Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[Pooch13]

Something I thought I'd mention here. People who say Mega Altaria is just 'meh', obviously haven't used it to its full potential, or used it at all for that matter. The reason I nominated it for S in the first place was because of its versatility. It has a fair amount of 4MSS, but it makes up for that with everything else. When you see an Altaria in the team preview, you usually don't know what you're going to be up against, unless it is very obvious that the team is designated to help a certain set. When people call the special or mixed set just medicore, it honestly pains me to see. Having so many options on all fronts, including defensive, makes Altaria is a complete monster in nearly every single battle I've used it in. It's a lot like Greninja. There are very, VERY few reliable switch ins. Mainly Poison types like M-Venu and Amonguss, but that's about it, neither of which are very common. Ferro gets nailed by Fire Blast, Heatran by EQ, so on. The all out offensive set with Hyper Voice (Return), EQ, Fire Blast and Roost is something that you really don't want to be facing in battle.
Tl;dr: if you want to call Altaria bad, you have to use it properly first, and then you'll see how powerful it is.

Dunno if you re talking bout me but i said the special set is meh COMPARED to the physical one, stab pixilate hyper voice hits like a brick too but imo physical or mixed are way better, and ive faced a few amount to know that the offwnsive set that causes me the least amount of problems is the full special set. Also DD is better than 3 attacks +roost since gengar can come in on eq, uninvested fir blast and return and altaria or something else is taking a STAB sludge bomb. Also Tentacruel can threaten it comung in on FB and return and doing a lot with sludge bomb leaving mega altaria prone to revenge killers.

EDIT : also its not nice to say that just because someone doesnt think a pokemons is as good as you think it is, he has not used it properly. Everyine experiences different scenarios and i for one have not had many troubles with mega alt in comparison to mega gyara for example.

 

[bludz]

Versatility is definitely something that should be considered in tiering. If a pokemon has 4 or 5 sets that are fairly different and are all A rank viability, I'd say it's probably an A+ pokemon because it fits into more teams and is harder to plan for when you're playing against it. Seeing Altaria in team preview helps some, but if you assume its the DD set, then you might allow your checks to a special variant be weakened. Of course you can try to guess what it is based on the team build but you won't always be right.

IMO it could move up to S, but I don't think it will yet just because it's not super popular at the moment due to the metagame still settling in and people trying out a bunch of different megas. Once things fall more into place I suspect Altaria will see an increase in usage and could definitely move up.

Of course, the easiest way to move into S rank is to have 1 S rank set

 

[TFL]

I think people are blowing the versatility argument way out of proportion. If it was that much of a thing then Charizard would be S rank.

 

[D_what]

If there's this much back-and-forth about whether or not so much things should be in S or not, then that sounds like a problem with either the definition or people's understanding of the definition of S. Arguably it includes "things that define the meta" and "things that are notably better than the majority of A+ 'mons", and those things don't have to overlap. Pick your poison? Choosing both as applicable means a potentially large S rank.

 

[Backburst]

I think people are blowing the versatility argument way out of proportion. If it was that much of a thing then Charizard would be S rank.

Not really. Both Zards were S-rank when X and Y first started, but then the meta calmed down and Zard-Y was found to have one set, with a small variation in it's 4th move. Zard-X stayed S-rank until the beginning of ORAS, when M-sableye took over as the number one bulky burn spreader. Gaining competition from M-Altaria as a bulky DD user, and Crunch being added to Megados' move pool really put to the pressure on Zard-X. He's now down to choosing Jolly or Adamant, and if he wants Roost or EQ. His bulky will-o-wisp set is still usable, but it makes you wonder why you're not using M-sableye, who can't be hit with status unless it's a secondary effect, and has less weaknesses. (Mega-loppuny and Fairies).

 

[Salemance]

Not really. Both Zards were S-rank when X and Y first started, but then the meta calmed down and Zard-Y was found to have one set, with a small variation in it's 4th move. Zard-X stayed S-rank until the beginning of ORAS, when M-sableye took over as the number one bulky burn spreader. Gaining competition from M-Altaria as a bulky DD user, and Crunch being added to Megados' move pool really put to the pressure on Zard-X. He's now down to choosing Jolly or Adamant, and if he wants Roost or EQ. His bulky will-o-wisp set is still usable, but it makes you wonder why you're not using M-sableye, who can't be hit with status unless it's a secondary effect, and has less weaknesses. (Mega-loppuny and Fairies).

