-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Ares
- Start date
- Status
wait can someone explain to me why Feraligatr isn't still in S-Rank? The meta shifts haven't hindered it at all as it sets up on Mantine (which is everywhere rn) and is a soft check to Mega Steelix. If anything it got better because it lost a check in Sceptile and it's DD set also gains from the lack of scarf rotoms running around. Can anyone explain?
Going to have to agree w/ The Goomy because Mantine is so good right now. It's capable of checking top threats like Mega Steelix, Mega Camerupt (fuck Rock Slide), and Typhlosion (I would say it can check Gatr, too, but +2 non-STAB attacks do a shitton and it's rock weak, so not too strong a check). In addition to this, it provides defog support when playing the defensive variants and it is a surprisingly hard hitter from the offensive side of the spectrum when you give it specs (cased's set). Overall, I'd say it's a solid B+/A- (lean A-).
In regards to Gatr for S, I'm sort of on the fence about this. While it can be potent late game, it is still able to be stopped late game more often than not (in my experience) and it has a fair amount of checks/counters (Lili, Seismi, Garbo (can wear it down a ton at worst), Ludi, Qwil, Lanturn, Poli, Leafeon, Tangela, etc.), so all of this going against it leads me to believe that Gatr, while a top tier physical sweeper with fair bulk and offensive prowess, is still fine in A+ rank.
Agreeing with Malamar moving up, too (probably to A, but A- would still be ok). It's a godsend against bulky/passive teams who cannot break through it too easily as it just superpowers a couple times and eventually breaks through everything, especially if it's a rest variant with enhanced survivability, while it's still capable of getting a kill or two against unprepared offensive teams, but they're more likely of being able to break through it given a decent chance and Malamar cannot switch in too well, either.
Finally, I think a couple things worth discussing could be Tangela going to b+ and Bouff to b. The former is a nice tank that can do work against offense as it hits surprisingly hard and can sleep something while sponging multiple physical attacks while the latter is a nice sweeper of slower, bulkier teams when sd (especially sub sd, from my experience with it). I'm not too sold on either tho
In regards to Gatr for S, I'm sort of on the fence about this. While it can be potent late game, it is still able to be stopped late game more often than not (in my experience) and it has a fair amount of checks/counters (Lili, Seismi, Garbo (can wear it down a ton at worst), Ludi, Qwil, Lanturn, Poli, Leafeon, Tangela, etc.), so all of this going against it leads me to believe that Gatr, while a top tier physical sweeper with fair bulk and offensive prowess, is still fine in A+ rank.
Agreeing with Malamar moving up, too (probably to A, but A- would still be ok). It's a godsend against bulky/passive teams who cannot break through it too easily as it just superpowers a couple times and eventually breaks through everything, especially if it's a rest variant with enhanced survivability, while it's still capable of getting a kill or two against unprepared offensive teams, but they're more likely of being able to break through it given a decent chance and Malamar cannot switch in too well, either.
Finally, I think a couple things worth discussing could be Tangela going to b+ and Bouff to b. The former is a nice tank that can do work against offense as it hits surprisingly hard and can sleep something while sponging multiple physical attacks while the latter is a nice sweeper of slower, bulkier teams when sd (especially sub sd, from my experience with it). I'm not too sold on either tho
^ agree completely with Finchinator, especially about Mantine, except that Malamar shouldn't rise that high imo because it doesn't do that well vs teams with extremely hard hitters or that are just more offensive.
In addition, I'd like to see Musharna from A- to A, or even A+ but that might be a stretch. I'd venture as far to say that Musharna is the best Fighting-type switch-in in the tier and is a very good lategame wincon with the CM set. Unlike Uxie and Mesprit this thing gets reliable recovery so it can do it multiple times in a match and is just overall very bulky. Also gets space for Healing Wish or Heal Bell.
Lanturn too should move up from B to B+ imo. It's the safest switch-in to the v common Mantine and counters most Electric-types, provides bulky teams with a solid Volt Switch pivot, a cleric, as well as a secondary check to the likes of Gatr and Fire-types. No recovery sucks but its typing is great and helps it check important stuff.
