I don't know if it should go A-, but I'd like to confirm for those skeptical that this set is legit. Change Bulletproof to Overgrow though, as it OHKOs the Latis with Seed Bomb when in Overgrow range, (even if it seems counterproductive with Drain Punch, you'll be in Overgrow range for at least your first attack.)
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
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RichieTheGarchomp
Banned deucer.
Trick Room is gimmicky at the most and requires way too much support. Thats why I dont like MCam at all. Speaking of MCam, can we just drop this thing to C? He has like no use outside of TR, and no offensive wall should have the base speed of 20. TR requires at least 3 support mons for TR, and if you need half a support team to make a pokemon that doesnt even hit that hard sometimes. Still, when he actually gets better, C is fine for him now.
Also Sub Salac Chesnaught is a monster but that doesnt mean it should rise to A-. However I do agree it should as Birdspam got much less common and its typing is good.
Also Sub Salac Chesnaught is a monster but that doesnt mean it should rise to A-. However I do agree it should as Birdspam got much less common and its typing is good.
Mega Camerupt is fine where it is. It doesn't totally depend on Trick Room to function since it has decent bulk, an SR neutrality, and few weaknesses so it can afford to take a hit and nuke something back.
im on mobile so i cant really add too much but i do agree with chesnaught moving up. not for the bd set (like what) but for the fact that its a gr8 tank with unique typing that has large niches over ferro, like not being trapped by mag, countering megalop and landog better, and having a speed that can actually let it outpace stuff like azu. i havent really used the bd set but it seems really gimmicky? what does it do that breloom or azu doesnt do better
IMO, SubSalac relies far too much on the surprise factor to be considered an A- Pokemon. Yes, it's nigh impossible to wall at +6, but even after its Salac boost, it's fairly easily revengeable due to its lack of a defensive investment and a fairly low base speed (for example, Mega Lop still outspeeds it when it's at +1 and does up to 67% with HJK, LO Breloom does up to 44% with Mach Punch, Mamo 2HKOs with Ice Shard, etc), and it's very difficult to set up with against an opponent who expects it - and given the fact that SS Chesnaught fits onto very different teams than its defensive counterparts, most good players are going to expect it. It just isn't an A rank Pokemon to me.
I agree actually, that's why I said I wasn't terribly sure it should go A- on the basis of that set. I think B+ is fine for Chesnaught right now too, but it is kind of one of those borderline cases imo.
I don't think Chesnaught should rise. Bare in mind that it is primarily used as a utility physical wall with its 88/122 defences, leech seed, spikes and super fang (this is actually very effective) support. Yes, the belly drum set is somewhat viable but it is still a very niche set and it shouldn't be considered a raise due to it.
Chesnaught faces competition from Ferrothorn, has a lot of weaknesses, can't take special hits well and can be worn down by toxic. I'm not saying Ferrothorn outclasses it, it's just that for a team needing a bulky grass type, Ferrothorn usually does the job better. B+ is fine IMO.
Chesnaught faces competition from Ferrothorn, has a lot of weaknesses, can't take special hits well and can be worn down by toxic. I'm not saying Ferrothorn outclasses it, it's just that for a team needing a bulky grass type, Ferrothorn usually does the job better. B+ is fine IMO.
Chesnaught has the distinction of the only pokemon in the game with Belly Drum and a STAB physical draining move. Azumarill has BD+Aqua Jet, but no method of healing itself beyond Sitrus Berry. Breloom doesn't have BD in the first place (though SD Poison Heal is good.)
I don't think Chesnaught should rise cause of this set, as fun as it is to use (some teams it just wastes, like literal 6-0's with no effort in my relatively limited experience in using it but it's just on the ladder) but even without it it's a very effective defensive grass, and without Greninja it's easier to use it over Ferrothorn so maybe it should have more discussion.
Ferrothorn checks almost entirely different things. It will never stand up to Mega Lopunny, for one thing, and Chesnaught has a better time checking physical ground due to a resistance to Earthquake.
With Protect it could kinda screw over non sub/pup/encore Lopunny, but yeah.
The SalacDrum Chesnaught set sounds really cool, if totally gimmicky, might catch a fair few people off guard, though it (sort of) loses it's ability to switch into a knock off if it's (one of your) wincon(s), I don't see Chesnaught rising up in rank due to this set however, it's just a niche (but cool!) option.