For its sake, Char Y did get a nice defensive set going later on in the meta to help defeat Mega Mawile and the other threats with its nice typing (also took care of Lando-I for most part I think? Been awhile since I discussed that). Still its usual wallbreaking set is its bread and butter but it did have something else it could utilize

 

[Machi]

Landorus-T needs to be moved down to A+, sure its a dominating force in the metagame etc., but its kind of a result of it checking so much stuff . It doesn't outright win games like the other S rank mons are capable of doing. Like, comparatively it'll probably never get a suspect and if it does, 0 chance its banned.

Also, sub categories are unnecessary.

He doesn't need to 6-0 teams as his scarf set isn't meant to sweep but act as a pivot. Which is where Lando-T excels at, as a pivot which is precisely what he is supposed to do switch in on pokemon either check them or regain momentum on your side after the intimidate drop, and his typing helps in this regard.

edit: Also an S rank mon doesn't need to be suspect worthy to be considered S rank. Just look at past S rank mons like Azumarill, Keldeo, or Latios neither in their heyday were close to being suspect worthy but were S rank viable. So being suspect worthy is not a criterion at all.

 

[thegrovylekid]

If there's this much back-and-forth about whether or not so much things should be in S or not, then that sounds like a problem with either the definition or people's understanding of the definition of S. Arguably it includes "things that define the meta" and "things that are notably better than the majority of A+ 'mons", and those things don't have to overlap. Pick your poison? Choosing both as applicable means a potentially large S rank.

Clefable outclasses every other Pokemon in A+ as well as being able to sweep and wall a majority of OU. It sets up easily, takes hits, heals, and sweeps while having immunity to SR, poison, burn, and leech seed, spikes, curse [ghost-type], and recoil from things like iron barbs, rocky helmet, black sludge and life orb. Clefable fits every meaning of the S-Rank description. Clefable to S.

Hawlucha: B+ -> B
Hawlucha is a little too high for what it does, in my opinion. This time, instead of trying to force it, I'll give my opinion, analyze a set, and ask what you think. Here's Hawlucha's smogon set:

Hawlucha @Sitrus berry
Unburden ability
Substitute
Swords dance
Acrobatics
High jump kick
12 HP/ 252 ATK/ 244 Speed
Jolly

With base 118 speed, you'll outspeed a lot. However, you need to use substitute a few times to trigger sitrus berry, since Hawlucha probably won't live a hit anyways. However, Hawlucha has a case of 4MSS, because you are walled by Clefable, MSableye, and Megagross with this set. Seeing as you need swords dance to get Hawlucha to OHKO much and substitute co control when unburden activates, you have to sacrifice one of your STABS to take out these Pokemon, but Clefable most likely has 252/252+ def, so even poison jab isn't 2HKOing, or mostly not even 3HKOing. Look at this:

252+ Atk Hawlucha Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: y 134-158 (34 - 40.1%) -- 35% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And Clefable can just moonblast you to death, even at +0

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 288-338 (96.3 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Hawlucha has even more trouble with Mega Metagross, due to its strongest super-effective attack being Payback, which requires you to take damage first, which will most likely kill you. here's payback before taking damage.

252+ Atk Hawlucha Payback (50 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 78-92 (21.4 - 25.2%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

Here's Megagross's calc:

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 561-660 (187.6 - 220.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, Mega Sableye resists or is hit neutrally by Every attack Hawlucha could possibly have. sure, Hawlucha's good, but it needs a slight drop.

 

[astroboy]

Clefable outclasses every other Pokemon in A+ as well as being able to sweep and wall a majority of OU. It sets up easily, takes hits, heals, and sweeps while having immunity to SR, poison, burn, and leech seed, spikes, curse [ghost-type], and recoil from things like iron barbs, rocky helmet, black sludge and life orb. Clefable fits every meaning of the S-Rank description. Clefable to S.
View attachment 34263
Hawlucha: B+ -> B
Hawlucha is a little too high for what it does, in my opinion. This time, instead of trying to force it, I'll give my opinion, analyze a set, and ask what you think. Here's Hawlucha's smogon set:

Hawlucha @Sitrus berry
Unburden ability
Substitute
Swords dance
Acrobatics
High jump kick
12 HP/ 252 ATK/ 244 Speed
Jolly