Edit: also Probo probably should move from C+ to B-
In addition, I'd like to see Musharna from A- to A, or even A+ but that might be a stretch. I'd venture as far to say that Musharna is the best Fighting-type switch-in in the tier and is a very good lategame wincon with the CM set. Unlike Uxie and Mesprit this thing gets reliable recovery so it can do it multiple times in a match and is just overall very bulky. Also gets space for Healing Wish or Heal Bell.
Lanturn too should move up from B to B+ imo. It's the safest switch-in to the v common Mantine and counters most Electric-types, provides bulky teams with a solid Volt Switch pivot, a cleric, as well as a secondary check to the likes of Gatr and Fire-types. No recovery sucks but its typing is great and helps it check important stuff.
Edit: also Probo probably should move from C+ to B-
I'm going to suggest a downgrade for Piloswine, maybe to B- from where it's standing now at B+.
I feel like its' niche is long gone now that we don't have to deal with Mega Glalie anymore. It is vastly outclassed by other rock setters that have a better typing for a metagame filled with Fighting, Water and Fire spam (e.g. Seismitoad) and it doesn't really have that much bulk to make up for the lack of power. Besides those, it is often dead weight against common FWG cores or the newer popular core of M-Steelix + Mantine.
The only thing it has going on for it lately is priority Ice Shard, which I don't think benefits a team that much paired with all the other weak spots of Piloswine.
I feel like its' niche is long gone now that we don't have to deal with Mega Glalie anymore. It is vastly outclassed by other rock setters that have a better typing for a metagame filled with Fighting, Water and Fire spam (e.g. Seismitoad) and it doesn't really have that much bulk to make up for the lack of power. Besides those, it is often dead weight against common FWG cores or the newer popular core of M-Steelix + Mantine.
The only thing it has going on for it lately is priority Ice Shard, which I don't think benefits a team that much paired with all the other weak spots of Piloswine.
Malamar to A+/S
there are two types of people in this world. those who think malamar should at least be A+ rank, and those who have not tried the specially defensive Rest Talk set
Seriously, this thing is a MONSTER
it can sweep through teams with ease and has very few counters (Accelgor and eviolite Scyther).
Im gonna go ahead and say going to leave NU eventually due to usage, but until then Chtulhu Jr. can continue to destroy everything which tries to oppose him.
Let me quote the S rank description:
"Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths."
Do any of the categories match Typhlosion?
"Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support"
As rewarding as his sweeps are Typhlosion needs a lot of support. He cant switch in making you need to sacrifice a mon, he needs a clear playground for him to sweep so defog is a must
"Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability"
Typhlosion hes only one threatening set, Scarf Eruption. every other set just isn't threatening enough (Specs is an option but its countered way to easily)
So I want Typhlosion to A+
And S rank needs to be filled with pokemon who do match the description (I might add reasons later)
Hariyama to S
Feraligatr to S
Uxie to S
there are two types of people in this world. those who think malamar should at least be A+ rank, and those who have not tried the specially defensive Rest Talk set
Seriously, this thing is a MONSTER
it can sweep through teams with ease and has very few counters (Accelgor and eviolite Scyther).
Im gonna go ahead and say going to leave NU eventually due to usage, but until then Chtulhu Jr. can continue to destroy everything which tries to oppose him.
Let me quote the S rank description:
"Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths."
Do any of the categories match Typhlosion?
"Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support"
As rewarding as his sweeps are Typhlosion needs a lot of support. He cant switch in making you need to sacrifice a mon, he needs a clear playground for him to sweep so defog is a must
"Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability"
Typhlosion hes only one threatening set, Scarf Eruption. every other set just isn't threatening enough (Specs is an option but its countered way to easily)
So I want Typhlosion to A+
And S rank needs to be filled with pokemon who do match the description (I might add reasons later)
Hariyama to S
Feraligatr to S
Uxie to S
Flawed logic here, scarf is the most threatening set but specs is countered too easily:
Specs does more damage, yet its easier to counter?
Personally, Specs to my teams (and most others) is much better than as a scarf set. It allows it to beat on your opponents switching (like hariyama) more powerfully and as a result does more damage to balanced teams in NU which has to be said, is a really balanced team heavy meta rn. I look at specs as THE typhlosion set, and scarf as the annoying other thing it does but out of nothing but sheer surprise.
specs typh is literally one of the hardest hitting sets in the metagame, to the extent that it 3HKOes even a lot of its own counters [most of the stuff that does counter it lack recovery], making it really easy to get past its counters to sweep teams. furthermore, your argument for it needing too much support, you don't even need to remove hazards, because if your opponent brings you into your blaze range, fire blast hits harder than your original eruption. I'm sorry but your logic is incredibly flawed.
