ORAS - post-Greninja - Metagame Discussion

[hobreezy]

Off-topic from the suspect discussion but,
One clear thing that has stuck out to after the greninja ban is the solidification speed tiers. When greninja was still in ou, so many players were using subpar scarf sets or relying on ridiculously fast new megas like Sceptile or Lopunny. This created unclear tiers for players during offensive team building. However, now that greninja is gone and pokemon like scarf keldeo, scarf latios, or mega sceptile are becoming increasingly rare, the golden speed tier -from my teambuilding perspective- is 110. Any offensive team I make has at least one, usually two mons that sit right above that speed tier. And no, this does not mean slapping a scarf on an already fast pokemon, but it means finding a well fitting mon who is more cohesive with the rest of the team.

Prior to the ban, almost any mon that sat inbetween the 110 and 123 speed tier was so much harder to use. Tornadus-T, a great pivot and pokemon that can provide tremendous pressure was shut down by Greninja simply because it wasn't fast enough. Houndoom was put into a similar situation in that Greninja could absolutely annihilate it.

Now, Pokemon in this speed range like Starmie or Raikou have even more important roles as they are revenge killers that can provide utility as well (a spinner in respect to the former, and a pivot in respect to the latter). Using hyper fast mons is now somewhat overkill when pokemon that can provide more synergy sit right above the golden speed tier. From what I have observed, gone are so many of the hyper fast revenge killers that existed in the days of Greninja, and arrived are the days of settled, more predictable speed tiers.

 

[BasedCannon]

I know that you didn't outright say you think Metagross is broken, but calling it a necessary evil kind of implies that you do think it is broken. If you do, then your argument is a case of "broken checking broken" which is invalid because we don't keep broken pokemon around to help deal with other [potentially] broken pokemon, we ban all the broken pokemon instead.

Why does this need to be said when there isn't even a suspect thread? ;;

Actually I didn't say broken for a reason. I don't feel that Mega Metagross is actually broken. I feel that Mega Metagross is in the same category of Mega Charizard X in terms of viability. Both are insanely powerful, however both have solid counters and are very beatable. When I said that it's a necessary evil, since it was misinterpreted, I meant it in the sense that Mega Metagross is actually making it so certain fairies don't dominate the metagame. While it's true their are a few other checks and counters out there to fairies (CB Scizor, Heatran, etc) they don't address Mega Altaria quite as well as Mega Metagross and by no means do I consider Mega Altaria broken.

Yes. Mega Metagross is a fantastic wall-breaker.
Yes. Mega Metagross can punish you for misplaying a turn.
Yes. Mega Metagross has fantastic typing and fantastic base stats.

However there are other Pokemon in the tier that do the same job. I hope that clears this up for you because I was pretty straight-forward when I wrote my original post. Like I said, a suspect test would be fine on Mega Metagross, but I don't see it as ban-worthy.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

I personally feel the tier is fairly balanced right now. Plenty of mons have viability, there are lots of options when building and teams aren't too repetitive. I would say there are some mons that are in a league of their own in terms of overall consistency, those mons being Mega Metagross and Mega Sableye, for HO+BO and stall respectively. Mega Metagross is a mega that can put in work at any point in the match due to flawless stats all round. It takes a lot of successful prediction to handle without losing something and it can afford to take a hit if the user misplays. Mega Sableye has solidified everything frustrating about stall and I can see why people who hated the playstyle already have concerns.

That being said, I do not think either are broken. I think we have a balanced metagame. Whilst both are consistent and can be considered the Titans of OU they aren't unstoppable and I feel no matter how many suspects and bans take place, something will always emerge as centralising as these two have become, like Keldeo for example, who continues to be absurd and can successfully use many sets in the current metagame.

I would be interested in an Aegislash retest down the line with the metagame stabilising however I am not as confident about this as I initially was due to the fact it may lead to a complete overhaul in mon viability.

Finally, it's nice to see a metagame where all playstyles are viable. Whilst matchup will always be an issue in Pokemon, the tier as it stands allows for HO, BO, Balanced, semi-stall, and even (although definitely less so) full stall to be used to success.

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

Off-topic from the suspect discussion but,
One clear thing that has stuck out to after the greninja ban is the solidification speed tiers. When greninja was still in ou, so many players were using subpar scarf sets or relying on ridiculously fast new megas like Sceptile or Lopunny. This created unclear tiers for players during offensive team building. However, now that greninja is gone and pokemon like scarf keldeo, scarf latios, or mega sceptile are becoming increasingly rare, the golden speed tier -from my teambuilding perspective- is 110. Any offensive team I make has at least one, usually two mons that sit right above that speed tier. And no, this does not mean slapping a scarf on an already fast pokemon, but it means finding a well fitting mon who is more cohesive with the rest of the team.

