Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[trc]

Hey guys, I planned to update this after I got back from a holiday over the weekend but I ended up being away longer so sorry if it's a little bit late. Thanks a lot to AM for keeping the thread well-moderated in that time. Anyway, time for an update!

Clefable: remains in A+
Mega Altaria: remains in A+
Mega Gardevoir: A+ ---> A
Mega Latias: A ---> B+
Mega Manectric: remains in A
Mega Sceptile: A- ---> B+
Mega Slowbro: A ---> A+
Keldeo: remains in A+
Latias: A+ ---> A
Gliscor: B+ ---> A
Starmie: B+ ---> A-
Tornadus-T: B ---> A-
Tyranitar: A- ---> A
Rhyperior: B ---> B-
Tentacruel: remains in B
Raikou: remains in B+
Scizor: remains in B
Serperior: C+ ---> B-
Reuniclus: D ---> C
Arcanine: added to D
Emboar: stays unranked
Milotic: stays unranked

Clefable: The entire ranking team believed Clefable to A+, and to be honest I definitely feel like a lot of the posts in this thread supporting its rise were quite exaggerated. Clefable is definitely a great Pokemon, very common on balance teams, and can do a whole lot of things. CM + Magic Guard + Flamethrower/Thunder Wave/Focus Blast/Life Orb/Stored Power, Stealth Rock + Thunder Wave, CM + Unaware to beat Mega Slowbro/Sableye, defensive sets with Wish, and a wealth of other lures/coverage moves for specific situations. It's definitely one of the most versatile Pokemon in the tier. While it can't do everything at once, it definitely has two moveslots that you can't expect, or one if it's revealed Calm Mind, though usually it's the coverage on the CM set that catches most people it. For now, lets just compare Clefable to the other S ranks. Mega Sableye is the closest - it's often a Calm Mind sweeper, though occasionally a utility tank, while Clefable is often a Calm Mind sweeper, though occasionally a SR setter or a wall. Clefable has an unpredictable moveslot, and Magic Guard, while Mega Sableye has Will-O-Wisp and Magic Bounce, They both have great typings for their jobs. Mega Sableye also checks and sets up on far more Pokemon, controls the hazard game, has fewer and more specialised counters, and is regarded as the face of stall. Mega Metagross is one of the most dangerous offensive Pokemon in the tier - it's bulky, incredibly strong, has moveslot unpredictability and very few switch-ins in the whole tier. Landorus-T is an incredibly splashable Pokemon (a similar quality) but is different and that it checks a huge amount of the tier while simultaneously being a revenge killer,while having plenty of set versatility as well. Mega Lopunny is incredibly anti-offense, has unresisted STAB and two free moveslots to improve the offense or the stall matchup (ie: Fake Out/Ice Punch or Sub/PuP or Sub/Encore etc). The only Pokemon here that Clefable comes close to in terms of usefulness is Landorus-T, mainly due to that "splashability" factor, and a similar unpredictability, but they have different roles. Now lets look at Clefable's matchup against most playstyles. Most offensive teams should be able to muscle through it without too much difficulty, and its checks are quite common on these sorts of teams as well, so that matchup, while still ok for Clefable, isn't its best. Stall teams always pack dedicated counters, such as Acid Spray / Haze Tentacruel, Taunt Heatran, or Jirachi. Its best matchup is against balanced teams but even they have plenty of answers to Clefable: Taunt Heatran, Jirachi, Talonflame, TG RD Manaphy, Psyshock CM Mega Slowbro, SubCM Keldeo which is everywhere, all common trends lately which make give Clefable a hard time. While you can say that some of these lose to Unaware CM the most popular set is clearly MG CM and Unaware CM faces a whole wealth of problems like the popularity of sand again which means Moonlight worsened + Excadrill more common, as well as a susceptibility to Toxic, obviously. It also can only use Moonblast meaning things like Mega Metagross, Excadrill, Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn don't even have to fear a Fire move. Clefable is a great Pokemon, but it isn't S rank in the metagame we're in.

Mega Altaria: The other S rank nominee. I'll try to make this paragraph not as long this time. First of all, I don't know why people hype DDD all the time; it's actually not a good set, and you'll be hard pressed to find a team that doesn't have a counter: Heatran, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Mega Venusaur, Jirachi, Talonflame, Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross, plenty of Pokemon that just stop it cold, and aren't always even easy to wear down enough, which is what you need, it doesn't have the ability to bypass any counters. The Hyper Voice / Fire Blast / Earthquake set is the best IMO, with 2 attacks DD being great as well, but they each face individual problems, the former with Talonflame, Mega Venusaur, and just falling short of being able to KO the Pokemon it would like to, and the latter set having plenty of checks depending on coverage move; you will never not be walled by either Heatran or Ferrothorn unless you choose to not run Roost at which point you get worn down overtime trying to setup and lack the ability to check Pokemon like the Zards / Keldeo / Latis etc. A very high A+ rank Pokemon, remember, since it gets plenty of free turns and chances to do work, but not an S rank Pokemon.