Uxie has no business being in S and neither does Hariyama. I don't see how either matches the description which seems to be our only point.
Uxie was S-worthy back when the subCM set was incredible, now it's bad because it loses to Malamar if it doesn't run Signal Beam, and Steelix if it does. I've always felt that the Stealth Rock support set is overrated by a lot of people, because while it does have a nice number of support moves available, it has trouble fitting them in one set, since you want rocks, status, u-turn and then probably Psychic so you can actually do damage to things in a pinch. It has awful defensive typing and no offensive presence, meaning it doesn't fit on offensive teams at all, while balance and such would probably rather use Musharna as their bulky psychic since it's a lot more reliable at doing its job and you want your SR setter to double as a normal/flying check a lot of the time. It just doesn't seem to find its place on teams well. Weather support is great and probably the best set for Uxie atm, being the best at enabling one of the tier's strongest playstyles. TrickScarf is pretty fun and good too, though it overlaps a lot with the support set, except it fits much better on offense. So yea 2 good sets, one of which only fits on a very specific archetype. I really can't see that being S.
Typhlosion fits S incredibly well. It really is not easy to counter since all it takes is 1 or 2 rather easy predictions to muscle past most of its checks, depending on its moveset. You are honestly handcuffed whenever Typhlosion hits the field because you're forced to go into your fire check or risk straight up losing a mon thanks to Typh's absurd power with Specs. Typhlosion, like other great wallbreakers, can really pick its counters and you can build your team around that. Pair that with an amazing speed tier and you have a behemoth of a pokemon that almost rivals the impact Charizard had on the meta in BW2. Though I really am interested to hear what is your way of "countering" Typhlosion.
Gatr is not S because people finally started using shit that beats it easily instead of just complaining. It's fine in A+ for the moment, we'll see what happens after drops.
Hariyama doesn't fit the definition in any way, it's a very solid mon but honestly it only has 1 relevant set with little deviations and it's pretty easy to wear down.
Uxie was S-worthy back when the subCM set was incredible, now it's bad because it loses to Malamar if it doesn't run Signal Beam, and Steelix if it does. I've always felt that the Stealth Rock support set is overrated by a lot of people, because while it does have a nice number of support moves available, it has trouble fitting them in one set, since you want rocks, status, u-turn and then probably Psychic so you can actually do damage to things in a pinch. It has awful defensive typing and no offensive presence, meaning it doesn't fit on offensive teams at all, while balance and such would probably rather use Musharna as their bulky psychic since it's a lot more reliable at doing its job and you want your SR setter to double as a normal/flying check a lot of the time. It just doesn't seem to find its place on teams well. Weather support is great and probably the best set for Uxie atm, being the best at enabling one of the tier's strongest playstyles. TrickScarf is pretty fun and good too, though it overlaps a lot with the support set, except it fits much better on offense. So yea 2 good sets, one of which only fits on a very specific archetype. I really can't see that being S.
Typhlosion fits S incredibly well. It really is not easy to counter since all it takes is 1 or 2 rather easy predictions to muscle past most of its checks, depending on its moveset. You are honestly handcuffed whenever Typhlosion hits the field because you're forced to go into your fire check or risk straight up losing a mon thanks to Typh's absurd power with Specs. Typhlosion, like other great wallbreakers, can really pick its counters and you can build your team around that. Pair that with an amazing speed tier and you have a behemoth of a pokemon that almost rivals the impact Charizard had on the meta in BW2. Though I really am interested to hear what is your way of "countering" Typhlosion.
Gatr is not S because people finally started using shit that beats it easily instead of just complaining. It's fine in A+ for the moment, we'll see what happens after drops.
Hariyama doesn't fit the definition in any way, it's a very solid mon but honestly it only has 1 relevant set with little deviations and it's pretty easy to wear down.
...cough...Poliwrath, the fabled Malamar and Gatr stopper.
The only new shit they're using is Ludicolo, but people have been well prepared for Feraligatr on every team for months.