Prior to the ban, almost any mon that sat inbetween the 110 and 123 speed tier was so much harder to use. Tornadus-T, a great pivot and pokemon that can provide tremendous pressure was shut down by Greninja simply because it wasn't fast enough. Houndoom was put into a similar situation in that Greninja could absolutely annihilate it.

Now, Pokemon in this speed range like Starmie or Raikou have even more important roles as they are revenge killers that can provide utility as well (a spinner in respect to the former, and a pivot in respect to the latter). Using hyper fast mons is now somewhat overkill when pokemon that can provide more synergy sit right above the golden speed tier. From what I have observed, gone are so many of the hyper fast revenge killers that existed in the days of Greninja, and arrived are the days of settled, more predictable speed tiers.

I pretty much agree with this. Greninja was the definition of speed. That's why Mega Sceptile was used at all - because it could check Greninja with a Giga Drain. Base 110 speed is now much better, so in a way Mega Diancie and Mega Metagross are better now. Like Mr. Goodra just said, I think the tier's balanced right now. And somebody said a while back that Mega Metagross is a "necessary evil", and that's a really good point. Consider Mega Metagross gets banned. That's one less check to Mega Altaria and Mega Diancie, who would honestly probably eventually be suspected. The experience I have with MDiance, the main mega I play, is nowhere near close to the experience I have with Meta, but I'm not really sure Metagross is broken. I'm not defending it, because I could probably get behing a suspect for it, but I just don't see it as a threat that's definitely 100% broken.

As far as an Aegislash retest goes, that may not be the best idea. I think that we've put Aegislash behind us for now, because I think it would excel in this metagame. In addition to the Pokemon it was formerly able to check, including Mega Gardevoir which would go down in usage once more, it would be able to check Mega Altaria (without earthquake), Mega Slowbro, Mega Latias...but on the other hand, it will have gained a few new checks - first and foremost, Mega Gyarados now has Crunch, so I suppose that can be considered a check to non-Sacred Sword variants, Mega Lopunny (aegis can probably screw it up with king's shield though), and maybe Mega Sableye. I don't see a retest happening.

 

[Machi]

She has Megagross's speed and power, combined with Mega Sableye's bulk and ability.

This is definitely an overstatement as Diancie has no recovery unlike MSable, and considerably more weaknesses (a crippling x4 one to boot), moreover is not invested in defensively so overall she will end up being far less bulky. MDiancie tends to run mixed at the sacrifice of her SpD, which again reduces her prowess to take hits even resisted ones. She offers very little defensive synergy, which cannot be said of MSable and even MMeta to an extent (who can punish bird and fairy spam).

Whereas for power I would argue otherwise given the Tough Claws boost and potential +1 from Meteor Mash easily outdoing MDiancie's output with regard to Metagross, what she does have over him is superior coverage. However, again her bulk as compared to Metagross is definitely more lacking as steel > rock defensive wise, he has more key resists and is neutral to more priority.

More importantly I would generally avoid having Diancie bounce back hazards simply because she has a bad match up against most of them, only safe one IMO is Skarmory, the rest carry a move that can easily dispatch her, flash cannon, gyro ball, or earthquake.

 

[Albacore]

I agree with the notion that Shadow Tag is inherently uncompetetive and should be looked at, however I would not actually suspect Shadow Tag as a whole. The reason for this is that the only STag user which has a negative effect on the metagame is Gothitelle. The only other Shadow Tag user, Wobuffet, is in no way unhealthy and is actually quite an interesting Pokemon, and has some neat applications like being able to give free setup opportunities and dissuading the usage of choiced Pokemon, neither of which are objectionable and both of which can be done by other Pokemon anyway. Mainly, the reason no one is complaining about Wobuffet is that no team will fall apart by losing its Choice user. However, Gothitelle's ability to completely remove almost any defensive Pokemon from play can make it very easy and mindless to beat stall and balanced teams, and unless the opponent has a Pursuit trapper you don't even need to predict, since whatever you want to trap can never recover if you just keep sending Goth on it, so it ends up inevitably losing anyway. Ultimately what makes Gothitelle a problem isn't Shadow Tag, it's the combination of Shadow Tag and Trick which lets it disable whatever defensive Pokemon it wants. Since the Gothitelle family are the only Pokemon with this combination, and since we lose less from banning Gothitelle than we do from banning Shadow Tag as a whole (unless you feel like using Scarf Competetive Gothitelle), suspecting the actual problem Pokemon makes more sense to me.

tldr; suspect the Gothitelle family; don't suspect Shadow Tag

 

[Kurona]