With base 118 speed, you'll outspeed a lot. However, you need to use substitute a few times to trigger sitrus berry, since Hawlucha probably won't live a hit anyways. However, Hawlucha has a case of 4MSS, because you are walled by Clefable, MSableye, and Megagross with this set. Seeing as you need swords dance to get Hawlucha to OHKO much and substitute co control when unburden activates, you have to sacrifice one of your STABS to take out these Pokemon, but Clefable most likely has 252/252+ def, so even poison jab isn't 2HKOing, or mostly not even 3HKOing. Look at this:

252+ Atk Hawlucha Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: y 134-158 (34 - 40.1%) -- 35% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And Clefable can just moonblast you to death, even at +0

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 288-338 (96.3 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Hawlucha has even more trouble with Mega Metagross, due to its strongest super-effective attack being Payback, which requires you to take damage first, which will most likely kill you. here's payback before taking damage.
252+ Atk Hawlucha Payback (50 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 78-92 (21.4 - 25.2%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

Here's Megagross's calc:

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 561-660 (187.6 - 220.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, Mega Sableye resists or is hit neutrally by Every attack Hawlucha could possibly have. sure, Hawlucha's good, but it needs a slight drop.

okay so
first off clef doesnt "outclass every mon in a+" like how does clef outlclass mega gyara
anyways, why are you showing calcs that you dont even have on your listed set? why would you ever ever ever run payback on hawlucha. why would you run payback on anything? why poison jab? why do ur calcs have a + attack nature but your hawlucha set listed is jolly? im confused

also sable is immune to hjk and resists... poison jab? why poison jab like i dont get it

 

[Sochlo]

Please only use relevant calcs

+2 252 Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 235-277 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 301-355 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

No one's running Payback Hawlucha. That said Hawlucha wasn't meant to break walls, it's there because of its prowess against Offense and as a late game cleaner and shouldn't be expected to break things like MSableye and Unaware Clef. No actual opinion on the nom, just pointing it out.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Nah, I think Hawlucha is fine where it's at. You seem to be missing the point of Hawlucha from what I can see in that post. Yes, I know it gets taken on by Clefable and mega Sableye to a decent degree, but that doesn't really matter for what Hawlucha does because it is a late game cleaner. Think of it as something like Slurpuff in RU: it shouldn't attempt to sweep while its counters are alive and healthy, but once those are gone, Hawlucha can just run through a weakened team like a hot knife through butter. And it's good at that, because it runs very high BP STAB moves in Acrobatics and High Jump Kick so it hits for alright damage on the get go, and with a Swords Dance boost in tow, it's really hard to stop once its counters are weakened. it also has a nice set of resistances so it can take on stuff like Bisharp, Landorus-T, and several others quite well. Taking on Landorus-T is really awesome for a physical sweeper, as Hawlucha can just set up on it and possibly get its Unburden boost. It also likes Knock off because it can activate Unburden. It does have flaws because it's kind of a do or die Pokemon due to Unburden and it's rather frail, but it's a very deadly cleaner with great STABs and high Speed that make it one heck of a great sweeper. Keep it in B+ imo.

 

[x MAD AXES x]

Hawlucha: B+ -> B
Hawlucha is a little too high for what it does, in my opinion. This time, instead of trying to force it, I'll give my opinion, analyze a set, and ask what you think. Here's Hawlucha's smogon set:

Hawlucha @Sitrus berry
Unburden ability
Substitute
Swords dance
Acrobatics
High jump kick
12 HP/ 252 ATK/ 244 Speed
Jolly

With base 118 speed, you'll outspeed a lot. However, you need to use substitute a few times to trigger sitrus berry, since Hawlucha probably won't live a hit anyways. However, Hawlucha has a case of 4MSS, because you are walled by Clefable, MSableye, and Megagross with this set. Seeing as you need swords dance to get Hawlucha to OHKO much and substitute co control when unburden activates, you have to sacrifice one of your STABS to take out these Pokemon, but Clefable most likely has 252/252+ def, so even poison jab isn't 2HKOing, or mostly not even 3HKOing. Look at this:

252+ Atk Hawlucha Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: y 134-158 (34 - 40.1%) -- 35% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And Clefable can just moonblast you to death, even at +0

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 288-338 (96.3 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Hawlucha has even more trouble with Mega Metagross, due to its strongest super-effective attack being Payback, which requires you to take damage first, which will most likely kill you. here's payback before taking damage.
252+ Atk Hawlucha Payback (50 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 78-92 (21.4 - 25.2%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

Here's Megagross's calc:

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 561-660 (187.6 - 220.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, Mega Sableye resists or is hit neutrally by Every attack Hawlucha could possibly have. sure, Hawlucha's good, but it needs a slight drop.

