Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[Kurona]

Wont comment on most of that list as i havent played much with them but Noivern is a solid addition on Rain Teams. 2 110+ Base STABS and a 100% accuracy Hurricane with a 123base speed stat is nothing to Scoff at. Add to this it can OHKO Ferrothorn (or 2HKO if rain is up) with flamethrower or focus blast who is a major pain in the ass for rain teams. I feel he is niche enough to stay ranked but thats just personal opinion

I don't see why I'd use it over Tornadus-T unless I really wanted Draco Meteor -- in which case Kingdra exists and should be used on every rain team tbh.

 

[Miridy]

The only advantage Noivern had on rain teams over Torn was outspeeding Greninja and well...

 

[AM]

If you're gonna post something please don't make it a one liner. Put some thought into your messages thanks.

 

[Celticpride]

Just to be clear, xcsmj wasn't implying the things he listed don't have niches. It's a matter of those niches being enough to matter to have an impact. You can find a niche for just about anything if you try hard enough. Is Mold Breaker Taunt (Haxorus) really that valuable, even with Mega Sableye everywhere? Is whatever niche Salamence or Meloetta have in OU atm all that valuable? Is Ditto realistically even valuable? Aromatisse has a niche of being a cleric that can't be Taunted, and that's basically what the D rank and some of C- has become. We should probably just clean sweep C- and D tbh.

 

[ohgeedubs]

Just to be clear, xcsmj wasn't implying the things he listed don't have niches. It's a matter of those niches being enough to matter to have an impact. You can find a niche for just about anything if you try hard enough. Is Mold Breaker Taunt (Haxorus) really that valuable, even with Mega Sableye everywhere? Is whatever niche Salamence or Meloetta have in OU atm all that valuable? Is Ditto realistically even valuable? Aromatisse has a niche of being a cleric that can't be Taunted, and that's basically what the D rank and some of C- has become. We should probably just clean sweep C- and D tbh.

I mean, most pokemon have a niche because very few Pokemon have absolutely no unique qualities. But I think it's not so much that a Pokemon makes an impact on the metagame, it's that it a) it fulfills a unique niche better than any other mon and b) it's worth using. Hydreigon is useful for example, but probably no one's bending their teams to adjust to it (no real metagame impact).

Looking at C-, I can definitely vouch that using, say, Blissey or Dugtrio is definitely worth using on some teams (as in, they truly do benefit the team moreso than another mon could), and that those teams themselves are worth using (especially if you're predicting an opponent to bring a particular type of team).

D is a bit sketchy though.

 

[Miridy]

If you're gonna post something please don't make it a one liner. Put some thought into your messages thanks.

My apologies.
I think that Noivern should go to D Rank.
Looking at the C Rank description it says that pokemon in this category have few notable niches albeit with many flaws, the problem though is that with Greninja banned Noivern lost its most important niche: a fast dragon able to outspeed Greninja, Tornadus Therian for example has a much better ability and special attack for a rain pick alongside access to Superpower Taunt and Knock Off.
The only thing Noivern can do now is act as a faster but much weaker Latios without defog and a pursuit weakness, but with a stealth rocks weakness. If we compare it to other c- rank pokemons it doesn't stand up Blissey isn't completely stopped by Gengar or damaged as much by knock off like Chansey, Smeargle can set up all kind of hazard and even use stuff like Skill Swap to troll MegaSableye and I guess... baton pass.
Unranked would be a bit too much as it stands since Frisk/Infiltrator, switcheroo and ability to outspeed scarf Tyranitar is still useful, but not that much.

 

[trc]

Update:
Mega Lopunny: S ---> A+
Keldeo: A+ ---> S
Landorus-T: S ---> A+
Mega Diancie: A ---> A+
Excadrill: remains in A
Gliscor: A ---> A+
Mega Scizor: A+---> A
Celebi: A- ---> A
Kyurem-B: remains in B+
Terrakion: A- ---> B+
Mega Swampert: B ---> B+
Tentacruel: B ---> B+
Victini: remains in B
Omastar: remains in B
Togekiss: remains in B
Volcarona: B- ---> B
Mega Pidgeot: remains in C+
Espeon: C ---> C-
Cacturne: Unranked ---> D

Most people seem to be in agreement that in the post-Greninja meta Mega Lopunny is far less dominant, and that it is largely more balance focused, the playstyle that has the best matchup against Mega Lopunny. Offensive teams are still quite troubled by Adamant Mega Lopunny, due to not often packing many Pokemon that could switch in and deal with it, while stall teams can have a tough time against Mega Lopunny's more specialized sets, although Mega Lopunny's main Fake Out / High Jump Kick / Return / Ice Punch set isn't particularly troubling to well built stall teams, and that is the most common set in the meta. Slowbro, Mega Slowbro, Celebi, Hippowdon, Mew, and support sets of Mega Altaria are all commonly found on balanced teams, and deal with Mega Lopunny well, generally not making it too much of an issue. The playstyle with the hardest matchup still has common ways to get around Mega Lopunny, including Scarf Landorus-T, Talonflame, Azumarill, Thundurus, Klekfi, all Pokemon that can either outspeed it and kill it, cripple it, or tank a hit in a pinch and OHKO back. Overall though, Mega Lopunny is a very threatening Pokemon, but it definitely isn't as dominant as the other Pokemon in S, such as Mega Metagross and Mega Sableye.

Keldeo was the least controversial decision regarding the S ranks, as many people consider even the standard Specs set fantastic on its own. However, it's obvious that the Keldeo rise is mainly due to the incredible rise of the Substitute + Calm Mind set which is incredibly threatening to most balanced builds and is also very common in SPL so far. One of the unique aspects to Keldeo in this regard is that its checks and counters are either Pursuit bait for ScarfTar (Latios/Latias/Celebi/Starmie) or get burned and worn down by Keldeo's Scald early game.