I agree with the notion that Shadow Tag is inherently uncompetetive and should be looked at, however I would not actually suspect Shadow Tag as a whole. The reason for this is that the only STag user which has a negative effect on the metagame is Gothitelle. The only other Shadow Tag user, Wobuffet, is in no way unhealthy and is actually quite an interesting Pokemon, and has some neat applications like being able to give free setup opportunities and dissuading the usage of choiced Pokemon, neither of which are objectionable and both of which can be done by other Pokemon anyway. Mainly, the reason no one is complaining about Wobuffet is that no team will fall apart by losing its Choice user. However, Gothitelle's ability to completely remove almost any defensive Pokemon from play can make it very easy and mindless to beat stall and balanced teams, and unless the opponent has a Pursuit trapper you don't even need to predict, since whatever you want to trap can never recover if you just keep sending Goth on it, so it ends up inevitably losing anyway. Ultimately what makes Gothitelle a problem isn't Shadow Tag, it's the combination of Shadow Tag and Trick which lets it disable whatever defensive Pokemon it wants. Since the Gothitelle family are the only Pokemon with this combination, and since we lose less from banning Gothitelle than we do from banning Shadow Tag as a whole (unless you feel like using Scarf Competetive Gothitelle), suspecting the actual problem Pokemon makes more sense to me.

tldr; suspect the Gothitelle family; don't suspect Shadow Tag

I'm not entirely sure if suspecting the Gothitelle family is necessary. While I have no doubt that should Gothitelle be banned Gothorita would see a little usage, it's stats are so low and iirc it's movepool is shallower so I don't see it giving the same problems as Gothitelle at all. Same sort of reason as to why we didn't ban Frogadier and Froakie.

 

[SketchUp]

More importantly I would generally avoid having Diancie bounce back hazards simply because she has a bad match up against most of them, only safe one IMO is Skarmory, the rest carry a move that can easily dispatch her, flash cannon, gyro ball, or earthquake.

Actually it's also not that safe against Skarmory because I've seen more Salac Berry suicide leads sets who often run Iron Head so even then you lose. Magic Bounce doesn't fit that well on Mega Diancie, but it works against toxic/wisp/taunt which is pretty nice.

 

[UltiMario]

I'd like to see more discussion on the 2 closest suspects in Smogon's history: Aegislash and Genesect.

I'd like to first note Genesect because it feels like if something in Ubers is going to drop, it's going to be Gene. It used to be Greninja's big brother when it was around in early XY, but now Gren way surpassed it in terms of power and versatility, and while it was easily Ubers, it wasn't absolutely meta breaking like most Ubers (ex Mence). Especially with the light power creep introduced by ORAS and seeing how the ORAS meta's capability to at least somewhat handle a mon that was basically LO and Scarf Gene with better coverage rolled up into 1 set, I really don't see Gene's power, versatility, or access to Download being as defining as they were in XY. Especially not on only base 99 Spe.

Aegis on the other hand is sitting on a slightly higher pedestal, unlike Gene it has the full ability to warp the metagame around it, being the deciding factor on what is viable and what is not. However, in Aegis' case... that's a good thing.

This is where we start digging deeper. There is one really notable problem right now: Lando-T. It's usage has far surpassed anything that any OU meta has ever seen, its prevalence is so all-encompassing that at their highest usage when they were together in a metagame, it currently has more usage than the combined usage of both Aegislash and Genesect. Why is this happening? The answer is pretty obvious: there simply aren't other good pivots in the tier. If you need glue, it's Lando-T. It's the only thing left that can answer the sheer volume of threats ORAS has, and it effectively prevents many things from tearing the tier apart. This is a serious problem. Much larger than MGross, much larger than Sableye, much larger than Shadow Tag. The game is currently stuck in a fixated state where if you're not running stall, you're nearly forced to run Lando-T because you don't have other options. The threats are too large in number and are too strong in XY. This is a problem that the game's been having since Gen 5, the questions too far outnumber the answers, and the threats are much stronger than the Pokemon used to check them. This causes a game heavily biased by team match-ups, where your opponent could be carrying something you simply do not have the room to check, causing a near instant loss. Lando-T is used on so many teams because it shrinks the number of instant-loss mons by an incredibly large number. It is the last good pivot left in the game.