Agree with all of Uxie, Hariyama, and Feraligatr staying in A+.
edit: as to why it's in A+ now as opposed to in XY, I've been begging for it to drop for ages, so don't look at me!
Agree with all of Uxie, Hariyama, and Feraligatr staying in A+.
edit: as to why it's in A+ now as opposed to in XY, I've been begging for it to drop for ages, so don't look at me!
Lilli's a fuckton more popular now. Cacturne, Eggy, Lanturn, Poli, Jynx, Garbodor have become a lot more used from what I've seen.
I kinda just wanna respond to this since I have the time XD
This is what I disagree with most.
Uxie not being able to run all of it's options at once doesn't make it worse. It makes it versatile. You rarely will need to have all of its movepool fit into one set. Defensively it can be made to fit the needs of your team and do it's job fairly well in most cases.
I agree with you about the calm mind set since I have been having the same problem while running xatu.
Also it's typing isn't really that bad... it has two uncommon weaknesses and it you hate knock off that much just run colbur. It has the stats to run SpD and Def which it doesn't need resist to do it effectively. Across the board it is really good unlike mons that are amazing at purely walling certain things.
You're right that trick is fun since most people just predict stealth rock and go into something to handle that IE: xatu, sandslash, cryogonal. Mega lix is a common switch in tho :{ I would say that set is far worse after people know about it unlike other scarfers.
Mantine. Ninetales + psychic type. hariyama + seismitoad.
Every good player prepares for fire spam and typh often gets blocked by things needed on teams to handle the other fires in the tier. (Magmortar, Mega-Rupt, Pyroar, and Ninetales)
When typhlosion gets in it can poke holes in ur structure. With the right predictions you can inflict a lot of damage. But even with the right predictions it doesn't just mean you win. You predict ninetales, I go into ninetales, you land a focus miss, I can easily switch out after. You will have to predict it multiple times. Typh doesn't get as many opportunities as people act like it does. In addition to that you really have to make sure no hazards get on the field or your screwed... S ranked mons really shouldn't need that much support.
OBVIOUSLY typhlosion is amazing as a wallbreaker. There are only so many times you can switch into this monster. It can wear down many cores that aren't devoted to stopping it and makes teambuilding a hell of a lot harder. It is well deserving of it's place greater than B+. But after that you really have to look at how easily you can put it on a team vs how much use it is. The thing needs a solid amount of support as it is weak to hazards, priority, things bulky enough to take a hit, things that outspeed it, and cores that have success vs it's nuking abilities. Then you have to realize the amount of things that stop it.
When making anti-Typh posts most people say it in the attitude that typh is countered by many things but thats not what they mean most of the time or they would be suggesting it for C+ cause it would have that low of viability. Typh is just handled fairly well but doesn't have problems doing damage to the vast majority of even prepared teams.
That said I would place it at either A or A+.
Yeah honestly I can agree with this. I used to be an advocate for gatr being A+.
But gatr should not be under typh at this point... or even rupt for that matter.
Agree 100% fren :}
This is what I disagree with most.
Uxie not being able to run all of it's options at once doesn't make it worse. It makes it versatile. You rarely will need to have all of its movepool fit into one set. Defensively it can be made to fit the needs of your team and do it's job fairly well in most cases.
I agree with you about the calm mind set since I have been having the same problem while running xatu.
Also it's typing isn't really that bad... it has two uncommon weaknesses and it you hate knock off that much just run colbur. It has the stats to run SpD and Def which it doesn't need resist to do it effectively. Across the board it is really good unlike mons that are amazing at purely walling certain things.
You're right that trick is fun since most people just predict stealth rock and go into something to handle that IE: xatu, sandslash, cryogonal. Mega lix is a common switch in tho :{ I would say that set is far worse after people know about it unlike other scarfers.
Mantine. Ninetales + psychic type. hariyama + seismitoad.
Every good player prepares for fire spam and typh often gets blocked by things needed on teams to handle the other fires in the tier. (Magmortar, Mega-Rupt, Pyroar, and Ninetales)
When typhlosion gets in it can poke holes in ur structure. With the right predictions you can inflict a lot of damage. But even with the right predictions it doesn't just mean you win. You predict ninetales, I go into ninetales, you land a focus miss, I can easily switch out after. You will have to predict it multiple times. Typh doesn't get as many opportunities as people act like it does. In addition to that you really have to make sure no hazards get on the field or your screwed... S ranked mons really shouldn't need that much support.
