np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

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With too few people as of yet taking a "No Ban" standpoint, as well as multiple people bandwagoning for bans, I guess I'll try to take a point of view that leans towards "No Ban".

While it's true Megagross has an absurd amount of physical and special bulk for such a speedy and powerful attacker, it can still be reliably revenge killed with a myriad of commonly seen OU 'mons with frequently used sets. It's base speed sitting at the 110 tier, and though such speed is respectably high, still allows him to get outsped by "slower" scarfers ("slower" meaning base 90s and below) and revenge killers such as Scarfed Heatran, Tyranitar, Excadrill, Mamoswine and the rare scarfed Gyarados & Chandelure. However, all of them can reliably revenge kill a healthy (or slightly worn down) Megagross. It is also susceptible to even faster revenge killers/priority such as scarfed Garchomp, Keldeo, Landorus-I and standard Bisharp. Yes, they can only be sent in after an ally has fainted -- ideally you would have sac'ed a non-mega or least useful 'mon and in return, you gain momentum by threatening the opposing team's presumably biggest offensive threat. Though Agility will put Megagross at a speed tier that prevents it from being revenge killed through conventional methods, it then has to forego a coverage move that will limit it's wall breaking capabilities. Granted stall teams rarely enjoy the prospect of doing a 1 for 1 trade, plenty of other 'mons such as the non-OU viable Froslass, Darmanitan, Gengar, Keldeo etc. can do the same whether it be through moves like Destiny Bond, or powerful wall breaking capabilities. Not the best comparison for Megagross, but it put things into perspective when arguments of it being able to down 1 'mon easily are raised.

Like all speedy physical attackers, Megagross fears burns and paralysis, which the OU tier is full of. Prankster Thunder Wave for example, can easily put an end to it's sweep. Mega Sableye can also easily come in, burn it and then easily recover the damage done. The list of 'mons that can reliably put a hamper onto his wall breaking/sweeping capabilities isn't that short either, and can also be fitted onto almost any kind of team easily (Thundurus, Chansey, Ferrothorn, Sableye, Slowbro, Zapdos etc.). Although it carries the means to break through such 'mons thanks to it's wide move pool, it really can't beat everything and with status infliction, really shouldn't be allowed to after it's first KO. There also seems to be a misconception in the posts above that it can break through everything due to it's move pool. The "Set of Champions" as a certain someone who frequents the NU section of the forums calls it:

Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Hammer Arm
- Grass Knot
- Agility
- Zen Headbutt
- Iron Head
- Thunder Punch

Let it be clear. Megagross DOES have wall breaking capabilities, and does it so very well. It's move pool can easily be tailored to beat it's teams most threatening threats, but as described above; reliable ways of checking it are at an abundance. Attempting to predict what moves it may carry to beat what is unnecessary when simple methods of putting a stop to it's reign of terror is easily done as said. Yes, doing so comes at a slight risk and the nigh high possibility of having to sac one of your 'mons in the process, but do remember that it is a "mega" after all. It's also not overly restricting to team building when in most situations only a 'mon or a few moves need to be replaced, and at worst, the whole team to be scrapped. But that's what happens when there are new additions to gameplay, and a good team is one that can adapt to change, no?
 
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This is a problem! As soon as a pokémon is banished we realize after cause of the same banishment of others has become completely torn and of the blow we banish them in their turn. As for Aegislash, when he was banished we realized that Méga-mawille was too strong without Aegislash to counter him ^^
Now you're trying to evade the problem at hand. Just because something broken checks/counters something broken, doesn't make both Okay for the metagame. If X is checked by Y, and Y is being suspected right now. If X proves to be broken, then we'll get around to suspecting it as well. But by Gawd, it is not anywhere near a reason (notice I didn't include the word good) to keep MegaGross in OU. So stop mentioning it, stop bringing it up, it won't sway opinions, and if it does, it's biased ill informed opinions anyways.

You actually proved my point since those two were made Ubers.
Yea, after being suspected several times. Just because something is suspected doesn't automatically make it banned.

Also, can we not start with the "Bandwagon'ing" bull? Just because we agree it should be banned does not mean we are bandwagon'ing.
 