This is where we go back to Gene and Aegis. These mons are threats in their own right, they both are versatile, hit like a truck, and have overall fantastic stat allocation and typing. This is how they got in Ubers, but maybe we should've looked deeper into the meta shifts before we did this. Genesect's ban might've caused the worst meta in Smogon's history, it took multiple bans that happened over the course of months to finally put the game into a state where HO teams weren't ruining the game, and this fault game from the fact Gene was the glue that prevented all that from happening. Gene no longer has this power, as the types of teams it negated are no longer viable due to these bans, but it still is a strong asset to checking offensive threats in the meta. Aegis also dictated the game, making many otherwise OU-capable mons get stuck into BL or UU because they simply can't cope with it. Both these held the game in a state where dozens of Pokemon were locked away, unviable as threats because these Pokemon existed. They were the perfect pivots. They did what Lando-T is doing now, but also doubled as very good mons on their own. Ultimately, this is what the game needs. We currently are stuck in a meta where it is no longer possible to build non-stall teams that that sufficiently check the metagame (and it's only possible for stall to do that because of M-Sable), and this is where we need to look at suspects not in the perspective of their individual ability, but the effect they have on the game. Many people wanted to ban Aegis initially because it would bring more versatility into the game, but I believe after seeing how the Gen 6 meta has progressed it's pretty clear that versatility isn't always a good thing. Sometimes we need these incredibly strong pivots to prevent many threats from being viable in OU, which allows a meta that is less dictated on team match-up and more on teambuilding and player skill. I feel like both these mons would help weaken the power of top threats such as Mgross while not being completely overbearing in themselves.


As a final note, I'd like to discuss MSableye in regards to the potential of these mons dropping. As is stands, with Sable banned, stall is done. We will actually be left with 0 playstyles left in the game where the game comes down to mostly player skill rather than team match-up, since no other playstyles are currently capable of avoiding bad match-ups. Even Goth doesn't dictate an instant loss for stall due to the strength of MSable stall teams. I think this change is incredibly bad for the game if not complimented with something else, and that something else is Aegislash. If Aegis were to drop, I'd fully support a suspect test for Sableye, since now stall would have the wiggle room to play around with many different metas and team building styles, rather than being stuck in a place where they're just building around Sableye. Aegis not only is a strong asset for stall teams that would prevent the forced usage of Sableye on stall, but its presence in the meta pushes out threats that Stall currently has to worry about, many of which are Sableye checks. With Aegis in the meta I'm very confident that Sabeye's presence would no longer be needed, and if Aegis and Sable were swapped out we'd end with stall having less restrictive teambuilding while building for and against stall.


tl;dr- Aegis and Gene have a positive effect on the game because they encourage a game based on teambuilding and player skill rather than team match-ups. We should suspect test to drop them. Sableye as it currently stands is fine, but if Aegis drops it needs a test.

 

[Pagoose]

Actually it's also not that safe against Skarmory because I've seen more Salac Berry suicide leads sets who often run Iron Head so even then you lose. Magic Bounce doesn't fit that well on Mega Diancie, but it works against toxic/wisp/taunt which is pretty nice.

Even the very rare suicide lead sets don't run iron head; they always have stealth rocks and spikes, and then have to pick 2 of taunt, endure and brave bird. Iron head would be mediocre compared to brave bird, as the recoil allows skarmory to kill itself once it has been brought down to sturdy, stopping the removal of hazards.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

I dont really think any of the things people are talking about are as broken as people are making them to be. Maybe geopass +gothitelle, but i dont know if ive even seen that. I'm sure its out there, but it doesnt seem that widespread.

Mega Metagross just because it's super fast, bulky, and hit very hard. Access to an amazing move pool, agility, etc. Also a spammable BP 90 STAB with a chance to boost attack and a free life orb boost is great. It's also kinda link greninja, in the sense you don't know if you can wall it until its full set is revealed.

I disagree with this for sure, though it seems to be the consensus for the most part. Megagross, while incredibly strong, is not unstoppable. For example, its smacked in the face by foul play from Mandi, which is by NO means an otherwise useless mon.

0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 236-282 (78.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 182-216 (43 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

(not to mention, Mandi can roost off the damage to buy some time)

Sableye is super annoying, but it isnt unstoppable either. One answer I really like is skill swap Gallade. It bounces back Sableye's will-o-wisp, which then turns Knock off into a 2hko. Sableye is able to do some damage back, but it gets shut down hard. Also, there is Clefable keeping him in check. it doesnt annihilate Sable fasho, but she does make his life difficult, and she can take multiple approaches to the situation.

Reposting from trapping abilities thread
I am not convinced Shadowtag is broken, but am convinced Gothitelle is. Goth just destroys stalls teams with no effort. Sure other stalls breakers like Manaphy put it work vs stall, but can be played around. Goth can not be played around. If played right (which isn't hard), it comes in kills something then other team sweeps, easy as that. Sure its so so vs offense, but can still put in work trapping things like Keldeo, MegaHeracross. Yet it completely wrecks balance and stall. It can just take out Cresslia, Clefable, Mega Venu, Quag, Chansey, Skarmory, Ammongus, Ferrothorn and those are just the things off the top of my head. Yet, i'm not so convinced the other Shadowtag users are broken. If gothitelle was banned could Gothorita be anywhere near as good as Gothitelle? I really don't know. It could still trap, but with its lower stats would be anywhere near effective? Lastly, i'm not quite convinced Wobbutfett is broken. It is total taunt bait. Its forced to play guessing games with set-up sweepers/mixed attackers. Stall users can just toxic it. Really only things it beats are choiced locked attackers and mons with 4 attacks. It just isn't that effective. Conclusion: I wouldn't really mind if Shadowtag was banned, but really think Gothitelle is the only broken user, but would be open to being proved wrong.

