution as if it were handed down by Jesus himself. People don't read into things and think for themselves, and it leads them to do disgusting things like this.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

According to what I've been able to find on the internet, the main reason that visual depictions of Muhammad are prohibited in Sunni Islam (Shia Islam is overall less concerned with it) is to discourage idoltry. Anyone who thinks that people are going to worship a satirical drawing in a satirical magazine needs to have their head examined.

The problem with extremism in general is people obeying the letter of the law and not the spirit of it. Religions are particularly bad about this, what with the whole Muhammad thing or Christians who cite Leviticus as an excuse for homophobia, but it also exists in other facets of life, such as certain American politicians who treat the Constitution as if it were handed down by Jesus himself. People don't read into things and think for themselves, and it leads them to do disgusting things like this.

Speaking of Idolatry...

http://m.thehindu.com/news/internat...lares-snowmen-antiislamic/article6784393.ece/

Apparently, Le Snowman is for Infidels.
Some people are sick by proxy.

Religion y u no like snowman?!

 

[Trax]

Put bluntly, good on Europeans for standing up for themselves. Shame it took them so long to wake up to it.

Frankly, no Western country has been improved by the presence of Muslims.

 

[chaos]

Frankly, no Western country has been improved by the presence of Muslims.

nationalist, huh?

 

[Soul Fly]

Frankly, no Western country has been improved by the presence of Muslims.

Unless you provide some convincing non bullshit context to this, this just sounds like dangerous drivel from a massive right wing dickhead. I hope that's not true.

 

[Trax]

Unless you provide some convincing non bullshit context to this, this just sounds like dangerous drivel from a massive right wing dickhead. I hope that's not true.

Spain: 3-4% Muslim. Spain Prison Population: 70% Muslim.
France: 4% Muslim. France Prison Population: 60% Muslim.
Netherlands: 5.5% Muslim. Netherlands Prison Population: 20% Muslim.
Britain: 4% Muslim. Britain Prison Population: 13% Muslim.

Germany is virtually the only western country of any size where these statistics aren't repeated. Make any excuse you like, it's plain unacceptable.

 

[X5Dragon]

Spain: 3-4% Muslim. Spain Prison Population: 70% Muslim.
France: 4% Muslim. France Prison Population: 60% Muslim.
Netherlands: 5.5% Muslim. Netherlands Prison Population: 20% Muslim.
Britain: 4% Muslim. Britain Prison Population: 13% Muslim.

Germany is virtually the only western country of any size where these statistics aren't repeated. Make any excuse you like, it's plain unacceptable.

Christians make up about 80% of the American population AND prison population. I bet in Estonia most of the prison population is Atheist as well. Let's just throw these people into the sea, eh?

Or let's ignore the fact most of these people are poor immigrants with high unemployment, inferior schools and substandard housing and live in ghettos/impoverished suberbs to begin with.

But you know what? Fuck it let's just take the racial component of prison populations in each country and judge accordingly. I can't wait to hear your analysis on the African American community and other minorities.

Those Muslim mayors, lawmakers, business men, white collar/blue collar (the reason why these European countries opened immigration in the first place), scientists, sooccer players etc. don't exist and that is clearly why you failed to mention them as positive attributes.

 

[Trax]

Or let's ignore the fact most of these people are poor immigrants with high unemployment, inferior schools and substandard housing and live in ghettos/impoverished suberbs to begin with.

But you know what? Fuck it let's just take the racial component of prison populations in each country and judge accordingly. I can't wait to hear your analysis on the African American community and other minorities.

Stop making excuses for people being shitty.

But just on the African American community, in this discussion we're talking about voluntary immigrants, not people clapped in irons and systematically stripped of their any culture or identity beyond that of an animal for generations.

Those Muslim mayors, lawmakers, business men, white collar/blue collar (the reason why these European countries opened immigration in the first place), scientists, sooccer players etc. don't exist and that is clearly why you failed to mention them as positive attributes.

Most of these people would just be replaced if they weren't there for a moment (so yes, some things might be marginally worse), when compared with the crime statistics it's fair in my view to say that introducing a Muslim population hasn't been especially favourable.

 

[X5Dragon]

Stop making excuses for people being shitty.

But just on the African American community, in this discussion we're talking about voluntary immigrants, not people clapped in irons and systematically stripped of their any culture or identity beyond that of an animal for generations.

Most of these people would just be replaced if they weren't there for a moment (so yes, some things might be marginally worse), when compared with the crime statistics it's fair in my view to say that introducing a Muslim population hasn't been especially favourable.

