ORAS - post-Greninja - Metagame Discussion

[WECAMEASROMANS]

However I disagree that Smeargle and Scolipede are not broken. If a pokemon can provide support so powerful that you can literally sacrifice half of your entire team and still sweep the enemy team, that mon is broken. We ban pokemon based on their best sets, even if they have other legitimate uses.

Smeargle is uncompetetive not because of BP alone, but because he can boost to absurd levels in an incredibly short amount of time while at the same time prevent other mons from setting up alongside him. It's not different then the MegaKahn era where if you weren't prepared to sac half your team, you either needed to run cofag, sableye, or crap like rocky helm garchomp.

TL;DR Just because a mon requires support does not make it not broken.

See, the problem I have with this proposal is that it actually doesn't fix the problem, which is the move baton pass itself. Again, first off, Smeargle/Scolipede are not good stat boosters by themselves, as they both have subpar defensive stats (Smeargle especially). They are only able to achieve a successful baton pass through immense team support, which is tailwind, memento, screens, encore, etc. This itself is huge. No other broken pokemon has ever required this much team support, which is approximately saccing half or more than half of your team just so you can set up. See: Mega Lucario/Deo-D. Mega Lucario didnt' need you to sac 2 mons to weaken an opposing pokemon just so it can set up and then sweep. Similarly, Deo-D didn't need support either to set multiple layers of hazards on the opposing team. You simply can't compare Smeargle/Scolipede to other pokemon deemed ubers.

Second off, even if Scolipede/Smeargle are broken (but they aren't), banning them wouldn't change anything. You're honestly telling me that no other stat booster besides these two, when given such tremendous team support, can set up with ease and baton pass to a fearsome sweeper? That's wrong by itself. Here's a replay of a team I just made, and it's literally user: Dennissss' team, but instead of Smeargle, I replaced it with Gorebyss. This illustrates the fact that given proper team support, almost any pokemon can set up without difficulty, and then proceed to baton pass to another pokemon which can then destroy the opposing team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-208641079

In a nutshell:

1. Smeargle & Scolipede aren't broken because they require far too much support to be deemed broken compared to other previous ubers.
2. If we do ban Smeargle & Scolipede, they would just be replaced with other stat boosters such as Gorebyss/Huntail/any quiver dancer/etc and the same problem would occur. The issue isn't the stat boosters, its the move Baton Pass itself.

We shouldn't ban Scolipede nor Smeargle. The main problem is Baton Pass, which is why a blanket ban on the move should be necessary.

 

[Wimblesaurus]

There really isn't anything wrong with mental herb, white herb or power herb though. Hawlucha for example is a perfectly balanced mon that uses power herb very well.

The most reasonable nerf is to ban the broken passers.

Did we ban Slowbro and Mew when Endless Battle was a fad?

I'm talking about a ban of the use of Mental Herb in conjunction with baton pass. That combination of item and move really only shows up on Scolipede, and is exactly what makes its typical quickpass set so infamously reliable. Axing every single Scolipede set when we can get rid of the biggest problem (its ability to protect turn one, ID turn two and get taunted, but pass anyway turn 3) with an only slightly more surgical ban.

Scolipede is an interesting pokemon for reasons besides its quickpass set. It's a fast physical bug type with decent power and a movepool that doesn't completely suck. It seems like an injustice to give a whole pokemon the axe when one move and one item when used in conjunction with each other are what pushes it into broken territory

Now that I think about it, though, banning the combination of Power Herb and Baton Pass would still allow Smeargle to run all three of Spore, Geomancy, and Baton Pass, with a sash that lets it accomplish basically the same thing and still have a slot for Cotton Guard. Giving Geomancy the hammer would probably be more efficient.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Did we ban Slowbro and Mew when Endless Battle was a fad?

I'm talking about a ban of the use of Mental Herb in conjunction with baton pass. That combination of item and move really only shows up on Scolipede, and is exactly what makes its typical quickpass set so infamously reliable. Axing every single Scolipede set when we can get rid of the biggest problem (its ability to protect turn one, ID turn two and get taunted, but pass anyway turn 3) with an only slightly more surgical ban.

Scolipede is an interesting pokemon for reasons besides its quickpass set. It's a fast physical bug type with decent power and a movepool that doesn't completely suck. It seems like an injustice to give a whole pokemon the axe when one move and one item when used in conjunction with each other are what pushes it into broken territory

Now that I think about it, though, banning the combination of Power Herb and Baton Pass would still allow Smeargle to run all three of Spore, Geomancy, and Baton Pass, with a sash that lets it accomplish basically the same thing and still have a slot for Cotton Guard. Giving Geomancy the hammer would probably be more efficient.

Mental herb is only one viable item to put on scoli. A lot of them run black sludge, sash, LO, and I've even encountered a couple gimmicky starf berry and weakness policy ones to give stored power a boost.

If we just ban geomancy we might as well bring xerneas back.. which isn't happening. You can take geomancy off smeargle, but the brokenness about him is being able to adjust to anything pretty much. He can still run shell smash+magic coat to screw with pranksters giving him opportunities to allow sweeps and easily get hazards up. Geomancy is just one toy he gets, one he can live without anyway.. so the issue isn't necessarily resolved.

I'm not saying they're broken, but I'm saying your solution is pretty.. to be blunt.. awful.

Also what does slowbro and mew have to do with the endless battle clause? All the clause does is stop recycle+leppa berry+trick+recovery.