Even though most of the reasoning for these Pokemon's moving has been detailed throughout the thread by various contributors, I felt like recapping some of the most important points as well as points brought up by the ranking team internally for decisions possibly considered controversial, or decisions that just needed a bit of explanation. I haven't updated the thread as of this post; I'll do it directly after. Now, as always, you may talk about whatever you want, but I'll give a few topics brought up to focus discussion. Also, don't feel like your nomination was ignored - it wasn't! The slate creation and update post aren't at the same time; there will be a gap for new nominations being brought up. They will be on the next slate. Speaking of which, here are some of the Pokemon to focus on discussion for before the next update:

Keldeo ---> S: McMeghan brought this up internally. The very popular as of late SubCM is fantastic against most balanced teams once the Lati has been trapped by ScarfTar, or another Pursuiter, or even once it gets burned, as SubCM Keldeo can simply burn most of its checks/counters early-game (barring Celebi/Starmie).
Mega Lopunny ---> A+.
Excadrill ---> A+
Gliscor ---> A+: Another McM suggestion.
Kyurem-B ---> A-
The things discussed throughout the thread regarding to the B - C ranks, like Omastar, Kabutops, Hawlucha, and Mega Latios, for example.
Emboar ---> C-: To quote alexwolf:

CB Reckless Emboar 2HKOes 95% of the tier with Flare Blitz, and the other 4% with Superpower, with only Slowbro of the top of my head not 2HKOed by Emboar's STABs, which is 2HKOed by Wild Charge, even max HP / max Def+ Mega Slowbro after SR. With max Speed it can outspeed most defensive Pokemon and it has ok bulk and is able to come in on Pokemon such as Mega Sableye, Ferrothorn, non-max Speed Mega Scizor, Heatran, Clefable, and even Bisharp if you don't mind losing your item, as well as all the slower stuff he can OHKO and thus force out, so he has quite a decent amount of switch-ins.

Bear in mind that this doesn't necessarily mean I agree with these, so it's best to see good arguments, not bandwagoning ones.

 

[Karxrida]

No Gardevoir for D? ;-;

 

[trc]

No.

Also two more things:

1) No more "Other things I agree with" because I'm seeing them in every post and it's starting to become an excuse for some of you to not justify anything.
2) No more asking for things to get blacklisted.

 

[AM]

Ok I'm gonna elaborate some of the topics of discussion in case some are confused by why certain things are being suggested to move up or down. Note that these are based on my perceptions of what I feel with some context clues I was able to assume from the ranking teams suggestions, games I've played and seen, and various individuals I've discussed this with.

Keldeo to S: This was suggested by McMeghan and if anyone has been keeping an eye on SPL or just any decent ladder game you'd know that SubCM Keldeo is an extremely powerful set along with the fact that Keldeo's usage of Scald with that inevitable burn rate on top of this set has been the bane of so many teams. Pretty much it's sort of gone back to its old roots of just being annoying as hell for just about every archetype more or less, even more so now with its SubCM set being the go to set. Keldeo's SPL and tour performance is where this nomination is coming from primarily so some thoughts on this would be nice.

M-Lopunny to A+: Same thing, SPL and high ladder games, except this one is coming back to haunt it in the fact teams are bulkier and are able to not only stomach a hit from M-Lopunny but are able to threaten it either through an immediate threat such as Scarf Lando-T or in the long run such as Clefable and Hippowdon. It was promoted to S during a time where Greninja dominated and as such these Balanced cores that handle M-Lopunny a bit easily weren't able to shine. Now that's not the case and as such what we've seen from M-Lopunny isn't exactly the top tier threat we would consider in comparison to M-Gross and M-Sableye. It does have plenty of versatility going for it but do all these optional traits make up for it?

Excadrill's placement: Henry and I talked shortly on this but this has to do with two things although sort of common with each other, Swords Dance sets. SD + Sand Rush + Life Orb is a game-breaking cleaner that can turn your conventional checks such as Gliscor into potential liabilities late-game. This was what Henry brought up primarily however defensive builds also overlook a very potent set in SD + Mold Breaker + Lum Berry / Life Orb which dedicates its role to one of a wall-breaker when this set is applied. More or less this nomination has to do with consideration from a threat level stand-point in regards to team-building. I don't know if it should be A+ tbh but I know I caught some people around the threads believing to themselves that it has become less effective in the meta, which I believe is definitely not the case, however I'm open to hear a case on its placement.

Gliscor to A+: Gliscors just really effective in the meta-game with different variables to cater to ones needs while checking and handling dangerous threats in the meta. That's all I could really gather from a theorymon stand point cause Gliscor was very effective and very noticeable in the tour games and high ladder ones that many of were able to watch these past weeks. I personally don't believe it's on the level of A+ so to speak but again, some good discussion for this as well.

Kyurem-B to A-: Greninja is gone and it's not so much about the 1v1 scenario more so of the fact that the builds that have fostered are more susceptible to Kyurem-B now. There's not too much I can really elaborate on quite honestly, most of us know what it does effectively so it's more along the lines of raising based on a meta-game trend favorable towards Kyurem-B's performance.

Emboar to C-: No real comment I've heard some things here and there for it in regards to its capabilities that I agree with on top of the fact the Emboar looks more appealing than half the C- list right now lol.

M-Diancie to A+: Just got this from Henry a little while ago so passing along the message here. Discussion on this as well because every game I've seen M-Diancie in being utilized well it puts in the amount of work I would expect it to. I mentioned the base speed factor of its original form being absolutely garbage for it however lots of people are just opting for Protect in a similar fashion to M-Beedrill and under the right conditions which isn't exactly hard to meet it can sweep in a highly effective manner.

We also noticed a potential for too many A+ mons so before you guys yell at us for this, don't worry we are fully aware. Feel free to productively discuss what ever.

Edit: I know this a lot to take in but while I'm at it I'm going to open the floor for some discussion on Volcarona moving up as well. B- is sort of embarrassing for such an underrated threat that people don't even think about half the time. It needs to be known that it's out there and not at the level of B- which I feel is pretty low. So again feel free to discuss what ever.