Landorus-T was difficult in that while most people agree that Scarf Landorus-T is a great Pokemon, the meta has easily adopted to its presence, with the prevalence of Pokemon like Gliscor / Mega Slowbro on common balanced builds, and although Jukain talked about the dynamics related to U-turn against various Pokemon that aren't troubled by U-turn. I don't agree that that's really the main reason why Landorus-T should move down, but it's very well prepared for and isn't at the same level of dominance as again, Mega Sableye, Mega Metagross, and now Keldeo. Landorus-T does have a deceptive level of versatility among Earth Plate and boosting sets, but I think everyone can agree that it's not S rank.

Cacturne was put in D rank because it has an interesting role as a Sash mon with Spikes / Counter / Sucker Punch / Seed Bomb which punishes Landorus-T U-turns really well and can get off a Sucker or a Spikes depending on the situation. Water Absorb is also really helpful in certain situations, though overall this is quite a difficult Pokemon to judge without seeing it in practise yourself, though I'm sure Ox the Box will be happy to answer any questions about it ^_^

Like always ben gay logic bc cool ^_^

stuff

Mega Lopunny: A+ -guess with gren meta being over, lopunny isn't exactly as dominant as it was claimed to be before.
Keldeo: S -S for scald! :D
Landorus-T: A+ -meta has just adapted to land-t's presence so it isn't as amazing as it was at the start of oras.
Mega Diancie: A+ -combination of superior offensive stats, coverage, support options and ability pushes it over the edge of A and into A+.
Excadrill: A -its role hasn't really changed from being an effective sand abuser, and i don't think its defensive mold breaker set got much better, A suits it just fine i think o.o
Gliscor: A+ -really cool how it was able to adapt in response to certain shifts in the metagame, agree with A+.
Mega Scizor: A -definitely not a bad mon, just isn't really up to par with other A+ mons atm.
Celebi: A -can be tailor made to fit many support roles and it's versatility certainly gives it an inherit advantage to other bulky grass types.
Kyurem-B: B+ -ehh hasn't really gotten any better or worse from the looks of it, looks fine in B+ tbh.
Terrakion: B+ seems to me that this is moreso a liability to have than an actual threat ;_;
Mega Swampert- B+ -already explained why and AM pretty much summed it up.
Tentacruel: B+ -like mcm said tspikes is rly effective in this meta, added to the fact that its a reliable spinner with a unique typing and great support options in scald, acid spray, knock off, etc.
Victini: B -was originally B+ because it checked 3 very threatening megas late xy, being hera, cham and gard. with those mons being less pronounced, tini struggles to carve a niche for itself and having to put up with a whole slew of newer megas doesn't really help it any :c
Omastar: B -are u guys sure this should be B+? this particular rank looks like it will experience some major inflation and not rly sure if oma is up to par with the likes of megapert, kabutops, and kingdra :s. its the most powerful no doubt but given the offensive nature of rain, the other 3 are more appealing options as they are faster(not outsped by scarf land-t), versatile (can switch up moves and have potent secondary stabs) and each have their own unique quality that makes them exceptional in their own right.
Togekiss: B -not enough usage for me to rly get a good gauge of where this is at, i'll probs have a better idea in the next update but B is fine for now from the looks of it.
Volcarona: B+ looks more at home in B+ than B tho :<. it just invalidates balance and bulky offense builds alike. only real counters are like perish/roar altaria, chansey, rare dnite, and defensivegyara(ppl still run this?). talon and azu can threaten to check and rocks are a prob but is definitely manageable with a bit of team support. its pros without a doubt outweigh its cons and volc really does excels in this meta.
Mega Pidgeot: C+ -funny how much hype this got, until people started to realize that torn-t by extension also got drastically better :o
Espeon: C- inflation in C rank pushes this down so not suprising.
Cacturne: D -humor me n_n

Pokemon up for discussion:
Manaphy from A ---> A-
Tornadus-T from A- ---> A
Dragonite from B+ ---> A-
Kingdra from B+ ---> A-
Mew from B+ ---> A-
Mega Beedrill from B+ ---> B
Mega Sceptile from B+ ---> B
Volcarona from B ---> B+
Togekiss from B ---> B+
Victini from B ---> B+
Mega Ampharos from C+ ---> C
Slowking from C ---> B-
Mienshao from C ---> D

Update to ranking definitions:
Lately there have been concerns about the ranking definitions being too broad, and that people are specifically using the definitions to justify a Pokemon's raise. Often there becomes large debates about how a certain Pokemon does not fits x description as much as it fits y description, and people are using this as the only justification for their argument, failing to realise that by strictly and blindly following these, some Pokemon can appear next to others that simply are more or less effective than them. People need to understand that the rankings have shifted away from the literal definitions and that the rankings are more based on comparisons between Pokemon in higher and lower ranks, and the descriptions are just guidelines on what these Pokemon should be like in practise. However, we've agreed that the descriptions are sort of vague, so there will be a small update, rewritten by AM.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame.

I'm updating the OP now. Thanks for the continuous support, everyone n_n!

 

[Teeny Victory]

Not trying to be rude, but could I please have some reasoning as to why manaphy is nommed to move down from A to A-? If anything I think it got better with the rise of balance and stall in this meta, so I would say it should stay A (I don't have a lot of experience using it, so I could be missing something, but I always find it to be a threat I have to play very carefully around)

 

[TheTraininator]

Mega Pidgeot: C+ -funny how much hype this got, until people started to realize that torn-t by extension also got drastically better :o

I know this is not exactly intended to be a fully detailed response as to why Pidgeot did not move up, but still, I question this logic. Torn-T has already moved up and is sitting in A-, so I fail to see why Pidgeot can't move up as well.

Yes we know that Tornadus-T is overall a more versatile threat that does not take up a Mega Slot, but that doesn't mean that Mega Pidgeot isn't good and doesn't have advantages of its own. It too sits at that incredible 121 base Speed tier, and since Greninja has been banned, that basically means that the only relevant things that can outspeed without Scarf or Priority are faster Megas. Unlike Tornadus-T, however, Pidgeot also possesses a 100% accurate Hurricane, making it an incredibly reliable and deadly late game cleaner in a way Tonradus-T can't be. If the opponent is left with weakened, slower threats, Mega Pidgeot can guarantee to finish them all off, whereas Torn usually has to bank on the 30% chance that th opponent could knock it out and get back in the game every single time it attacks.