Goth is way good, but Im definitely lol-ing when people say shes broken. She certainly does NOT destroy stall with no effort- Lets not forget about Mega sableye, one of the biggest promoters of conversation on this thread, and kinda the god of stall atm. Venusaur hates her, along with other poisons, but there are a lot of other stall mons that dont mind her as much. Not to mention, she is nowhere near centralizing, so unlike other mons that have been banned, she doesnt require that you build your entire team to stop her, as its not guaranteed you will run into her at all (not that she should be ignored when building a team).

As for Aegis and Gene, I think the first should def be tested, and possibly the second, but im not so sure.

 

[New Light]

I can see where people are coming from on Mega Sableye, although as of now I wouldn't vote to ban it since it is checked by every relevant Fairy. Mega Metagross I don't see as potentially broken at all. It's just really good. It has viable counters (Skarm, Mandibuzz, Slowbro if it lacks Grass Knot) and lacks the versatility and sweeping potential of Greninja, Aegis and pretty much every other mon that has been suspected so far this generation. I have to agree that the most detrimental things to the meta right now are Quick/GeoPass and Shadow Tag/Goth for reasons already mentioned. Not looking forward to enduring another BP suspect ladder if it comes to that.
The ninja ban makes the 121 speed tier more godly so maybe we'll see more Hurricane spam from Tornadus-T and Mega Pidgeot. The latter might be worthy of getting bumped up a bit in the viability rankings.

 

[pika pal]

To weigh in, I'm not really in favor of a Suspect Test for Mega Sableye, or at least would not vote to ban if it happened. One thing noted heavily is just how ridiculously much Sableye can bring in a single team slot: hazard control, status to stop physical attackers, recovery, great typing, and even CM for a win condition.

The thing is, the reason Sableye is such an important asset is because of how hard pressed Stall teams are to function with all the offensive threats the game has, and even then it's not quite a sure thing with threats like Mega Gyarados or Houndoom.

There's a LOT of hard hitters in the Metagame at the moment, either with sheer power or other Stall breaking utility: Metagross, Gengar, Gyarados, Latios, Gardevoir, Heracross, Kyurem-B, Houndoom.

Sableye stops a good number of them, but the sheer number of problematic Pokemon means Stall is hard pressed to form the necessary defensive cores to deal with them all even with him around. Mega Sableye may be centralizing a bit since the Metagame has to account for him to fight Stall, but if he goes, so does Stall on the whole. The kind of offensive threats running about right now is too much for stall to handle (remember they were running Doublade just to try and patch up back in Post-Aegi XY). Aegislash had a similar effect, since his presence was centralizing, but losing him cost stall the backbone it needed to handle the Wallbreakers. Plenty of Pokemon got more viable, but the playstyles overall became much more favorable to offensive teams now.

My point is, Sableye is centralizing, but the metagame would ultimately be less healthy since Sableye, while a very potent one, is the only thing holding Stall together right now.

 

[Kurona]

I honestly never found Sableye much of a threat when teambuilding to be quite honest. Maybe it's just me but I find it easy to get something that beats it on the team like Unaware Clef, Charizard X, SD Talonflame, Heatran or Mega Gardevoir. Hell, get something bulky in on it with a sub like Mega Gyarados and it can't touch you.

 

[Karxrida]

To weigh in, I'm not really in favor of a Suspect Test for Mega Sableye, or at least would not vote to ban if it happened. One thing noted heavily is just how ridiculously much Sableye can bring in a single team slot: hazard control, status to stop physical attackers, recovery, great typing, and even CM for a win condition.

The thing is, the reason Sableye is such an important asset is because of how hard pressed Stall teams are to function with all the offensive threats the game has, and even then it's not quite a sure thing with threats like Mega Gyarados or Houndoom.

There's a LOT of hard hitters in the Metagame at the moment, either with sheer power or other Stall breaking utility: Metagross, Gengar, Gyarados, Latios, Gardevoir, Heracross, Kyurem-B, Houndoom.

Sableye stops a good number of them, but the sheer number of problematic Pokemon means Stall is hard pressed to form the necessary defensive cores to deal with them all even with him around. Mega Sableye may be centralizing a bit since the Metagame has to account for him to fight Stall, but if he goes, so does Stall on the whole. The kind of offensive threats running about right now is too much for stall to handle (remember they were running Doublade just to try and patch up back in Post-Aegi XY). Aegislash had a similar effect, since his presence was centralizing, but losing him cost stall the backbone it needed to handle the Wallbreakers. Plenty of Pokemon got more viable, but the playstyles overall became much more favorable to offensive teams now.

