All Gens The Best Types In History - Round 2: GSC (See post 114)

[Jellicent]

Switching gears to the bottom of the barrel real quick, it looks like there's a consensus on the worst 5 being Dragon, Poison, Bug, Fire, and Fighting. If we can hammer out the actual order for these, we'll be able to focus on the middle bunch.

Probably the most important thing to figure out here is whether or not the effectiveness of Pokemon belonging to one of these types in OU, despite the typing itself being only a hindrance, is enough to place it above others. In other words, does Poison get a boost because Gengar and Victreebel can still find uses, even though their Poison typing only adds major weaknesses, brings zero coverage, and actively holds them back?

I'm also going to remind people that ties are allowed, although it's obviously best if they can be avoided. Bug and Fighting are probably the closest things to a tie in these rankings, as they both only really offer coverage moves to Jolteon. I'd probably give the edge to Fighting personally, as there are at least super niche Fighting-types that could find use on some teams, but the difference is really minor at that point (arguably which coverage move is more valuable to Jolteon has more of in impact.)

 

[Disaster Area]

pin missile is mandatory on jolteon
double kick isn't
:]

 

[Crystal_]

Poliwrath? Well, it's better than Beedrill

 

[Disaster Area]

you wouldn't use either in serious play though..

jolteon it's not unrealistic you would use it though.

Both types are better than fire..

 

[Jellicent]

Should viability of rarely-used moves outweigh viability of even less-used Pokemon?

What about a type that's rarely seen in the metagame at all vs one that does nothing but bring down the commonly-used Pokemon that get stuck with it? (Fire vs Poison, in this case.)

How does Dragon measure up to the others? No attacks to speak of, the only one around is Dragonite, and all its added typing does is increase its Ice weakness, balance out an Electric weakness, add a resistance to Water and Fire, and double its resistance to Grass. Its impact on the metagame is extremely small, but perhaps a slight positive overall for the one viable Pokemon belonging to the type (assuming the extra resistances are even worth doubling up on that Ice weakness.)

These are the kinds of things we have to weigh out here. We've discussed what makes a type the best pretty extensively, but deciding what makes one the worst will help us really flesh out the middle mons. It'll also of course help us with later rounds, though RBY is probably the most polarized and difficult of any gen considering it has the fewest Pokemon, types, and attacks.

 

[Crystal_]

Dragonite would benefit from being mono-flying though. The majority of Pokemon that have an electric attack also have an ice attack anyway, while the only Pokemon that uses a water attack as its main source of offense is Slowbro. Grass is mostly irrelevant considering it'd still be 1/2 resistant. Taking less than 50% from non-stab ice moves from the likes of Tauros/Chansey/Starmie and not being OHKOed by Lapras/Jynx/Cloyster would be really huge. Outweighs Slowbro/Zapdos/Gengar/Jolteon matchups.

 

[Jellicent]

Dragonite would benefit from being mono-flying though. The majority of Pokemon that have an electric attack also have an ice attack anyway, while the only Pokemon that uses a water attack as its main source of offense is Slowbro. Grass is mostly irrelevant considering it'd still be 1/2 resistant. Taking less than 50% from non-stab ice moves from the likes of Tauros/Chansey/Starmie and not being OHKOed by Lapras/Jynx/Cloyster would be really huge. Outweighs Slowbro/Zapdos/Gengar/Jolteon matchups.

True, but he'd benefit more from being mono-Dragon. Flying offers nothing in terms of added STAB while doubling his Ice weakness, removing an Electric resist, and adding a Rock weakness. The only real benefit is the Ground immunity, but the common users of Earthquake (Tauros, Rhydon, Golem, Snorlax) are dealing more damage with Blizzard or Rock Slide than they would have with Earthquake if the Flying typing was removed. The only perk is that free switch in against the slower three if you predict correctly.