 

[Zebstrika]

See, the problem I have with this proposal is that it actually doesn't fix the problem, which is the move baton pass itself. Again, first off, Smeargle/Scolipede are not good stat boosters by themselves, as they both have subpar defensive stats (Smeargle especially). They are only able to achieve a successful baton pass through immense team support, which is tailwind, memento, screens, encore, etc. This itself is huge. No other broken pokemon has ever required this much team support, which is approximately saccing half or more than half of your team just so you can set up. See: Mega Lucario/Deo-D. Mega Lucario didnt' need you to sac 2 mons to weaken an opposing pokemon just so it can set up and then sweep. Similarly, Deo-D didn't need support either to set multiple layers of hazards on the opposing team. You simply can't compare Smeargle/Scolipede to other pokemon deemed ubers.

Second off, even if Scolipede/Smeargle are broken (but they aren't), banning them wouldn't change anything. You're honestly telling me that no other stat booster besides these two, when given such tremendous team support, can set up with ease and baton pass to a fearsome sweeper? That's wrong by itself. Here's a replay of a team I just made, and it's literally user: Dennissss' team, but instead of Smeargle, I replaced it with Gorebyss. This illustrates the fact that given proper team support, almost any pokemon can set up without difficulty, and then proceed to baton pass to another pokemon which can then destroy the opposing team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-208641079

In a nutshell:

1. Smeargle & Scolipede aren't broken because they require far too much support to be deemed broken compared to other previous ubers.
2. If we do ban Smeargle & Scolipede, they would just be replaced with other stat boosters such as Gorebyss/Huntail/any quiver dancer/etc and the same problem would occur. The issue isn't the stat boosters, its the move Baton Pass itself.

We shouldn't ban Scolipede nor Smeargle. The main problem is Baton Pass, which is why a blanket ban on the move should be necessary.

There are differences with Smeargle/Scolipede compared to the others. Smeargle and Scolipede have a lot of ways to get around the conventional counters to baton pass, while most of the other passers don't.


In your replay, Gorebyss had no way to stop the opponent's sableye from boosting (and has no way to stop any other pokemon from boosting), and that should have cost you the game if you didn't get a crit. Also Amoonguss would have stopped Gorebyss but it got trapped by other arguably broken support (Gothitelle). I think your 4th move was barrier but I didn't see it, so correct me if I'm wrong. If you didn't run both barrier and amnesia, any powerful pokemon that attacks from the right stat can just keep attacking and Gorebyss won't have many turns to boost, and Espeon wouldn't be able to take the pass without taking a lot of damage. Without substitute there is no way to block any status move, like Spore, Clear Smog, Leech Seed, Trick, etc, except with some of them to pass to Espeon immediately with just one boost. Gorebyss has no way to block other stuff like Taunt, phazing, and Encore either, except again to pass with only one boost.


There are a lot of ways to play around baton pass. But Smeargle can get around them with Spore and being able to boost both defenses quickly. And Scolipede is so efficient at boosting with speed boost + Iron defense that it can afford to run substitute, mental herb, and/or a lure attack to get around its counters, and because of speed boost it boosts faster than almost any other pokemon. The only pokemon you listed that can get around so many of its counters is Venomoth with Sleep Powder and Wonder Skin and imo it's the only one that will be a problem if Scolipede and Smeargle are gone.


Either way we would need to actually test what other baton passers are really broken besides Smeargle and Scolipede, not just ban stuff based on theorymon

 

[Dark G]

I apologize in advance if i'm regurgitating things that have already been thoroughly discussed...I just don't feel like reviewing 14 pages worth of text simply to weigh in on this lol. Without further ado:

Aegislash: I support a retesting of this mon 1000% due to the current state of the ORAS metagame. Gamefreak has proven to push the power creep with each iteration, and ORAS was no exception. It will soon get to a point where Team Matchup will define the outcome of a game more than ever before simply due to not being able to check/counter every relevant threat in OU. Teambuilding is more difficult than ever before when you factor in the sheer multitude of potent threats (specifically megas) that can single-handedly wreck your entire team without much prediction.

Aegislash would be far more beneficial than detrimental if it was introduced back into the meta as it is the only mon that can contain this power creep due to its unparalleled defensive typing and bulk. It would change OU for the better imo

Metagrossite: Easy Suspect. Ridiculous Offenses, hits a crucial speed tier, amazing ability in Tough Claws that boost both of its STABS, and incredible bulk for what is primarily used as an offensive mon. The ninja ban obviously benefited Mega-Metagross greatly as it was one of the few non-scarfed mons that could outspeed and do a fuck ton of damage with dark pulse.

Suspect pls

Sablenite: Prime example of a mon that is often forgotten in teambuilding, even though it can easily wall large portions of your team or outright sweep it with its CM set if you come unprepared. I don't think anybody predicted just how dangerous this thing would prove to be pre-Oras. More often than not, if you fail to bring a fairy type, you can almost guarantee M-Sableye will be putting in a fair bit of work to your team. If that wasn't enough, it's the undisputed greatest utility mon i've ever seen in OU. From spreading burns via WoW throughout your team Prankster pre-mega (aswell as post-mega), knocking off items with the amount of switches it forces, Spinblocking and preventing hazards from getting set up on your side of the field with magic bounce.

It's doing too much lol. Definitely suspect-worthy

GeoPass: GeoPass is ebola if it was a pokemon-archetype. Yeah, it's that lame. Takes zero skill to use effectively and matches are usually decided at team matchup.

At this point, I would like to see a Baton Pass ban since it would be the least restrictive and has been proven to be an inherently broken move that will continue to be exploited.