Hawlucha is meant to clean late game while his checks/counter have been killed or badly damage plus these calcs are relevent to hawlucha and the set you have listed.

 

[Mur]

Gonna talk about a mon who I've only seen mentioned once or twice in here who deserves some love(and a rank up).
So I suggest Omastar to B+. Imo it's way more consistent than kabutops right now because of it's immediate power in both of it's viable sets. Which leads me to another point that our Lord Helix has two usable sets(LO or specs) depending on how you build the team which kabutops cannot do as it simply uses the same moveset with either swords dance or rapid spin in the last slot. Right now I'd say the Omastar+Kingdra core is superior to kabu+kingdra just based off of the consistency and the fact that you have to play around which of the two is specs and which can actually switch up moves on you which should just be enough to move oma up on it's own imo as it's taken over which of the two rock/water swift swimmers can perform better in the meta on it's standard team. Omastar can provide something very important to rain cores in breaking stall to pieces with spikes or shell smash(yes i just went there). Yes, i know why scald is usually chosen over smash but some people who are more real do not fear a little hydro miss can find great use in smash from my experience with it plus it breaks open stall faster than knock off ever could on this set. Keep in mind smash is mainly used for stall and that rain offense has a favorable match up vs offense anyways so having one move that's a liability against a playstyle your entire team already ruins is not too terrible. So I don't continue to rant too much basically boosting up is not too hard against stall and...
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 329-387 (51.2 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
so at the very least oma gets para'd and kills chansey(you can spam softboiled to try to stall out the rain if chansey is trying to check but oma still wins in this situation since you lose nothing from boosting again and completely ravaging it so imo this is a tough situation for the chansey user since their gonna have to try to stall out at most 4 more turns of rain while oma just boosts in your face) and taking out chansey is big against stall since now nothing stops kingdra from getting a kill every time it comes in. Again I apologize for the kinda rant on shell smash but I felt like I needed too since most people disregard it and the ability to break stall more easily within the rain core is big since it opens up a team slot since rain usually needs a dedicated stall breaker so it definitely has a reason to be used. Anyways it's clear that Lord Helix is deserving of being ranked among it's other swift swim brothers in B+.
(Also gonna make a small apology to AM when he sees this since the only posts he's seen from me in the past two days are rants on Lord Helix)

 

[NotSoClutch]

Gonna talk about a mon who I've only seen mentioned once or twice in here who deserves some love(and a rank up).
So I suggest Omastar to B+. Imo it's way more consistent than kabutops right now because of it's immediate power in both of it's viable sets. Which leads me to another point that our Lord Helix has two usable sets(LO or specs) depending on how you build the team which kabutops cannot do as it simply uses the same moveset with either swords dance or rapid spin in the last slot. Right now I'd say the Omastar+Kingdra core is superior to kabu+kingdra just based off of the consistency and the fact that you have to play around which of the two is specs and which can actually switch up moves on you which should just be enough to move oma up on it's own imo as it's taken over which of the two rock/water swift swimmers can perform better in the meta on it's standard team. Omastar can provide something very important to rain cores in breaking stall to pieces with spikes or shell smash(yes i just went there). Yes, i know why scald is usually chosen over smash but some people who are more real do not fear a little hydro miss can find great use in smash from my experience with it plus it breaks open stall faster than knock off ever could on this set. Keep in mind smash is mainly used for stall and that rain offense has a favorable match up vs offense anyways so having one move that's a liability against a playstyle your entire team already ruins is not too terrible. So I don't continue to rant too much basically boosting up is not too hard against stall and...
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 329-387 (51.2 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
so at the very least oma gets para'd and kills chansey(you can spam softboiled to try to stall out the rain if chansey is trying to check but oma still wins in this situation since you lose nothing from boosting again and completely ravaging it so imo this is a tough situation for the chansey user since their gonna have to try to stall out at most 4 more turns of rain while oma just boosts in your face) and taking out chansey is big against stall since now nothing stops kingdra from getting a kill every time it comes in. Again I apologize for the kinda rant on shell smash but I felt like I needed too since most people disregard it and the ability to break stall more easily within the rain core is big since it opens up a team slot since rain usually needs a dedicated stall breaker so it definitely has a reason to be used. Anyways it's clear that Lord Helix is deserving of being ranked among it's other swift swim brothers in B+.
(Also gonna make a small apology to AM when he sees this since the only posts he's seen from me in the past two days are rants on Lord Helix)