Stop making shitty arguments then complain when somebody extends the line of thought. These aren't excuses these are the realities on ground, the fact is the circumstances are the same (North African, Eastern European, etc.) and creed/skin color has nothing to do with this, it's just plain racist and ignorant of you.

Immigration was opened because these countries needed talents, labor and positions to be filled so no they wouldn't just be replaced. Who do you think help rebuild Germany after WW2?

 

[Sapientia]

Immigration was opened because these countries needed talents, labor and positions to be filled so no they wouldn't just be replaced. Who do you think help rebuild Germany after WW2?

The so called "Trümmerfrauen". Most of the turkish and italian guest workers came later.

 

[Cresselia~~]

I thought legal immigrants have to be elites or have an expertise in something.

 

[Soul Fly]

Spain: 3-4% Muslim. Spain Prison Population: 70% Muslim.
France: 4% Muslim. France Prison Population: 60% Muslim.
Netherlands: 5.5% Muslim. Netherlands Prison Population: 20% Muslim.
Britain: 4% Muslim. Britain Prison Population: 13% Muslim.

Germany is virtually the only western country of any size where these statistics aren't repeated. Make any excuse you like, it's plain unacceptable.

This proves absolutely nothing. If anything that's also evidence of racial/ethnic profiling and the undercurrent of islamophobia in Europe. It's called assuming causation, and you'd get laughed out of Statistics 101 for making a shitty case like that.
Minority communities always have disproportionate percentage of the population incarcerated. That's what is called discrimination. Either prove to me that this case is different, or get a read argument.
I could easily argue Muslims are also subject to the same kind of identity erosion- The burqa being banned, the owner of Europe's largest media house making blatantly discriminatory remarks, and stepping outside with a beard and a skullcap literally being a "shit on me"/"profile me"/"flag me down for random checking" poster hanging around you.
The African-America prison population comparison drawn earlier is absolutely valid. You can't start drawing imaginary lines to suit your sharpshooting arguments.

The only thing unacceptable here is your virulently retarded arguments. Do better.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Spain: 3-4% Muslim. Spain Prison Population: 70% Muslim.
France: 4% Muslim. France Prison Population: 60% Muslim.
Netherlands: 5.5% Muslim. Netherlands Prison Population: 20% Muslim.
Britain: 4% Muslim. Britain Prison Population: 13% Muslim.

Germany is virtually the only western country of any size where these statistics aren't repeated. Make any excuse you like, it's plain unacceptable.

I have no idea how these numbers support your original statement:
"Put bluntly, good on Europeans for standing up for themselves. Shame it took them so long to wake up to it.

Frankly, no Western country has been improved by the presence of Muslims."

Prison population numbers you've given us has no correlation with your last statement.

 

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

hon hon hon *blows up eiffel tower*

 

[Trax]

Ad hominem

Stop making shitty arguments then complain when somebody extends the line of thought. These aren't excuses these are the realities on ground, the fact is the circumstances are the same (North African, Eastern European, etc.) and creed/skin color has nothing to do with this, it's just plain racist and ignorant of you.

They're excuses, now fuck off and stop making them.

Immigration was opened because these countries needed talents, labor and positions to be filled so no they wouldn't just be replaced. Who do you think help rebuild Germany after WW2?

Actually in most cases immigration was opened because wealthy businesspeople wanted to place downward pressure on blue collar wages, social costs be damned.

This proves absolutely nothing. If anything that's also evidence of racial/ethnic profiling and the undercurrent of islamophobia in Europe. It's called assuming causation, and you'd get laughed out of Statistics 101 for making a shitty case like that.

Profiling somehow makes sufficient evidence for someone to be incarcerated appear?

What shitty logic.

Minority communities always have disproportionate percentage of the population incarcerated. That's what is called discrimination. Either prove to me that this case is different, or get a read argument.

Except they fucking don't. Sikhs and Hindus for instance are rarely overrepresented (and certainly not to the same degree) in prisons.

I could easily argue Muslims are also subject to the same kind of identity erosion- The burqa being banned, the owner of Europe's largest media house making blatantly discriminatory remarks, and stepping outside with a beard and a skullcap literally being a "shit on me"/"profile me"/"flag me down for random checking" poster hanging around you.

This is where we hit the crux of the whole voluntary migration thing, if people don't like it they're welcome to leave.

The Burqa is a divisive issue, if the French find it incompatible with their culture they're entitled to have it banned in their country. It is the French Republic after all and they do not owe anyone any allowances.