Shadow Tag: If Greninja can get suspected for arguably destroying an entire archetype (Hyper Offense), then Shadow Tag needs to be suspected for ruining Stall. While Wobuffet can be dangerous if played correctly, the main culprit as to why STAG is unhealthy is clearly Gothitelle. Gothitelle fits best on balanced and even opposing stall teams that have trouble functioning against specific mons. Its primary objective is rendering a check or counter completely useless via Trick which later allows another potent mon ample opportunities to wreak havoc throughout your team.

Although Gothitelle is extremely uncommon in current meta it's still unhealthy for an entire playstyle. Gothitelle (STAG) should be suspected

 

[Heatedline]

Also, I'd just like to point out that "Even if you pack something that beats Mega Sableye, it's still doing a damn good job at completely stopping defensive mons and walling several attackers" is an awful argument. Let me demonstrate:

"Even if you pack something that beats Mega Gardevoir, it's still doing a damn good job at tearing through stall teams."
"Even if you pack something that beats Chansey, it's still doing a damn good job at completely stopping special attackers and even walling a few physical ones."
"Even if you pack something that beats Mega Charizard X, it's still doing a damn good job at sweeping teams."

I'm not going to even reply to your previous points because you're clearly not getting what I said. Just going to show how wrong you are with these examples. If you pack something that beats Mega Gardevoir like Jirachi, it's not tearing through your stall team. The Zard-X example is wrong too because it won't be able to sweep you if you have a check, such as Quagsire/Scarf Land-T. The statement is correct for only Chansey. You'll notice that these mons have a sort of one-dimensional way of use, while Mega Sableye accomplishes much more in one slot.

 

[Wimblesaurus]

Mental herb is only one viable item to put on scoli. A lot of them run black sludge, sash, LO, and I've even encountered a couple gimmicky starf berry and weakness policy ones to give stored power a boost.

Mental Herb is the main item Scolipede runs on BP teams (the matter at hand, in other words). A scolipede that isn't running mental herb can be pressured by most taunt users into passing before it gets iron defense or a sub up, while also only passing one stage of speed.

If we just ban geomancy we might as well bring xerneas back..

I don't follow. And why are you saying "back"?

which isn't happening.

no shit.

You can take geomancy off smeargle, but the brokenness about him is being able to adjust to anything pretty much. He can still run shell smash+magic coat to screw with pranksters giving him opportunities to allow sweeps and easily get hazards up. Geomancy is just one toy he gets, one he can live without anyway.. so the issue isn't necessarily resolved.

Shell Smash is much, much easier to play around than Geomancy + Cotton Guard, chiefly because Smeargle is going to either pass defense debuffs or get its shit knocked out right after it uses it.

Shell Smash Pass existed in Gen V (with better users of the combo than smeargle being present, to boot). It's never really been a problem except in other tiers.

Geomancy increases a pokemon's bulk instead of decreasing it, while still giving the relevant boosts special attackers would get from shell smash. If that wasn't enough, paired with Spore it can also give Smeargle the opportunity to get up a Cotton Guard and then pass even more monstrous boosts.

I'm not saying they're broken, but I'm saying your solution is pretty.. to be blunt.. awful.

Neither am I, really, which is why my proposal was designed to be relatively unintrusive (name one pokemon besides ninjask and scolipede that uses a mental herb with BP, and one pokemon outside of ubers that learns geomancy and isn't smeargle) while still neutering the problem sets.

Also what does slowbro and mew have to do with the endless battle clause? All the clause does is stop recycle+leppa berry+trick+recovery.

Mew and Slowbro with particular sets were the main perpetrators of endless battles.

See, what I was saying is that if we just ban baton pass or scolipede/smeargle, we'd be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, just like we would have been if we had banned Mew and Slowbro during the EB fiasco.

 

[Machi]

Mental Herb is the main item Scolipede runs on BP teams (the matter at hand, in other words). A scolipede that isn't running mental herb can be pressured by most taunt users into passing before it gets iron defense or a sub up, while also only passing one stage of speed.

Actually focus sash is the most used:
Items | | Focus Sash 34.274% | | Mental Herb 28.688% | | Black Sludge 15.641% | | Leftovers 10.599% | | Life Orb 7.168% | | Other 3.629%

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-01/moveset/ou-1695.txt
(Same goes for other ratings)

Aside that it doesn't change the fact that the other items are just as viable of an alternative as explained above. Taunt isn't likely to be carried on many teams, or can be played around just as well, so the other items do have merit.

 

[Merritt]

Neither am I, really, which is why my proposal was designed to be relatively unintrusive (name one pokemon besides ninjask and scolipede that uses a mental herb with BP, and one pokemon outside of ubers that learns geomancy and isn't smeargle) while still neutering the problem sets.



Mew and Slowbro with particular sets were the main perpetrators of endless battles.

See, what I was saying is that if we just ban baton pass or scolipede/smeargle, we'd be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, just like we would have been if we had banned Mew and Slowbro during the EB fiasco.

The issue is that Mental Herb+Baton Pass being banned won't solve the problem. Regular SmashPass is still effective at allowing for a sweep, as you have to use either priority or insane speed scarfers to get a hit in.

The main difference between Slowbro and Mew being banned vs Scolipede and Smeargle being banned is that Endless Battle sets are a) not the best set for the Pokemon to run and b) it was an issue with the set itself.

Saying that Funbro increases your chances of winning a battle is completely incorrect. In fact, its entire goal is to not have anybody win. Although you would certainly get several forfeits it is better to use a more standard set in order to advance up the ladder.