Consistency is not the only thing Pidge has over Torn, though; Mega Pidgeot also possesses the potential for a fabulous and deadly Work Up set that has started to become increasingly popular. By sacrificing coverage, Pidgeon can run a set of Work Up/Hurricane/Roost/Substitute or Refresh to be able to plow through the stall teams it usually has trouble with. Mono-flying is still an excellent solo STAB option to have, and with the ability to dodge status and recover health, it isn't long before Pidgeot gets the boosts it needs to deal heavy damage even to resists. Another plus of this set is that it can go toe-to-toe with Mega Sableye very well, who is currently the face of stall.

So while Tornadus-T is a versatile and deadly stallbreaking pivot, that doesn't mean that Mega Pidgeot isn't deadly as well, and refusing to move it up just because Torn got better as well is just silly and ignorant, imo. Is B- really that much of a stretch?

 

[Sochlo]

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame.

That sounds a lot like Pidgeot. Yes it has 100% accurate Hurricanes and that is no doubt useful, but that's all it has over Torn. Meanwhile, Torn is working with Taunt, Knock Off, Superpower, Focus Blast, Assault Vest, Choice Specs, etc. giving it a degree of utility Pidgeot can only dream of, all with an amazing ability of its own and not using that precious Mega slot.

I love using Pidgeot, it is by no means a bad Pokemon but sets like Sub Work Up is just testament to what little options it has outside of Hurricane, Heat Wave, and U-Turn. It's in a situation like Mega Medicham, it's not horrible but is quite frankly outclassed, C+ is fine tbh.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Not trying to be rude, but could I please have some reasoning as to why manaphy is nommed to move down from A to A-? If anything I think it got better with the rise of balance and stall in this meta, so I would say it should stay A (I don't have a lot of experience using it, so I could be missing something, but I always find it to be a threat I have to play very carefully around)

I agree with Teeny on this. With the rise of Mega Sableye-stall builds, Manaphy I have found to be a very threatening Pokemon against stall in general, and to play against as well. Moreover, it does quite well against Balance in general, and is probably one of the few Pokemon to beat Cro-megabro 1v1 with boosting via Tail Glow. It's movepool can be tailored easily depending on the team, and imo I think that A rank fits for Manaphy.

 

[craing ;_;]

I know this is not exactly intended to be a fully detailed response as to why Pidgeot did not move up, but still, I question this logic. Torn-T has already moved up and is sitting in A-, so I fail to see why Pidgeot can't move up as well.

Yes we know that Tornadus-T is overall a more versatile threat that does not take up a Mega Slot, but that doesn't mean that Mega Pidgeot isn't good and doesn't have advantages of its own. It too sits at that incredible 121 base Speed tier, and since Greninja has been banned, that basically means that the only relevant things that can outspeed without Scarf or Priority are faster Megas. Unlike Tornadus-T, however, Pidgeot also possesses a 100% accurate Hurricane, making it an incredibly reliable and deadly late game cleaner in a way Tonradus-T can't be. If the opponent is left with weakened, slower threats, Mega Pidgeot can guarantee to finish them all off, whereas Torn usually has to bank on the 30% chance that th opponent could knock it out and get back in the game every single time it attacks.

Consistency is not the only thing Pidge has over Torn, though; Mega Pidgeot also possesses the potential for a fabulous and deadly Work Up set that has started to become increasingly popular. By sacrificing coverage, Pidgeon can run a set of Work Up/Hurricane/Roost/Substitute or Refresh to be able to plow through the stall teams it usually has trouble with. Mono-flying is still an excellent solo STAB option to have, and with the ability to dodge status and recover health, it isn't long before Pidgeot gets the boosts it needs to deal heavy damage even to resists. Another plus of this set is that it can go toe-to-toe with Mega Sableye very well, who is currently the face of stall.

So while Tornadus-T is a versatile and deadly stallbreaking pivot, that doesn't mean that Mega Pidgeot isn't deadly as well, and refusing to move it up just because Torn got better as well is just silly and ignorant, imo. Is B- really that much of a stretch?

on the contrary, torn-t moved up to A- from B+ because m-pidgeot moved up from C to C+, not the other way around. as people began to realize what pidgeot was really capable of, similarly people did the same for torn-t and arguably got better results. if you have seen higher levels of tournament play such as spl, it is pretty apparent that torn-t can single-handedly pressure balanced and bulky offense the same way pidgeot can, if not better. i don't think pidgeot is bad by any means, but like you said taking a mega slot is a huge condition when you have so much better alternatives; added to the fact that it is sr weak for an offensive pivot. it requires much more support to build around, while torn-t is more self-reliant and acts as a glue for such teams. other than having a 100% accurate hurricane, the reasons you stated for pidgeot to move up is more or less the reason why torn-t might move to A. also i'm not doubting the validity of the work up set you mentioned, but as far as stallbreaking goes, torn-t can pretty much do the same with taunt, knock off, hurricane, superpwr, uturn, etc. without forgoing to ability to go toe-to-toe against more common playstyles. and i thought i already made it clear in the previous thread but guess not everyone saw.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...check-post-2359.3521602/page-105#post-5967518

edit: also if you guys are wondering on why sylveon wasn't bumped up is because we didn't account for it in the original update of mons that we moved to discuss. rest assured it will be in the next update, so lets try to keep the discussion to what hasn't been mentioned already. happy posting! n_n

 

[Steve Angello]

Mega Gardevoir for A+. It is really cool, to see how people abusing Mega Metagross and other new Megas, which were implemented in ORAS. People prepar more for the new Megas and most likely do not care about the old Megas anymore. Whenever I play with Gardevoir, I win my matches. It seems like nobody is prepared for it anymore, because most players forgot about a hidden thread. It is a huge win condition against common playstyles like balanced and stall. Furthermore it was one of the best Megas in XY! It is in my opinion a underestimated Pokemon like Mega Pinsir at the moment, because people spam Metagross and Lopunny. If you check out some SPL replays or statistics, you will see, that most players who used Gardevoir won the match, that is not an accident!
Lets discuss about it :]

edit: Furthermore it handles top threads to name some: Sableye, Latias, Latios, Clefable, Altaria, Tyranitar and Venusaur

 

[Albacore]

The logic being Manaphy potentially dropping as far a I can tell is the fact that the metagame has adapted to it, we're starting to see SpD Unaware Clefables, and more of Celebi as well. Even so, I don't think it should drop. As mentioned above, the metagame is getting bulkier which is good news for Manaphy since it can be pretty scary for these types of teams to handle. Latis are some of Manaphy's best checks and they are a bit less common and atm not too hard to take advantage of with stuff like Metagross and TTar. Speaking of which, Metagross's dominance over the metagame is great news for Manaphy since it's an excellent partner to it by virtue of smashing pretty much all of its counters bar like, Gourgeist and vice-versa. It's still a major threat and a very good addition to any team that wants something which easily blasts past Sableye without having to dedicate a mega slot for it.