The main problem has more to do with it's lack of immediate speed when compared to it's physically based counterpart. Omastar fails to outspeed things like scarf Landorus without running timid and even running timid it fails to outspeed max speed scarf landorus. Kabutops can outspeed even max speed scarf landorus running adamant. Kabutops also doesn't have to rely on setup to get the necessary chip damage on checks to Kingdra like Ferrothorn.

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 192-229 (54.5 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 123-146 (34.9 - 41.4%) -- 74.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 134-159 (38 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Omastar obviously lures different things in than Kabutops, but I don't quite think it's on the same level as Kabutops just yet and it does still have to rely on a move that's only 80% accurate to actually sweep.

 

[TFL]

The main problem has more to do with it's lack of immediate speed when compared to it's physically based counterpart. Omastar fails to outspeed things like scarf Landorus without running timid and even running timid it fails to outspeed max speed scarf landorus. Kabutops can outspeed even max speed scarf landorus running adamant. Kabutops also doesn't have to rely on setup to get the necessary chip damage on checks to Kingdra like Ferrothorn.

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 192-229 (54.5 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 123-146 (34.9 - 41.4%) -- 74.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 134-159 (38 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Omastar obviously lures different things in than Kabutops, but I don't quite think it's on the same level as Kabutops just yet and it does still have to rely on a move that's only 80% accurate to actually sweep.

Kabutops has to rely on both Stone Edge's 80% accuracy and/or prediction. If you use Waterfall instead of using Swords Dance then you are missing kills on Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, and Keldeo. And using Swords Dance is often a risk because of Kabutops' frailty. Then you have mons that can switch in on Kabutops, but not Omastar, like Technician Breloom and Slowbro.

And you don't have to rely on Hydro Pump, it's just better to use it in the beginning for opening holes in the opponent's team. You're totally capable of using Scald to clean late-game. On another note, Omastar is not a lure, but a wallbreaker. One that you rarely have to predict with.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 155-183 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's the calc you should be using.

Both Ferrothorn and Chansey are great switch-ins to Specs Omastar and both are very likely to go down to a couple Hydro Pumps if they lose their item from Omastar's Knock Off. In addition, Omastar can actually beat Celebi.

Lastly, the only relevant mons that outspeed Omastar and not Kabutops are what, Choice Scarf Landorus-T and Mega Sceptile? The former doesn't match up very well vs Rain and is likely to only come in for the revenge kill, while the latter isn't so common in OU. I'd gladly take those cons for those pros any day.

Edit: I was going to add those too, Spooky, but I got tired of writing. Not sure how people can make such long posts *-*

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I was gonna write some stuff but TFL beat me.

But I do want to add on that it's not Omastar's, nor Kabutops', job to beat scarfers. That's for Kingdra, who outspeeds Scarf Latios without even running max investment. Omastar and Kabutops are obviously not very compatible and won't be used on the same team, but I've always thought that there's basically no reason to not use Kingdra on Rain teams, who pairs better with Omastar than Kabutops because their checks (which Omastar can completely shred) overlap more.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Kabutops has to rely on both Stone Edge's 80% accuracy and/or prediction. If you use Waterfall instead of using Swords Dance then you are missing kills on Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, and Keldeo. And using Swords Dance is often a risk because of Kabutops' frailty. Then you have mons that can switch in on Kabutops, but not Omastar, like Technician Breloom and Slowbro.

And you don't have to rely on Hydro Pump, it's just better to use it in the beginning for opening holes in the opponent's team. You're totally capable of using Scald to clean late-game. On another note, Omastar is not a lure, but a wallbreaker. One that you rarely have to predict with.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 155-183 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's the calc you should be using.