OBVIOUSLY typhlosion is amazing as a wallbreaker. There are only so many times you can switch into this monster. It can wear down many cores that aren't devoted to stopping it and makes teambuilding a hell of a lot harder. It is well deserving of it's place greater than B+. But after that you really have to look at how easily you can put it on a team vs how much use it is. The thing needs a solid amount of support as it is weak to hazards, priority, things bulky enough to take a hit, things that outspeed it, and cores that have success vs it's nuking abilities. Then you have to realize the amount of things that stop it.
When making anti-Typh posts most people say it in the attitude that typh is countered by many things but thats not what they mean most of the time or they would be suggesting it for C+ cause it would have that low of viability. Typh is just handled fairly well but doesn't have problems doing damage to the vast majority of even prepared teams.
That said I would place it at either A or A+.
Yeah honestly I can agree with this. I used to be an advocate for gatr being A+.
But gatr should not be under typh at this point... or even rupt for that matter.
Agree 100% fren :}
Just wanted to make a quick post about Mesprit and Uxie, as Mesprit was previously nominated for S and Uxie was just nominated for S. The council agreed Mesprit was not S rank and I pretty much see the same conclusion happening with Uxie. (please keep in mind I'm not calling these two Pokemon bad, I'm just listing some cons that hold them back from S rank in this meta)
Mesprit: While Mesprit is incredibly versatile and has an incredible support option in Healing Wish, there are a couple of things holding it back from S rank. Among those is that even though Mesprit has a ton of sets, no individual set is worthy of S rank. All of the sets have similar walls, most notably Mega Steelix which completely walls every set. Its speed is another thing that is holding it back from S, as its just mediocre against faster paced teams. I would consider putting this mon in S before Uxie though.
Uxie: While Uxie has a variety of support options, and a couple of offensive sets. But the thing is that none of these sets is good enough for S rank, its defensive sets most notably have no reliable recovery and is prone to getting worn down by repeated switch-ins to try to wall things. Its stealth rock support sets are fairly one dimensional as well, meaning as soon as you see what it does you can easily handle it. The purely offensive sets are largely outclassed by Mesprit, except for Sub CM / bulky CM which faces competition from other Psychic-type Calm Minders. Uxie's sub cm set is no where near as good as it was in XY, which was part of the main reason it rose to S rank.
Just a couple of quick thoughts and reasons about why Mesprit and Uxie should not be S.
Edit @ soulgazer: yah ik its not outclassed due to its bulk, I was referring to straight up offensive Mesprit vs. Uxie, edited to make that clearer
Mesprit: While Mesprit is incredibly versatile and has an incredible support option in Healing Wish, there are a couple of things holding it back from S rank. Among those is that even though Mesprit has a ton of sets, no individual set is worthy of S rank. All of the sets have similar walls, most notably Mega Steelix which completely walls every set. Its speed is another thing that is holding it back from S, as its just mediocre against faster paced teams. I would consider putting this mon in S before Uxie though.
Uxie: While Uxie has a variety of support options, and a couple of offensive sets. But the thing is that none of these sets is good enough for S rank, its defensive sets most notably have no reliable recovery and is prone to getting worn down by repeated switch-ins to try to wall things. Its stealth rock support sets are fairly one dimensional as well, meaning as soon as you see what it does you can easily handle it. The purely offensive sets are largely outclassed by Mesprit, except for Sub CM / bulky CM which faces competition from other Psychic-type Calm Minders. Uxie's sub cm set is no where near as good as it was in XY, which was part of the main reason it rose to S rank.
Just a couple of quick thoughts and reasons about why Mesprit and Uxie should not be S.