Yeah, Chesnaught is a cool and underrated Pokemon, but I'm opposed to it rising above the B's. While it does wall Landorus-T, Mega Lopunny, Mega Gyarados, Diggersby, Terrakion, and Tyranitar, it gets forced out by so many Pokemon, including Mega Sableye, Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria, Mega Charizard X, Mega Gardevoir, Heatran, Latias, Latios, any Mega Scizor with Roost, Talonflame, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Diancie, Mega Gallade, Mega Pinsir, (Mega) Slowbro, and Mega Aerodactyl. I'm not saying that Chesnaught is really bad, as it does its job of walling the mentioned threats well, but a rise to A- doesn't seem fitting when it has so many things against it. Keep Chesnaught at B+.
I've thought of defensive Chesnaught as a borderline A-/B+ threat for a while now, and I think its offensive set pushes it over the line to A-.
First off, its defensive set is absolutely gold right now. Thanks to its typing, bulk, and access to the rare Spiky Shield, Chesnaught is capable of going up against some of the most threatening offensive Pokemon in the metagame, including Landorus-T, Mega Lopunny, Bisharp, Mega Gyarados, Keldeo, Excadrill, Gyarados, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Breloom, Crawdaunt, Mega Swampert, and Kabutops. Additionally, unlike some defensive Pokemon, it isn't useless against other defensive teams, thanks to its access to Spikes. With Spikes, Chesnaught helps out its team tremendously by weakening their checks and counters. For example, Unaware Clefable needs every bit of its health in order to avoid 2HKOs from the Pokemon it counters, such as Life Orb Thundurus. Throw in one or two (or even three) sets of Spikes on the opponent's side of the field, and now your Thundurus is in pretty good shape. Next, while Spiky Shield is a really good move, you can pass it over in favor of Wood Hammer, which allows you to act, even while defensive, as an offensive check to bulky waters. However, while Grass / Fighting is a solid typing for the reasons I mentioned, it's a little annoying thanks to its Fire, Psychic, Ice, Fire, and Flying weaknesses. Thankfully, BirdSpam is declining, but Talonflame is still very relevant. Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Altaria, Mega Metagross, and especially Mega Sableye are other mons that care little about what Chesnaught has to do (however, it can still set spikes / seeds on all except Sableye them). A pretty similar defensive Pokemon, and not just in that it's also a Grass-type, is Celebi. Celebi has a lot of exploitable weaknesses, more even than Chesnaught, and yet it still is viable enough for A-. Perhaps Celebi can wall more mons, and sure, Recover > leech seed + drain punch, but Chesnaught's better bulk + access to Spikes puts it on equal defensive footing to Celebi in my opinion.
Count the number of Pokemon that threaten out defensive Chesnaught from S to A-. I counted 26. Now count the ones that threaten out all forms of Celebi. I counted 22. I know this isn't a perfect measure of viability by any means, considering the total possible scenarios + other sets of chesnaught and celebi, but it should show that being forced out by an extremely large amount of Pokemon doesn't, or shouldn't, prohibit a defensive mon from being considered A-.
Anyway, this isn't the whole picture of Chesnaught. Like Celebi, Chesnaught also has an offensive set, and it works very well due to a combination of chesnaught's traits. (At first I was going to explain the basics of the set to everyone, but I'm pretty sure everyone gets it.) Once properly set up, Chesnaught is at +6 attack and +1 speed (faster than Dugtrio), and is behind a Substitute while under 25% health. Overgrow is a great ability in this situation, which allows Chesnaught's +6 Seed Bombs to absolutely massacre everything, including resists. However, it isn't ideal to stay low on health for a very long time, and thanks to Drain Punch, and unlike Azumarill, Chesnaught doesn't have to. Everything faster than Dugtrio is really annoying for Chesnaught (Mega Zam, Talonflame, Mega Dactyl, Beedrill), so they NEED to be taken care of for the set to work. However, Chesnaught's sheer power catches a lot of people off guard, and its BD set isn't exactly unreliable, thanks to the large amount of Pokemon it can set up on. Also worth mentioning, a large amount of the Pokemon that threaten out the defensive set are beaten by the Belly Drum set, including Latios, Latias, Heatran, Mega Scizor, Mega Diancie, Mega Sableye (BD chesnaught sets up on it), Mega Charizard-Y, Mega Charizard-X, Mega Slowbro, Mega Gallade, Mega Gardevoir, and many more, which further adds to the set's capability. Mega Aerodactyl, Talonflame, Pinsir etc are all still very annoying though (although the former two lose if Chesnaught is behind a sub).