My point is, Sableye is centralizing, but the metagame would ultimately be less healthy since Sableye, while a very potent one, is the only thing holding Stall together right now.

That's the exact reason why people want it tested; it does way too much for one Mon and makes dealing with Stall more of a pain than it already is. Being unable to punish walls for switching with SR or Spikes makes them harder to break, especially when you have to deal with them on your own side in the process.

Concerning other shit:

Banning Magic Bounce
The issue with this is that nothing with the ability has the bulk or recovery to actually abuse it and ensure hazards stay off the field. It's definitely a good ability due to the Status immunity but it's not an auto-breaker like Moody or Evasion.

Mega Metagross
I do think a suspect is necessary because it has the perfect combination of bulk and power, but I'm not sure of its brokenness yet. Its checks are very common (and not niche) and it has some 4MSS since both STABs are mandatory on all sets and their coverage isn't amazing.

Shadow Tag
No comment since I have a massive anti-Stall bias.

Retesting Genesect and Aegislash
For the love of God keep Genesect upstairs. Scarf is one of the most mindless things ever and Genesect is just way too versatile in general. Aegislash I'd like to see retested since it still has a ton of checks running around the tier that aren't niche pieces of shit and the vote was really close.

Baton Pass
We still need to stop GeoPass and maybe QuickPassing since I've seen Scolipede do some major BS like passing in front of a Taunt Thundurus (fuck Mental Herb).

Sorry for the less than desirable formatting and length, I'm on my phone. I'll probably edit this when I get the chance.

EDIT: Finally fixed the formatting.

 

[pika pal]

That's the exact reason why people want it tested; it does way too much for one Mon and makes dealing with Stall more of a pain than it already is. Being unable to punish walls for switching with SR or Spikes makes them harder to break, especially when you have to deal with them on your own side in the process.

I understand Sableye does do a lot for one mon, and looking at this a bit later now it might warrant a suspect test, but I still wouldn't personally vote to ban. The reason Sableye is the backbone of stall is because doing all that itself is the only way the rest of Stall can viably mix itself up. There's very few Pokemon that can form solid cores that could cover Sableye's additional jobs AND reliably outlast the kind of offensive threats Stall needs to be ready to handle. Sableye takes the secondary jobs on so the rest of the team can devote itself to the type synergy needed.

And while a Metagame heavily oriented towards stall can be annoying, I prefer that to a Metagame in which Stall is unviable just because Power Creep has made the offensive threats strong enough to simply batter through them when the type synergy of the members is spread too thin because of other jobs.

This is slightly off the topic of the thread itself, but can someone tell me what quickpass means? I feel like a total noob.

Short version, usually refers to passing a simple and quickly acquired boost from something like Speed Boost Scolipede.

 

[robofiend]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned M-Slowbro. I find this thing to be incredibly hard to deal with, as its defense stat is already high and after 1-2 CMs it can do a surprising amount of damage to anything not named Chansey. The RestTalk/CM set is irritating as hell and is only truly stopped by something like Vaporeon. Furthermore, it can't be killed by Bisharp's Knock Off (no 1.5x item boost) and after a CM even Thundurus fails to do beat it.

M-Sableye is good, but is offset by the newfound strength of Fairies, who can blow right through it. It is an absolute monster on stall teams but I don't think it's broken necessarily, its just really really good at being a wall. Sableye's biggest problem is that it struggles to get into play pre-evo, and is pretty useless without Magic Bounce. I'd say this guy gets the backseat for now because there's something that more obviously needs to be banned first...

M-Metagross is pretty obviously centralizing. It's so offensive that it easily breaks common walls, making balanced and hyper offensive teams scared of it. Full on stall teams can hang, but M-Meta's ability to break through Venusaur/Heatran/Ferrothorn/Rotom-W/Conkeldurr makes running bulkier offensive teams a huge risk: each of them gets 1-2hko'd by M-Meta's nuclear-powered attacks. All of these pokemon used to enjoy reasonably high usage due to their good bulk and offensive capability, but now that M-Metagross is around all of them have trouble justifying their existence on any OU team. Out of anything available in OU right now, Mega Metagross is the most obvious choice for physical options due to how strong and varied its movepool is, combined with solid typing, stats and an Ability that turns even resisted Meteor Mashes into an opporutunity for Metagross to sweep most of your team.

 

[Metalhand]

In my opinion we should consider re-test of a banned mons(aegislash, maybe another one?), rather than test something. Sure, m-gross is incredible and m-sableye is godly, but none of them is broken-they don't extremly limiting teambuilding, they can be revenge killed by common things and you don't need to be overpreapared deal with them.
I like the meta at the moment, its very stable imo.

