Metagame NP: RU Stage 6: Heavy Metal and Reflective (ALL 3 SUSPECTS BANNED, DISCUSSING POST BANS META NOW)

[Ares]

Its quite hard when coming up with a no ban argument to figure out the inbetween, because I may have made it out that Serperior is terrible when in reality its really good. But then at the same time I think that pro-ban people are overselling how good Serperior is. Finding the inbetween that doesn't oversell or undersell my anti ban argument might be pretty tough. But I digress, I've given most of the points for why I don't think its to great but I don't think imma be swaying any minds as most people are getting hung up on the fact that it has a 130 BP STAB Nasty Plot and doesn't need as much support to set up, still needs a free turn.

 

[Ajna]

Mont, I definitely agree with Serperior being overhyped. Offensive checks such as Mega Pidgeot, Fletch, Moltres, and Emboar really hinder the things success, but this also brings me to my next point. Mega Pidgeot has very few offensive checks. The only one that I can think of is Jolteon, which in my opinion isn't very good in the current meta. Of course there are bulkier checks that still have offense presence such as Eelektross, but the thing is worn down very quickly. It's taking about 45 percent after rocks, a Hurricane, and a U-Turn. I really think that Pidgeot is far more centralizing than Dragalge and Serperior which is contrary (hehe) to what I thought before the test. I'm not fully decided yet on Dragalge just because it has trouble getting past bulky steels but this also hinders team building a lot. Bronzong is on almost every team right now because of these monsters and I really think having them in the meta is unhealthy. It would be much more balanced without them here.

 

[pokemonisfun]

One of the biggest issues with serperior to me is the ease with which it can wear down defensive answers to it, which (golbat excluded) have poor recovery. Being able to do a solid 20% damage to your counter while still setting up is really powerful, because it means each time you come in you can click leaf storm, and (especially when paired with other things to wear down registeel et al) after a couple tries can just win.

Amoonguss has great recovery as does Togetic ^.^ If you really want to talk about defensive answers you need to remember on defensive teams the Leaf Storm PP becomes a serious issue if you just mindlessly spam it when your opponent has one of these guys.

Yes, there are offensive checks to serperior. But this isnt like most set up sweepers, where if youre ballsy you can switch in the revenge killer as it sets up. Leaf storm will do a good chunk of damage to any pokemon that can revenge serperior, other than scarf moltres, and so serperior isn't some useless mon against offense. It won't often sweep, but it can usually pick up a kill when it comes in, which it can do on a fair number of things as it picks off weakened or grass weak mons using its very good base speed.

I wouldn't say its a major plus that grass snekk can pick off mons because picking off mons tends to be an easy task when you fight a weakened mon as opposed to a nice and fresh mon. Anything can pick off a stale weak mon. In fact Serperior is so weak initially because low base special attack it hardly beats any offensive Pokemon one on one at all apart from the Grass weak pokemon! So it really relies on its team to weaken up their opponent first.

And offense isn't even the matchup it thrives in. It is much better against fat teams. So just because it was only another good mon in offense v offense matchups don't say not to ban it when thats its weakest matchup and its primary strength is wallbreaking.

I run a stall team and I would say Serperior is by far the weakest of the three suspects against my team specifically. I use the standard Amoonguss which includes only a bit of special bulk and Golbat with no special defense at all. And of course I have my nice and fresh water mon in Slowking ^_^ which would give some set up time for Serperior but Amoonguss just stops it and Serperior can't get around that :/ It is actually easy with any defensive team to wear down a guy with no recovery and Life Orb and a boosting move that takes damages itself slightly. Ps Amoonguss easily fits on all teams almost because Regenerator is the lulz! Nearly half or so or more of the teams on the ladder use Mega Pidgey so by extension nearly half of the ladder teams have a good solid check/counter to Serperior. Of course if Pidgey gets banned (and Dragale too which easily beats grass snekk one on one) then those options would be gone and snekk would improve :/

 

[mouse de frank]

personally, i think all three should be banned as all of them are able to sweep teams/take out a pokemon they also have few checks which can be worn down with hazards.

Dragalge: i feel this pokemon is the most broken out of all three of the suspected pokemon. After getting adaptability it's hidden ability its wall breaking potential increased significantly, from what i could tell the best checks for drag were registeel and bronzong however, dragalge has accesses to focus blast limiting their ability to switch in and take the hit. dragalge also has the option to run toxic spike allowing it to fit onto balance or hyper offence making stall even easier to beat stall teams that don't have amoongus. dragalge also has stupid balk for RU tier allowing it to switch in on various pokemon.

Pidgeot: mega pidgeot has amazing stats with 135 special attack and a great speed tire as well, not to also mention it gets a 110 BP move that never misses AND has a chance to confuse! it's like all of pidgeots Christmases came at once. with those kind of stats it's very difficult to switch anything into it and when the best check in my opinion (regirock) takes around 30% with rocks up it can easily be worn down for pidget to sweep later. pidgeot is also able to run a work up refresh set which is able to beat registeel one of it's "counters".