Chesnaught isn't a perfect mon by any means, as it, like Celebi, is forced out by a lot of Pokemon. However, its defensive set walls a lot of top tier Pokemon, and provides Spikes utility for the team, while its offensive set is highly unpredictable, beats many of its defensive set's checks, and while needing quite a bit of support, it nearly always pulls its weight if it's used properly. I'd say that you could easily argue that its defensive set is worth A- over B+, and its offensive set further supports this claim.
First off, its defensive set is absolutely gold right now. Thanks to its typing, bulk, and access to the rare Spiky Shield, Chesnaught is capable of going up against some of the most threatening offensive Pokemon in the metagame, including Landorus-T, Mega Lopunny, Bisharp, Mega Gyarados, Keldeo, Excadrill, Gyarados, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Breloom, Crawdaunt, Mega Swampert, and Kabutops. Additionally, unlike some defensive Pokemon, it isn't useless against other defensive teams, thanks to its access to Spikes. With Spikes, Chesnaught helps out its team tremendously by weakening their checks and counters. For example, Unaware Clefable needs every bit of its health in order to avoid 2HKOs from the Pokemon it counters, such as Life Orb Thundurus. Throw in one or two (or even three) sets of Spikes on the opponent's side of the field, and now your Thundurus is in pretty good shape. Next, while Spiky Shield is a really good move, you can pass it over in favor of Wood Hammer, which allows you to act, even while defensive, as an offensive check to bulky waters. However, while Grass / Fighting is a solid typing for the reasons I mentioned, it's a little annoying thanks to its Fire, Psychic, Ice, Fire, and Flying weaknesses. Thankfully, BirdSpam is declining, but Talonflame is still very relevant. Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Altaria, Mega Metagross, and especially Mega Sableye are other mons that care little about what Chesnaught has to do (however, it can still set spikes / seeds on all except Sableye them). A pretty similar defensive Pokemon, and not just in that it's also a Grass-type, is Celebi. Celebi has a lot of exploitable weaknesses, more even than Chesnaught, and yet it still is viable enough for A-. Perhaps Celebi can wall more mons, and sure, Recover > leech seed + drain punch, but Chesnaught's better bulk + access to Spikes puts it on equal defensive footing to Celebi in my opinion.
Count the number of Pokemon that threaten out defensive Chesnaught from S to A-. I counted 26. Now count the ones that threaten out all forms of Celebi. I counted 22. I know this isn't a perfect measure of viability by any means, considering the total possible scenarios + other sets of chesnaught and celebi, but it should show that being forced out by an extremely large amount of Pokemon doesn't, or shouldn't, prohibit a defensive mon from being considered A-.
Anyway, this isn't the whole picture of Chesnaught. Like Celebi, Chesnaught also has an offensive set, and it works very well due to a combination of chesnaught's traits. (At first I was going to explain the basics of the set to everyone, but I'm pretty sure everyone gets it.) Once properly set up, Chesnaught is at +6 attack and +1 speed (faster than Dugtrio), and is behind a Substitute while under 25% health. Overgrow is a great ability in this situation, which allows Chesnaught's +6 Seed Bombs to absolutely massacre everything, including resists. However, it isn't ideal to stay low on health for a very long time, and thanks to Drain Punch, and unlike Azumarill, Chesnaught doesn't have to. Everything faster than Dugtrio is really annoying for Chesnaught (Mega Zam, Talonflame, Mega Dactyl, Beedrill), so they NEED to be taken care of for the set to work. However, Chesnaught's sheer power catches a lot of people off guard, and its BD set isn't exactly unreliable, thanks to the large amount of Pokemon it can set up on. Also worth mentioning, a large amount of the Pokemon that threaten out the defensive set are beaten by the Belly Drum set, including Latios, Latias, Heatran, Mega Scizor, Mega Diancie, Mega Sableye (BD chesnaught sets up on it), Mega Charizard-Y, Mega Charizard-X, Mega Slowbro, Mega Gallade, Mega Gardevoir, and many more, which further adds to the set's capability. Mega Aerodactyl, Talonflame, Pinsir etc are all still very annoying though (although the former two lose if Chesnaught is behind a sub).