Slowking has quite a lot of merit in being able to singlehandedly destroy MMetagross+Keldeo cores regardless of which coverage moves they run which is a pretty great niche. Unfortunately the amount of stuff it misses out on on the physical side makes it a poorer choice than Slowbro most of the time. I'm not really sure if it's on par with Rhyperior to be honest, B- is probably overselling it. C+ rank seems good though, it's pretty much on par with Bronzong and Gastrodon in terms of huge competition with better Pokemon+having a couple niches that can occasionally make it a better choice on certain teams

Mew is really unprepared for and has a lot of untapped potential imo. Obviously the old stallbreaker set isn't that effective anymore mainly because of Sableye, but that's far from the only thing Mew can do. It handles Megas Metagross, Lopunny and Slowbro for one. It's also a pretty good Defogger and SR setter, it can run Heal Bell, it can Nastypass, it can VoltTurn, and though it may not be as good at that as say, Celebi, the fact that you have no idea what it's going to do makes it very interesting. Some people have even been experimenting with more offensive sets, for example Defog/Roost/EQ/Ice Beam provides defog support while luring Heatran and Gliscor. It's endlessly malleable and capable of a lot of crazy stuff so I think a rise to A- may be warranted.

One thing I think people overlook when discussing Sceptile is the amount of defensive utility its typing provides. Although it may not be that strong, hard to wall, or easy to use (its STABs have their fair share of common resists which forces a lot of prediction on the Sceptile user's part especially if you end up having to Leaf Storm on a Grass resist), it does have some very appealing resists to Water, Ground and Electric, which coupled with its Speed enables it to check a bunch of stuff. I don't think it's fair to call it worse than MZam which, while more powerful and harder to wall, can't switch into anything at all.

 

[November Blue]

I think that Landorus-T should drop to A+, and Gliscor should rise to A+.

The problem with Landorus is that it has a few notable weaknesses, and is easy to take advantage of. It was great a few weeks ago, but now that everyone and their dog is using it on their teams, people are coming up with answers for it.

I think that the "mon loses viability because people prepare for it" argument is shaky, and doesn't apply to everything; certain mons have the right attributes and strengths to retain their effectiveness in a meta that's prepared for them (see: Mega Sableye, Heatran).

Unfortunately, Landorus-T isn't one of these mons. The Scarf set loses effectiveness vs. teams with lots of Ground immunities, can cost momentum very easily, and I find that it loses some of its effectiveness once you learn the opponent's playstyle. Choiced Earthquake is an awful move, and I find that people are often reluctant to use it, and instead assume I'm going to switch and use U-turn. I think more and more people are realizing that you don't have to respect Lando at all, and it's not the instant momentum machine that it's made out to be on paper.

Then the defensive set has its own slew of problems. I'd say that, right now, it's actually outclassed by Gliscor, who has higher natural bulk, a much better support movepool, Roost and Poison Heal for recovery (that can't be Knocked Off like Lando's Leftovers), and better set variety (physically defensive, specially defensive, Swords Dance, bulky attacker with U-turn or Acrobatics, Baton Passer, SubPass, ect.)

Landorus-T was moved to S rank because it had high reward for very little opportunity cost. IMO this is no longer true. A+.

Gliscor, however, definitely needs to move up. There are so many things that it does well, and its versatility is reminiscent of Mega Lopunny. It can put in work vs all playstyles, and its immunity to status and Ground type moves is always useful. Stall hates Taunt + Roost + Knock Off, offense doesn't like the SubPass set (still experimenting with this one), and both balance and stall don't like the specially defensive set.

Just for comparison:

-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 234-276 (73.3 - 86.5%)

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 264-312 (74.7 - 88.3%)

They have very similar bulk, but remember Gliscor's Poison Heal.

One problem Gliscor has is that it sometimes lacks offensive presence. STAB Earthquake off base 95 Attack isn't scaring anything except Heatran, and mono-attacker sets are even worse. Gliscor does have Swords Dance, Acrobatics (great for absorbing Knock Offs), Knock Off, and Ice / Fire Fang, so it's not a huge problem. One other thing I've found is that, while it does have great defensive stats, its list of resistances does leave it vulnerable to certain physical attackers. If you don't invest in its Defense stat, Gliscor isn't actually as bulky as you might think, so it can't be used as a catch-all physical stop like Lando can.

Hey, the OP was just updated. Posting this anyway.

 

[Tainic]

I've been waiting since ORAS release for someone to bring it up but whatever.