The Endless Battle sets are banned instead of the users because they are, in themselves, uncompetitive. It takes the issue out of the game and into real life to make it an issue of who'll give up first. There is no legitimate use for an Endless Battle set outside of this purpose. In addition, if any other Pokemon had access to the combination of moves necessary it would be uncompetitive on them too. It's not a user making the "strategy" (and I use the term loosely) broken or uncompetitive, but the "strategy" itself.

In comparison Baton Pass as a move isn't fundamentally uncompetitive or broken. There are multiple legitimate uses, such as NastyPass (which isn't broken) SubPass (which isn't broken) or just running Baton Pass to avoid trapping through STag or Pursuit. The users make it broken through moves/abilities they have access to, but Baton Pass isn't broken on most of the multitude of Pokemon that have access to it. Banning Baton Pass isn't the way to go, but neither is half-assed attempts to reduce it that ultimately aren't enough (see: Baton Pass Mk I and II).

Aegislash: I support a retesting of this mon 1000% due to the current state of the ORAS metagame. Gamefreak has proven to push the power creep with each iteration, and ORAS was no exception. It will soon get to a point where Team Matchup will define the outcome of a game more than ever before simply due to not being able to check/counter every relevant threat in OU. Teambuilding is more difficult than ever before when you factor in the sheer multitude of potent threats (specifically megas) that can single-handedly wreck your entire team without much prediction.

Aegislash would be far more beneficial than detrimental if it was introduced back into the meta as it is the only mon that can contain this power creep due to its unparalleled defensive typing and bulk. It would change OU for the better imo

This is an endorsement of both Overcentralization (run Aegislash in order to win, and if you don't you're likely screwed) and Broken checking/countering Broken (or in this case "not broken") which are both things we want to avoid. Aegislash should only be retested if it is no longer so powerful that it would dominate OU or centralize the meta around it.

 

[BasedCannon]

This is an endorsement of both Overcentralization (run Aegislash in order to win, and if you don't you're likely screwed) and Broken checking/countering Broken (or in this case "not broken") which are both things we want to avoid. Aegislash should only be retested if it is no longer so powerful that it would dominate OU or centralize the meta around it.

I really think people need to stop and think before they try and persuade others that Aegislash will be just as over-centralizing as it was in XY. The truth and facts are in the usage stats. The counters that people use for higher usage threats also can double as counters for Aegislash should it return. That does not make Aegislash over-centralizing. Yes, the sets can vary and adapt to this. As with any threat, so does the meta.

My issue with this thread is that the majority of people seem to be in favor of a re-suspect test. If we look at the last suspect for Aegislash, we see it was BARELY banned. It wasn't a blow-out and it wasn't one-sided; it was banned by a 62% majority meaning that a few votes could have forced the mon to stay in the tier and this discussion to never be happening.

So if the majority want to re-suspect it, then re-suspect it. Give the people what they want. Hold a vote if you have to. If the OU players want Aegislash back, despite whatever consequences that the opposers want to put forward, give them their chance to bring it back.

 

[Simperheve]

I really think people need to stop and think before they try and persuade others that Aegislash will be just as over-centralizing as it was in XY. The truth and facts are in the usage stats. The counters that people use for higher usage threats also can double as counters for Aegislash should it return. That does not make Aegislash over-centralizing. Yes, the sets can vary and adapt to this. As with any threat, so does the meta.

Wasn't Aegislash banned because it was over-centralizing? If we're looking to retest something, the question should be "Has the problem that caused its ban been mitigated?". Yes, the community might really like Aegislash, but we shouldn't retest it without having a good grasp whether the over-centralisation that caused it's suspect/banning have been dealt with in the current state of the meta. Otherwise it will be a wasted test.

 

[haunter]

Wasn't Aegislash banned because it was over-centralizing? If we're looking to retest something, the question should be "Has the problem that caused its ban been mitigated?". Yes, the community might really like Aegislash, but we shouldn't retest it without having a good grasp whether the over-centralisation that caused it's suspect/banning have been dealt with in the current state of the meta. Otherwise it will be a wasted test.

The purpose of the test would be, ultimately, to evaluate to what degree Aegislash could centralize the metagame around it. We'll never know if Aegislash is still an overcentralizing force in the metagame if we don't retest it.

However, truth be told, retesting Aegislash is not a priority right now. We want to achieve a stable and balanced tier before retesting curret Ubers.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

See, the problem I have with this proposal is that it actually doesn't fix the problem, which is the move baton pass itself. Again, first off, Smeargle/Scolipede are not good stat boosters by themselves, as they both have subpar defensive stats (Smeargle especially). They are only able to achieve a successful baton pass through immense team support, which is tailwind, memento, screens, encore, etc. This itself is huge. No other broken pokemon has ever required this much team support, which is approximately saccing half or more than half of your team just so you can set up. See: Mega Lucario/Deo-D. Mega Lucario didnt' need you to sac 2 mons to weaken an opposing pokemon just so it can set up and then sweep. Similarly, Deo-D didn't need support either to set multiple layers of hazards on the opposing team. You simply can't compare Smeargle/Scolipede to other pokemon deemed ubers.