Serperior: The biggest thorn in serperior's side is that mega pidgeot isn't banned being one of the few things relevant in the RU metagame that out speed it. Serperior has an amazing ability (contrary) which allows it to essentially set up a nasty plot while taking a decent chunk out of what you switch in not only that but it has the option to run sub so it cannot be statused (one of the easier ways of dealing with this). Serperior has an amazing variety of sets it is able to use. from sub seed to even running HP rock to hit moltres it is incredibly hard to deal with once it gets a sub up.

 

[JerBear the Weirdo]

Dragalge: Everything that others before have said is correct; I could not say it any better. BAN.

Pidgeot: Same answer for Pidgeot, but I don't want to say what others have said then call it my own. BAN.

Serperior: Oh my god, Serperior. I think this thing could end up in OU. If Fire or Flying types are taken out, then this thing WILL sweep. This thing is ridiculous. BAN. ONE HUNDRED YEARS OF BANNING. BAN IT. PLEASE. NOWWWWW.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Ait, I've done some laddering (not a whole lot, I'm a fucking lazy bastard) and made myself an opinion on the current suspects. I guess I'll start off with my initial thoughts though, to give you all an idea on the way I persuaded myself in one way or another.

My initial thoughts regarding first Dragalge was that it was by far ban-worthy. It's massive power, great STABs and good coverage destroyed any kind of switch-in quickly. If you didn't run Bronzong or Registeel, then you'd always lose a mon to it's draco. It's speed, while crippling, was of little issue in the long run as the great typing and above average bulk it has allows it to switch in on a selected few threats and force them out. Considering how useful Toxic Spikes are in any kind of meta that isn't Steel/flying types only, the access to such a move allowed Dragalge to perform beyond the standard Specs Nuke set, and there's also the Haze set that bullies Slurpuff mainly. So yeah, I have only held this thing in some dislike and inclined to ban it.

But I probably wouldn't start off like this unless my thoughts on the subject changed. Granted, it can nuke pretty much everything, but the same can Exploud, Clawitzer, Specs Melo... It's their job. While it forces some teams to run things like Bronzong (It really only does if your offense team can't break Dragalge in the first place...), it in turn can't do anything to Zong as it is aside from hoping for like Double Crit Focus Blast. And it's not like this is a sign of overcentralization; Bronzong is already really good as it takes on all suspects, and more highly rated mons. The bulk allows it to dodge many OHKOs, but it's still 2HKOd by most neutral hits that isn't from defensive mons. It really only is a big issue when it gets a free switch. It hates switching in on Scalds, as burns really hampers it, and hazard damage cuts into it's great bulk. And as such, while it is a really good mon... that's only all it is. Calling it broken would be, in my honest opinion, wrong a this point. NO BAN
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Next is Pidgeot. My initial thoughts where that Pidgeot was a mon that could harass anything offense. I did not know much of the Work Up+Refresh set at the beginning, but when I discovered it I kinda threw it aside and dubbed it a "Tournament only set"... because honestly, it seems like one of those strange sets that destroys that scene. Anyways, the all-out offense set had several things that held it back... and one of them is the fact that it has a small case of 4MSS... despite it's weak movepool. Hurricane and Heat Wave are musts, but the remaining moves are usually something between HP Grass, Roost, U-turn, other support moves like Toxic. You might call this "you can tailor it to beat what you want", but that argument really makes no sense. If it has the tools to beat everything, maybe it wouldn't need to tailor itself to things. Anyways, Pidgeot has a good amount of checks, such as Rhyperior, Bronzong, Registeel, SpD Golbat, Regirock, Jolteon and the likes. And to be honest, it's best way around them all is praying for Confuse hax. So, I didn't really find it broken and would say no ban.

Honestly, my opinion really didn't change a whole lot. It's really good at what it does, making Offense struggle somewhat, but it's 135 SpA is good, but not amazing. I often find myself doing just not enough damage to kill things, and I stand by my old opinion of it: It's a "jack of all Moltres, master of none". I stand by my NO BAN
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Finally Serperior. I found this thing to be an absolute monster, setting up using it's strongest STAB alone is absolutely crazy, and the way it fucks around with Stall (which is my playstyle of choice really) was too bad for me to handle. It's got excellent speed, good bulk and defensive typing(sorta), many sets that differeniates itself from the others, and Life Orb Leaf Storm makes up for it's weak SpA stat. This mon can set up while revenge-killing things, something that really hasn't been the case ever before.. in RU atleast. In many ways I found it comparable to Mega Kang from the get-go, in that it can use it's bulk to take on things while setting up in a highly offensive method. but I did acknowledge it's poor STAB typing and it's coverage moves (which isn't the case of Mega Kang, obviously), and that's why I thought "Oh well, it's too good for RU, but alright in UU or something". So, a combination of excellent speed, alright power on the setup move, and good bulk made me find this thing broken and bad for the meta.