Both Ferrothorn and Chansey are great switch-ins to Specs Omastar and both are very likely to go down to a couple Hydro Pumps if they lose their item from Omastar's Knock Off. In addition, Omastar can actually beat Celebi.

Lastly, the only relevant mons that outspeed Omastar and not Kabutops are what, Choice Scarf Landorus-T and Mega Sceptile? The former doesn't match up very well vs Rain and is likely to only come in for the revenge kill, while the latter isn't so common in OU. I'd gladly take those pros over those cons any day.

If you need to beat Chansey and Ferrothorn, isn't Keldeo the better straight wallbreaker as it is still fantastic outside of rain as well? Outspeeding scarf lando may seem arbitrary, but it is a surprisingly potent check to a lot of common rain Pokemon.

252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 284-336 (94.6 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 246-290 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 316-372 (105.6 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Most grounded electrics are OHKOed by EQ etc.

Obviously Omastar is great in rain and I didn't mean to say that it didn't have a great niche, but I don't really think you guys are giving scarf lando its due against rain and obviously mega sceptile is a big threat to rain outside of Kingdra as well. Outspeeding these things may not seem very necessary, but it does help the team significantly. I see the point about luring in checks to Kingdra, but I just don't see this niche as quite B+ worthy when there are better straight wall breakers for rain.

Edit: Modest omastar also gets outsped by jolly 220 mega beedrill, jolly 180 mega aero, +1 unmega-ed sharpedo, scarf kyube, scarf chomp, and some niche scarfers. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-speed-tiers.3527024/

 

[Numera]

If you need to beat Chansey and Ferrothorn, isn't Keldeo the better straight wallbreaker as it is still fantastic outside of rain as well? Outspeeding scarf lando may seem arbitrary, but it is a surprisingly potent check to a lot of common rain Pokemon.

252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 284-336 (94.6 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 246-290 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 316-372 (105.6 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Most grounded electrics are OHKOed by EQ etc.

Obviously Omastar is great in rain and I didn't mean to say that it didn't have a great niche, but I don't really think you guys are giving scarf lando its due against rain and obviously mega sceptile is a big threat to rain outside of Kingdra as well. Outspeeding these things may not seem very necessary, but it does help the team significantly. I see the point about luring in checks to Kingdra, but I just don't see this niche as quite B+ worthy when there are better straight wall breakers for rain.

Edit: Modest omastar also gets outsped by jolly 220 mega beedrill, jolly 180 mega aero, +1 unmega-ed sharpedo, scarf kyube, scarf chomp, and some niche scarfers. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-speed-tiers.3527024/

My problem with Keldeo is it's inability to just smash the Hydro Pump button and immediately make switching in safely a massive task like Omastar can. Omastar still stops these 2 Pokemon (given enough prior damage and past switchins, even to a potential Knock Off, meaning this is something that Kingdra can't do) and has far more wallbreaking potential due to how much it can break with minimum risk, therefore making it superior. Outspeeding Scarf Lando-T would be very important if the Pokemon you listed really were common rain Pokemon. Honestly, the most common thing on rain there is Torn-T and even that's not as seen as some other Pokemon on the team.

Okay for one, it doesn't help the team "significantly" because Lando-T is no where near as threatening to rain as you like to make out it is and Mega Sceptile is a rarity for itself. Two, you seem to be forgetting your ability to run both Kingdra and Omastar together, for checking scarfers and superior wallbreaking potential on your rain team.

"Better wallbreakers for rain" like what? I'm going to be honest and say that I think Omastar is the best SS wallbreaker because of how easy it is to pressure an opponent with it's nigh impossible to switch in on safely Hydro Pump. Kingdra outspeeds the odd scarfer sure, but has a few more notable switchins (which are very threatening to the archetype of rain) and therefore fails to pressure the opponent as well as Omastar does once it gets in for free/comes in on something. Not to mention Omastar being resistant to Brave Bird. Regardless, you could easily get away with using both, but I genuinely believe Omastar to be the superior SS wallbreaker in this metagame.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

If you need to beat Chansey and Ferrothorn, isn't Keldeo the better straight wallbreaker as it is still fantastic outside of rain as well? Outspeeding scarf lando may seem arbitrary, but it is a surprisingly potent check to a lot of common rain Pokemon.

252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 284-336 (94.6 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 246-290 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 316-372 (105.6 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Most grounded electrics are OHKOed by EQ etc.