 

[Salemance]

Hey trc, i might have missed the post but hat was Arc's reasoning for re-ranking? I don't mind it regaining a spot in viability but am just curious.

Gliscor moving up to A+ makes some sense as its become one of the better answers outside of flash fire users to Stall's new face, Mega Sable. The Sp Def set working as a sword dance user never ceases to amaze me in how it works with it in tandem with its ability Poison Heal. I think that by itself could be one of the easiest reasons to use it as any way to abuse Sable is appreciated now a days, and it doesnt hurt it can fire off boosted EQs. I still dont think its nearly on the level of stuff like Mega Dos and Gengar though as its new ranking of A seems more than enough for now. Its a great mon that is learning to excell in the current meta but is it really on A+ with said mons?

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Hey trc, i might have missed the post but hat was Arc's reasoning for re-ranking? I don't mind it regaining a spot in viability but am just curious.

It counters Mega Mawile Mega Metagross. Beyond that it's really bulky, spreads burns and uhh other stuff

So I still havent seen a good argument to keep clefable out of S rank, I am assuming it will be rising in the next update.

On another note, if you know me at all Arcanine is my favorite pokemon. So when he had his niche in OU as one of the only reliable mega mawile counters I was over the moon because I could use him without getting too much shit. And now his time has come again, there are 2 notable new threats close to the same level of threat as mega mawile; mega lopunny and mega metagross, balance teams are scrambling trying to find a reliable way to handle these threats and there appear to be no reliable ways to deal with these mons due to their variety of sets. But luckily there is one pokemon to rise up and put them back in their place:

Arcanine for D rank! Metagross and lopunny are very common and difficult to deal with pokemon, and this is a nice full counter to every set of both mons not to mention being a reliable check to damn near every physical attacker in the tier, I would include a list but the list is too long it can serve as a check to mega gyarados for christs sake, here are some calcs:

Hide

-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 182-216 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 105-124 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- 68.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 132-156 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- 52.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 121-144 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 96-114 (25 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 211-249 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 135-160 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- 87.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 129-153 (33.6 - 39.9%) -- 26% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 176-210 (45.9 - 54.8%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 186-222 (48.5 - 57.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 265-315 (69.1 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 79-94 (20.6 - 24.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 210-250 (54.8 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So basically I couldnt find a physical attacker in the tier that arcanine didnt CHECK(charizard x is the only acception), and he is also a full counter to a good bit of them as well, including metagross, lopunny, and gallade. I mean this thing can check adamant life orb excadrill in sand! That should be enough of an example to demonstrate the prowess arcanine has at checking physical attackers. So Ill move on from that aspect of him.

Now basically the only viable set in OU is max def(I use rocky helm to better punish things) and then willowisp/morning sun/fire move/espeed, extremespeed is also a nice move to have because you never know if you miss a roll or something on a runaway sweeper, I mean just having a +2 priority move is helpful to have. So he is not just a wall that sits there and does nothing he can get reliable chip damage through willowisp and rocky helm, has very good priority to finish off weakened foes, and has a respectable attack stat and a 120 bp stab move that can help get damage on key things. Spreading around burns is always a good thing and is definitely just another bonus to using this mon.

Now onto the negative aspect of arcanine(and his only viable set), it gets walled by fire types(close combat is also an option>flare blitz to better hit heatran and charx) and is setup bait for charizardx which is indeed a serious flaw but not one that cant be overcome with the right team support, I mean mega sableye is setup bait for charx and that thing is S rank. The other issue is the stealth rock weakness, but even if rocks are up it is still able to handle most of the aforementioned pokemon. Perhaps the biggest negative to this guy is something Ill call the "meh factor" it doesnt quite seem to have the stats of an OU pokemon and it doesnt have the best support movepool, it is because of this that against certain teams it can be considered deadweight or something that loses momentum. But the bottom line is OU has 3 fire types one of which is mega(char), one of which provides damn near no defensive synergy due to an immense rock weakness and fraility(tflame), and the other is on every team and is prepared for heavily(heatran), and arcanine is a pure fire type with very good bulk, and can compliment a fire-water-grass core very nicely with smart building and team support. He has his flaws and can seem generally underwhelming in some games, but he also has a notable niche in OU and can greatly benefit a team. Honestly even if the only thing this guy did was counter mega metagross I would still say put him in D rank because OU has basicaly 0 counters that are reliable as arcanine, add in all the other things he counters/checks, the ability to spread burns around, and helpful priority, I think D rank is the least we could do.

 

[Salemance]

It counters Mega Mawile Mega Metagross. Beyond that it's really bulky, spreads burns and uhh other stuff

Ah so same role it was last time but for MegaGross in xchange for Wile. Thanks Spooky

 

[November Blue]

I kinda knew that Altaria wasn't going to rise (wishful thinking, I guess), but Clefable surprised me. The S rank requirements are much stricter than I thought, and I guess I have a different notion of what S rank is (as do some other users in this thread). Maybe the official 'definition' of S rank (in relation to other ranks) should be put in the OP, for clarity's sake?

Reason being, people are making nominations like I did that just turn out to be incorrect, to put it bluntly. I think it'd help everyone if we were all on the same page.

That being said, I can respect the council's decisions. I just wish they'd take a more active role in the thread.