Chesnaught isn't a perfect mon by any means, as it, like Celebi, is forced out by a lot of Pokemon. However, its defensive set walls a lot of top tier Pokemon, and provides Spikes utility for the team, while its offensive set is highly unpredictable, beats many of its defensive set's checks, and while needing quite a bit of support, it nearly always pulls its weight if it's used properly. I'd say that you could easily argue that its defensive set is worth A- over B+, and its offensive set further supports this claim.
I agree with quite a few points here, but I honestly do not feel that Chesnaught's offensive set is effective enough to push it to an A- rank. The argument for versatility works with Pokemon such as M-Altaria, the now thankfully banned M-Lucario, Zard X etc because that versatility creates unpredictability - it's not easy to figure out what set you're facing, and if you guess wrong, you stand to lose quite a bit. This is not the case with Chesnaught. The fact that 'a large amount of the Pokemon that threaten out the defensive sets are beaten by the Belly Drum set' really isn't as relevant as it might initially seem, simply because Chesnaught never really keeps you guessing as to which set it's running. Offensive and defensive variants differ so wildly and entirely, both in the manner in which they are played and the teams they are played on, that it should be manifestly obvious to any experienced battler which set they're facing, if not from team preview then the very first time Chesnaught enters the battle. Offensive Chesnaught might beat out Latias, Latios, etc (well, if they switch in on a Substitute), but it needs to wait for the late game to do so without neutering itself subsequently, and in doing so is forced to show its hand.
SubBD Chesnaught is okay, but I don't think that Chesnaught should move up to A-. If anything, the defensive set has gotten worse in this metagame due to the popularity of Mega Sableye, which turns it into a liability with Magic Bounce and setup potential, as well as Pokemon like Mega Metagross, Talonflame, Mega Diancie, Latios/Latias, Mega Charizard Y (gaining popularity!), Clefable, and Mega Altaria that are found on many of the most successful teams at the moment. It does deal with a fair amount of threatening offensive Pokemon, that is true, but I think it is being overestimated a bit in how well it handles some of them. It can pivot into Landorus-T, but the Landorus-T user just gets chip damage and momentum so it's still a good situation for them; SubSD versions can even flat-out set up on it. It's not really a good Keldeo check at all because a Scald burn renders it heavily crippled and moreover unable to deal with Chesnaught. If the Chesnaught doesn't have Wood Hammer, SubCM Keldeo just sets up on it at that point, or Choice Specs variants can just hit it up with a strong Hydro Pump (which does about half) or even an Icy Wind (which tears right through it). Though, I'd argue it needs Wood Hammer because otherwise it loses to SubDD Mega Gyarados, so Keldeo shouldn't be able to set up on it. Furthermore, it completely loses to SubDD normal Gyarados whether it runs Spiky Shield (to block Bounce) or Wood Hammer (to break the Sub), so Aragorn the King it can't handle normal Gyarados at all.
Moreover, it can be really hard to justify the use of Chesnaught over other bulky Grass-types, such as Ferrothorn and Celebi. Both of these Pokemon (that is, if Celebi is running a spread with Defense investment) fare well against Azumarill and Mega Diancie, while Chesnaught is outright slaughtered by them. Ferrothorn can provide Spikes support as well while still providing a Mega Gyarados check, punishing Landorus-T for using U-turn, checking the Latis, and providing a lot of defensive utility on the whole. Celebi is an excellent answer to a metric ton of Pokemon at the moment in addition to the ones already mentioned, such as Azumarill (even CB variants with the physically defensive spread), Keldeo, non-Sludge Wave Landorus-I, Latis, Thundurus, Manaphy, Raikou, Mega Lopunny, Thundurus, Mega Slowbro... In addition to this, it has an absolutely incredible support movepool with access to Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Healing Wish, SubPass, NastyPass, and SD Pass, which allows it to be molded to fit almost any team effectively. While Chesnaught does handle a unique set of threats in some ways, especially Bisharp and Life Orb Excadrill, many teams opt to handle these specific threats via other means and run a different bulky Grass-type that is arguably more effective on the whole. This is not to say that Chesnaught is a bad Pokemon, but there's no doubt that it faces rather significant competition for the role of a bulky Grass-type despite offering certain unique traits.