Obviously Omastar is great in rain and I didn't mean to say that it didn't have a great niche, but I don't really think you guys are giving scarf lando its due against rain and obviously mega sceptile is a big threat to rain outside of Kingdra as well. Outspeeding these things may not seem very necessary, but it does help the team significantly. I see the point about luring in checks to Kingdra, but I just don't see this niche as quite B+ worthy when there are better straight wall breakers for rain.

Scarf Lando-T is only good against Rain insomuch that it can... outspeed and OHKO a handful of pokemon. Which it, and really any scarfer, can do to any team. Obviously, Lando-T isn't taking any Rain-boosted STAB Water attacks which is the entire point of a Rain team, and a lot of Rain teams run a bulky grass which can check Lando-T. Yeah it can RK Omastar, but it can't switch in; something has to be sacced. Lando-T is also helpless against Kingdra, which is usually going to be Rain's win condition. IDGAF what health Lando-T is at so long as I can eliminate/weaken Water resists and special walls.

As for Keldeo vs. Omastar, for one thing Keldeo is at A+ anyway, and Omastar's speed is very important. 418 speed is quite high, not high enough for scarfers but high enough for pretty much all unboosted pokemon besides a couple relatively uncommon megas. Omastar can RK Mega Metagross, Keldeo can't. Keldeo is checked by Latios; Latios takes tons of damage if it switches in to Specs Hydro in Rain but it's still faster than Keldeo. And you don't really need Fighting coverage when you hit so freaking hard with your primary STAB. Ferrothorn can't recover quickly enough and easily gets damaged to the point where it can no longer check Kingdra (and Omastar 2HKOs it anyway with about 15% prior damage,) and Chansey is crippled if it switches in to Knock Off (without Eviolite, Omastar and Kingdra can both 2HKO it with no prior damage.) Keldeo's only real positive is that it functions outside of Rain, but a well-used Rain team is going to have more than enough turns of Rain, in which Omastar is simply more effective.

 

[TURBODERP]

Regarding Altaria going/not going up to S rank, it's not like A+ is a bad rank or anything. The line between A+ and S can be blurry, especially regarding the Pokemon in the bottom of S and the top of A+, and there's no "shame" in Mega Altaria being only A+.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Scarf Lando-T is only good against Rain insomuch that it can... outspeed and OHKO a handful of pokemon. Which it, and really any scarfer, can do to any team. Obviously, Lando-T isn't taking any Rain-boosted STAB Water attacks which is the entire point of a Rain team, and a lot of Rain teams run a bulky grass which can check Lando-T. Yeah it can RK Omastar, but it can't switch in; something has to be sacced. Lando-T is also helpless against Kingdra, which is usually going to be Rain's win condition. IDGAF what health Lando-T is at so long as I can eliminate/weaken Water resists and special walls.

As for Keldeo vs. Omastar, for one thing Keldeo is at A+ anyway, and Omastar's speed is very important. 418 speed is quite high, not high enough for scarfers but high enough for pretty much all unboosted pokemon besides a couple relatively uncommon megas. Omastar can RK Mega Metagross, Keldeo can't. Keldeo is checked by Latios; Latios takes tons of damage if it switches in to Specs Hydro in Rain but it's still faster than Keldeo. And you don't really need Fighting coverage when you hit so freaking hard with your primary STAB. Ferrothorn can't recover quickly enough and easily gets damaged to the point where it can no longer check Kingdra (and Omastar 2HKOs it anyway with about 15% prior damage,) and Chansey is crippled if it switches in to Knock Off (without Eviolite, Omastar and Kingdra can both 2HKO it with no prior damage.) Keldeo's only real positive is that it functions outside of Rain, but a well-used Rain team is going to have more than enough turns of Rain, in which Omastar is simply more effective.

My problem with Keldeo is it's inability to just smash the Hydro Pump button and immediately make switching in safely a massive task like Omastar can. Omastar still stops these 2 Pokemon (given enough prior damage and past switchins, even to a potential Knock Off, meaning this is something that Kingdra can't do) and has far more wallbreaking potential due to how much it can break with minimum risk, therefore making it superior. Outspeeding Scarf Lando-T would be very important if the Pokemon you listed really were common rain Pokemon. Honestly, the most common thing on rain there is Torn-T and even that's not as seen as some other Pokemon on the team.