Second off, even if Scolipede/Smeargle are broken (but they aren't), banning them wouldn't change anything. You're honestly telling me that no other stat booster besides these two, when given such tremendous team support, can set up with ease and baton pass to a fearsome sweeper? That's wrong by itself. Here's a replay of a team I just made, and it's literally user: Dennissss' team, but instead of Smeargle, I replaced it with Gorebyss. This illustrates the fact that given proper team support, almost any pokemon can set up without difficulty, and then proceed to baton pass to another pokemon which can then destroy the opposing team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-208641079

In a nutshell:

1. Smeargle & Scolipede aren't broken because they require far too much support to be deemed broken compared to other previous ubers.
2. If we do ban Smeargle & Scolipede, they would just be replaced with other stat boosters such as Gorebyss/Huntail/any quiver dancer/etc and the same problem would occur. The issue isn't the stat boosters, its the move Baton Pass itself.

We shouldn't ban Scolipede nor Smeargle. The main problem is Baton Pass, which is why a blanket ban on the move should be necessary.

Except Scolipede and Smeargle don't need tailwind, screens, memento etc... They all just help. Both mons are perfectly capable of passing to other mons with little to no support. Sorry no replays on hand.

The only halve decent quiver passer is venomoth, who isn't even that good.
Gorebyss and huntail can only pass offensive boosts and requires a white herb to offset stat drops. While they can do so pretty well. its nowhere near the level of smergle and scolipede and are much easier to handle.

 

[jpw234]

I really think people need to stop and think before they try and persuade others that Aegislash will be just as over-centralizing as it was in XY. The truth and facts are in the usage stats. The counters that people use for higher usage threats also can double as counters for Aegislash should it return. That does not make Aegislash over-centralizing. Yes, the sets can vary and adapt to this. As with any threat, so does the meta.

Can you name one? Or are you just making shit up because you want Aegislash back in the tier?

My issue with this thread is that the majority of people seem to be in favor of a re-suspect test. If we look at the last suspect for Aegislash, we see it was BARELY banned. It wasn't a blow-out and it wasn't one-sided; it was banned by a 62% majority meaning that a few votes could have forced the mon to stay in the tier and this discussion to never be happening.

So if the majority want to re-suspect it, then re-suspect it. Give the people what they want. Hold a vote if you have to. If the OU players want Aegislash back, despite whatever consequences that the opposers want to put forward, give them their chance to bring it back.

Shockingly, the people who want Aegislash back are more likely to post in this thread than the silent majority who is happy to leave it alone. Selection bias much?

 

[BasedCannon]

Wasn't Aegislash banned because it was over-centralizing? If we're looking to retest something, the question should be "Has the problem that caused its ban been mitigated?". Yes, the community might really like Aegislash, but we shouldn't retest it without having a good grasp whether the over-centralisation that caused it's suspect/banning have been dealt with in the current state of the meta. Otherwise it will be a wasted test.

That was an argument that was used during the initial suspect testing. However, the meta is already saturated with checks and counters to this Pokemon. It cannot be over-centralizing if it does not force you to bring counters you weren't already bringing for other higher used threats. This is one of the biggest reasons I don't think people understand. In XY, it might have been too good for the meta. In ORAS, I don't think it'll be as good as it was. I could very well go on and detail and list every calc necessary to try and reason with people here, but I'd hope people would be able to figure it out themselves.

Though I do agree with Haunter that certain suspect tests should take priority over this. While I'd love to see this be the first one to happen, I'm much more concerned with the status of Mega-Sableye.

Can you name one? Or are you just making shit up because you want Aegislash back in the tier?

Shockingly, the people who want Aegislash back are more likely to post in this thread than the silent majority who is happy to leave it alone. Selection bias much?

Whether or not I want Aegislash back in the tier has no relevance here. I'm just supporting the majority that's arguing here. Counters though? Landorus-Therian, Heatran, Bisharp, Mega Sableye, Garchomp. All of which are commonly seen Pokemon in the tier. I could probably list twenty if I wanted to, but your condescending tone tells me I don't have to. Unlike some people, I'm not going to present an argument without having my facts straight.

Edit: Though since you seem to be so quick to the gun, why don't you give me five solid reasons Aegislash can't come back?

 

[WebBowser]

See, the problem I have with this proposal is that it actually doesn't fix the problem, which is the move baton pass itself. Again, first off, Smeargle/Scolipede are not good stat boosters by themselves, as they both have subpar defensive stats (Smeargle especially). They are only able to achieve a successful baton pass through immense team support, which is tailwind, memento, screens, encore, etc. This itself is huge. No other broken pokemon has ever required this much team support, which is approximately saccing half or more than half of your team just so you can set up. See: Mega Lucario/Deo-D. Mega Lucario didnt' need you to sac 2 mons to weaken an opposing pokemon just so it can set up and then sweep. Similarly, Deo-D didn't need support either to set multiple layers of hazards on the opposing team. You simply can't compare Smeargle/Scolipede to other pokemon deemed ubers.

Second off, even if Scolipede/Smeargle are broken (but they aren't), banning them wouldn't change anything. You're honestly telling me that no other stat booster besides these two, when given such tremendous team support, can set up with ease and baton pass to a fearsome sweeper? That's wrong by itself. Here's a replay of a team I just made, and it's literally user: Dennissss' team, but instead of Smeargle, I replaced it with Gorebyss. This illustrates the fact that given proper team support, almost any pokemon can set up without difficulty, and then proceed to baton pass to another pokemon which can then destroy the opposing team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-208641079

In a nutshell:

1. Smeargle & Scolipede aren't broken because they require far too much support to be deemed broken compared to other previous ubers.
2. If we do ban Smeargle & Scolipede, they would just be replaced with other stat boosters such as Gorebyss/Huntail/any quiver dancer/etc and the same problem would occur. The issue isn't the stat boosters, its the move Baton Pass itself.