The offensive SubBD set is an entirely different beast and can be effective in its own right, but it's rather matchup reliant and can struggle to set up at times. Don't get me wrong, it can sweep under the right conditions, but achieving those conditions is exactly the problem. In reality, against offense it has to lose its Substitute in order to set up a Belly Drum and is prone to being revenge killed by priority. Choice Scarf users don't exactly care about the boost from Salac and can easily revenge kill a 25% Chesnaught. I don't buy the unpredictability argument because you can usually spy an offensive set from a mile away just given the nature of the opponent's team. Even if it achieves the optimal setup conditions and has both a Sub and Belly Drum up, certain Pokemon like Talonflame, Mega Altaria, Unaware Clefable, Mega Venusaur, and Celebi can still give it problems. There's a number of Pokemon that can outspeed it at +1 as well, including Mega Manectric, Mega Lopunny, Tornadus-T, and Mega Beedrill, all of which are highly effective Pokemon in OU. I acknowledge that SubBD can sweep, sometimes, especially if the opponent doesn't know the set; however, assuming they know the set and have an idea of what's coming, it isn't exactly the hardest thing in the world to stop. For now, I think Chesnaught has enough flaws and competition to stay in B+.
Moreover, it can be really hard to justify the use of Chesnaught over other bulky Grass-types, such as Ferrothorn and Celebi. Both of these Pokemon (that is, if Celebi is running a spread with Defense investment) fare well against Azumarill and Mega Diancie, while Chesnaught is outright slaughtered by them. Ferrothorn can provide Spikes support as well while still providing a Mega Gyarados check, punishing Landorus-T for using U-turn, checking the Latis, and providing a lot of defensive utility on the whole. Celebi is an excellent answer to a metric ton of Pokemon at the moment in addition to the ones already mentioned, such as Azumarill (even CB variants with the physically defensive spread), Keldeo, non-Sludge Wave Landorus-I, Latis, Thundurus, Manaphy, Raikou, Mega Lopunny, Thundurus, Mega Slowbro... In addition to this, it has an absolutely incredible support movepool with access to Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Healing Wish, SubPass, NastyPass, and SD Pass, which allows it to be molded to fit almost any team effectively. While Chesnaught does handle a unique set of threats in some ways, especially Bisharp and Life Orb Excadrill, many teams opt to handle these specific threats via other means and run a different bulky Grass-type that is arguably more effective on the whole. This is not to say that Chesnaught is a bad Pokemon, but there's no doubt that it faces rather significant competition for the role of a bulky Grass-type despite offering certain unique traits.
The offensive SubBD set is an entirely different beast and can be effective in its own right, but it's rather matchup reliant and can struggle to set up at times. Don't get me wrong, it can sweep under the right conditions, but achieving those conditions is exactly the problem. In reality, against offense it has to lose its Substitute in order to set up a Belly Drum and is prone to being revenge killed by priority. Choice Scarf users don't exactly care about the boost from Salac and can easily revenge kill a 25% Chesnaught. I don't buy the unpredictability argument because you can usually spy an offensive set from a mile away just given the nature of the opponent's team. Even if it achieves the optimal setup conditions and has both a Sub and Belly Drum up, certain Pokemon like Talonflame, Mega Altaria, Unaware Clefable, Mega Venusaur, and Celebi can still give it problems. There's a number of Pokemon that can outspeed it at +1 as well, including Mega Manectric, Mega Lopunny, Tornadus-T, and Mega Beedrill, all of which are highly effective Pokemon in OU. I acknowledge that SubBD can sweep, sometimes, especially if the opponent doesn't know the set; however, assuming they know the set and have an idea of what's coming, it isn't exactly the hardest thing in the world to stop. For now, I think Chesnaught has enough flaws and competition to stay in B+.
I really like these two, but the cost of using them is simply too high for the neutral C rank. Using Mega Aggron in XY, when there were less Megas competing for the slot? Sure, you can build a team with it and not sacrifice too much. Same with Blastoise, even though it really should have dropped down a peg or two when AV Azu was all the rage. In ORAS? There's a lot more that you are passing up to use these guys. Granted, they both still have usable niches, so they shouldn't be kicked off the list entirely. I can see a team having a use for either of them, however it seems like the cost of using them is just a little bit more noticable than Mega Glalie or Mega Camel (who I view as more of a C rank anyway, but that's beside the point). At least Glalie has the potential to really punish some slow teams and literally blow a hole in them. Aggron handles a few threats really well, but several other non-Mega tanks exist that can do a reasonably similar job. Blastoise seems like an awesome spinner with great coverage, but it gets worn down really fast because it doesn't have any reliable recovery and can't hold Leftovers. Every defensive Mega has the issue of not holding Lefties, but Blastoise comes in on hazards almost every time. That 12% can really stack up after a few turns of spinning over a match. So yeah, drop each of them a rank or two because they are really getting squeezed with the increased oppertunity cost.