And God was I wrong. I admit it, I overrated it tremendously. This thing is without doubt a really good mon, being a revenge-killing setup sweeper, but one thing I found myself whilst using it is that whenever Golbat or Amoonguss was on the opponent's team, I did literally nothing with Serp. I couldn't waste Leaf Storm PP, unboosted HP Fire/Dragon Pulse does literally nothing at all, and while I did run Knock Off... well, even without the eviolite, Golbat just stood there as a complete stop to it. Even with rocks up, it really couldn't break an Evioliteless Golbat. I found it the weak link of my Serperior team... and ended up removing it completely from it. Then I made a new one with Screens Serp, which worked alright... but mainly because it forced the opponent to make switches in an attempt to counter the regular Life Orb set. It could still snowball end game if it's still alive, but that's really it. Serperior is a pokemon that can snowball sweep, but it rarely happens is my final experience with using it and playing against it. And I ended up not even finding it an S-rank mon, more A really. Banning this is honestly stupid

Just to prove Golbat > Serp
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 184 HP / 236+ SpD Golbat: 42-49 (12.4 - 14.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 172+ SpD Golbat: 157-186 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO

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Finally, I do not imply any of these mons are bad. They are just not broken, and that's my opinion of it.

 

[cxinlee]

On the fence regarding Pidgeot


Dragalge: Adaptibility Draco/Sludge Wave has close to zero counters (I can only think of Registeel/Bronzong), and due to its bulk it can switch in on a lot of things (I used it with Wish Alom, which made it easier), and from there you pick a mon to sack/take a sizeable amount of damage. The best way to beat it is to prevent it from getting into an offensive position, but that’s pretty difficult. It’s decently slow and can be weakened relatively quickly, but I think it’s broken nevertheless. Ban


Serperior: Its niche is being a wallbreaker and a setup sweeper at the same time, but it's not particularly good at either.


As a wallbreaker, it tends to get very few opportunities to get into positions where you force your opponent to switch because of its frailty, and Leaf Storm is a move that is resisted by a lot of pokes in the meta. When you consider that there are numerous things that can actually switch into it (Golbat, Bronzong, Poisons, etc.), it really isn't that good.


I feel that it performs better as a sweeper, because with its good speed, it can clean up weakened teams with +2 Leaf Storm. The main issue is that it’s extremely easy to wear down. After taking a hit a couple of LO hits, it's usually at range where Priority and most attacks can pick it off, which makes it harder to sweep. No Ban

 

[atomicllamas]

A lot of the no ban posts (particularly for Seperior) have been nothing more than "My Golbat and Amoonguss counter it xD" but its important to remember that just because a Pokemon has counters doesn't mean that it isn't broken (and vice versa but that isn't important now ;o). There is a reason that the SPL players all agreed to playing this week with no Serperior even though it wasn't a rule for week 3 in SPL, its because its really easy (read: far to easy) to get yourself in a position to win with Serperior. For example, its strongest Counter (SpD Golbat) has to be above 60% health if it hopes have any chance to counter Serpererior after SR (Rocks + Leaf Storm + Dragon Pulse do 60% minimum to 248 / 252+ Golbat and can do over 66%), Golbat is a Pokemon that is forced to come in often in order to clear hazards/counter Fighting-types so this isn't really that hard to achieve. The thing is Serperior does an incredible job at pressuring it's own counters and can take advantage of this through its 4th move (Leech Seed / Knock Off / Glare / literally anything) or via double switches to increase the pressure to it's counters. Obviously double switching isn't the best argument, but given the risk reward of switching in your counter against Serp or not switching it in it's pretty hard to justify not going to the counter. So while it is true that Serperior is not going to be 6-0ing any well built RU team, it will be easily cleaning most offensive teams, and doing irreparable damage to most defensive teams. I played quite a few games with Serperior and its very obvious it is too much for the tier.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

Just my thoughts atm:

I feel like Dragalge's firepower is a bit too much for RU; sure we have Bronzong and Registeel which can come in a take one, maybe 2 hits, but without Rest they're only checks, and I can't actually think of a 100% counter to Dragalge. For offensive teams, I guess they have Doublade, but that still gets annihilated by Specs Draco Meteor, or they are forced to sack a mon so they can trap it with Dugtrio, but even still; it's claimed a life and (possibly) weaken said Dugtrio so that it can only trap that. It may be slow, but 65/90/123 + good defensive typing is pretty amazing for a Pokemon that can potentially 2hko the whole tier.

Serperior is just a really good mon with STAB 130bp nasty plots, combined with a good 113 base speed makes it an incredible force to be reckoned with. There are a good number of solid checks in the tier like Moltres, Mega Pidgeot and Scarf Emboar and not to forget based lord Golbat, but that doesn't make it any less of a threat. Like what atomicllamas said above, it's really easy to get into a postion where Serperior just wins; almost too easy in fact. No pokemon should be allowed to do that, even with all the checks

I was on the fence about Mega Pidgeot at first, because I wasn't so sure about how good it was, that was until I faced the Work Up set, and that thing just hits so hard at +1. No Guard Hurricanes are already so good but give them a power boost and it's breaking everything. We do have checks to Mega Pidgeot like Rhyperior, Heatproof Bronzong and Registeel; the problem with them is that they all get trapped by Dugtrio, which makes Mega Pidgeot even more dangerous.