We shouldn't ban Scolipede nor Smeargle. The main problem is Baton Pass, which is why a blanket ban on the move should be necessary.

Believe it or not, I actually agree with you on a lot of points, except that a blanket ban is the right course of action.

Banning Scolipede and Smeargle is merely step one of making BP balanced and healthy for the metagame.

Step two, which I have already started working on in this post, is to define standards by which we can analyze potentially broken baton passers and determine whether or not they are ban worthy.

Step three is to analyze current BP mons using those standards and try to break them. Anything we manage to break, we suspect/ban.

Step four: profit

As for the "too much support argument", all that simply proves is that the broken mons we are analyzing are unique and rather different from anything we had encountered previously. Being different from any other uber does not make it not uber, it just means we need new methods for analyzing them.

Lastly, that replay was utter garbage. I can show you the innumerable occasions where my espeon sweeps got cut short due to a lucky crit from a talonflame or something. Hax works both ways and should never be used as an argument for or against something being broken.

*edit*

Lil YoshiXD Sorry to call you out on this, but Gorebyss gets both amnesia and a defense boosting move (barrier or ID, I forget which). Also, don't forget Mew gets BP too and a plethora of boosting moves to boot. Also, Smeargle very much so needs help, as stated in my analysis of geopass smeargle in a previous post. Wcar has made legitimate points that should be taken seriously.

 

[pika pal]

I just want to weigh in on the Aegislash argument and Baton Pass.

As far as Aegislash, I'd never be foolish enough to argue that he didn't centralize the Metagame. Broken or just great, that sword had trends wrapped around its hilt. That said, I still didn't feel like the Meta wasn't developing when he was present, just that it was a different manner. In the current Meta, I noticed more of a trend of people experimenting with new Pokemon altogether, compared to the Aegis Meta seeing more experimentation on Pokemon already considered viable. In truth, I almost have this feeling that losing Aegislash is part of the reason there's so much inflation and clutter with people nominating D's and Low C's in the viability rank. True, Aegislash was a significant factor in the viability of some Pokemon (Mandibuzz most obviously), but these were at least Pokemon that could still serve a purpose if Aegislash was (somehow) not on the other team or just already dealt with. Meanwhile, right now, there's people nominating things like Granbull, which I'm confident no one would ever so much as thought about in the Aegis meta. The difference isn't so much that the Metagame can't develop with Aegislash, but rather that it does develop around him. Whether or not that's better than the Meta we've got with some arguing there's too much to handle at once is a matter of opinion. I'm in favor of a retest whenever the current suspects of the Meta are dealt with, but I wouldn't be surprised whatever the outcome of that turns out to be.

As for Baton Pass, I agree with the sentiment that Scolipede and Smeargle, the ridiculous boosters, are more of the problem than anything. Scolipede brings a very fast booster with plenty of Physical boosting options and defenses more resilient than Abomasnow after Overheat, while Smeargle just benefited from getting access to the single most ridiculous boosting move in the game with Geomancy.

What's tricky for me here is that Scolipede only becomes particularly disgusting by passing those boosts: His mediocre Attack and bulk means that, while threatening, he'd be manageable if he used the boosts himself. Smeargle, as could be imagined, has very little viability outside of Passing: HO has better suicide leads, Utility mons abound, and Smeargle hits like a wet noodle even if it somehow gets to +6.

Much as I like the former (though I don't care about the latter), the most immediate solution would probably be to suspect Scolipede and Smeargle if we don't want to resort to complex bans again like "No Speed Boost + Baton Pass" or something.


Why do all my favorite designed Mons end up being Ubers? First Blaziken, then Genesect, Aegislash, Greninja, and now Scolipede? Everything I love breaks!!!

 

[Merritt]

That was an argument that was used during the initial suspect testing. However, the meta is already saturated with checks and counters to this Pokemon. It cannot be over-centralizing if it does not force you to bring counters you weren't already bringing for other higher used threats. This is one of the biggest reasons I don't think people understand. In XY, it might have been too good for the meta. In ORAS, I don't think it'll be as good as it was. I could very well go on and detail and list every calc necessary to try and reason with people here, but I'd hope people would be able to figure it out themselves.

Whether or not I want Aegislash back in the tier has no relevance here. I'm just supporting the majority that's arguing here. Counters though? Landorus-Therian, Heatran, Bisharp, Mega Sableye, Garchomp. All of which are commonly seen Pokemon in the tier. I could probably list twenty if I wanted to, but your condescending tone tells me I don't have to. Unlike some people, I'm not going to present an argument without having my facts straight.

Edit: Though since you seem to be so quick to the gun, why don't you give me five solid reasons Aegislash can't come back?

The issue is that the meta really isn't prepared for Aegislash. You keep insisting that we already use the counters (and since you obviously read the suspect thread rules before posting you know what that means) but don't actually name them. Let's look at big threats in today's meta. Mega Metagross. Mega Sableye. Mega Lopunny. Keldeo. What, in return, do people usually bring for them? We have things like Mega Slowbro, Landorus-T, Skarmory, Fairies, Gyarados, ect.

For MSableye, one of the ones you mentioned as a threat, the best answer is fairies, and you suggested bringing The Fairies' Bane back down. Mega Slowbro has that obvious issue of being weak to ghost. There aren't any real counters that overlap to an extreme degree.

You did provide a list of your own counters, however. Let's go through it.

Hide

Landorus-T

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 190-225 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 210-248 (64.8 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not a counter. Offensive doesn't do well either.