It kinda surprised me how little people are talking about Mega Altaria's S rank nom after Recreant brought it up 12 pages ago (I went looking for the post on page 20-ish...).
Mega Altaria is probably one of the best mons in A+. It has amazing versatility, a great typing, ability, stat spread, and movepool, and excels at both offensive and defensive roles. It's one of the best Dragon Dancers in OU (and one of the mons that dethroned CharX, a former S rank), and one of the most versatile defensive mons in the tier. It has an immunity and seven resistances, which combined with its huge bulk allows it to handle a large chunk of OU depending on the set.
It's also the bulkiest Fairy in OU (physically):
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 372-440 (94.4 - 111.6%)
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 288-342 (81.3 - 96.6%)
Altaria's higher offensive power and elemental resistances make it a better check to mons such as Thundurus and Mega Manectric, for example.
Here's a list of things that Mega Altaria can check or counter in the higher ranks:
Mega Sableye
Mega Lopunny
Charizard X and Y
Heatran
Thundurus
Manectric
Raikou
Mega Gyarados
Keldeo
Latios
Latias
Ferrothorn
Garchomp
Tyranitar
Celebi
Mega Heracross
ect.
By running either a slow, bulky, offensive, or speedy set, it has either the speed, power, or bulk needed to handle a huge number of mons in OU. It has plenty of switchin opportunities, can run both EQ and Fire Blast to beat or wear down its checks, and its support movepool is huge. Compared to Clefable it has a higher Speed tier (great for Bisharp), much better offensive presence, and some crucial resistances. Higher Speed makes it a better Heal Bell user, for example.
It doesn't have that many flaws, either. It's great against all team archetypes, and always pulls its weight when I've used it. Its good matchups give it a low opportunity cost, and any shortcomings are mitigated by its sheer usefulness. It's checked by Steel, Poison and Fire types, but very few of these can be called counters, as they can't switch in safely (Heatran, Mega Metagross, ect.).
It fulfills the S rank criteria for the defensive definition, and arguably the support one too. Mega Altaria for S rank.
Mega Altaria is probably one of the best mons in A+. It has amazing versatility, a great typing, ability, stat spread, and movepool, and excels at both offensive and defensive roles. It's one of the best Dragon Dancers in OU (and one of the mons that dethroned CharX, a former S rank), and one of the most versatile defensive mons in the tier. It has an immunity and seven resistances, which combined with its huge bulk allows it to handle a large chunk of OU depending on the set.
It's also the bulkiest Fairy in OU (physically):
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 372-440 (94.4 - 111.6%)
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 288-342 (81.3 - 96.6%)
Altaria's higher offensive power and elemental resistances make it a better check to mons such as Thundurus and Mega Manectric, for example.
Here's a list of things that Mega Altaria can check or counter in the higher ranks:
Mega Sableye
Mega Lopunny
Charizard X and Y
Heatran
Thundurus
Manectric
Raikou
Mega Gyarados
Keldeo
Latios
Latias
Ferrothorn
Garchomp
Tyranitar
Celebi
Mega Heracross
ect.
By running either a slow, bulky, offensive, or speedy set, it has either the speed, power, or bulk needed to handle a huge number of mons in OU. It has plenty of switchin opportunities, can run both EQ and Fire Blast to beat or wear down its checks, and its support movepool is huge. Compared to Clefable it has a higher Speed tier (great for Bisharp), much better offensive presence, and some crucial resistances. Higher Speed makes it a better Heal Bell user, for example.
It doesn't have that many flaws, either. It's great against all team archetypes, and always pulls its weight when I've used it. Its good matchups give it a low opportunity cost, and any shortcomings are mitigated by its sheer usefulness. It's checked by Steel, Poison and Fire types, but very few of these can be called counters, as they can't switch in safely (Heatran, Mega Metagross, ect.).
It fulfills the S rank criteria for the defensive definition, and arguably the support one too. Mega Altaria for S rank.