 

[Senpai D.M]

A lot of the no ban posts (particularly for Seperior) have been nothing more than "My Golbat and Amoonguss counter it xD" but its important to remember that just because a Pokemon has counters doesn't mean that it isn't broken (and vice versa but that isn't important now ;o). There is a reason that the SPL players all agreed to playing this week with no Serperior even though it wasn't a rule for week 3 in SPL, its because its really easy (read: far to easy) to get yourself in a position to win with Serperior. For example, its strongest Counter (SpD Golbat) has to be above 60% health if it hopes have any chance to counter Serpererior after SR (Rocks + Leaf Storm + Dragon Pulse do 60% minimum to 248 / 252+ Golbat and can do over 66%), Golbat is a Pokemon that is forced to come in often in order to clear hazards/counter Fighting-types so this isn't really that hard to achieve. The thing is Serperior does an incredible job at pressuring it's own counters and can take advantage of this through its 4th move (Leech Seed / Knock Off / Glare / literally anything) or via double switches to increase the pressure to it's counters. Obviously double switching isn't the best argument, but given the risk reward of switching in your counter against Serp or not switching it in it's pretty hard to justify not going to the counter. So while it is true that Serperior is not going to be 6-0ing any well built RU team, it will be easily cleaning most offensive teams, and doing irreparable damage to most defensive teams. I played quite a few games with Serperior and its very obvious it is too much for the tier.

So we testing Slurpuff too right? Joking aside, It would be great to see how the meta would be with Snake gone no more steel types being a forced slot in team building.

 

[Empress]

Ok, finally got reqs, so here come my thoughts on Bird Jesus and Serperior.

Mega Pidgeot

The omnipresent Rock-types should be a complete stop to Mega Pidgeot, right? WRONG. Similar to how Gunk Shot pushed Greninja over the edge, who knew that freaking HP Grass could help a mon get past so many of its supposed counters? Moreover, though Pidgeot isn't exactly a wallbreaker, the confusion damage from its perfectly accurate Hurricane can actually help it get past some dedicated special walls, including Slowking and Cresselia. Again, I was skeptical that the confusion could break Pidgeot, and while it doesn't do that per se, it certainly introduces what we might call an "uncompetitive" aspect. Couple that with Heat Wave to get past most Steel-types, and its Speed and power that we all know about, and you have a monster on your hands.

On the flipside, Bird Jesus has its fair share of checks and counters in RU, including but not limited to Choice Scarf users, Golbat, Jolteon, Registeel, Bronzong, Tyrantrum, Rhyperior (sort of), and hell even Lanturn. Seriously, the amount of Lanturn I faced on the ladder was staggering. Stealth Rock also prevents it from switching in and cleaning up, and the defensive Pokemon that it cannot break enjoy using Thunder Wave and Toxic to shut it down. If Pidgeot has a status problem, it really can't do shit. Nonetheless, as we know, whether a mon has checks and counters does not mean that it's not broken. Though the RU environment has ways to deal with Mega Pidgeot, its ability to be a late-game cleaner and muscle past most of the Rock- and Steel-types that would otherwise check it makes it too much for RU to deal with in my opinion. Therefore, I say ban.

Serperior

Ok, this is a no-brainer. With a damaging version of Nasty Plot, Serp sets up on damn near half the tier far too easily. It's not often that you hear the term "fast wallbreaker" either. Serp has so many opportunities to come in, clean up a slower, weakened mon (which it can do easily with its 113 Speed), and proceed to deal serious damage to offensive and defensive teams alike. Don't pull out Golbat or Amoonguss as arguments, either. Atomicllamas said pretty much everything that needs to be said about Golbat, while Serp actually can beat Amoonguss 1v1. If Amoonguss switches into Serp's Leaf Storm, Serp will 2HKO it with a +2 HP Fire, and avoid the 2HKO from Sludge Bomb. It can also get a Leaf Storm on a switch-in from Mega Sceptile, avoid the 2HKO from even Sceptile's X-Scissor, and one-shot it back with a +2 Dragon Pulse. Yes, an unboosted HP Fire or Dragon Pulse does not do much to anything. But it's so easy for Serp to get a Leaf Storm up that you basically have to do the majority of your calcs with it at +2. And yes, Serp is prone to Choice Scarf users, particularly Moltres, Emboar, and Braviary, in addition to having other checks/counters in Fletchinder and Eelektross. But that's where your other teammates come in, and Serp completely wrecks the vast majority of the metagame outside of its checks and counters. I've even seen a rise in subpar mons, such as Cinccino and Bouffalant, solely for the sake of checking Serp. As ginganinja said, "if you are using garbage mons to check a top tier sweeper, then it's potentially a good indicator as to how unhealthy it is." Its sheer power warrants a ban; no question about it.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

On returning to the RU tier after a long period of time I was sad to see that ORAS means it is currently far from balanced. It's good fun using these three pokemon but based on my experience I think that they are all too much for the tier for one reason or another. I'll keep it concise since I imagine most of it has been said by this point.