Murdoch's views often do not tie into what is promoted on his networks, for example, he's personally pro gun control but I don't think Fox News is going to run any pro gun control pieces. However if someone had said "Maybe most catholic priests aren't paedophiles, but until they recognise and take action against sexual abuse and cover ups by the church they must be held responsible" I doubt you'd be whining about it.

Profiling doesn't magically make sufficient evidence for someone to be incarcerated appear. If profiling leads to convictions then maybe the profile is just accurate.

The African-America prison population comparison drawn earlier is absolutely valid. You can't start drawing imaginary lines to suit your sharpshooting arguments.

It's really not valid at all. I already explained why voluntary immigration and immigration by way of slavery are different, if you can't see the difference then you're wilfully blind.

Ad hominem

The only thing unacceptable here is your virulently retarded arguments. Do better.

I've got a better idea; you shut up or fuck off, ideally both in either order.

 

[X5Dragon]

They're excuses, now fuck off and stop making them

bla bla bla

Actually in most cases immigration was opened because wealthy businesspeople wanted to place downward pressure on blue collar wages, social costs be damned.

bla bla bla

It's really not valid at all. I already explained why voluntary immigration and immigration by way of slavery are different, if you can't see the difference then you're wilfully blind.

bla bla bla

I've got a better idea; you shut up or fuck off, ideally both in either order

I see you are on the verge of crying so I'm gonna calmly, softly tell you that nobody is shutting up or fucking off and that you have 0 authority.

I mean seriously, you say Muslims never had any positive influence in European societies and after being given examples of how they are represented in all aspects of life and how immigration was opened because these countries needed the labor and to take advantage of the human capital flight that are seeking better places from their homelands, you respond by simple saying "nope, doesn't count". Heck, when asked about your judgement of other minorities with high percentages of incarcerated compared to others you suddenly become a believer of social strife and poverty as causes of crime but for Muslims in European countries? No, let's just ignore their economical background and living conditions and just blame the creed.

You bring up Hindus and Sikhs while conveniently forget to mention it is mainly India’s educated elite and their families who come to the U.S.

Here is nice article about the prison population in India which sums up a couple of things:

"Most experts say that this disturbing trend is not because these communities commit more crimes. Rather, it arises because they are economically and socially under-privileged, unable to fight costly cases or often even pay for bail. Some say that these communities are targeted with false cases."

Concerning France and why it has a high prison component which is Muslim:

"French prison officials blame the high numbers on the poverty of people who have moved here from North African and other Islamic countries in recent decades. "Many immigrants arrive in France in difficult financial situations, which make delinquency more frequent," said Jeanne Sautière, director of integration and religious groups for the French prison system. "The most important thing is to say there is no correlation between Islam and delinquency."

But Muslim leaders, sociologists and human rights activists argue that more than in most other European countries, government social policies in France have served to isolate Muslims in impoverished suburbs that have high unemployment, inferior schools and substandard housing. This has helped create a generation of French-born children with little hope of social advancement and even less respect for French authority."

And to show that whenever the same conditions are present regardless of race or creed, the same thing is bound to happen:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/oct/11/black-prison-population-increase-england

Go on, say that no Western European country has improved from blacks or Eastern Europeans, etc.

 

[tehy]

Here in Israel a lot of people are pretty happy about this (well, besides the whole 'people are dead' part). We constantly get bad press for our treatment of arabs, but the culture of extremism that exists within the arab community makes it very difficult to deal with them humanely; not every incident can be explained by this and we definitely have our own problematic extremists and violent sadistic assholes, but still. Anyhow, with events like these we may start to get less criticism from the world and more understanding.

 

[X5Dragon]

Here in Israel a lot of people are pretty happy about this (well, besides the whole 'people are dead' part). We constantly get bad press for our treatment of arabs, but the culture of extremism that exists within the arab community makes it very difficult to deal with them humanely; not every incident can be explained by this and we definitely have our own problematic extremists and violent sadistic assholes, but still. Anyhow, with events like these we may start to get less criticism from the world and more understanding.

More understanding? You mean your random aerial bombardments of apartments, public utilities (water, electricity, sewer treameant, public roads, schools, you name it), your constitutional and existential discrimination of anything not Jewish such as Christians and Muslims (and it has to be the right kind of Jew too), the terrorist settlers you unleash on the properties of poor Palestinian farmers burning down tree, live stock and sometimes even running over children because when your politicians call Arabs coakroaches, why don't you expect these kinds of things?