I would like to discuss maybe moving conk to B+
Lately we have seen a huge increase for metagross usage due to it being one of the biggest offensive threats in the tier. With this several checks have become significantly more popular in fear of being swept by this threat while certain mons who are crushed by meta have seen less usage. Some checks are Rotom-w, bisharp, Scarf lando-t, talonflame etc. Rotom and bisharp both lose to conk while lando is ohko'd from minus one ice punch after rocks. Talon of course poses a problem but cannot switch in safely. Some powerful counters to conk like mega gard have dropped a bit in usage for a multitude of reasons therefor less conk answers are on teams as of late. Conk also has a favorable matchup against several high tier threats including keldeo, mega lopunny, and mega gyara. Overall I know conk is not A- material but he seems about as viable as some B+ mons so at least I would like to hear some reasons why he is not deserving of B+. Also sorry if I am arguing a point that has been shredded before.
Lately we have seen a huge increase for metagross usage due to it being one of the biggest offensive threats in the tier. With this several checks have become significantly more popular in fear of being swept by this threat while certain mons who are crushed by meta have seen less usage. Some checks are Rotom-w, bisharp, Scarf lando-t, talonflame etc. Rotom and bisharp both lose to conk while lando is ohko'd from minus one ice punch after rocks. Talon of course poses a problem but cannot switch in safely. Some powerful counters to conk like mega gard have dropped a bit in usage for a multitude of reasons therefor less conk answers are on teams as of late. Conk also has a favorable matchup against several high tier threats including keldeo, mega lopunny, and mega gyara. Overall I know conk is not A- material but he seems about as viable as some B+ mons so at least I would like to hear some reasons why he is not deserving of B+. Also sorry if I am arguing a point that has been shredded before.
I'd like to see Dugtrio rise up from C- to C.
With the release of Contrary Serperior, and the rise in Heatran usage with the new ORAS megas, there is more reason to run Dugtrio, and there is a smaller chance of it being dead weight. With Focus Sash, it acts as a shaky check to some set up sweepers and is a potent revenge killer of anything weak to the EdgeQuake combo due to its high speed and decent attack stat (only one base point lower than Talonflame).
Granted, when the opposing team doesn't have something it can trap, Dugtrio is almost dead weight, but there are a multitude of things it can come in on, albeit not safely, that it can safely OHKO
Heatran: 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 448-532 (116.3 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tyranitar: 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 218-258 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 580-684 (170 - 200.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
non-Scarf Excadrill after rocks: 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 356-420 (98.6 - 116.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Charizard-Y: 252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 384-456 (129.2 - 153.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Talonflame: 252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 420-496 (131.6 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (granted, sash must be intact in order to revenge kill)
Overall, Dugtrio has a hard time switching in but it can take on a lot of common threats, and with its decent support movepool and multiple attacking options (Sucker Punch to surprise Latis which is mostly shit lmao) Dugtrio can pick which threats it needs to get rid of. With good double-switching and prediction, this mon can change the tide of the game, which is why I'm nominating Dugtrio for C rank.
With the release of Contrary Serperior, and the rise in Heatran usage with the new ORAS megas, there is more reason to run Dugtrio, and there is a smaller chance of it being dead weight. With Focus Sash, it acts as a shaky check to some set up sweepers and is a potent revenge killer of anything weak to the EdgeQuake combo due to its high speed and decent attack stat (only one base point lower than Talonflame).
Granted, when the opposing team doesn't have something it can trap, Dugtrio is almost dead weight, but there are a multitude of things it can come in on, albeit not safely, that it can safely OHKO
Heatran: 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 448-532 (116.3 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tyranitar: 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 218-258 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 580-684 (170 - 200.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
non-Scarf Excadrill after rocks: 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 356-420 (98.6 - 116.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Charizard-Y: 252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 384-456 (129.2 - 153.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Talonflame: 252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 420-496 (131.6 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (granted, sash must be intact in order to revenge kill)
Overall, Dugtrio has a hard time switching in but it can take on a lot of common threats, and with its decent support movepool and multiple attacking options (Sucker Punch to surprise Latis which is mostly shit lmao) Dugtrio can pick which threats it needs to get rid of. With good double-switching and prediction, this mon can change the tide of the game, which is why I'm nominating Dugtrio for C rank.
Dugtrio is great and all, but showing a calc that something that Dugtrio can OHKO something 4x weak to ground-type attacks with Earthquake really isnt getting you anywhere. We all know that Heatran dies to an EQ.