Edit @ soulgazer: yah ik its not outclassed due to its bulk, I was referring to straight up offensive Mesprit vs. Uxie, edited to make that clearer
cm 3 atk uxie is best uxie
sr set can run yawn if you are afraid of mlix, works well paired with spikes ;] idk why ppl say its bad when it can wall a LOT of stuff.. sure twave isn't as good now that its best counter (which happens to be the best pokemon in nu) is immune to it, but its honestly not enough to make it bad and uxie works well with the mons that can deal with mlix.
i would still only put Uxie in A+ though, just wanted to point out that cm/bulky are still good lol. Uxie is and imo always has been easy to put on a team and it will almost always do what you want it to do. being good on weather teams and even with scarf too just shows how versatile it is.
edit: @ mont: cm 3 atk uxie isnt rly outclassed by mesprit: while its not as powerful, its bulkier and outspeeds important mons
-------
Gatr should stay A+ too, but let me just point out that gatr CAN beat a majority of its checks, and that the stuff that beats SD will lose to DD (ex: lanturn/lilligant/garbo can easily check sd gatr, but with dd's coverage they lose to it). Gatr only has a select few counters that will always do well against it, ex: Tangela (and honestly, Gatr can still beat it if you play well around it).
---------
malamar should only be a- at best: its amazing vs slow teams, but can have an hard time against faster/more offensive teams unless you use a inferior set (not resttalk). most psychic-types are running signal beam now :(
sr set can run yawn if you are afraid of mlix, works well paired with spikes ;] idk why ppl say its bad when it can wall a LOT of stuff.. sure twave isn't as good now that its best counter (which happens to be the best pokemon in nu) is immune to it, but its honestly not enough to make it bad and uxie works well with the mons that can deal with mlix.
i would still only put Uxie in A+ though, just wanted to point out that cm/bulky are still good lol. Uxie is and imo always has been easy to put on a team and it will almost always do what you want it to do. being good on weather teams and even with scarf too just shows how versatile it is.
edit: @ mont: cm 3 atk uxie isnt rly outclassed by mesprit: while its not as powerful, its bulkier and outspeeds important mons
-------
Gatr should stay A+ too, but let me just point out that gatr CAN beat a majority of its checks, and that the stuff that beats SD will lose to DD (ex: lanturn/lilligant/garbo can easily check sd gatr, but with dd's coverage they lose to it). Gatr only has a select few counters that will always do well against it, ex: Tangela (and honestly, Gatr can still beat it if you play well around it).
---------
malamar should only be a- at best: its amazing vs slow teams, but can have an hard time against faster/more offensive teams unless you use a inferior set (not resttalk). most psychic-types are running signal beam now :(
I think A is the most appropriate rank for Malamar. Malamar does have a number of effective sets (I love sub on this thing), but its main objective is to spam Superpower and accumulate enough boosts to sweep. The first few Superpowers aren't always super powerful enough to break through mons such as Mega Steelix before getting phazed out with Roar, and later mons like Typhlosion can revenge with Specs Fire Blast. It is definitely a threat to take note of when team building, but it is not invincible. The Scarf set, the rest talk set and the Sub set are all effective in their own right, but Malamar can't run all three sets at once, even though that would make it an S rank pokemon.
I've also noticed more Malamar checks (psychics running U-turn and other bugspam), limiting Malamar's effectiveness.
Hmmm, with only a 21.5% chance of killing Mantine, safe to say that damage calcs should also be done for the Mantine:
0 SpA Mantine Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Typhlosion: 164-194 (55.2 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That essentially cripples Typhlosion's Eruption, and places it at the point where it can't come back back in that easily if forced out.
And here's a Pokemon that really does deal with Typhlosion quite well in NU: Samurott.
With Rocks: 252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 217-256 (65.3 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Without Rocks: 252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 217-256 (65.3 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Torrent Samurott Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Typhlosion: 289-343 (97.3 - 115.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (Now that's a highly likely chance)
Just giving some additional calcs and my humble opinion.
His calc is to show how stuff doesn't enjoy switching in to typh. Typh would probably just switch out not wanting to risk not knocking it out.
How is taking up to 77% dealing with typh well? Typh is obviously not gonna stay in on a samurott seeing as all of them run aqua jet.
A few ideas for conversation:
Lanturn B -> B+ / A-
Checks all 3 S ranked pokemon, + the best answer to everything that is around to counter mega-lix so is an excellent team mate and in general with heal bell support, fire spam check, stops volt switching freely and checks gatr also. Can be offensive or mixed defenses, in general a great pokemon right now with the amount of mantine, pelipper etc around.
Pignite unranked -> D
Not a complete useless piece of shit. Now it has thick fat, it makes it very nice for checking fire + ice special attackers. Tasty lure for things like mantine and pelipper since it gets coverage of wild charge and in general has some use in the NU meta-game.