Okay for one, it doesn't help the team "significantly" because Lando-T is no where near as threatening to rain as you like to make out it is and Mega Sceptile is a rarity for itself. Two, you seem to be forgetting your ability to run both Kingdra and Omastar together, for checking scarfers and superior wallbreaking potential on your rain team.

"Better wallbreakers for rain" like what? I'm going to be honest and say that I think Omastar is the best SS wallbreaker because of how easy it is to pressure an opponent with it's nigh impossible to switch in on safely Hydro Pump. Kingdra outspeeds the odd scarfer sure, but has a few more notable switchins (which are very threatening to the archetype of rain) and therefore fails to pressure the opponent as well as Omastar does once it gets in for free/comes in on something. Not to mention Omastar being resistant to Brave Bird. Regardless, you could easily get away with using both, but I genuinely believe Omastar to be the superior SS wallbreaker in this metagame.

I'm not saying that Omastar isn't great. I understand its power trust me, but if I know that my win condition is saving ferrothorn and I have options for dealing with Omastar that aren't ferrothorn that I couldn't use on Kabutops, then that's a disadvantage. Believe it or not, outside of the theoretical situations we talk about here, situations aren't always cut and dry. Yes, for most rain teams the end game is kingdra, however, there will be situations when this is simply not going to be the case. For these instances, it may be worthwhile to have a secondary check to Lando on your rain team...however I digress. This is not the major point of my argument.

The point I'm trying to make is that lacks the ability to sweep as well as Kabutops, however, since this is not the point of omastar as pointed out by everyone, I suppose I could see it moving up to B+

 

[Kurona]

Shuckle for C-
I've got one reason for this and one reason only.
Mega Sableye.
With the new face and definition of stall around, Shuckle's job at setting up hazards got so much harder, especially when it has no way to beat Sableye in the slightest. The best case scenario for it is that it gets up one of it's entry hazards as a non-mega Sableye switches in and Megas on the next turn, meaning Shuckle's niche of setting up two hazards is made redundant.

 

[Rich Homie Supreme]

Have you guys ever considering splitting the S rank into S+, S, and S-? This may have been discussed before, but Mega Altaria would make for a great S- candidate.

S rank shouldn't really be split up. A Pokemon is either S ranked or not tbh.

 

[Teeny Victory]

Shuckle for C-
I've got one reason for this and one reason only.
Mega Sableye.
With the new face and definition of stall around, Shuckle's job at setting up hazards got so much harder, especially when it has no way to beat Sableye in the slightest. The best case scenario for it is that it gets up one of it's entry hazards as a non-mega Sableye switches in and Megas on the next turn, meaning Shuckle's niche of setting up two hazards is made redundant.

While I do agree that sticky web is kinda bad Rn I don't think mega sableye really effected sticky web offence as shuckle really has no reason to be setting sticky web against stall, as all the best sticky web Mons are in the 70-100 speed tier, which is basically out speeding every common stall Mon, so if (as you said) the best case scenario of shackle getting a free switch with sableye unmegad on the other team, you can just set rocks and call it a day, leaving shuckle to sack later. There also the fact that, even though shuckle does lead you 5-6 down against stall, most common sticky web Mons (see: M-Garde, M-Hera etc) all love facing stall teams as they absolutely wreck house, and only really need 1 hazard up against stall anyway, as sticky web is not required. Now the thing I think DOES make sticky web (and shuckle through this) bad is the sheer popularity of the lati twins ever since the M-Mawhile ban, which are Completely unaffected by sticky web and Defog it away without a care in the world, and shuckle is very hard pressed to find multiple opportunities to set hazards with its terrible typing, lack of resistances and extremely low speed. However the fact that there really is no shuckle replacement for sticky web teams (smearing and galvantula are bad frens), gives it enough of a niche to justify it's current ranking.
So TL;DR shuckle(and sticky web) is bad, but it doesn't deserve to move down as no new oras meta changes have affected it and it has its own, clearly defined, niche. So keep it in C rank IMO

 

[Swagodile]

The point of S-Rank is that those Pokemon are the best of the best. Diving it would ruin that.

Look at the Pokemon in it. Lando is a glue that can fit onto almost any team, and the other three are Megas that define the three basic playstyles.

Mega Lopunny is the face of Hyper Offense.
Mega Metagross is the face of Balance.
Mega Sableye is the face of Stall.