Anyways, I think it was proposed earlier but Dugtrio probably deserves to rise to C, as it traps the checks and counters for a ton of threats such as clefable, mega charizards, mega pidgeot, etc.
The question I have for Blastoise is that is that enough to save it? For a Mega it's aggressively mediocre and we already have Starmie, Latis, and Excadrill for hazard removal without the massive opportunity cost. It's one of those Mons that isn't exactly bad but the cost of using it is way too high to justify doing so.---> C-
---> C- or D
I really like these two, but the cost of using them is simply too high for the neutral C rank. Using Mega Aggron in XY, when there were less Megas competing for the slot? Sure, you can build a team with it and not sacrifice too much. Same with Blastoise, even though it really should have dropped down a peg or two when AV Azu was all the rage. In ORAS? There's a lot more that you are passing up to use these guys. Granted, they both still have usable niches, so they shouldn't be kicked off the list entirely. I can see a team having a use for either of them, however it seems like the cost of using them is just a little bit more noticable than Mega Glalie or Mega Camel (who I view as more of a C rank anyway, but that's beside the point). At least Glalie has the potential to really punish some slow teams and literally blow a hole in them. Aggron handles a few threats really well, but several other non-Mega tanks exist that can do a reasonably similar job. Blastoise seems like an awesome spinner with great coverage, but it gets worn down really fast because it doesn't have any reliable recovery and can't hold Leftovers. Every defensive Mega has the issue of not holding Lefties, but Blastoise comes in on hazards almost every time. That 12% can really stack up after a few turns of spinning over a match. So yeah, drop each of them a rank or two because they are really getting squeezed with the increased oppertunity cost.
Also, I really think Mega Latios should drop to somewhere to C or even D. Like with Blastoise it's not horrible, but you give up the ability to run one of the best Defoggers in the tier for a slightly bulkier All-Out-Attacker version of it. Somebody said before that it's a "luxury" Mega in the sense that if you somehow built a good team that didn't need a Defog Latios AND you have the slot free then you can go for it without any regrets, but the fact is it's kind of a pain to do actively do so and it makes it ridiculously unsplashable. I feel like this huge opportunity cost and the lack of improvement over the original bar some bulk isn't B-Rank worthy.
I disagree with the proposition. M-Latios is literally a better latios, meaning that if you lack a mega evolution and you have a Latios you might as well use it. If anything, it should move up to B as it does everything which Latios can with better bulk, similar power without recoil and an identical speed tier, making it ideal if you lack a mega evolution.
Ignore this, keep Hitmontop unranked.
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His whole post was literally about Latiosite being a Luxury Mega; he never denied it was better in general than Latios. All he was saying is that the opportunity cost is too high because with all the very good Megas these days the times you'd make a team with both Latios and no Mega are very, very few. It's definitely not something you can build around or even consider as an option during teambuilding; in all honesty all of the Megas in the B ranks and possibly most in the C ranks have more use than Mega Latios.
Foresight is bounced back by Magic Bounce. I don't think Hitmontop should be ranked, it seems pretty horrible and doesn't have a noteworthy niche that isn't outclassed by something else.
IMO, the issue is right there. A good A+ Pokemon doesn't automatically make it a candidate for S rank.
I've used M-Altaria and although it is very good, it is a 'jack of all trades' Pokemon. The DD set typically runs adamant and thus is still outsped by 135+ speed and scarfed Pokemon at +1. The roost + 3 attacks is too slow. The bulky DD sub mono attacking set is harder to set up with and faces competition from regular gyarados, which is bulkier, has two attacks and good recovery with leftovers and bounce. Ive always found the bulky support set to be somewhat redudant to Sylveon and although M-Altaria can choose to go physically or specially defensive, I just feel that the opportunity cost for that mega slot is too fierce for M-Altaria to function as a cleric, especially since stall teams will reserve that slot for M-Sableye and probably be using Chansey anyway.
Personally, I've found the DD set to be the most effective and M-Altaria should stay as a solid A+ Pokemon. IMO, S rank is for metagame defining Pokemon that you must have at least 1 check for and M-Metagross, M-Sableye and Landorus-T fit that criteria well. I agree with M-Lopunny moving down since Greninja's ban has increased usage for bulky psychics and fairies and since I was on the fence on whether it should have been S rank before, this definitely makes it A+. The only candidates for S rank in my eyes are Clefable (which I don't think should rise but can see why it could) and maybe Keldeo. But M-Altaria needs to stay A+.
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