After having used Mega Ampharos extensively since XY's release, (In fact that's pmuch the only Mega I used in my good teams) I believe Ampharos deserves to raise in B-/B, as his defensive sets checks/counters a lot today's Meta threats, here are some calcs on all the things from S rank to B- he can stomach hits from :

S Tier
+1 252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 144-171 (37.5 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 180-214 (46.9 - 55.8%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO (If Megagross packs pursuit then Zen Headbutt is a 3HKO, Ice Punch is a threat to him though.)
+3 0 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 174-205 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO
+4 0 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 153-180 (39.9 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

A+ Tier
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 97-115 (25.3 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 121-144 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 88.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 88-105 (22.9 - 27.4%) -- 58.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 146-174 (38.1 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 169-199 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
+3 0 SpA Mega Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 374-440 (97.6 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO, something with Ice Beam and +3 Special Attack (uninvested yes maybe lets not talk about that) can't OHKO a Physically defensive Ampharos with Ice Beam, impressive, huh ? Needless to say CroBro cant do shit to Ampharos.
+4 0 SpA Mega Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 328-386 (85.6 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 131-154 (34.2 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 180-213 (46.9 - 55.6%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 153-182 (39.9 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 114-135 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- 14% chance to 3HKO

A Tier
252+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 159-187 (41.5 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos in Sun: 144-171 (37.5 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 94-112 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos in Sun: 106-126 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0- Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 128-152 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 146-174 (38.1 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 124-148 (32.3 - 38.6%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 57-67 (14.8 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 121-143 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 3HKO
+2 44+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 145-171 (37.8 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

A- Tier
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 320-378 (83.5 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Jirachi Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 96-114 (25 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 146-172 (38.1 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Starmie Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Mega Ampharos: 98-116 (25.5 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 108-127 (28.1 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO


B+ Tier
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 136-162 (35.5 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 130-154 (33.9 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 120-140 (31.3 - 36.5%) -- approx. 57.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 129-153 (33.6 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 256-303 (66.8 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 162-192 (42.2 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

B Tier
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 134-158 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 164-195 (42.8 - 50.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 186-220 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos in Rain: 137-162 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Scizor Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 275-324 (71.8 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 106-126 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 159-187 (41.5 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 126-148 (32.8 - 38.6%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
+3 252+ SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 280-330 (73.1 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

B- Tier
252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 160-188 (41.7 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+4 4 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 196-232 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 138-164 (36 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

As you probably noticed, the choice between Physically and Specially defensive most of the time comes down to what threats he handles better, but most of the time both sets can handle the same things.

But what can Ampharos do to theses threats in return ? Amphy has a good enough support movepool, he can Paralyze them with Discharge/TW, Pivot with his slow Volt Switch, attack with his powerful Dragon Pulse (any non-resistant offensive threat is 2HKOed by a non invested DP, that speaks for itself), he can even Poison M-Sableye thanks to Mold Breaker and then just stall it.

As for the "no recovery" problem, Ampharos can either rely on Wish Support to get healed, or sacrifice two moveslots for RestTalk, tbh Ampharos probably is one of the best RestTalkers in the tier given how good his type is and how he can absorb status aimed at him like its nothing. (Think Breloom, Venusaur, Sableye, most of the Prankster-TW users cant do shit to him.)

But wait, there's more ! Ampharos can forgo his purely defensive role and act as a Tanky attacker, able to OHKO/2HKO 75% of the meta (I'd do calcs if I had time, I guess you'll have to see for yourself, or to simply test it.), he can also as you may well know act as a powerful late game sweeper thanks to Agility allowing him to outspeed the 123 Base Speed Pokemons (iirc) and to swiftly end the game thanks to the excellent coverage offered by Thunderbolt/Dragon Pulse/Focus Miss, the Pokemons able to stop a +2 Ampharos aren't that numerous and surprisingly few teams are ready for it.

Now you're probably going to spout that hype slang that is "opportunity cost", Ampharos has a unique niche in checking a lot of the common threats in OU while acting as the slowest Volt Switch user, it needs a bit of support, but not as much as a lot of C Rank need (Come on, dont tell me Ampharos needs as much support as Camerupt, dont tell me he does not have more utility than, Bronzong.), let me remind you the definition of a C Rank Pokemon :

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

To me, the only competition Ampharos faces depend from his role : Defensive roles can be contested by Venusaur and Sableye, my point being that Venusaur and Sableye both take care of a different array of Pokemons (both cant deal with Char Y, for example.), so yeah the choice you'll do here probably depends of your teams needs, offensively speaking, that's something else, granted : The competition for the "Mega Special Attacker" is fierce, however, Ampharos still has his niche as a Bulky Attacker, more powerful than his Electric type breathen, Manectric, and bulkier than Altaria, one of the new Dragons.

With a really fucking solid typing to boast that takes care of an unique amount of threats, a good support movepool, powerful attacks, and diverse options, be it offensive or defensive one, I can't see clearly why Ampharos is deep down on the C Rank, oh right "Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective." Nope. So let's see : Defensive sets pretty much need Wish Support to function without RestTalk, that's the sad truth, (I repeat myself : RestTalk Ampharos actually is really good.) however, I don't call that "significant", Wishpassers are a good option in Balanced teams and Stall (Ampharos wouldnt fit in HO anyway.) so that's not exactly a problem, especially since Ampharos works well with some wishpassers, such as Sylveon/Clefable and Alomomomomomololola, in fact, Ampharos works with many of the defensive Pokemons in the tier, such as Skarm and Slowbro. The offensive sets need support too, but not too much as well, as the support required depends of the set used : All Out Attacker probably needs hazard support/removal and/or wish pass to make his job correctly and keep him alive, Agility set just requires his counters to be out of the game (As in : any late game cleaner.) and has a lot of opportunity to grab a quick +2 Speed to end the game, while it may not be A material (or at least not in the current meta, i guess.), it is far from being C Rank as it doesn't require a lot of support : Most of the teams have Hazard removal/support and/or wish support so yeah right.

Also I'd like to rest my case by mentionning how good Ampharos is (again), this time by mentionning the archetypes he fits in : He makes for a great Rain Support by offering a slow pivot that can stomach Water, Grass and Electric attacks with relative ease, some people might prefer Mega Pert/Cross in rain, but I'd say Mega Ampharos has a more defensive role than Pert/Cross does and allows for good pivots into, say, Kingdra or Shell Smash Omastar, if Ampharos wants to take an offensive role, he can literally MURDER stuff with Thunder, that even has a nifty 30% Para to help him kill stuff. Anyway I just wanted to mention it, also Trick Room support, Ampharos is a really good Mega in TR, but he faces competition from Camerupt, but since both have their pros and their cons, I wont develop further that point.

Anyway I'm done, I just wanted to point the fact that Ampharos is really underestimated in the current Meta and that it deserves a raise so uh yeah, Ampharos for B-/B.