Exeggutor B+ -> A-
No I don't have an undying love for the plant, it's just very fucking good >.> No switch ins like taking the combination of hp fire, leaf storm and psyshock. Breaks apart balance, checks mega-lix and destroys anything that wants to check it. Deserves to be up there with the big boys in A.
Musharna A- -> A
Again, i don't have a fetish, it's just the best fighting + psychic check (in one pokemon) in the tier with things like healing wish, reliable recovery, signal beam coverage (so you don't get 6-0'd by malamar), power, versatility, I wasn't even the first person to bring this up since scorp already suggested it . It's a really good pokemon and it's good even with mega-steelix around since it can lure and bp into an offensive pokemon.
Lanturn B -> B+ / A-
Checks all 3 S ranked pokemon, + the best answer to everything that is around to counter mega-lix so is an excellent team mate and in general with heal bell support, fire spam check, stops volt switching freely and checks gatr also. Can be offensive or mixed defenses, in general a great pokemon right now with the amount of mantine, pelipper etc around.
Pignite unranked -> D
Not a complete useless piece of shit. Now it has thick fat, it makes it very nice for checking fire + ice special attackers. Tasty lure for things like mantine and pelipper since it gets coverage of wild charge and in general has some use in the NU meta-game.
Exeggutor B+ -> A-
No I don't have an undying love for the plant, it's just very fucking good >.> No switch ins like taking the combination of hp fire, leaf storm and psyshock. Breaks apart balance, checks mega-lix and destroys anything that wants to check it. Deserves to be up there with the big boys in A.
Musharna A- -> A
Again, i don't have a fetish, it's just the best fighting + psychic check (in one pokemon) in the tier with things like healing wish, reliable recovery, signal beam coverage (so you don't get 6-0'd by malamar), power, versatility, I wasn't even the first person to bring this up since scorp already suggested it . It's a really good pokemon and it's good even with mega-steelix around since it can lure and bp into an offensive pokemon.
this is a terrible argument. dedicating something to beat typhlosion means that the pokemon's role is to solely beat typhlosion, which completely false in this case.
in most cases having something like mantine, bulky camerupt, hariyama, etc plus a priority attacker or something faster will prevent you from being swept by typhlosion, since its wall breaking ability is severely hampered by even chip damage. having a build like this is no way limiting one's team like you're implying.
I feel Eggy has actually taken more of a hit in this meta than a bump. The number of faster Pokemon that can revenge Eggy have become more relevant, and thus increased in number. Examples include Signal Beam Psychic-types (especially Xatu), Cacturne, Aurorus, Scyther, Ninetales, Sneasel, etc... It doesn't even check MLix that well Specs Leaf Storm does not even OHKO SpD MLix and Heavy Slam does loads (coming from the same SpD MLix). It still hits like a truck, but it gets threatened out just as easily as it can wreak havoc. Not advocating for a drop given its versatility, but not seeing a rise for this thing either.
I agree Mush is solid, but just let me bring up its 4MSS, which means it doesn't perform as universally well as it is made out to be. Psychic-type STAB and Moonlight are givens, so Mush only really has two moveslots to work with. Mush can be a wincon with Calm Mind, but can't do so without being total Dark bait (if Heal Bell is chosen) or status bait (if Signal Beam is chosen); oh and CM Mush wants Psyshock as well. The pivot set is cool, but loses to the Psychics it is supposed to check if they run Calm Mind.
Mush is certainly versatile, but since it doesn't perform all of its roles, where does that place it compared to the tier's other Psychic-types? Like, the ones that Musharna faces severe competition from, and are basically the primary reasons for Mush's fall from BW NU grace? The Psychics, aka Uxie, Mesprit, and Xatu, have comparable levels of bulk, power, and/or utility if not more (Stealth Rock, U-turn, Knock Off, Memento, faster Healing Wish, Magic Bounce), and all of them can perform their roles without being agonizingly slow (especially if you're going to talk about Healing Wish :/). Mush is not a bad mon in the least, but the top Psychics just seem way more consistent / useful in comparison. Sure, Mush is still the best Fighting + Psychic response in the tier, but stray just a bit too far and you'll start to wonder if the other Psychic-types are better options instead.
- Status