Dragon and Flying are both preferable to Dragon / Flying, which puts both ahead of say Poison (where any dual typing is significantly improved by removing Poison and significantly worsened by removing the other typing.) Flying at least offers benefits to Zapdos and Dodrio, so it's not a purely awful typing; it's just bad when mixed with Dragon. Sadly, we can't really see how Dragon benefits anything else, since the only one we've got is Dragonite. It makes it a very awkward type to properly assess defensively, and the type offers absolutely nothing offensively to help determine its rank. It's just ahead of detrimental types and in a debatable league somewhere around the other mediocre types.

 

[Golden Gyarados]

Even if a type is terrible, that could still be an "influence" on the metagame. For instance, Gengar's horrible Poison typing influences the metagame by making Earthquake mandatory on Tauros, and making Earthquake more appealing than Surf on Snorlax (in most situations). Yes, Gengar wishes it wasn't Poison, and it's nothing but a hindrance ... but it's a hindrance that influences the meta none-the-less. I just can't see Poison taking the bottom slot.

Dragonite is in a similar, but different boat. It wishes it wasn't Flying, for instance, but the fact that it *is* Flying doesn't impact the metagame - the things that carry Ice moves will still carry Ice moves; people don't carry Ice moves to exploit Dragonite's typing (it's just a bonus), but people carry Ground moves specifically to exploit Gengar's Poison typing. So I think Poison is a more influential type than Dragon.

So going back to Jellicent's question:

Probably the most important thing to figure out here is whether or not the effectiveness of Pokemon belonging to one of these types in OU, despite the typing itself being only a hindrance, is enough to place it above others. In other words, does Poison get a boost because Gengar and Victreebel can still find uses, even though their Poison typing only adds major weaknesses, brings zero coverage, and actively holds them back?

I think Gengar is influential BECAUSE of its bad typing. I think Dragon is NOT influential due to its typing. In my original post I said Dragon was better than Poison because Dragonite is a solid Pokemon, but if Dragon doesn't get a boost simply because Dragonite is pretty good, then I would say Poison > Dragon, because Poison influences, Dragon doesn't. And if a Pokemon's typing (even if it's terrible) can influence the meta in some way in order to create an answer to it - even if that answer is EASY - that still gives the type more points than something that contributes nothing, in my book.

For Fighting v Bug, I think if we look specifically at Jolteon, Pin Missile is better than Double Kick. Double Kick might chip damage to Goldon, but Jolteon isn't going to stay in against them, and it can't scare them out either. Jolteon still loses that match-up. Double Kick doesn't do enough to Chansey to make staying in worth it (IMO), and against any other normal, Thunderbolt is a better choice. So on Jolteon you run Double Kick to chip on the switch to Rocks, but it's really there because why not? Pin Missile, on the other hand, I think has actually more utility. Eggy should theoretically be a GREAT Electric-counter: Grass resist, plus great bulk and a hard-hitting Psychic. However, Zapdos has Drill Peck and Jolteon has Pin Missile, which means that Eggy is actually SCARED of the Electrics it should be able to counter easily. That's reasonably influential in my book.

But when it comes to viable Pokemon, there are Fighting Pokemon who can do more than the Bug Pokemon. Poliwrath is the best, IMO. But there is simply NO place for a Bug type in OU.

So in terms of moves, I think Bug is more influential; in terms of viable Pokemon, Fighting is more influential. It's a tough call. But the biggest point I want to make sure I get across is that a type being bad, or a hindrance to a specific Pokemon, can be just as influential as a type being great, and I think that's valuable to factor in this discussion.

 

[Jellicent]

Poison influences the metagame, but it doesn't actually benefit Poison-types in any way or see the light of day as an attacking option. Despite definitely having an influence, it is certainly not good in any way and we're trying to determine the best types.

 

[Golden Gyarados]

Poison influences the metagame, but it doesn't actually benefit Poison-types in any way or see the light of day as an attacking option. Despite definitely having an influence, it is certainly not good in any way and we're trying to determine the best types.