 

[Karxrida]

I understand Sableye does do a lot for one mon, and looking at this a bit later now it might warrant a suspect test, but I still wouldn't personally vote to ban. The reason Sableye is the backbone of stall is because doing all that itself is the only way the rest of Stall can viably mix itself up. There's very few Pokemon that can form solid cores that could cover Sableye's additional jobs AND reliably outlast the kind of offensive threats Stall needs to be ready to handle. Sableye takes the secondary jobs on so the rest of the team can devote itself to the type synergy needed.

And while a Metagame heavily oriented towards stall can be annoying, I prefer that to a Metagame in which Stall is unviable just because Power Creep has made the offensive threats strong enough to simply batter through them when the type synergy of the members is spread too thin because of other jobs.


Short version, usually refers to passing a simple and quickly acquired boost from something like Speed Boost Scolipede.

I cannot speak for anyone else here, but a stall-oriented metagame is one of the last things I want. Stall is a very boring thing to fight against due to how long it takes and just watching things NOT DIE, and Stall wars are the worst. Games take long enough as it is, thanks.

I also feel like trying to preserve Stall is just delaying the inevitable; GT clearly hates it (at least that's how it looks to me). We barely got any good (intentionally) defensive Megas while offensive ones are everywhere, and each gen is less willing to give anything a good recovery move.

 

[Sochlo]

I understand Sableye does do a lot for one mon, and looking at this a bit later now it might warrant a suspect test, but I still wouldn't personally vote to ban. The reason Sableye is the backbone of stall is because doing all that itself is the only way the rest of Stall can viably mix itself up. There's very few Pokemon that can form solid cores that could cover Sableye's additional jobs AND reliably outlast the kind of offensive threats Stall needs to be ready to handle. Sableye takes the secondary jobs on so the rest of the team can devote itself to the type synergy needed.

I don't see how this is a reason as to why Sableye shouldn't at least be suspected. The amount of support Sableye brings just by existing is crazy, and its effects on the metagame has become apparent. IMO it's the most centralizing thing in OU atm and deserves at least a suspect test. It's nice that Stall is back but the logic of keeping a possibly unhealthy Pokemon in OU for the sole reason of preserving a playstyle just doesn't sit right with me.

 

[pika pal]

I cannot speak for anyone else here, but a stall-oriented metagame is one of the last things I want. Stall is a very boring thing to fight against due to how long it takes and just watching things NOT DIE, and Stall wars are the worst. Games take long enough as it is, thanks.

I also feel like trying to preserve Stall is just delaying the inevitable; GT clearly hates it (at least that's how it looks to me). We barely got any good (intentionally) defensive Megas while offensive ones are everywhere, and each gen is less willing to give anything a good recovery move.

Nonetheless, if Stall can be kept around by something not broken (which Sableye should be considered unless banned in a test), it should be given its fair shake. Stall is shriveling because Gamefreak is entirely focused on Doubles and VGC with what they add (otherwise somebody probably would've thought a bit more on Mega Kangaskhan). And even in spite of that, there's Megas clearly more oriented towards support or defense offense (Audino, though Doubles oriented, is clearly meant as a wall).

I don't see how this is a reason as to why Sableye shouldn't at least be suspected. The amount of support Sableye brings just by existing is crazy, and its effects on the metagame has become apparent. IMO it's the most centralizing thing in OU atm and deserves at least a suspect test. It's nice that Stall is back but the logic of keeping a possibly unhealthy Pokemon in OU for the sole reason to preserve the playstyle just doesn't sit right with me.

The difference as I see it is that a metagame without Sableye has plenty of potential to be even less healthy. A Metagame with him favors stall, but does not shunt out the other playstyles as totally unviable. A Metagame without him would become virtually all offense, since the ridiculous amount of offensive threats being introduced makes Stall almost impossible to play.

Prior to Gen 6, offensive teams usually still needed to be sure they had type coverage sufficient enough for Stall, since even with the ridiculous offenses of rain things were still overall bulky enough to handle non-super effective hits. However, the things Gen 6 has introduced, between the Knock Off Buff and so many ridiculous Megas, means that its entirely possible for offense to simply overwhelm a Stall team if they take anything besides resisted hits. Aegislash was vital for Stall while he was around because he was the only thing that could reliably handle so many of these wallbreakers without compromising the teams overall synergy for the rest of the Metagame, and I still don't think Sableye is anywhere near that level.

Sableye centralizes the Metagame perhaps, but he doesn't outright kill other playstyles as his absence most likely would. Aegislash was a dam for hyper offense in the metagame true, but Sableye is more of a dam with cracks or that is simply being overflowed. If he goes, Stall as a playstyle is essentially dead.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Nonetheless, if Stall can be kept around by something not broken (which Sableye should be considered unless banned in a test), it should be given its fair shake. Stall is shriveling because Gamefreak is entirely focused on Doubles and VGC with what they add (otherwise somebody probably would've thought a bit more on Mega Kangaskhan). And even in spite of that, there's Megas clearly more oriented towards support or defense offense (Audino, though Doubles oriented, is clearly meant as a wall).