Pidgeot - This is probably the one out of the three that gives most teams the hardest time from my perspective. A decent 101 speed pre mega gives it the easy opportunities to evolve against the majority of the tier, and good luck outspeeding it once it megas. Decent offensive checks that could switch in, outspeed and ko were limited to Jolteon basically, common scarfers take too much from hurricane. This means in practice that it pressure offense insanely with a fully accurate, 110 bp stab flying type move with a 30 percent confuse chance. This is the same chance as a scald burn and can make counters become a 50 50 check, this happens more often than you would think and the more chances pidgeot has to come in the more likely it is to break through. It has the bulk to take a hit as it can take glalie ice shard/ fletchinder acrobat after rocks for example. Flying type moves are not easy to resist in ru, and heat wave heavily damages steel types.
U-turn and Roost give it the tools to beat defensive teams. Set up hazards, U-turn as they are forced to bring in their counter and force them out again. The stealth rock weakness hurts pidgeot but nowhere near enough to stop it being broken. My pidgeot outlasts rhyperior more times than it doesn't. In general its speed and power is just a cut above the rest of RU at the moment, hurricane is too easy to spam risk free pretty much.

Serperior is pretty simple. Nasty plot and a 130 bp stab move in one turn quickly remove any reservations you might have had about the 75 sp atk. Offensive leaf storm resists are usually weak to rocks which further adds to the difficulty of switching in if they weren't 2hkoed anyway. 113 speed means that outspeeding is difficult (but not to the same extent as pidgeot), and decent bulk can take neutral hits. Serperior is broken due to the plays it will force (100%) you to make because it will snowball if you don't. This leads to the serperior user holding all the winning cards and make playing with it predictably easy. For example golbat, who should be a solid counter, has to come straight in basically. This means that if you set rocks up you can double pretty easily and wear it down since you know it really has to come in. Setting up and attacking is just too big of an advantage for serperior when compared to what the rest of the tier has to offer.

Dragalge is the hardest sell for the banlist. Its weaknesses are clear - low speed and group of steel type switch ins to hinder its nukes. However I feel that its positives outweight the negatives to the extent that it is broken. It is massively powerful. At -2 draco is still bloody strong. -2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Emboar: 272-320 (75.3 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. You have to resist its stabs and have good bulk to switch in. A nice typing defensively and excellent special bulk mean that it will get opportunities to switch in/take hits and retaliate with a cataclysmic attack. The icing is focus blast to smack registeel up, and scald for that oh so delicious burn chance to weaken the pokes on stall that could handle it like bronzong or doublade.

So I think that all three should be banned for the balance of the tier. All three are useable in ou so I can still have fun with them there.

 

[Steve Angello]

First, I did not play RU at all, but now by laddering and gaining some practice, I am like, that Dragalge does not need a ban. It has some good counters and checks and you can play around it. Furthermore you can easily outspeed it. Of course it is most likely the best stallbreaker, but good stall teams, which I faced on the ladder, were able to deal with it, like most teams do. Mega Bird is controversial. You can argue with the Rocksweak and the shaky good coverage, but like Dragalge it has some checks and counters, like Bronzong. It handles both Pokemons pretty well, from what I have seen. In my opinion its not really ban worthy either. Serperior is a different thread in my opinion. It definitly deserves a ban, because contracy is broken, really. If you hit some well timed Knock offs on Golbat, it turns into set up baid, with the right set, same goes for Bronzong etc. The combination of its speed and ability and good coverage makes it ban worthy. I'd say pro ban: serp, but keep Dragalge and Mega Bird!

 

[lighthouses]

First, I did not play RU at all, but now by laddering and gaining some practice, I am like, that Dragalge does not need a ban. It has some good counters and checks and you can play around it. Furthermore you can easily outspeed it. Of course it is most likely the best stallbreaker, but good stall teams, which I faced on the ladder, were able to deal with it, like most teams do. Mega Bird is controversial. You can argue with the Rocksweak and the shaky good coverage, but like Dragalge it has some checks and counters, like Bronzong. It handles both Pokemons pretty well, from what I have seen. In my opinion its not really ban worthy either. Serperior is a different thread in my opinion. It definitly deserves a ban, because contracy is broken, really. If you hit some well timed Knock offs on Golbat, it turns into set up baid, with the right set, same goes for Bronzong etc. The combination of its speed and ability and good coverage makes it ban worthy. I'd say pro ban: serp, but keep Dragalge and Mega Bird!

The problem with all that is over centralization, in theory you can deal with all of the suspects, sure, but that forces you to run the same two/three mons on every team, and that's extremely unhealthy to the metagame in general.

 

[Steve Angello]

The problem with all that is over centralization, in theory you can deal with all of the suspects, sure, but that forces you to run the same two/three mons on every team, and that's extremely unhealthy to the metagame in general.

I do agree with you, that over centralization is a big problem, but you can handle them "well". All those Pokemon struggle with something and like I said Bronzong checkes both to an extend. Using Bronzong means, you need something for Knock Panda. RU is not my maintier and I get what you are trying to explain, but I do not see the need of a ban of those two pokemons, because they are checked pretty decent. It is just my opinion, if you disagree I will accept that of course.

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

Got reqs so compulsory opinion regarding the suspects post.

Banning all three. Dragalzhe was the only one I was still thinking about but I came to the conclusion that it's too much. I won't waste time repeting what everyone is saying cause it's irrelevant, as we all know that all three are strong, team restrictive (This was a disgusting experience. Fucking fat steels everywhere! EVERYWHERE!) and can sweep through teams easily. Especially Mega Pidgeot, which besides too powerful also borders on the uncompetitive side with Hurricane confusion serving as a clutch "Screw You Counter" that makes anyone win with dumb sets. As a proof, here is a replay with Robert Alfons and a random that won because of the hax factor. Also fuck Cresselia.