 

[Flamer]

I just wanna make a quick post about something I feel is seriously wrong on this list, this is the placement of Shapedo-M. When I started playing oras, sharp wasnt a mon i thought would be great, it looked pretty ok on paper but I thought there would be lots of practical issues like a lack of power and inability to break stall. Boy was I wrong. After testing pretty extensively with various teams that included M-Sharp, I can pretty confidently say it does well against all team archetypes, having some trouble against balance. Speed boost allows it to sweep through weakened offensive teams (although weakened is somewhat of an exaggeration, most mons are preferred to be at around 60-70% before starting, which is pretty easy to do) but only gets one chance to do so, which is what most people seem to have an issue with. But isnt that the same case as almost every other sweeper? Very few have the luxury of setting up twice, especially in such an offensive metagame.

Against Stall, however, is where Sharpedo truly surprised me, and even moreso probably my opponents. Most people believe you have to let sharpedo get a speed boost to do work, but against defensive teams and even some offensive teams, Sharpedo outspeeds everything anyway and has very few safe switches thanks to its boosted Crunch. Sharpedo in fact has two ways to be played, as a holepuncher, or as a late game sweeper, though it cannot be both in the same game. That boosted Crunch against stall is absoloutely deadly, 2HKOing the likes of Rotom-W, Amoongus, M-Sableye and nearly Ferrothorn (its a roll against stardard Ferro).

Sharpedo has it's fair share of problems, powerful priority attacks prevent it from sweeping and anything it cannot OHKO or 2hko on the switch will likely force it out, however, the benefits of using Sharpedo outweigh these flaws somewhat and I see Sharpedo as better than it's current rank. Thus I am nominating Mega Sharpedo for B+. Also I am summoning MegaScizor because I seem to remember him being adamant about promoting it a while back.

 

[Fourth Inversion]

I just wanna make a quick post about something I feel is seriously wrong on this list, this is the placement of Shapedo-M. When I started playing oras, sharp wasnt a mon i thought would be great, it looked pretty ok on paper but I thought there would be lots of practical issues like a lack of power and inability to break stall. Boy was I wrong. After testing pretty extensively with various teams that included M-Sharp, I can pretty confidently say it does well against all team archetypes, having some trouble against balance. Speed boost allows it to sweep through weakened offensive teams (although weakened is somewhat of an exaggeration, most mons are preferred to be at around 60-70% before starting, which is pretty easy to do) but only gets one chance to do so, which is what most people seem to have an issue with. But isnt that the same case as almost every other sweeper? Very few have the luxury of setting up twice, especially in such an offensive metagame.

Against Stall, however, is where Sharpedo truly surprised me, and even moreso probably my opponents. Most people believe you have to let sharpedo get a speed boost to do work, but against defensive teams and even some offensive teams, Sharpedo outspeeds everything anyway and has very few safe switches thanks to its boosted Crunch. Sharpedo in fact has two ways to be played, as a holepuncher, or as a late game sweeper, though it cannot be both in the same game. That boosted Crunch against stall is absoloutely deadly, 2HKOing the likes of Rotom-W, Amoongus, M-Sableye and nearly Ferrothorn (its a roll against stardard Ferro).

Sharpedo has it's fair share of problems, powerful priority attacks prevent it from sweeping and anything it cannot OHKO or 2hko on the switch will likely force it out, however, the benefits of using Sharpedo outweigh these flaws somewhat and I see Sharpedo as better than it's current rank. Thus I am nominating Mega Sharpedo for B+. Also I am summoning MegaScizor because I seem to remember him being adamant about promoting it a while back.

In addition to the points mentioned by Flamer, Mega Sharpedo is also a really good receiver of a Swords Dance via Baton Pass, as pokemon that pass both speed and attack, such as SmashPass users or SD Scolipede can have difficulties setting up and passing safely because of their frailty. As Sharpedo with Protect already gives you a +1 speed boost, bulkier pokemon that learn SD and BP, such as Gliscor, Celebi and Scizor, have a much higher chance of passing the boost safely, and the +2 attack boost turns those aforementioned Crunch 2HKOes into 1HKOes. Mega Sharpedo can also run Poison Fang over Ice Fang to take on Azumarill (although Unaware Clefable still kind of walls it), and the Mega form's additional bulk means that at full health, it's only OHKOed by priority from Breloom and Talonflame. I second the nomination of Mega Sharpedo for B+.

 

[QueenOfHax]

I support Kyurem-B for A- because the recent metagame shift gives it many common targets to revenge kill with its Scarf set, or outright wall and set up on with its Substitute one.
Such targets include Starmie, Celebi, Landorus-T, Gliscor and Serperior. And of course old targets like Rotom-W and Mega Venusaur and Heatran are still around and Kyu-B wrecks them just as easily.
Other than that very little has changed for Kyu-B: it's still one of the best all-purpose wallbreakers in the tier, a total nightmare for stall and still dangerous for balance and even HO (though it does require a bit of support for the latter, preferably in the form of a slow U-Turn/Volt Switch or speed control).
To give you an idea of how good its coverage is, there are 19 mons under S and A+ ranks combined, and 15 of them are hit for SE by its BoltBeam+Earth Power combo, and only 2 (Clefable and M-Scizor) have any realistic chance to wall it.

 

[Isa Simple]

Tbh, I can see Emboar sitting pretty in C+ for now with a lot of similar pokemon and wall breakers.
Here are some calcs to show Emboar's wall breaking potential in comparison to the other wall breakers of C+

252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 373-439 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
vs
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 364-430 (90 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 388-457 (96 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (changed mew's type to fighting neutral)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 382-450 (94.5 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 279-328 (69 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Baring in mind that Staraptor and Mega Medicham usually run Jolly > Adamant hence Emboar out damages them.
After running these calcs I've also noticed Mega Camerupt could potentially drop as it doesn't stand that tall next to the other C+ wall breakers.