Yea, after being suspected several times. Just because something is suspected doesn't automatically make it banned.
Which means it's ok for the same mon to get retested again and again ad nauseam if it didn't get banned but it's not ok if it's a retest to bring it down from Ubers for a mon with a very close vote like Aegislash. I see.
 
This is a problem! As soon as a pokémon is banished we realize after cause of the same banishment of others has become completely torn and of the blow we banish them in their turn. As for Aegislash, when he was banished we realized that Méga-mawille was too strong without Aegislash to counter him ^^
Actually mega mawile and aegislash had their suspects organised around the same time but the Aegislash suspect happened to go first. Some pokemon can become potential ban suspects after another is banned but this is usually due to the better powerful pokemon being removed so people just move on to the next best thing such as after mega kangaskhan was banned people went to mega lucario. This wasn't due to mega lucario being checked or countered by mega kangaskhan ( because honestly mega lucario just beats mega kangaskhan unless lucario hasn't mega evolved) it was due to lucario being the new top pokemon. This isn't to say mega metagross should be banned or mega diancie but that the idea of this thread and discussion should be to show whether mega metagross deserves to be banned or if it is balanced enough in the meta to remain, not that it is keeping other pokemon in check
 
This is a problem! As soon as a pokémon is banished we realize after cause of the same banishment of others has become completely torn and of the blow we banish them in their turn. As for Aegislash, when he was banished we realized that Méga-mawille was too strong without Aegislash to counter him ^^
Aegislash? Counter MegaMaw? Did you even play back then?

+2 252+ Atk Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Blade: 494-582 (152.4 - 179.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Plus the fact that Sucker Punch was unaffected by King's Shield made Aegislash more or less ineffective in stopping Mawile.

After Aegislash was banned, none of the wallbreakers it actually held in check were banned (Mega's Medicham, Heracross, and Gardevoir).

Slippery slope is not a valid argument whenever any ban is being discussed, especially if your examples in the past aren't examples of a slippery slope.


On the topic of Metagross, I am also leaning towards a ban, for previously mentioned reasons regarding it's power, bulk, speed, and movepool. Megagross is simply too much for OU to handle and needs to go.
 
Which means it's ok for the same mon to get retested again and again ad nauseam if it didn't get banned but it's not ok if it's a retest to bring it down from Ubers for a mon with a very close vote like Aegislash. I see.
Sigh, wrong thread First off. Second, if it was already deemed Uber it's an entirely different process. Besides, who's to say what will happen there? Regardless, this isn't the time or place, and you're wasting your efforts. This is about MegaGross, not your love for Aegislash. You can whine about it if and when we get around to retesting it. If you can supply with a good reason as to how MegaGross isn't ban worthy then so be it, otherwise, sit back and lurk.

Alright, I'll post my complete analysis, or whatever you may call it in about an hour.
 