 

[Psynergy]

I got reqs awhile back so I figure I should at least voice my opinion on the three suspects, sorry if I sound like I'm beating a dead horse with some of this. I actually had some fun playing with the suspects around (though that probably doesn't mean much as someone who legit enjoyed Ubers with Mega Ray too). That said I don't really feel like any of the three have a healthy presence in RU. Echoing what was said above I feel they all put too much strain on teambuilding, which is arguably worse than something having no counters.

Serperior is handled by Golbat and Amoonguss handily, and stuff like Fletchinder and Scarf Moltres/Emboar can revenge it but most of the rest of the tier runs a huge risk of letting Serperior get to +2 or even +4 for free thanks to that speed. I also want to emphasize how big it is that a base 113 Pokemon can wallbreak and sweep in this tier with the same set since I feel that hasn't been touched upon enough. It's already been pointed out that Serperior isn't some god Mega Ray that's going to be 6-0'ing good teams and anyone who laddered with Serperior knows this. But if the only thing Serperior accomplishes is muscling its way past a wall the rest of your team struggles with then that's already a big contribution (I mean it is a wallbreaker for a reason), and few walls in this tier can avoid being overwhelmed by repeated Leaf Storms + coverage so that's not very difficult to do. Which goes back to the restrictive teambuilding point. Unless you have something that comfortably stops it, Serperior has way too easy of a time overwhelming its opponent. As much as I liked laddering with Serperior I think the tier would be better without it.

Mega Pidgeot is something I wasn't sure about when I started laddering, I didn't see how something with an offensive movepool consisting of Hurricane/Heat Wave/Hidden Power/U-turn could be so bad, but now I see why. Offense teams hate this thing, unless you're running Jolteon you really don't have many options. Scarfers exist but even some of those have trouble taking out Mega Pidgeot without prior damage. Rhyperior and AV Eelektross are respectable ways to deal with it too but neither likes switching into repeated Hurricanes (or HP Grass for the former) and the fast U-turning makes it even easier to wear down its sturdier threats. This thing isn't unstoppable but I don't like the amount of strain Mega Pidgeot puts on offense.

As for Dragalge I've been on the fence for awhile, even after initially getting reqs. Offense-focused teams tend to not have a ton of switch-ins in general so of course I had trouble switching stuff into this thing, and actually taking it down isn't particularly hard with an offense team. But I think what makes Dragalge most threatening is its power even without Specs. A Dragalge that can switch moves is honestly really terrifying, and the ability to run Toxic Spikes allows it to put even more pressure on the huge amount of switches it already forces with that typing. The low speed brings it down and makes revenging it much less of a problem but Adaptability just gives it so much raw power.

Honestly I wish I could say I want to keep even one of them, but I personally feel the tier would be more enjoyable if they all left. They're not impossible to deal with but they're a bit too over-centralizing for my liking.

 

[Nova]

Just got reqs so I'll share my thoughts on the suspects. I laddered with a variety of teams including Trick Room, Stall, and Bulky Offense. I found the most effective team to be a bulky Offense that consisted of Scarf Durant, Lanturn, Sub CM Cresselia, Sub SD Bouffalant, CB Panda, and Mega Camerupt. Scarf Durant put in a lot of work, can revenge Sceptile, Serperior, and Pidgeot and the sheer power of Hustle allowed it to muscle through teams. Sub SD Bouffalant was a decent check to Serperior as well as an okay check to Sceptile. Mega Camerupt is so good in this meta with its bulk to take hits and hit insanely hard with STAB Sheer Force Fire Blast and Earth Power. Toxic handles things that would try to come in such as Slowking and Alomamola. Finally, shoutout to Sub CM Moonblast Moonlight Cresselia. Sets up on so many things and can easily sweep.

Now thoughts on the suspects. Serperior is the one I feel most confident about banning. Ya you can run some niche check such as Golbat or Amoonguss but it's still going to put a number on the rest of your team. Having Serperior just makes you realize that if you can chip away at the Golbat or Amoonguss, then Serperior can eventually break through while all the while throwing +2 Leaf Storms at the rest of your team that is susceptible to Serperior since you are running such a hard check. Teams without a Golbat/Amoonguss, you have to play extremely cautiously against the Serperior or it can easily get a Leaf Storm off and then sweep or chunk through a majority of your team. Serperior's fast speed also makes it even more difficult to deal with since you'll have to either scarf something fast or run priority. In general, Serperior just restricts team building as well as actual battling since you need to play so cautiously around it.

I am on the fence about Pidgeot. It definitely has more checks than Serperior and you can play around it since it's weak to Stealth Rock and doesn't have the luxury to mindlessly click a move that boosts its Special Attack. Still the coverage is great and even some standard checks such as Rhyperior and Lanturn cannot take multiple Hidden Power Grasses. It also has the factor of luck through 30% chance of confusion on Hurricane that turns would be counters into non counters. In summary, Mega Pidgeot has great coverage and power and although it has a decent handful of checks, it can always work around these checks with Hurricane. I am leaning towards Abstain for now but could be persuaded either way.