 

[Ox the Fox]

Pokemon up for discussion: (just going to write brief descriptions)
Manaphy from A ---> A-, Keep it in A. It doesn't have any true hard counters as it can run a coverage move to get past them. You want to beat it with goth? Well I'll use u-turn. You want to beat it with rotom-w? energy ball. It also has a really underrated set in it's cm rest rain dance scald, which can easily sweep any team barring bulky grass like ferrothorn or amoongus.
Tornadus-T from A- ---> A, Move it to A. Tornadus is extremely good right now. It has very few counters and out speeds the majority of the tier. It can also come in on a decent amount if you equip it with a assault vest, and with a life orb it tears through the tier. Regenerator also vastly helps with keeping it alive as even with rocks it doesn't take as much when it comes in.
Dragonite from B+ ---> A-, Keep it in B+. I know I was the one who brought this up, but I really feel like he should stay in B+ for now. He has a nice defensive set and the choice band set which hits really hard, however both are really underwhelming in practice. I feel his best set is his lum dragon dance set but that is easily crippled by stealth rocks. You can either choose to be walled by ferro, scizor, skarm or to be walled by heatran, azumarill.
Kingdra from B+ ---> A-, Move it to A-. Kingdra just absolutely destroys offense under the rain. It has very few counters as most of them can be gotten by a mixed set.
Mega Beedrill from B+ ---> B, Move it to B. One of the moves it's almost forced to run, protect, is just setup bait for something like scizor. It's also extremely weak to priority and can't come in on any move. It's easily worn down by stealth rocks as well and you're going to be walled by heatran or gengar, both of which are fairly relevant threats in OU right now.
Mega Sceptile from B+ ---> B, Move it to B. Mega sceptile is another pokemon I'm not really a fan of. It's stopped by a ton of things, clefable, chansey, mega altaria, and the prevalence of scarf pokemon which out speed it really hurts it.
Volcarona from B ---> B+, Move it to B+. Volcorona sweeps through so many teams right now. Few things can stop it once it gets to +1, and it's not too hard to setup with items such as passho berry. The main thing stopping it is it's weakness to talonflame and rocks but you can easily pair it with a mega diancie to deal with both of those.
Victini from B ---> B+, Move it to B+. Victini is another extremely good and underprepped for mons. It's choice banded set easily rips through common balance builds and can run a defensive set for stuff like mega gardevoir. It also still has a sub pup set to break through it's normal counters.
Slowking from C ---> B-, Move it to B-, Slowking is another really good mon. It can run an assault vest set to beat shit like landorus or mega gardevoir, or a more gimmicky set of dragon tail and future sight which works extremely well with hazard stack. It's also one of the best mega metagross counters.

 

[AM]

I'll make a post later in regards to the general slate overall but would like to bring up one nom. Hopefully ben gay can keep giving us good explanations everytime trc updates so he doesn't get a mob after him when they disagree :p

Slowking to B-: I originally brought this up so this is why you're seeing it on this slate. I think the argument of "missing out on the physical side" is not the point here and being a poorer choice is subjective and is based on team needs primarily. It's a given that Slowbro is much more physically inclined in regards to its defense the point being is that certain meta-game trends are in favor of Slowking. Slowking is a much more consistent check to the M-Gross + Keldeo cores you see on a majority of offensive minded teams because it's not getting completely donked by Grass Knot and has the luxury of not potentially getting 2HKO'd by Keldeo through Specs due to sets that run mixed bulk, which I feel are the best ones. Also the majority of Balance breakers such as Char-Y, Gengar, Latios, Landorus, think specially offensive wall-breakers are all handled a bit better by Slowking because its more specially defensive traits allows it to act on them through the use of an attack or utility move such as Thunder Wave. These are very dangerous threats and these are ones seen a lot in higher levels of play and have shown to be extremely potent in the right hands. Slowking is simply not mediocre in practice at the level of C or even C+. Going off of its utility set alone it has the ability to provide very important aspects on a variety of teams to stop them from being completely man handled. People have been very aware that a majority of teams are focused on checking a physically offensive meta due to the relevancy of such mons such as Lando-T and M-Metagross. As such wall-breakers such as M-Gardevoir and Charizard-Y can take advantage of this and either through the use of its AV set or a simple utility set akin to Slowbro, Slowking can provide some relief against these mentioned wall-breakers along with much of the utility options that is already used on Slowbro. The competition is primarily found on Slowbro which isn't a huge concern considering Slowbro sits at a higher rank right now. This is why I brought up the nom in the first place and this is why I believe it should sit at B-.

Also Sylveon discussion just happened too early. We were practically done voting by the time it started so expect it next slate.

 

[Kurona]

Am edit: removed the "why" aspect.

I also don't see the logic behind Kyurem-B. IIRC people wanted it in A- because it was an incredible wallbreaker and the reason it dropped to B+ from A- originally was either poor or not well explained.

 

[Thisbemyalt]

Just a quick note I can really get behind moving volcarona to B+ frankly ORAS has brought so many good partners to volcarona such as mega diance and the increased popularity of dugtrio. Also volc has great matchups versus a majority of high tier threats especially since with a good volt torn core or just good predictions you can consistently give volcarona a chance to sweep against any type of team and if you are an offensive set with three atk quiver (as opposed to a bulky quiver set with dual stab and roost) very little in this tier will be able to stop you when you get to plus one.

So what exactly does stop volcarona sweeps? Well there are a few mons who can come in with little to no fear and constantly shut down volcarona, the two most common being tran and talon however I have noticed recently some people have gone with hp ground as a possible third attack however giga drain has much more utility and isn't only used for one specific mon. Well tran of course is easy to handle no recovery and can be trapped by dugtrio which usually wouldn't be much of a sound argument because that is a prediction game however very few teams can stop volc at plus one and will most likely not sack a mon to give a counter a safe switch in. Talon ofc is easily dealt with by very common mons such as tran and rotom-w plus with a four times weakness to rocks you can really keep pressure on your opponent if this is all they have to stop volcarona. Another thing that can handle volc are scarfers like lando-t however lando is not wanting to risk being hit by a fiery dance as it will do a decent chunk limiting its switch ins.