This also puts it just above infernape which I think is fair as although it can't run the fancy anti lead set, it is a far more power mixed wall breaker than mixape and just in general more powerful. Obviously Infernape has other things over Emboar like speed, recovery and better boosting moves, but Emboar's sheer power I think is enough to make it the superior Fire/Fighting.

Here are some calcs of standard RU Mixed Emboar but with Reckless > Blaze and Flare Blitz > Fire Blast vs Standard OU mixape.

72 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 255-302 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
212 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Emboar Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 406-478 (96.6 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
44 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 317-374 (75.4 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Emboar also has lots of versatility item wise between CB, CS, LO and Leftovers or AV (slightly better special bulk than AV conk). And has acces to strong coverage and Sucker Punch.
So to put it in bold I think it is fair to nominate Emboar for C+ atm.
That said I do think it is possible for Emboar to move up in the future closer to its counterpart Victini in B. Both have their advantages over one another and I would like to here some discussion on whether it is possible for Emboar to makes it into the Bs alongside Victini as both have their merits.
Here are a few advantages Emboar has over Victini:

- Victini is one of the easiest pokemon to pursuit trap in the game, where as Emboar laughs at bisharp and can also take out Tyranitar with a scarf set assuming Tyranitar isn't scarfed itself.
- Emboar can take out Heatran, Mega Zard X and many other threats that Victini can't thanks to its strong Fighting and Rock moves.
- After 1 V-create, Emboar becomes faster and bulkier than Victini.
- Emboar isn't weak to SR and resists Koff.
- Emboar has Sucker Punch for priority.
- Emboar has the option to boost with Bulk Up.
- Emboar can OHKO many strong pokemon on the switch in that Victini can't via Head Smash. e.g. Lati@s.
- Emboar has a cooler shiny. (very relevant).

Also, believe it or not Adamant Emboar out damages Jolly Victini (by only a couple % admittedly), and is only just out damaged by Adamant Victini. With V-create doing roughly 10% more than Flare Blitz on average and Bolt Strike roughly 2% more than Wild Charge.

Victini's best advantages over Emboar are its lack of recoil and its Special set as Emboar's special move pool doesn't support the same power and coverage. The next best thing Victini has is its speed which it murders using V-create. Victini's typing has its merits, but so does Emboar's, making Emboar a far better partner to mons such as Celebi.

Basically at the end of the day, I think Emboar deserves at least C+ for now but I am interested to see if it has enough merits over Victini to warrant a place along side it and Crawdaunt in B.

P.S I know for some of you this sort of post is child's play, but I posted for the 1st time on this thread in order to shine some light on my favorite gen 5 starter and I am proud of this rant. (also I don't really know why I use mew for almost all my calcs, 100/100/100 is just such nice defensive stats for comparison of power).

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Emboar also has lots of versatility item wise between CB, CS, LO and Leftovers or AV (slightly better special bulk than AV conk).

CB is already kind of a stretch due to it's poor speed, I suppose it'd do ok vs stall but that's it, CS is imo it's only viable set in OU, LO has the same problem as CB with added recoil, but the option to run Sucker Punch so maybe that'd work too, Leftovers and AV are just terrible options, Emboar doesn't get to attack many times during a match so when it does hit it wants to hit hard, lefties is unlikely to make it hit more often as it's bulk aside from a good health stat is rather mediocre.

Bulk on an AV set doesnt matter at all as it lacks the thing that makes AV conk viable, namely recovery, when do people learn that you can't just slap AV on everything and have it work out?

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Alright. . .
I've been quite quiet for a while, but it's about time I say what inevitably needs to be said. A lot of people are overselling Pokemon, by a large, LARGE amount.

Emboar was sort of the end of the line for me. . .

Hide

252+ Atk Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 1404-1656 (434.6 - 512.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 1524-1792 (471.8 - 554.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 1384-1632 (428.4 - 505.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If I want a hard hitting Fire type I'll use Darm or Victini. Emboar has nothing going for it in OU that isn't done by something better. Choice band is subpar at best and scarf is right there with it. C+ is WAY too high for it

Serperior gained a very nice asset in Contrary, but even then it's not the greatest, and isn't anymore than B- (I think even that is pushing it). As far as their HAs that's the only relevant one, and the only one that should be above C even if we're being generous.

 

[Froggyboy]

Alright. . .
I've been quite quiet for a while, but it's about time I say what inevitably needs to be said. A lot of people are overselling Pokemon, by a large, LARGE amount.

Emboar was sort of the end of the line for me. . .

Hide

252+ Atk Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 1404-1656 (434.6 - 512.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 1524-1792 (471.8 - 554.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 1384-1632 (428.4 - 505.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If I want a hard hitting Fire type I'll use Darm or Victini. Emboar has nothing going for it in OU that isn't done by something better. Choice band is subpar at best and scarf is right there with it. C+ is WAY too high for it

Serperior gained a very nice asset in Contrary, but even then it's not the greatest, and isn't anymore than B- (I think even that is pushing it). As far as their HAs that's the only relevant one, and the only one that should be above C even if we're being generous.