The difference as I see it is that a metagame without Sableye has plenty of potential to be even less healthy. A Metagame with him favors stall, but does not shunt out the other playstyles as totally unviable. A Metagame without him would become virtually all offense, since the ridiculous amount of offensive threats being introduced makes Stall almost impossible to play.

Prior to Gen 6, offensive teams usually still needed to be sure they had type coverage sufficient enough for Stall, since even with the ridiculous offenses of rain things were still overall bulky enough to handle non-super effective hits. However, the things Gen 6 has introduced, between the Knock Off Buff and so many ridiculous Megas, means that its entirely possible for offense to simply overwhelm a Stall team if they take anything besides resisted hits. Aegislash was vital for Stall while he was around because he was the only thing that could reliably handle so many of these wallbreakers without compromising the teams overall synergy for the rest of the Metagame, and I still don't think Sableye is anywhere near that level.

Sableye centralizes the Metagame perhaps, but he doesn't outright kill other playstyles as his absence most likely would. Aegislash was a dam for hyper offense in the metagame true, but Sableye is more of a dam with cracks or that is simply being overflowed. If he goes, Stall as a playstyle is essentially dead.

stall still has mega alt/mega bro, so its not dead as a playstyle per se, its just gonna be unfavorable compared to offense

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

In my opinion we should consider re-test of a banned mons(aegislash, maybe another one?), rather than test something. Sure, m-gross is incredible and m-sableye is godly, but none of them is broken-they don't extremly limiting teambuilding, they can be revenge killed by common things and you don't need to be overpreapared deal with them.
I like the meta at the moment, its very stable imo.

I agree with you, but the argument "it can be revenged killed" doesnt really count for anything

 

[Taehl]

I think M-Slowbro is one best pokemon out there, especially now that Greninja is gone. It can easily set up on almost every physical attacker, Bisharp can't 2HKO it because Knock Off doesn't get the boost, and once it's set up it's almost impossible to kill. With Shell Armour you can't crit it to ignore the SpDef boost either. This guy has swept so many teams for me, I feel like it's worthy of a suspect test.

I can't really say much about M-Metagross, since I have M-Slowbro on my team which completely walls it, so my opinion about it is biased.

As for Sableye, I don't think it should be suspect tested. It's a good pokemon that can fullfil many roles effectively, but it's not broken. It's checked by most fairys, who are everywhere in the current metagame, and even completely countered by things like unaware Clefable. It's bulk also isn't that great compared to other walls, which makes it vulnerable to hard-hitting pokemon and moves. Another problem it's got is the fact that it doesn't have Magic Bounce before it mega-evolves, and Sableye is pretty useless without it. This sometimes makes it struggle to get into play before it's mega-evolved. Finally, it's setup bait for pokemom like Talonflame and M-Charizard X, who are immune to Will-O-Wisp.

EDIT: Concerning Gothitelle/Shadow Tag, I think banning an ability for just a certain pokemon is stupid. Either ban the ability as a whole or ban the pokemon. An ability is a part of the pokemon. You might aswell ban some coverage moves for Greninja and make it ou again then.

 

[Machi]

I understand Sableye does do a lot for one mon, and looking at this a bit later now it might warrant a suspect test, but I still wouldn't personally vote to ban. The reason Sableye is the backbone of stall is because doing all that itself is the only way the rest of Stall can viably mix itself up. There's very few Pokemon that can form solid cores that could cover Sableye's additional jobs AND reliably outlast the kind of offensive threats Stall needs to be ready to handle. Sableye takes the secondary jobs on so the rest of the team can devote itself to the type synergy needed.

And while a Metagame heavily oriented towards stall can be annoying, I prefer that to a Metagame in which Stall is unviable just because Power Creep has made the offensive threats strong enough to simply batter through them when the type synergy of the members is spread too thin because of other jobs.


Short version, usually refers to passing a simple and quickly acquired boost from something like Speed Boost Scolipede.

I am by no means a stall player but at least experience of facing them and from what I have observed in the ladder, starting say the Greninja OU suspect ladder, I at least noticed that there are certainly viable builds of stall that didn't rely on MSable. Most successful ones being those with MVenus, which many of us are seeing a resurgence (likely due to Sub-CM Keldeo), aside that there were stall builds higher up the ladder that used MAltaria to good effect etc. The point being that I do understand how important MSable's role in stall is being this one stop package but I do feel it is at least hasty to say that the play style would likely be dead or unable to adapt with the available tools, when that really isn't the case.