You're right that we have to determine the best types, but right now we're trying to figure out the bottom, which means we have to start asking what small benefits a type might bring to the table that could make it creep above something else. Gengar might wish it wasn't Poison because it does nothing but add weaknesses, but that weakness is only exploitable if a Pokemon chooses to exploit it. By that I mean, if it weren't for Gengar's Poison typing, you could run a mono-normal Snorlax set all day. Or you could run a Body Slam/Hyper Beam/Blizzard/Thunderbolt set on Tauros to hit Rocks with Blizzard *AND* hit Cloyster with Thunderbolt. That set would be awesome! But you can't because Gengar has a Poison typing you need to exploit. It's indirect, but by forcing really good Pokemon to run specific sets and therefore forcing them to make a trade-off from sets that might be more optimal in other conditions means that Poison has SOMETHING kinda good going for it. Like I said, it's so tiny, but we're looking for what makes things suck a little less than something else, and that gives Poison an edge to me.

ETA: As I think through it more, eh, Earthquake would probably hit a mono-Ghost harder than Blizzard or Thunderbolt or Surf would anyway, coming from Snorlax or Tauros, so they'd probably want to still run it since even though Gengar isn't "weak" to it, it would still do more damage. My theorymonning is a bit pointless though at this point, I concede, so I'll stop :)

Poison is still bad, I just still don't think that it's literally bottom bad.

 

[Lusch]

Actually you are not exploiting Gengars Poison-typing, running EQ. You rather cover up for the fact that it is Ghost and that you would otherwise not be able to hit it with Tauros at all. So the weakness to EQ makes it better, but what else should you run on Tauros to cover Gengar if it were mono Ghost? Its simply the best option anyway, so Poison type is a bonus there in my opinion but not the reason why to run EQ.

 

[Borat]

So the weakness to EQ makes it better

what?

 

[Jellicent]

what?

I think he means the weakness to EQ makes the move even better against Gengar. As in, even if Gengar was pure Ghost, EQ would be the best move. The part-Poison typing just makes it (EQ) even better.

 

[Jorgen]

Considering the criteria bounced around in this thread, I feel like a good rubric might be as follows:

(10)-Strength of Pokemon of that typing
(10)-Strength of moves of that typing
(10)-How much that typing actually helps/hurts those mons
(10)-How much that typing actually benefits those moves
(0)-How theoretically good typing X could be if Pokemon Y and Z got it
(0)-How theoretically good typing X could be if moves Y and Z were of that type

Seriously, if we're going to theorymon about type swaps, we're basically going to talk about how good a type is in a completely different tier where Fighting and Bug are the best attacking types. Let's not do that.

 

[Lusch]

Yes Jellicent, that was exactly what i meant. In conclusion, what I want to say is, that no pokemon runs EQ to exploit anyones poison-typing, namely not to expliot Victreebels poison-typing nor to exploit Gengars poison-typing. (Like i tred to explain from my perspective, running EQ for Gengar -yes- runnung EQ because of Geangars poison-typing -no-, rather because he is a ghost, and thus it's the best physical move to hit him with.) The point is, that poison, the type, is not influential for the metagame at all. The type itself contributes no move to the metagame (unlike bug and fighting (Jolteon)) and no move is being ran by any pokemon because of the poison type. That plus the fact that every mon that gets an additional poison-typing gets a lot worse, than it would be without it (like everyone else already said), puts poison at the very bottom of the list for me, even below fighting and bug.
Of course that's just a personal opinion, everyone should feel free to disagree with.

 

[Disaster Area]

gengar'd be OP without a poison typing ngl, and one of the main reasons EQ's run is because of gengar; counter and the rock types are only secondary to that.

I mean ye u'd hit gar with eq even if it didn't have its poison typing but gengar'd be so much better anyway that there's a lot less reason to run tauros, since gengar'd answer it so much more effectively than any other pokemon currently does. The only things that'd stop it being OP is the lack of power behind it allowing it to be walled by egg, but it'd become an incredible sleep absorber as well as sleeper and a more fantastic lead than it already is by a wide margin (no way to antilead it when no poison sub-typing) as well as a solid choice outside of the lead spot to get sleep later on, do damage with NS/Tbolt, explode on something once tauros is taken care of.