I feel your argument became invalid when you said you would rather use Darmanitan over Emboar, but to avoid a one liner..
Emboar has niches in Reckless that boosts its other coverage moves, a typing making it a great Bisharp check, isn't SR weak, and has priority in Sucker Punch, unlike Victini. Victini is Bisharp bait after a V-Create, it can't even check Bisharp reliably as it dies to any combination of moves, and Stealth Rock wittles down Victini just as much as recoil from Flare Blitz on Emboar. It can be revenged easily thanks to the defense drop from V-Create combined with 100 speed which is much worse now thanks to M-Lopunny, M-Sceptile, and M-Beedrill. But Victini can go mixed or pure special much more easier, it can afford to run a banded set, has much better bulk and speed, and its fucking adorable. That being said, I feel Emboar fits in C or C+ Rank, fitting the description perfectly.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

 

[AM]

I kinda knew that Altaria wasn't going to rise (wishful thinking, I guess), but Clefable surprised me. The S rank requirements are much stricter than I thought, and I guess I have a different notion of what S rank is (as do some other users in this thread). Maybe the official 'definition' of S rank (in relation to other ranks) should be put in the OP, for clarity's sake?

Reason being, people are making nominations like I did that just turn out to be incorrect, to put it bluntly. I think it'd help everyone if we were all on the same page.

That being said, I can respect the council's decisions. I just wish they'd take a more active role in the thread.

If you haven't noticed we're putting a very strong, more or less in certain noms obviously, criteria for being an S rank mon. The reason being I referenced some posts back is that the line between A+ and S at times is blurred at times and needs to be established how good the S rank mons have to be when you have a high amount of A+ ranked mons to begin with that on any given day start looking like S based on battle circumstances. Being versatile is a selling point but being actually effective on the level of M-Metagross, M-Sableye, and Lando-T, although this last one is debatable depending on who you ask, as you can tell is what's going to push it to S rank. This is a big factor in why Keldeo is being looked at because it's been seen to not only be so easy to just slap on a team, but it's also extremely effective, isn't even a mega, and already pairs up with some of the best mons in the tier. That's more my opinion on it so take those points with a grain of salt and anyone who has an an argument for it to stay in A+ feel free to use these points as reference.

Which brings me to my next point about the nominations. These nominations people make are welcomed to keep discussion going further as long as it's not mind numbing to read. However people use VERY HIGH exaggerations at times to get the point across when they're simply not true or they're fluffing up everything it does well while ignoring the points of what it doesn't do well. This is what happened with the M-Altaria and M-Gyarados nominations the past pages where people would explain that their power and versatility would be what pushes them to S but failed to address the blatantly obvious blanket checks and meta-game trends that are occurring that would say otherwise. Unfortunately I'd like to think everyone is on the same page but if you've been actively following ranking threads you'll know that this is unrealistic on controversial cases especially those that go higher in higher as you up the ranks. I'm pretty active on this thread as well and part of the ranking team and made a very long post that included why I didn't see M-Altaria as S rank in the first place so granted not every member is going to be actively on the thread posting all the time but we're aware of good arguments going on. Every time I have discussion with people outside of here they have their own preconceived notions of what should be ranked at a certain position so speaking from my perspective of what I'm usually analyzing, I need to sort through and understand the logic and how it applies on a practical level, not only from how it sounds on paper which too many people do at times and use this as the crutch of their arguments, even I'm guilty of this in the past and sometimes now.

These definitions in the OP are just guidelines that are actually standard across rankings of multiple tiers and they should be treated as such without going extremely technical with them. I'm not gonna try and give you a definition of S rank that is going to be subjective to every single person you ask for every different mon that I would ask for. If you go off of what's seen and played in practice on a high enough level of play and you correlate to how this applies to the rankings you'll sort of notice that at this point as previously mentioned we're more than likely going to have a very high standard, as such, for S rank. There are too many effective A ranked mons in the tier to not get the point across that you need to be a pretty cut and dry case for S now, although cut and dry is subjective hence why we're here establishing arguments for whatever case you see fit.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I feel your argument became invalid when you said you would rather use Darmanitan over Emboar, but to avoid a one liner..
Emboar has niches in Reckless that boosts its other coverage moves, a typing making it a great Bisharp check, isn't SR weak, and has priority in Sucker Punch, unlike Victini. Victini is Bisharp bait after a V-Create, it can't even check Bisharp reliably as it dies to any combination of moves, and Stealth Rock wittles down Victini just as much as recoil from Flare Blitz on Emboar. It can be revenged easily thanks to the defense drop from V-Create combined with 100 speed which is much worse now thanks to M-Lopunny, M-Sceptile, and M-Beedrill. But Victini can go mixed or pure special much more easier, it can afford to run a banded set, has much better bulk and speed, and its fucking adorable. That being said, I feel Emboar fits in C or C+ Rank, fitting the description perfectly.

That was a general statement, I wasn't specifically talking about Emboar, that was just the Pokemon to put it over the edge. However, since we're on the subject of such, I'll run with it. Firstly, I was comparing Scarf Fire type hard hitters, so with that. . . What coverage does it boost other than Head smash? I'm legitimately asking because I can't seem to find any other moves in which Reckless will boost a moves damage output. Also, Choice scarf + sucker punch isn't the best combination in my opinion, but I digress. Also, added Recoil thanks to reckless makes Emboar easily revenged as well. All three of those Victini outspeeds and has a move to kill, but I suppose you can pick and choose your arguments if you please. Also, saying the recoil Emboar suffers from is the same as victini's rock switch ins is just out right wrong especially since Reckless adds on to that, but that is besides the point.