Some food for thought calcs:
2HKO'd by Mega Metagross
Azumarill (OU Assault Vest)Meteor Mash63.8 - 75.5%guaranteed 2HKO
Azumarill (OU Belly Drum)Meteor Mash70.3 - 83.2%guaranteed 2HKO
Azumarill (OU Choice Band)Meteor Mash70.2 - 82.9%guaranteed 2HKO
Chansey (OU Support)Hammer Arm65.1 - 76.6%guaranteed 2HKO
Chansey (OU Wish Support)Hammer Arm65.1 - 76.6%guaranteed 2HKO
Chesnaught (OU Physical Tank)Zen Headbutt62.1 - 73.1%guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ferrothorn (OU Utility)Hammer Arm60.2 - 71%guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Garchomp (OU Choice Scarf)Meteor Mash62.1 - 73.3%guaranteed 2HKO
Garchomp (OU Mixed)Meteor Mash62.1 - 73.3%guaranteed 2HKO
Garchomp (OU Offensive Stealth Rock)Meteor Mash62.1 - 73.3%guaranteed 2HKO
Garchomp (OU Swords Dance)Meteor Mash62 - 73.1%guaranteed 2HKO
Gliscor (OU Physically Defensive)Meteor Mash43.2 - 50.8%3.1% chance to 2HKO
Gliscor (OU Specially Defensive)Meteor Mash50.2 - 59%guaranteed 2HKO
Gliscor (OU SubToxic)Meteor Mash44.3 - 52.2%17.6% chance to 2HKO
Gothitelle (OU Choice Specs)Meteor Mash79 - 93.2%guaranteed 2HKO
Gyarados (OU Offensive Dragon Dance)Zen Headbutt68.8 - 80.9%guaranteed 2HKO
Hippowdon (OU Mixed Wall)Grass Knot64.7 - 76.1%guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jirachi (OU Choice Scarf)Hammer Arm46.3 - 54.5%59% chance to 2HKO
Klefki (OU Dual Screens)Meteor Mash50.9 - 60.3%guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus (OU Calm Mind)Meteor Mash72.4 - 85.5%guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus (OU Rock Polish)Meteor Mash72.7 - 85.8%guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus (OU Special Attacker)Meteor Mash72.4 - 85.5%guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus-T (OU Choice Scarf)Meteor Mash47.3 - 55.7%78.5% chance to 2HKO
Landorus-T (OU Double Dance)Meteor Mash46.2 - 54.9%10.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Latias (OU Bulky Defog)Meteor Mash72.7 - 85.8%guaranteed 2HKO
Latios (OU Dual Screen Support)Meteor Mash70.3 - 83.2%guaranteed 2HKO
Manaphy (OU Tail Glow + Rain Dance)Zen Headbutt51.2 - 60.8%92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Manaphy (OU Tail Glow)Zen Headbutt51.8 - 61.4%96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mega Charizard X (OU Bulky Dragon Dance)Zen Headbutt51.6 - 61.2%guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Charizard X (OU Bulky Will-O-Wisp)Zen Headbutt47.9 - 56.8%88.3% chance to 2HKO
Mega Charizard X (OU Dragon Dance)Zen Headbutt57.5 - 68%guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Charizard Y (OU Drought Wallbreaker)Zen Headbutt77.1 - 91.2%guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Manectric (OU Special Attacker)Zen Headbutt53.7 - 63.3%guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Pinsir (OU Swords Dance)Meteor Mash67.5 - 79.7%guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Venusaur (OU Defensive)Zen Headbutt64.8 - 77.4%guaranteed 2HKO
Politoed (OU Offensive)Zen Headbutt65.3 - 77.4%guaranteed 2HKO
Politoed (OU Specially Defensive)Zen Headbutt61.9 - 73.4%guaranteed 2HKO
Raikou (OU Assault Vest)Zen Headbutt74.1 - 87.8%guaranteed 2HKO
Raikou (OU Calm Mind)Zen Headbutt72.3 - 85.7%guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Raikou (OU Choice Specs)Zen Headbutt72.3 - 85.7%guaranteed 2HKO
Rotom-W (OU Specially Defensive)Zen Headbutt58.5 - 69%guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Scizor (OU Choice Band)Hammer Arm46 - 54.2%53.1% chance to 2HKO
Scizor (OU Offensive Swords Dance)Hammer Arm56.2 - 66.1%guaranteed 2HKO
Scizor (OU Roost + 3 Attacks)Hammer Arm46 - 54.2%53.1% chance to 2HKO
Slowbro (OU Physical Wall)Grass Knot47.2 - 55.8%22.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Starmie (OU Offensive Spinner)Grass Knot69.4 - 82.4%guaranteed 2HKO
Starmie (OU Reflect Type)Grass Knot55.7 - 65.6%guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Talonflame (OU Bulk Up)Zen Headbutt69.3 - 81.8%guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Talonflame (OU Revenge Killer)Zen Headbutt83.1 - 98.3%guaranteed 2HKO
Talonflame (OU Stallbreaker)Zen Headbutt69.3 - 81.8%guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Talonflame (OU Swords Dance + Natural Gift)Zen Headbutt78 - 92.1%guaranteed 2HKO
Talonflame (OU Swords Dance)Zen Headbutt76.1 - 89.9%guaranteed 2HKO
Tangrowth (OU Assault Vest)Meteor Mash43.3 - 51.2%5.1% chance to 2HKO
Thundurus (OU Mixed Attacker)Zen Headbutt84.2 - 99.3%guaranteed 2HKO
Thundurus (OU Nasty Plot)Zen Headbutt83.6 - 98.6%guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Thundurus (OU Prankster Attacker)Zen Headbutt83.6 - 98.6%guaranteed 2HKO
Tornadus-T (OU Assault Vest)Meteor Mash77.1 - 91.2%guaranteed 2HKO