Poison should be bottom of the list for me just because it contributes so negatively to the pokemon that get it. Everything with a poison subtype would be happier without it, and a lot more viable. Fire is bad but it doesn't add anything negative to a pokemon apart from weakness to water/ground; poison adds psychic/ground weakness, which is worse. No poison or fire type attacks are good. It just so happens there's good poison types but no good fire types.

 

[Jellicent]

Would be cool to get this rolling along again so we can move on to other gens. The conversation should spice up as more types, Pokemon, moves, and mechanics are brought into the equation~

Just looking at the bottom 5 again, I've changed up my initial thoughts a tad. A this point I'm pretty inclined to say:
Dragon
Bug = Fighting
Fire
Poison

Dragon is slightly beneficial to Dragonite, even if it's kinda blown by the part-Flying typing and offers nothing offensively. In other words, it's pretty much the most bland typing possible with barely anything going for it.

Bug and Fighting mostly just exist in terms of Jolteon's coverage. Bug's the more important move, but there's also the rare Fighting types that occasionally fulfill some bizarre niche. Neither are impressive at all, and they're on pretty much the same page in the end.

Fire doesn't even see usage as an attack and is very rarely seen (Moltres, Charizard) as far as Pokemon go. Weaknesses to Ground, Water, and Rock are pretty shit, as is the possibility to thaw the opponent.

Poison is just the worst type. Offensively it's completely non-existent while defensively it carries a severe Psychic and Ground weakness that brings down everything it touches.


I'm also interested in hearing thoughts on the middle huddle of Rock, Ghost, and Flying. Rock has an advantage there imo, being a great offensive compliment to Ground and a nifty Normal resistance (though the weaknesses to Ground, Water, and Grass trip it up a bit). Flying vs Ghost is a little iffier, but I'm still more inclined towards Flying as it actually has an offensive role in the metagame. Defensively it's not too great, but the only Ghost has the worst possible defensive type completely ruining what would otherwise be amazing. Both wind up with a useful immunity and shitty weaknesses, so I give Flying the edge because Drill Peck.

 

[Disaster Area]

Don't forget rock's also useful flying resistance and is offensively about as useful as flying.

I agree with your whole post, if there's no disagreement in a few days time we can probably get to gen 2.

GSC will be fun since GSCers make up so much activity in this subforum x)

 

[Golden Gyarados]

I would rank Rock the highest of the three, as you have - since it has great defensive utility (Normal and Flying resist are great) and offensive power (Rock Slide is a great move super effective against Ice and Flying). There's little more satisfying than using Rock Slide while your opponent brings in something predicting Earthquake, especially when you end up taking out their Articuno in one hit, or dealing a fat chunk of damage to Lapras, Cloyster or Dragonite. Rock Slide puts some real hurt on, and the fact that you CAN so easily use Rock Slide over Earthquake and completely screw up predictions like that makes it even wilder. It's really just too bad there's only one Rock move in the whole meta and the accuracy is bad.

I would give Ghost the edge over Flying, though. Everything but Zapdos that *is* Flying wishes that it wasn't, and only Zapdos and Dodrio can take advantage of a decent Flying move, meaning most Flying types don't have any good STAB to take advantage of. Poison typing only drags down the dual types - I concede that point. But Flying type drags down all the dual typings except Zapdos ... means that Flying is pretty bad. Ghost has no STAB, but what Ghost does defensively is just so good. Poison typing drags Gengar down, but what Gengar *can* do outweighs what Flying can do. Immunity to Wrap alone has to give it some bonus points.

So I'd say Rock > Ghost > Flying

 

[Disaster Area]

thoughts on the motion flying = ghost?