I didn't say Emboar doesn't have a niche, I'm saying it has a niche, yet people are over selling it, much like they did with Serperior.

 

[Kurona]

That was a general statement, I wasn't specifically talking about Emboar, that was just the Pokemon to put it over the edge. However, since we're on the subject of such, I'll run with it. Firstly, I was comparing Scarf Fire type hard hitters, so with that. . . What coverage does it boost other than Head smash? I'm legitimately asking because I can't seem to find any other moves in which Reckless will boost a moves damage output. Also, Choice scarf + sucker punch isn't the best combination in my opinion, but I digress. Also, added Recoil thanks to reckless makes Emboar easily revenged as well. All three of those Victini outspeeds and has a move to kill, but I suppose you can pick and choose your arguments if you please. Also, saying the recoil Emboar suffers from is the same as victini's rock switch ins is just out right wrong especially since Reckless adds on to that, but that is besides the point.

I didn't say Emboar doesn't have a niche, I'm saying it has a niche, yet people are over selling it, much like they did with Serperior.

Emboar gets Wild Charge as another coverage boosted by Reckless. Not arguing for or against I'm kinda undecided; just you wanted to know :P

 

[Pooch13]

That was a general statement, I wasn't specifically talking about Emboar, that was just the Pokemon to put it over the edge. However, since we're on the subject of such, I'll run with it. Firstly, I was comparing Scarf Fire type hard hitters, so with that. . . What coverage does it boost other than Head smash? I'm legitimately asking because I can't seem to find any other moves in which Reckless will boost a moves damage output. Also, Choice scarf + sucker punch isn't the best combination in my opinion, but I digress. Also, added Recoil thanks to reckless makes Emboar easily revenged as well. All three of those Victini outspeeds and has a move to kill, but I suppose you can pick and choose your arguments if you please. Also, saying the recoil Emboar suffers from is the same as victini's rock switch ins is just out right wrong especially since Reckless adds on to that, but that is besides the point.

I didn't say Emboar doesn't have a niche, I'm saying it has a niche, yet people are over selling it, much like they did with Serperior.

Also STAB superpower, thunder punch if you dont like WC recoil, sucker punch for priority, EdgeQuake coverage, P jab (no use for it but still coverage), heavy slam/iron head (check for M diancie if holding scarf ), Zen Hbutt.
Only move that victini has that emboar would like is u turn for momentum.

 

[Isa Simple]

That was a general statement, I wasn't specifically talking about Emboar, that was just the Pokemon to put it over the edge. However, since we're on the subject of such, I'll run with it. Firstly, I was comparing Scarf Fire type hard hitters, so with that. . . What coverage does it boost other than Head smash? I'm legitimately asking because I can't seem to find any other moves in which Reckless will boost a moves damage output. Also, Choice scarf + sucker punch isn't the best combination in my opinion, but I digress. Also, added Recoil thanks to reckless makes Emboar easily revenged as well. All three of those Victini outspeeds and has a move to kill, but I suppose you can pick and choose your arguments if you please. Also, saying the recoil Emboar suffers from is the same as victini's rock switch ins is just out right wrong especially since Reckless adds on to that, but that is besides the point.

I didn't say Emboar doesn't have a niche, I'm saying it has a niche, yet people are over selling it, much like they did with Serperior.

Perhaps you misunderstood when I started comparing Emboar to Victini. I was simply bringing up points to start some discussion as to whether anyone has found another niche over Victini that could potentially push Emboar into the Bs. I currently do not believe Emboar is B worthy as I said I think it belongs in C+ for now, but I was starting discussion to see if any better players thought higher of Emboar. And I hardly think C+ is over selling it. I showed calcs comparing it to all the other C+ wall breakers, and Emboar out damages all of them bar Dragalge with their respective most powerful moves. Little did I mention Emboar's coverage moves hit harder than theirs too. I stated why it is arguably better than its Fire/Fighting counterpart Infernape. Then proceeded to point out the advantages it had over Victini, hence proving its viability as isn't outclassed as a physical Fire type wall breaker.
Its not like C+ is that high a rank. If I'm overselling it so much then please explain as to why it doesn't belong next to Mega Camerupt, Dragalge, Staraptor and Mega Medicham.

 

[Pooch13]

Perhaps you misunderstood when I started comparing Emboar to Victini. I was simply bringing up points to start some discussion as to whether anyone has found another niche over Victini that could potentially push Emboar into the Bs. I currently do not believe Emboar is B worthy as I said I think it belongs in C+ for now, but I was starting discussion to see if any better players thought higher of Emboar. And I hardly think C+ is over selling it. I showed calcs comparing it to all the other C+ wall breakers, and Emboar out damages all of them bar Dragalge with their respective most powerful moves. Little did I mention Emboar's coverage moves hit harder than theirs too. I stated why it is arguably better than its Fire/Fighting counterpart Infernape. Then proceeded to point out the advantages it had over Victini, hence proving its viability as isn't outclassed as a physical Fire type wall breaker.
Its not like C+ is that high a rank. If I'm overselling it so much then please explain as to why it doesn't belong next to Mega Camerupt, Dragalge, Staraptor and Mega Medicham.

I dont think you should be comparing emboar to infernape, sure they have the same typing but infernapes grrovy speed tier lets it do different roles than emboar, that+SR+u turn, and the fact that mixed ape is solid puts them in different categories. To me one does not compare to the other.