3HKO'd by Mega Metagross
Bronzong (OU Trick Room Support)Hammer Arm41.1 - 48.5%guaranteed 3HKO
Cresselia (OU Dual Screens)Meteor Mash34 - 40.1%guaranteed 3HKO
Dragonite (OU Choice Band)Meteor Mash34 - 40.2%guaranteed 3HKO
Dragonite (OU Dragon Dance)Meteor Mash34 - 40.2%guaranteed 3HKO
Garchomp (OU Tank)Meteor Mash37.8 - 44.5%guaranteed 3HKO
Gyarados (OU Bulky Dragon Dance)Zen Headbutt43.3 - 50.9%guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gyarados (OU RestTalk)Zen Headbutt38.9 - 45.8%guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jirachi (OU Paraflinch)Hammer Arm39.1 - 46%guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jirachi (OU Wishmaker)Hammer Arm38.8 - 45.7%guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Manaphy (OU Calm Mind)Zen Headbutt33.6 - 40%30.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mandibuzz (OU Utility)Meteor Mash38.5 - 45.6%guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mega Aggron (OU RestTalk)Hammer Arm29.6 - 35.1%18.4% chance to 3HKO
Mega Aggron (OU Tank)Hammer Arm29.6 - 35.1%18.4% chance to 3HKO
Mega Scizor (OU Bulky Swords Dance)Hammer Arm31.1 - 37%78.9% chance to 3HKO
Mega Scizor (OU Offensive Swords Dance)Hammer Arm41.9 - 49.4%guaranteed 3HKO
Mega Scizor (OU Roost + 3 Attacks)Hammer Arm34.4 - 40.5%guaranteed 3HKO
Mew (OU Entry Hazard Control)Meteor Mash43.3 - 51.2%guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mew (OU Stallbreaker)Meteor Mash43.3 - 51.2%guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Rotom-H (OU Defensive)Zen Headbutt42.4 - 50.3%guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Rotom-W (OU Defensive)Zen Headbutt43.8 - 51.8%guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Scizor (OU Baton Pass)Hammer Arm33.5 - 39.6%guaranteed 3HKO
Scizor (OU Bulky Swords Dance)Hammer Arm41.6 - 49.2%guaranteed 3HKO
Scizor (OU Defog)Hammer Arm32.8 - 38.9%99.7% chance to 3HKO
Slowking (OU Assault Vest)Meteor Mash32.5 - 38.4%98.2% chance to 3HKO
Suicune (OU CroCune)Grass Knot44 - 51.9%guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Tangrowth (OU Knock it Off, Mojonbo Rules Here!)Meteor Mash32.6 - 38.6%2.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Well, Metagross-Mega is very powerful, fast and it is hard to counter. BUT I don't think it is ban-worthy.

A common argument is : "Well, it has no counters". Okay, but it is a wallbreaker. The goal of a wallbreaker is to wallbreak, right ? So i think this pastebin (http://pastebin.com/thvDKcAy) cannot prove that Metagross-Mega should be ban.

Another common argument is that it restricts teambuilding. Well, i think any S Rank restricts teambuilding. For example, Keldeo which is Rank S atm popularised Starmie, Celebi. So why Metagross-Mega should be banned because of this argument ?