252+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 178-210 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So finally what does it beat thats high tier? Well if you come in at the right time to get free setup, something that volc is relatively good at, then very few high tier mons stand a chance. I won't provide calcs because frankly when a mon hits 405 sp atk and is usually at plus one calcs are kinda unnecessary. Well mega gross, sable, and keldeo all of the S ranks lose to volc if volc can get to plus one however, keldeo is the only one who wins a 1v1 even if unboosted. Overall I would say volc deserves at least B+ since the only reason it dropped was because the meta just shit on it but now volc is rarely thought of when team building which makes it run train on countless teams especially since this meta is more in volcs favor than it has been in a very long time.

Since I'm not that great at these posts I am sure I missed a lot so there probably is more than what I have stated and I am interested in seeing both sides of this argument.

 

[AM]

Can I ask what on earth is pushing Dragonite for A-? I don't think it's gotten any better lately.
I also don't see the logic behind Kyurem-B. IIRC people wanted it in A- because it was an incredible wallbreaker and the reason it dropped to B+ from A- originally was either poor or not well explained.

Most of these suggestions were either discussed internally or suggested by others we've asked. Manaphy, Dragonite, and Mew are some examples where we're gauging the general consensus of where they should be ranked. There's a difference between people "wanting" something ranked and it being ranked at that level so it's not always just going to be what people want. If that was the case we'd have like 15 things in S rank right now because people want them to be S yet their practical abilities don't actually mandate that which was a big reason why I went ahead and rewrote some of the definitions. The reason why Kyurem-B dropped originally was actually explained in depth by alexwolf in the previous thread, although I don't have time to find it now. Long story short, Greninja meta and as such these trends made Kyurem-B less viable. We're out of the Greninja meta right now and there isn't exactly a very huge push for it to be Kyurem-B in regards to many of whom we talked to mostly and what we've seen from games. Some thought it was at the level of A- others thought it had enough crippling flaws to keep it at B+. These are always up for debate in the long run anyways it's not like the positions are permanent so as of now Kyurem-B sits at B+ and we'll see where it ends up in the long run. The only thing that I feel has the potential to push it is the Life Orb set however in practice I've felt it's B+ material.

 

[Thisbemyalt]

Wasn't there a fair amount of talk about mega blastoise moving up, too? About how it checked a bunch of new megas (sharpedo, lop, meta, sableye, etc.) and was a pretty good form of hazard control that didn't remove stuff on the opponent's side of the field? No? Ok then.

AM already stated that sylveon's talk was after voting had occurred my assumption would be that Mega Stoise's talk was also a little late I mean I mentioned Croak but my assumption was either they were already voting or they overlooked it but I doubt that.

 

[BlueLobster]

Manaphy from A ---> A-: Completely disagreeing. It has some fabulous sets, no real counters due to it's wide movepool, good bulk and power. Teams lacking extremely specially bulky mons can't stop it after a TG if it's running TG + 3 attacks unless they can beat it with fast powerful stuff. RD Rest TG sweeps anything without Chansey, something that can KO it fast, or a resist. It's fine where it is.
Tornadus-T from A- ---> A I don't support or object, but it has good power + utility. Regen means it gets around it's rock weakness. The miss chance of Hurricane stops me from saying definite A, but I think it does fit in a better than A-.
Dragonite from B+ ---> A- No way. With M.Alt's arrival, it's worse if anything. Worn down easy, not overly good without multiscale, this thing's staying in B+. Not arguing it's bad, it's solid and has a nice CB and DD set, but A-? Not really.
Kingdra from B+ ---> A- I can see why people want it in A-, but it's poor without rain and, while extremely threatening, if there is no rain up it can't pull it's weight, especially if there is a dragon or fairy on the opposing team, which there often is.
Mega Beedrill from B+ ---> B Well, I nommed this earlier in the thread, so not much to say. Forced protect means it's walled by Heatran or Gengar, who are both common af. It's worn down easy, killed by most priority (bar mach punch) and hard to wishpass to unless your wishpasser is a slow pivot, so it's yolo. It can't touch alot of stallmons as well, and has poor STAB to abuse it's ability.
Mega Sceptile from B+ ---> B Agreeing. Doesn't have too much going for it, it can get past steels 70% of the time, but then again some steels can tank it's focus miss IIRC. It's best STAB lowers it's offensive capabilities, has a poor movepool, and other megas are better most of the time. It may counter Rotom-W when mega'd, but then again that's not big enough to use your mega on.
Volcarona from B ---> B+ No real opinion, but go ahead. I've been troubled by it late game before, and it does seem better than B in action TBH.
Victini from B ---> B+ Agreed. It has amazing nuke power, bolt strike to get around bulky waters, U-Turn to keep momentum and practically destroys stall when Heatran/Rotom is gone.
Slowking: No real opinion on this one, never used or seen it.

 

[Canned Bread]

I've been waiting since ORAS release for someone to bring it up but whatever.

After having used Mega Ampharos extensively since XY's release, (In fact that's pmuch the only Mega I used in my good teams) I believe Ampharos deserves to raise in B-/B, as his defensive sets checks/counters a lot today's Meta threats, here are some calcs on all the things from S rank to B- he can stomach hits from :



As you probably noticed, the choice between Physically and Specially defensive most of the time comes down to what threats he handles better, but most of the time both sets can handle the same things.

But what can Ampharos do to theses threats in return ? Amphy has a good enough support movepool, he can Paralyze them with Discharge/TW, Pivot with his slow Volt Switch, attack with his powerful Dragon Pulse (any non-resistant offensive threat is 2HKOed by a non invested DP, that speaks for itself), he can even Poison M-Sableye thanks to Mold Breaker and then just stall it.

As for the "no recovery" problem, Ampharos can either rely on Wish Support to get healed, or sacrifice two moveslots for RestTalk, tbh Ampharos probably is one of the best RestTalkers in the tier given how good his type is and how he can absorb status aimed at him like its nothing. (Think Breloom, Venusaur, Sableye, most of the Prankster-TW users cant do shit to him.)