 

[Borat]

are we settled on jorgen's scoring rubric? i like the points, but i'm still having a hard time quantifying everything. some pokemon are played more, and in some cases even specifically for their defensive typing (i.e. gengar/golem/egg, but this is looking forwards to the next generations) other pokemon are used offensively to the point where stab/non-stab plays a big part in how hard a pokemon is able to deliver hits (normals like snorlax/tauros are who they are because they get stab on hyper beam).

having said that, it makes sense to me to give pokemon the benefit of the doubt and be showcased in their preferred roles. however, even an offensive/defensive rubric won't make too much sense when we consider things like gsc snorlax.

tl;dr i have no idea how a scoring system would work for typing.

what i'm proposing now is essentially a 2 stage method. discussion -> democracy. discussion is just about finished judging from activity, so let's just vote and tally?

in short, we have a couple main points to consider (top 3 points in jorgens post):

1. how good are the pokemon of that type
2. how good are the moves of that moves type
3. pros/cons of typing for that pokemon
4. whatever else

how you value each is completely subjective to you imo, use your best judgement. i'm reluctant to include his 4th point since that seems to be covered by 2 and 3.

ANYWAY

1. normal
2. psychic
3. water
4. rock
5. ice
6. ghost
7. ground
8. grass
9. flying
10. electric
11. fire
12. bug
13. fighting
14. dragon
15. poison

murica

Piexplode: personally i think flying blows. zapdos is the only mon that arguably benefits from flying typing, and even then it's sorta ehhhh since it trades eq weak for ib weak. flying being immune to eq imo is largely irrelevant, since you get hit by rock slide/bs/blizzard from those pokemon that run eq. so basically all you get is an ib/tbolt weak with flying.

flying as an attack is pretty mediocre too, apart from drill pecks on chanseys and the odd sky attack.

that being said, i'm actually not too comfortable with 6-9 ranking that i have. i like ground over flying because eq plays a central part in shaping the meta. likewise, grass is a huge reason why egg is as good as he is, because he resists that eq. weak to ice is bad, but so is flying. resists eq, but flying is immune? but the only flyer that hits rock/grounds is articuno, who's 4x weak to rock slide.

Jellicent: how important is the lower 5 ranking? this is technically a thread titled the best types in history. i feel like even if it gets muddy in the trench tiers, we shouldn't really waste all that much effort sorting through trash.

edit: anyway forgot, whoever tallys the votes needs to devise some scoring system for the rankings. imo the top 3 or so types would need discrete points to differentiate, but for the middle/lower ranks we can tier them since that's where the majority of disagreements will come from.

propose:

rank 1: 6
rank 2: 5
rank 3: 4
rank 4-5: 3
rank 6-8: 2
rank 9-12: 1
rest: none

 

[Disaster Area]

1. normal
2. psychic
3. ice
4. ground
5. water
6. grass
7. electric
8. rock
9. ghost
10. flying
11. bug
=. fighting
13. dragon
14. fire
15. poison

for me

e: fire was too high up >_>

 

[CrapAtRBY]

1. Normal
2. Psychic
3. Ice
4. Ground
5. Water
6. Ghost
7. Grass
8. Electric
9. Rock
10. Flying
11. Fire
12. Bug
13. Fighting
14. Dragon
15. Poison

 

[Ortheore]

Based on Jorgen's criteria

1. Normal
2. Psychic
3. Ice
4. Ground
5. Water
6. Grass
7. Electric
8. Rock
9. Ghost
10. Flying
11. Poison
12. Dragon
13. Bug
14. Fighting
15. Fire

There's a pretty steep drop-off after #9, where these types become more of a hindrance than a boon. Flying is #10 on the back of Zapdos and Drill Peck, Poison is theoretically the worst typing, but Bel and Gengar exist and are viable. Dragon is Dnite, Bug/Fighting only really exist as coverage for Jolt, leaving Fire as the only type to truly be irrelevant in OU.

 

[Kel9901]

1. Normal
2. Psychic
3. Ice
4. Ground
5. Rock
6. Water
7. Electric
8. Grass
9. Flying
10. Ghost
11. Bug
12. Fighting
13. Fire
14. Dragon
15. Poison

Fire isn't really that bad per se, ninetales/charizard can work as an anti-jynx lead of sorts, and fire blast's 30% burn chance is useful vs physicals (though not as great vs frozen pokes/specialists)

but the only flyer that hits rock/grounds is articuno, who's 4x weak to rock slide.

Dragonite w/ surf or blizzard