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 252-296 (77.7 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Heatran

4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 176-208 (45.7 - 54%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 374-444 (115.4 - 137%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Works.

Bisharp

4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 368-436 (135.2 - 160.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 236-282 (72.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not even a check, disregarding King's Shield mindgames.

Mega Sableye

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO

Aegislash even outspeeds.

Garchomp

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 183-216 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO

0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 192-228 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bulky Garchomp works... As long as Aegislash isn't carrying Shadow Sneak. Other sets are clean 2HKOs.

Mega Slowbro

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 386-456 (97.9 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Ouch.

As for the edit point, the burden of proof rests on you. However, points such as a meta that is more welcoming to Aegislash (with MegaGross and Fairies) and an overall lack of newly introduced threats to Aegislash have been brought up by far smarter people than me.

 

[BasedCannon]

The issue is that the meta really isn't prepared for Aegislash. You keep insisting that we already use the counters (and since you obviously read the suspect thread rules before posting you know what that means) but don't actually name them. Let's look at big threats in today's meta. Mega Metagross. Mega Sableye. Mega Lopunny. Keldeo. What, in return, do people usually bring for them? We have things like Mega Slowbro, Landorus-T, Skarmory, Fairies, Gyarados, ect.

For MSableye, one of the ones you mentioned as a threat, the best answer is fairies, and you suggested bringing The Fairies' Bane back down. Mega Slowbro has that obvious issue of being weak to ghost. There aren't any real counters that overlap to an extreme degree.

You did provide a list of your own counters, however. Let's go through it.

As for the edit point, the burden of proof rests on you. However, points such as a meta that is more welcoming to Aegislash (with MegaGross and Fairies) and an overall lack of newly introduced threats to Aegislash have been brought up by far smarter people than me.

I highly disagree that the meta isn't "prepared for Aegislash". I've seen your calcs, Most of them were fair. Though I would never be as foolish to say Mega Slowbro is remotely a check or counter to Aegislash. If anything it'd need a few calm minds to even stand a chance. The only calc I am going to leave is an alternative Lando-T set to the defensive variant.

Landorus-T (Earth Plate Variant/Choice Scarf)

Hide

252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 276-326 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 193-228 (60.5 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hide

Now I recognize that you made a good point with the Defensive set. Yet if Aegislash were to return, I'd expect a more aggressive set to become prominent; not that the Choice Scarf set is obsolete by any standard. The calcs here clearly show Aegislash isn't taking an Earthquake well at all. On the flip side, Lando doesn't particularly care to take a shadow ball. So I'll retract my counter statement and call Lando-T a check for now. A very strong one at that.

Obviously we can go back and forth. EVs can be presented and warped to beat one another. I'm not going to do that because that's only something that should be relevant when and if Aegislash does come back. Instead I'm going to actually agree with Haunter here in the sense that Aegislash, while worthy of at least suspecting, isn't the priority. So until the day comes, since it's become pretty clear to me over the past couple days, that the Aegi talks become serious, I'll wait. For what it's worth I'm much more interested in a suspect test regarding M-Sableye and my opinions on that gremlin can be found in the first few pages of the thread.

 

[astroboy]

why are you still arguing for aegislash after haunter literally just said were not gonna retest it right now lol
aegis is just as overcentralizing and broke as it was before. its gained more than it lost in the increased viabity of fairies, and more megas it takes advantage of (also it cant be trapped! thats something worth noting, as duggy just cant come in and take a decent chunk off of it)

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Believe it or not, I actually agree with you on a lot of points, except that a blanket ban is the right course of action.

Banning Scolipede and Smeargle is merely step one of making BP balanced and healthy for the metagame.

Step two, which I have already started working on in this post, is to define standards by which we can analyze potentially broken baton passers and determine whether or not they are ban worthy.

Step three is to analyze current BP mons using those standards and try to break them. Anything we manage to break, we suspect/ban.

Step four: profit

As for the "too much support argument", all that simply proves is that the broken mons we are analyzing are unique and rather different from anything we had encountered previously. Being different from any other uber does not make it not uber, it just means we need new methods for analyzing them.

Lastly, that replay was utter garbage. I can show you the innumerable occasions where my espeon sweeps got cut short due to a lucky crit from a talonflame or something. Hax works both ways and should never be used as an argument for or against something being broken.

*edit*

Lil YoshiXD Sorry to call you out on this, but Gorebyss gets both amnesia and a defense boosting move (barrier or ID, I forget which). Also, don't forget Mew gets BP too and a plethora of boosting moves to boot. Also, Smeargle very much so needs help, as stated in my analysis of geopass smeargle in a previous post. Wcar has made legitimate points that should be taken seriously.

Happy to argue:
i do not believe gorebyss, huntail mew, or any other passer besides scolipede or smeargle to be broken or anywhere near it. Nasty pass, or just plain defense passing are not really broken.

Quick comparison:
Smeargle can: get +2 spe SPA SPD in one turn. In addition it can also boost defense to +3 in one turn, sleep something.
Scolipede can get to +2 def and +1 speed in one turn. Also with protect it can get another +1 speed in one turn. In most cases it can even iron defense again due to its increased bulk and speed. Then pass +3 def and speed to something and its usually gg par a crit.
Gorebyss if it wants to pass defense can only get +2 def or SPD in one turn. Quite inferior to the above two.

All Smeargle needs is something it outspeeds then spore>geomance>Pass. Granted you don't get the cotton guard boost this way and its harder, but it can still function quite well and win games. Screens memento, tailwind etc... just make life easier.