Lastly, I do not think Dragalge should be banned. If it comes in cleanly, it will be able to get a kill with its decent bulk and incredible power with Adaptability. However, there are a number of other Pokmeon like this such as Mega Camerupt. From my experience, Dragalge pretty much takes out one Pokemon on the opposing team and then gets revenged immediately after due to its abysmal speed and weaknesses to common Attacking types. It's essentially a Pokemon that turns most matchups into a 5-5 instead of a 6-6. It doesn't really have an overcentralizing effect on the metagame and does not restrict teambuilding. I feel that it is a good mon but not one that is ban worthy and can still contribute to a "healthy" RU metagame.

 

[Yagura]

I wanted to post here earlier but I thought it'd be wiser to get the reqs first as I'll have more knowledge about the tier and the suspected threats, and yea I got the reqs few minutes ago and here is my post:

First of all I'll talk about Mega Pidgeot which I think is the most broken one in all the three mons, great 135 Special Attack stat accompanied by a solid 121 Speed stat (101 Speed before mega evolving is nice too) makes it really threatening along with firing 100% accurate Hurricanes (not to mention the confuse change which can be so game deciding but let's not talk about that) and Heat Waves which is a really solid coverage that is only resisted by the few viable Rock-types in the tier which can be really problematic especially for HO teams as there aren't much Rock-types (and other Pidgeot checks such as bulky Steel-types that don't mind Heat Wave much) that fit well in that playstyle making it heavily restrict teambuilding, and pair Mega Pidgeot with Dugtrio which lets it trap and heavily hurt if not KO those Rock- and Steel-types allowing Pidgeot to have an easier time cleaning the opponent's team. Pidgeot also has U-turn which it can use when predicting a check to switch in allowing to gain the momentum by switching into something that can take down that check (mainly Dugtrio if the opponent goes with a Rock- or Steel-type,) and it can also run HP Grass to lure in Rhyperior and 2HKO it, it also has Roost which improves its longevity along with its average 83/80/80 bulk. I don't have much else to say, every thing that should be said had already been mentioned by the other pro-Pidgeotite-ban users, so I'm also leaning towards Ban.

Another mon that I think is really threatening will be Dragalge which is so broken with Adaptability that lets it 2HKO if not OHKO anything that doesn't resist it and its great offensive STABs that is only resisted by Steel-types which can't even switch in more than twice into Draco Meteor as they lack a reliable recovery except Registeel which runs Rest (which isn't even reliable), these Steel-types can also be taken down using Dugtrio which can trap them with Arena Trap (except Doublade) which gives Dragalge a better time nuking through teams with Draco Meteor and Sludge Bomb. However it's so slow and is prone to getting trapped and revenge killed by Dugtrio whcih can OHKO it if it has LO w/ EQ but still Dragalge has an unhealthy presence in RU with its heavy restriction to teambuilding, and I'm pretty sure RU will be way better and more variant with Dragalge going to BL2 so I'm going ban with this one.

Lastly there is Serperior which I'm not really 100% sure about, having a Nasty Plot+130 BP STAB in one turn is too much, it also has a solid bulk and high Speed but it can be checked quite easily by a lot of stuff and revenge killed by scarfers such as Emboar and Moltres or mons that are naturally faster but like I said I'm not quite sure so for now I'll abstain until I settle on an opinion about it which isn't likely to happen.

 

[Ramplestilskin]

that lets it 2HKO if not OHKO anything that doesn't resist it and its great offensive STABs that is only resisted by Steel-types which can't even switch in more than twice

You're taking about Exploud right ?
Seriously, being able to 2HKO the whole metagame with the proper move when you're Specs, relying on a move that lower your SpAtk by two stages (letting opponents have a free set up most of the time) doesn't mean anything. Because it has Surf, Flamethrower and Surf, he thing that take Spec Exploud best is Meloetta, taking about 30% damage from Boomburst when AV (so it can be wear down very quickly with some support, say pursuit or SR), and Slowking AV which takes 50% so it's not even a check. Nothing can take Exploud's attack well, that's why it's named a "Wallbreaker" you know. So, except if every Wallbreaker in the game is broken (and Dragalge is actually so slow that only the Wallbreaker and not sweeper role can be taken into account), I don't think Dragalge is broken at all. Same goes for Clawitzer, the LO Wallbreaker set, well can't be walled, that doesn't make it broken. And those two examples (Exploud+Clawitzer) don't have the drawback of lowering their SpAtk by 2 if they really want to fulfill their role.
And, if you're gonna say that it has other potential sets like Draco plate, TSpikes or whatever, I fully agree with it. Yeah, Dragalge can be versatile. But those version aren't broken either, Draco plate or TSpikes are actually walled by a significant amount of Pokemon, mostly Steel types. I can mention AV Escavalier which is so good in the metagame, taking on Serp and Pidgeot to an extent (Heat Wave and +2 HP fire don't OHKO), and this Escavalier take pitifull damage from Draco plate Dragon pulse, no damage from Sludge Bomb and about 50% on HP Fire which isn't even threatening enough.