But wait, there's more ! Ampharos can forgo his purely defensive role and act as a Tanky attacker, able to OHKO/2HKO 75% of the meta (I'd do calcs if I had time, I guess you'll have to see for yourself, or to simply test it.), he can also as you may well know act as a powerful late game sweeper thanks to Agility allowing him to outspeed the 123 Base Speed Pokemons (iirc) and to swiftly end the game thanks to the excellent coverage offered by Thunderbolt/Dragon Pulse/Focus Miss, the Pokemons able to stop a +2 Ampharos aren't that numerous and surprisingly few teams are ready for it.

Now you're probably going to spout that hype slang that is "opportunity cost", Ampharos has a unique niche in checking a lot of the common threats in OU while acting as the slowest Volt Switch user, it needs a bit of support, but not as much as a lot of C Rank need (Come on, dont tell me Ampharos needs as much support as Camerupt, dont tell me he does not have more utility than, Bronzong.), let me remind you the definition of a C Rank Pokemon :

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

To me, the only competition Ampharos faces depend from his role : Defensive roles can be contested by Venusaur and Sableye, my point being that Venusaur and Sableye both take care of a different array of Pokemons (both cant deal with Char Y, for example.), so yeah the choice you'll do here probably depends of your teams needs, offensively speaking, that's something else, granted : The competition for the "Mega Special Attacker" is fierce, however, Ampharos still has his niche as a Bulky Attacker, more powerful than his Electric type breathen, Manectric, and bulkier than Altaria, one of the new Dragons.

With a really fucking solid typing to boast that takes care of an unique amount of threats, a good support movepool, powerful attacks, and diverse options, be it offensive or defensive one, I can't see clearly why Ampharos is deep down on the C Rank, oh right "Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective." Nope. So let's see : Defensive sets pretty much need Wish Support to function without RestTalk, that's the sad truth, (I repeat myself : RestTalk Ampharos actually is really good.) however, I don't call that "significant", Wishpassers are a good option in Balanced teams and Stall (Ampharos wouldnt fit in HO anyway.) so that's not exactly a problem, especially since Ampharos works well with some wishpassers, such as Sylveon/Clefable and Alomomomomomololola, in fact, Ampharos works with many of the defensive Pokemons in the tier, such as Skarm and Slowbro. The offensive sets need support too, but not too much as well, as the support required depends of the set used : All Out Attacker probably needs hazard support/removal and/or wish pass to make his job correctly and keep him alive, Agility set just requires his counters to be out of the game (As in : any late game cleaner.) and has a lot of opportunity to grab a quick +2 Speed to end the game, while it may not be A material (or at least not in the current meta, i guess.), it is far from being C Rank as it doesn't require a lot of support : Most of the teams have Hazard removal/support and/or wish support so yeah right.

Also I'd like to rest my case by mentionning how good Ampharos is (again), this time by mentionning the archetypes he fits in : He makes for a great Rain Support by offering a slow pivot that can stomach Water, Grass and Electric attacks with relative ease, some people might prefer Mega Pert/Cross in rain, but I'd say Mega Ampharos has a more defensive role than Pert/Cross does and allows for good pivots into, say, Kingdra or Shell Smash Omastar, if Ampharos wants to take an offensive role, he can literally MURDER stuff with Thunder, that even has a nifty 30% Para to help him kill stuff. Anyway I just wanted to mention it, also Trick Room support, Ampharos is a really good Mega in TR, but he faces competition from Camerupt, but since both have their pros and their cons, I wont develop further that point.

Anyway I'm done, I just wanted to point the fact that Ampharos is really underestimated in the current Meta and that it deserves a raise so uh yeah, Ampharos for B-/B.

I’ll be happy to supply the calcs for an offensive Ampharos that Tainic didn’t have time to do. Not going to do every Pokemon in OU(contrary to popular belief, I do have a life), just some of the more popular ones.

For reference, the relevant EVs I’ll be using in all of these calcs is 252 SpAtk, with a Modest Nature.
Obviously you’ll need to get an Agility boost before even thinking about going against some of these.


Reference Calc:
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 193-228 (56.5 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 139-165 (34.4 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Hide

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 422-498 (130.6 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 158-186 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 171-202 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 464-548 (127.8 - 150.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 920-1084 (338.2 - 398.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 259-306 (95.2 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO


252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 420-494 (126.1 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Clef 2HKOs)


252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 262-310 (74.4 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 290-344 (90.9 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO


252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 336-396 (112.3 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 244-288 (94.2 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO


252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 250-296 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 524-618 (176.4 - 208%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 464-548 (117.7 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 150-177 (54.1 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (you have to catch it on the switch with one Bolt and already have an Agility boost though)


252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Rotom-W: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 193-228 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 460-544 (134.8 - 159.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus: 231-273 (77.2 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 420-494 (117.3 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That’s all I can be bothered to do right now. Hopefully it’s sufficient to support the point Tainic was making. If not, well, sorry.

 

[Kurona]

Going along with xcsmj 's little C/D ranks to Unranked revolution...

Mega Aggron C --> Unranked
Maybe this seems drastic to some, but... I don't know what this does. I don't think anyone knows what this does. I don't think there is a thing it actually does because it can only really fit into stall teams, and the options you have for those these days are so much better. Sableye, Altaria, Venusaur, I know all of these do different tasks to Aggron's but I don't think Aggron's is really appreciated these days. Scraping the bottom of the barrel, the jobs I can find it being good at are:-
-Physical Defensive Steel-type wall
-Birdspam check
-Stealth Rock setter
So in this case... why aren't you using Skarmory
Seriously though, these three tasks are accomplished by Skarmory pretty damn easily. So Aggron's niche in this case would be... Skarmory with sort of offensive presence that doesn't die to volt switch...? I mean... that's nice and all, but why would you use your Mega Slot for it?
Admittedly I'm probably biased here and I've never used it so this is really subject to theorymon, but I'm not sure why Aggron deserves to be ranked. If anyone who's used it can tell me what it does well, cool. I see a Resttalk set on the analysis; is that good? I doubt it but give me something here. All in all I don't see why anyone would consider Mega Aggron for a slot on their team without being experienced, and that's why I think it should be unranked. At the very least it in no way deserves to be considered on the level of Infernape.