 

[Dark G]

This is an endorsement of both Overcentralization (run Aegislash in order to win, and if you don't you're likely screwed) and Broken checking/countering Broken (or in this case "not broken") which are both things we want to avoid. Aegislash should only be retested if it is no longer so powerful that it would dominate OU or centralize the meta around it.

The overcentralization argument would be a sound one granted we were playing the same Metagame as to which Aegi was banned but ORAS is just so vastly different that it needs to be retested somewhere in the future. XY is nowhere near as offensive as ORAS with the inclusion of the new megas

"Broken" mons would not be as broken if Aegislash was in the tier and was able to provide players with more options in teambuilding. There has been a recurring theme in ORAS OU battles in you're fucked if you're opponent brings pokemon Y and you failed to bring pokemon Z to check/counter it.

Edit: Shit, just read Haunter's message. Will not be arguing about this any more lol

 

[WebBowser]

Happy to argue:
i do not believe gorebyss, huntail mew, or any other passer besides scolipede or smeargle to be broken or anywhere near it. Nasty pass, or just plain defense passing are not really broken.

Quick comparison:
Smeargle can: get +2 spe SPA SPD in one turn. In addition it can also boost defense to +3 in one turn, sleep something.
Scolipede can get to +2 def and +1 speed in one turn. Also with protect it can get another +1 speed in one turn. In most cases it can even iron defense again due to its increased bulk and speed. Then pass +3 def and speed to something and its usually gg par a crit.
Gorebyss if it wants to pass defense can only get +2 def or SPD in one turn. Quite inferior to the above two.

All Smeargle needs is something it outspeeds then spore>geomance>Pass. Granted you don't get the cotton guard boost this way and its harder, but it can still function quite well and win games. Screens memento, tailwind etc... just make life easier.

Don't get me wrong, I never went as far as to say that Gorebyss is on the same level as scoli or smeargle (though I have not claimed the opposite either), I was more addressing this post:

Except Scolipede and Smeargle don't need tailwind, screens, memento etc... They all just help. Both mons are perfectly capable of passing to other mons with little to no support. Sorry no replays on hand.

The only halve decent quiver passer is venomoth, who isn't even that good.
Gorebyss and huntail can only pass offensive boosts and requires a white herb to offset stat drops. While they can do so pretty well. its nowhere near the level of smergle and scolipede and are much easier to handle.

These two statements are simply incorrect. Gorebyss and Huntail are perfectly capable of passing defensive boosts. Perhaps not as effectively as scoli, but capable nonetheless. As stated earlier, geopass Smeargle needs team support because without it, he simply will get one shotted the moment he tries to setup. He is actually very unreliable without some team support. That doesn't make Smeargle not broken any more then having access to defense boosting moves make Gorebyss broken, but I want this discussion to be grounded in actual facts as much as possible.

The main point I made in the post you quoted is that it would be incredibly short-sighted to assume that Scolipede and Smeargle are going to be the only two broken passers we will ever see, therefore we need to figure out what makes them broken and come up with some standards for determining if other passers are broken. If we find that some mons that we've previously overlooked happen to be broken, so be it. If we find that you're right and that there are no other broken passers at this time, then great, we'll still have these standards for when next gen inevitably grants us an even more ridiculous passer.

 

[BasedCannon]

why are you still arguing for aegislash after haunter literally just said were not gonna retest it right now lol
aegis is just as overcentralizing and broke as it was before. its gained more than it lost in the increased viabity of fairies, and more megas it takes advantage of (also it cant be trapped! thats something worth noting, as duggy just cant come in and take a decent chunk off of it)

You, sir, need to learn to read. Let me quote the text for you since you obviously missed it.

Hide

Obviously we can go back and forth. EVs can be presented and warped to beat one another. I'm not going to do that because that's only something that should be relevant when and if Aegislash does come back. Instead I'm going to actually agree with Haunter here in the sense that Aegislash, while worthy of at least suspecting, isn't the priority. So until the day comes, since it's become pretty clear to me over the past couple days, that the Aegi talks become serious, I'll wait. For what it's worth I'm much more interested in a suspect test regarding M-Sableye and my opinions on that gremlin can be found in the first few pages of the thread.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Counters though?

Landorus-Therian

Can't switch into flash cannon or shadow ball. HP ice

Heatran,

Doesn't appreciate sacred sword or head smash.

Bisharp,

Jolly max speed Sacred swords. (Although bisharp could easily run jolly nature.. however he still must be wary on switch.)

Mega Sableye,

To a degree I suspose..

Garchomp.

Same as lando.
_____________________
Anyway, yeah aegislash discussion should end. I do agree with haunter about what's priority right now. I'm anti-ban about scolipede for the same reasoning right now as he's not some dominate threat in OU currently. Likewise for smeargle. Whether they're broken or not.. I can't honestly argue for either, it's much trickier to argue for them not being broken than them being broken certainly... however there are bigger problems in OU.

Mega sableye.. I'm honestly leaning anti-ban because like slowbro, he's not as broken as he was in the early oras meta.. fairies pressure him, new threats in serperior and even emboar counter, while power creep does pull through pressuring him more from pokemon like dragalge.

I notice a difference in HO because of sableye too.. I see some pokemon actually increasing in viability. Namely volcarona and SD talonflame, even mega gyarados got better with mold breaker taunt. The only pokes with their viability being lost is gallade, and metacham. One potentially broken after sableye and M-gross leave.. and the other risking UU.