Maybe your illusions of grandeur has caused you amnesia tehy but you were the ones who forcibly came into their lands, committed mass massacres and expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians worldwide and then segregated their communities and controlled their revenues. You are the troubled immigrants here.

It's no wonder why most of the Jews worldwide choose to live outside of that farce you call a Jewish homeland (you should see Netenyahu begging for Jewish immigration only to be laughed at by Jews), who would want to be associated with that extremist wonderland, fuck lots of Jews even have to donate to Israeli funds just so they can silence their critics and continue living far away from a place so twisted and racist lawmakers went into a hissy fit just because German delegaiton spoke, wait for it, German at the Knessset.

Even the French president didn't want the Israeli PM to attend because of how bad it will look. We'll see you in the International Court of Law soon enough.

 

[Sapientia]

A German journalist was attacked in a tram by a Muslim cleric. The reason: He was reading a newspaper depicting a woman holding the recent issue of Charlie Hebdo with a Mohammed caricature on the front-page.

For those capable of reading German: http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/...hammed-karikatur-auf-titelblatt-13373877.html

 

[DiscoDucky]

A German journalist was attacked in a tram by a Muslim cleric. The reason: He was reading a newspaper depicting a woman holding the recent issue of Charlie Hebdo with a Mohammed caricature on the front-page.

For those capable of reading German: http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/...hammed-karikatur-auf-titelblatt-13373877.html

I question the credibility of your source. I don't generally consider .net news sites to be legitimate and factually based.

 

[Sapientia]

The FAZ ("Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung") is the 3rd highest German newspaper in circulation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurter_Allgemeine_Zeitung

 

[Myzozoa]

the idea that a source is justified on the basis that a lot of people read it, and not on the basis of its place in the larger order of information production and other critical factors is precisely the problem with the ascendancy of freedom of expression in conceptions of just democracy.

 

[JES]

More understanding? You mean your random aerial bombardments of apartments, public utilities (water, electricity, sewer treameant, public roads, schools, you name it), your constitutional and existential discrimination of anything not Jewish such as Christians and Muslims (and it has to be the right kind of Jew too), the terrorist settlers you unleash on the properties of poor Palestinian farmers burning down tree, live stock and sometimes even running over children because when your politicians call Arabs coakroaches, why don't you expect these kinds of things?

Maybe your illusions of grandeur has caused you amnesia tehy but you were the ones who forcibly came into their lands, committed mass massacres and expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians worldwide and then segregated their communities and controlled their revenues. You are the troubled immigrants here.

It's no wonder why most of the Jews worldwide choose to live outside of that farce you call a Jewish homeland (you should see Netenyahu begging for Jewish immigration only to be laughed at by Jews), who would want to be associated with that extremist wonderland, fuck lots of Jews even have to donate to Israeli funds just so they can silence their critics and continue living far away from a place so twisted and racist lawmakers went into a hissy fit just because German delegaiton spoke, wait for it, German at the Knessset.

Even the French president didn't want the Israeli PM to attend because of how bad it will look. We'll see you in the International Court of Law soon enough.

Yeah, I'm of Jewish descent, and even I'm dissatisfied with Israel's lackluster foreign policy for Palestine. Not that the Palestinian government is making matters any better, but yeah...

It just seems that the Israeli government hasn't tried taking the moral high ground in this issue, and IMO, it's hurting them, it's hurting the Palestinians, and anyone unfortunate enough to get caught up in the fighting.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Holy shit, Trax that Islamophobia is disgusting. I'm anti-religion but your assumption that being Muslim automatically makes them shitty people is asinine. You may as well argue that America has not been made better by the presence of blacks because blacks make up 40% of our prison population but 13% of the overall population. The basis of your argument is exactly the same as that.

Now, I'll just say that I'm opposed to organized religion and do not believe any religious beliefs deserve any respect just on the grounds of "it's religion." But to say something like "maybe the profile is just accurate?" You are no better than the people here in the US who defend racial profiling. I may be anti-religion, but even I understand that profiling people based on religion is stupid. You fail to acknowledge that, as brought up before by X5Dragon, maybe these people just have poorer economic standing, can't afford to fight costly cases, link between poverty and crime, etc. And, honestly, the ad hominem is making you look worse. Tell us to shut up and/or fuck off all you want. No one's going to do either one because what you said is no different from what your typical right-wing extremist racist over here in America would say.

If anything, this is just confirmation bias at its finest, and you're just interpreting the information in a way to fit your racist beliefs and just offhand rejecting any evidence that contradicts your predetermined viewpoint.