Then again thats just me but id never consider replacing ape for emboar on a team or viceversa just because of the utility or role difference. Comparison with victini is more logical since boar and vict are both purely offensive but like i said, they have different traits so i dont think one outshines the other necessarely. Id say keep all three in C/C+ ranks, id lov3 to see ape ambit higher but i sont think i can make any argument appealing enough to move it up.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Perhaps you misunderstood when I started comparing Emboar to Victini. I was simply bringing up points to start some discussion as to whether anyone has found another niche over Victini that could potentially push Emboar into the Bs. I currently do not believe Emboar is B worthy as I said I think it belongs in C+ for now, but I was starting discussion to see if any better players thought higher of Emboar. And I hardly think C+ is over selling it. I showed calcs comparing it to all the other C+ wall breakers, and Emboar out damages all of them bar Dragalge with their respective most powerful moves. Little did I mention Emboar's coverage moves hit harder than theirs too. I stated why it is arguably better than its Fire/Fighting counterpart Infernape. Then proceeded to point out the advantages it had over Victini, hence proving its viability as isn't outclassed as a physical Fire type wall breaker.
Its not like C+ is that high a rank. If I'm overselling it so much then please explain as to why it doesn't belong next to Mega Camerupt, Dragalge, Staraptor and Mega Medicham.

Camel isn't forced to lock itself into a (recoil) move to hit hard, it also stops VoltTurn in general, stops Thundurus hard in its tracks, has a surprisingly decent typing and bulk for OU, and fits well on the few and far between Trick room teams. Staraptor is fast as all hell and doesn't HAVE to run scarf if it doesn't want to (I know it's the most common set) where as Emboar has to run scarf if it wants to get a dent in before anything else otherwise, chances are recoil kills it or something kills it first. Though Band works well against stall I suppose. Raptor also has something Emboar wishes it had, U-turn, a move that can also give Staraptor the ability to scout or give something a favorable, and safe switch in. It also has some damn good coverage, as does Emboar I'll admit, knowing it has wild charge as well.
As far as Mega Medicham and Dragalge go, I do not agree with their current placement, dragalge being one of the Pokemon this opinion of mine applies to. Then again, who the hell am I to say?
My point is, yes, Emboar can punch holes, it has the means to, but the other Pokemon in C+ have other roles as well, some decently sized ones too, they just have a few too many flaws. Emboar has a couple things going for it, but quite a hefty amount of flaws, its lackluster speed, it's meh typing, and that recoil really hurts over time, leaving it to hitting maybe twice or three times before it goes down.
Out-damaging a Pokemon in a ranking does not automatically put it in the same category as it. Its damage output is nice, but it has a pretty hefty amount of consequences that follow it.

 

[Isa Simple]

I'm getting bored of talking about Emboar so this'll be my last post on it in a while.
I understand where you are coming from on the recoil stuff, and you're right it often dies after around 3 hits, but it is also likely to kill 2 things after 3 hits.
I also noticed that you are over exaggerating its reliance on Choice Scarf. Imo Life Orb is its best set, as you can fire off a nuke not much weaker than the CB set and then proceed to finish off with Sucker Punch, as Sucker Punch is one of Emboar's greatest selling points. I'm sorry if this is contradictory to my previous calcs with CB but I was mainly comparing Emboar's choice set to Dragalge and Victini. I personally like both sets, but hate Scarf. If I'm running a scarf I wanna out speed everything non-scarfed, which is not the case with Emboar. Not saying the Scarf set isn't viable though.

Anyway I'm gibbering again. What I wanted to say is that Emboar is not reliant on Choice items and they are often not his best bet, and that Emboar gets way more switch ins than you give it credit for. Here is a handful of pokemon Emboar can come in on:
Scizor, Sableye, Bisharp, Heatran, Ferrothorn, pretty much any defensive mon that can't hit it super effectively and slower threats that can't OHKO which are again mostly defensive. Obviously it doesn't have the most switch ins but those are some pretty common/relevant threats and it can always be brought in by team support. I've tried both mono attacking sub nasty pass Celebi, Wish BP Sylveon and even VS Rotom-W to great success. So in order to function best it needs some team support a couple slow Volt turns is a small price for something that can 2HKO 90% of the meta game.

So I has poor survivability, speed and struggles with switch ins. Needs some support to function best but when used properly should take out at least 2 or more pokemon each game. Is that not of a C? Notable niches but just as many weaknesses and often requires lots of team support. Only without the often being severely outclassed bit as it has enough traits to separate it from competition, much like Wobbuffet, hence C+ seems more than reasonable. (inb4 hate for comparing Emboar to Wobbuffet).

Anyway I've had enough. That is my opinion on Emboar until someone brings up some decent argument up to sway it, say what you will.

 

[Expert_Occultist]

Ok, what set is used to justify Mega-Diancie's rank of A? I find her frustratingly hard to use. The turn you transform her is the worst. Her speed is awful before evolution and her defense is awful after making her vulnerable to all by the weakest moves. Granted she is amazing after she evolves with great speed, power, and coverage but is it worth the pain suffered that one turn? Maybe I'm missing something here.

 

[Kurona]

Ok, what set is used to justify Mega-Diancie's rank of A? I find her frustratingly hard to use. The turn you transform her is the worst. Her speed is awful before evolution and her defense is awful after making her vulnerable to all by the weakest moves. Granted she is amazing after she evolves with great speed, power, and coverage but is it worth the pain suffered that one turn? Maybe I'm missing something here.

Protect, basically. It was ridiculed before but it's rising to become one of it's most popular sets.