So, really, DO NOT BAN Dragalge

 

[lighthouses]

The difference between dragalge and exploud/clawitzer is that galge can actually come in versus offensive teams, a lot, while with the other two it's extremely hard to do so.
And dragalge is faster than escavalier, lol, how is doing 50% not threatening enough ?
Edit:252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Hidden Power Fire vs. 174 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 224-268 (69.1 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 174 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 122-144 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If it comes in on hp fire once it cant come in on draco again, so yeah.

 

[phantom]

I'd like to add that Dragalge's immunity to Toxic (and ability to absorb T-spikes) make it a lot more difficult for defensive teams to play around, in addition to Dragalge having more resists/bulk which it makes it easier for it to find switch-in opportunities and attack. For instance, with Exploud, SpD Alomomola can tank even a Specs Boomburst, hit it with Toxic, click Protect, and then switch to an appropriate resist to tank the attack. Exploud is very easy to beat, even for slower teams, if you know what you're doing. This is a lot harder to due vs Dragalge because of said immunity to Toxic, it also doesn't help that Dragalge switches in on defensive teams more easily thanks to its resists and bulk, the same can't be said for Exploud which is another key factor in making it easy to play around. I think Dragalge has a very negative impact on the meta, to the point where this meta has basically become "use Bronzong or get fucked" because most Dragalge checks have to predict to win (i.e. dodge a coverage move in the case of Mega Steelix) or can get crippled by Sludge Bomb's psn chance (think Cresselia) then destroyed by a Specs Draco Meteor the next time Dragalge switches in. I really don't see why people think this Pokemon isn't broken, unlike other wallbreakers, status doesn't bother it as much, it absorbs T-spikes, it has great bulk/resists (which gives it some solid consistency vs offense), and it can even outdamage Choice Specs Latios, it's clearly a step ahead of the others.

I don't plan to try and ladder for this test because I can't stand laddering and I doubt my one vote will make a difference anyway, but every single one of these suspects needs to leave. I urge voters to really look at whether or not this meta is desirable because afaik, not a single RU player playing in SPL thinks RU is in a good place right now, and many are of the opinion (including myself) that RU is in fact in a terrible state. Something needs to be done here; there is no way one can vote no ban on all three suspects and have proper meta knowledge; I even read some of the no ban posts claiming something along the lines of, "it's hard to come up with anti-ban reasoning" which is probably a pretty big hint in and of itself.

 

[Ramplestilskin]

The difference between dragalge and exploud/clawitzer is that galge can actually come in versus offensive teams, a lot, while with the other two it's extremely hard to do so.
And dragalge is faster than escavalier, lol, how is doing 50% not threatening enough ?
Edit:252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Hidden Power Fire vs. 174 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 224-268 (69.1 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 174 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 122-144 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If it comes in on hp fire once it cant come in on draco again, so yeah.

Draco plate or TSpikes are actually walled by a significant amount of Pokemon, mostly Steel types. I can mention AV Escavalier which is so good in the metagame

First it may seem like you made a mistake in the item lol. And second, Dragalge won't be doing HP fire if it's Tspike, it will Tspikes. So Escavalier win because Dragalge has to switch out if it doesn't want to be killed.

And lol it can't come in versus offensive team, or at least give proof because it will often take two hits before being killed meaning only one switch in. SR doesn't help either

 

[lighthouses]

First it may seem like you made a mistake in the item lol. And second, Dragalge won't be doing HP fire if it's Tspike, it will Tspikes. So Escavalier win.

And lol it can't come in versus offensive team, or at least give proof because it will often take two hits before being killed meaning only one switch in. SR doesn't help either

I did make a mistake i guess, sorry about that, but my point remains, if it has hidden power fire(which is totally viable even on tspikes) i'm pretty sure it will go for hidden power fire on your escavalier, and even if it doesn't it can just setup a tspike as you go into it, then having a really good chance to 2hko you.
252+ Atk Escavalier Drill Run vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 216-256 (67.2 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Dragalge Hidden Power Fire vs. 174 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 152-180 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- 71.5% chance to 2HKO
Also i agree with spirit 100%, we have to do something about this metagame, lol

 

[Double01]

Just to reiterate some points about Dragalge that might sway you to think its ban worthy.

Firstly, Dragalge vs offense is one of the scariest mons to face cause literally nothing on offensive can survive one or two hits. It is really not too difficult either to get dragalge in safely. With the help of slow voltturn, from the likes of lanturn, gligar, or eel, dragalge can fire a powerful specs dmeteor vs offensive teams. Unlike other playstyles, offense can't truly afford to run these slow bulky mons like registeel or cress because these mons just lost momentum. Even more offensive checks like AV escav are easily worn down because of the lack recovery. So basically every time dragalge gets in it will net a kill.

Many argue that Exploud is just as threatening. However, exploud doesn't have the 6 resistances that dragalge has which allows drag to to actually switch into mons. Others have also mentioned that drag has the much added benefit of not being able to be toxiced. While Dragalge is considerably slower than exploud, its speed is still good enough to outspeed the important bulky mons, namely Rhyperior.

Overall dragalge has the right amount of resistances and the inability be poisoned which pushes it over the edge of being banned worthy. Hopefully this somewhat sways you to vote to ban drag.