Don't ban
 
I'm on my phone so excuse the poor grammar or anything! (plus it seems like I can't go down to the next paragraph :[) I'm 100% going down the ban route, I actually thought even before greninja ban, that this deserves to be banned, and even at the start of oras I decided to stop playing ou because of how broken I thought it was! I realise this isn't a very good argument though, so that's not my reasoning for it. the main reason I would like it banned is simply because of how good it is, ferro, skarm and tran are all hit very hard by hammer arm. Gyara is hit by thunder punch (or hammer arm if mega), quagsire and slowbro by grass knot! It's one of the pokemon that you put on the last of your team and it hits what you need it to hit, and it'll do it very hard! Backed up by the most important speed tier in the meta and huge defences! All of this while it can't get hit by intimidate and sticky Web when it first comes in! I'm genuinely surprised that it has taken this long to suspect it. If I go on the computer later, I shall edit this post to look better than it does
 
Personally I disagree banning it. There are ways to ge around megagross such as heatran burn and megazard Y yes I agree its overpowered but if you have the right set up you can take it down quickly so I disagree.
A stab fire type move ( eg eruption or flare blitz) will do a good amount of damage also creating a team is restricted if your main was megagross

(Edit)
I would like to change my opinion i would agree with the ban why? While testing megagross down in ubers I encounter a ou team and it wiped the teams butts also doing some friendly matches with some friends (OU style on showdown) the mvp was megagross. Only to be oked by talonflame twice so I agree with the ban
 
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Mr.378

The Iron Man of Ubers
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Every time a suspect test pops up I automatically asume the mon in question will be banned and a lot of the community does so. What is even the point of a suspect test other than announce a month before that X mon is getting banned lol
It does not always work like this. BW Keldeo is a counter example to this. It was suspected twice and yielded no ban in both cases. Just because something is suspected does not mean it is going to get banned. It's just likely because if a pokemon is so good that the community is willing to see if the game is better without it existing then it has a good chance of being that good. It doesn't have to be though and that's why we suspect test. To determine both empirically and theoretically if the game is better without the suspect's existence.
 

Bluwing

icequeen
is a Tutor Alumnus
i think people are overestamating metagross versatility and power in general, the pokemon in itself struggles a lot to deal with dual cores that check it and believe it or not metagross does need some support to actually do what it does, maby except from pursuiting.

so what does make metagross so centralizing in the metagame as it is? well first off it has massive base stats which is not only good in lets say attack and speed, but it has over base 100 stats in every stat except hp, it gets a free life orb boost, it's the most bulky offense mon in the meta which makes it incredibly hard to revenge kill, think bisharp's sucker punch which can't even ko it after two rock switchins which is just insane.

yes metagross is very strong, but really that hard to wall? not really. but it's ability to stick around throughout the whole game is what makes it hard to deal with in general, because u will always struggle to kill it, this is what makes it stand out with such a big margin over other very good pokemon in the metagame. not only does it have massive stats, great ability, coverage, but it also has a nifty steel typing and a life orb boosted stab move with a 20% chance to basically just win u the game lmao.

either way i don't think people should just hop on the banwagon just for the sake off it, seriously take a look at the pokemon, and then take a look at the metagame as it is, and don't just ban something because it's it's a suspect, guess that was what i had on my heart, hasta la vista bitches :]
 
Yeah, but Keldeo is more like the exception than the rule. Let's face it, whenever a pokemon goes into Suspect test it means it will be banned 90% regardless of nitpick examples. If it happened with something like Aegi then by all means it will happen with Megagross and eventually with Sableye / Altaria as people have claimed.

I miss the old times when something was suspect tested if it overcentralizated a ton, had no actual counters, you had to carry 3 obscure checks that did nothing more for it and the pokemon itself in order to win, nothing more, nothing less, no ifs no buts no ands, and not for being "too powerful" or "too popular"
i can see sableye but not altaria. like what people are you listening to that are sayin this shit? also, instead of incessantly bitching, try getting reqs for once. in fact, i bet that if more people got reqs, instead of bitching and moaning, half of the stuff that got sent to ubers would still be here.
 

Aberforth

is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Ubers Leader
I'm currently leaning towards no ban.

Yes, it 2hkos most of the metagame assuming you have the prediction skills of a god, but it doesn't outright OHKO much. It's two stab attacks are poor in terms of base power, and are slightly inaccurate, and in order for it to revenge kill things before it's mega-evolved it needs to run bullet punch, or it will take a lot of damage. It doesn't start the match in its mega-form, and it will take a lot from most offensive mons, especially with no reliable recovery. It is also vulnerable to switching in on some of the things it checks, such as Clefable, which can do 40% or so with flamethrower. Landorus-T doesn't OHKO if it's choice scarfed, but if it's earth plate it can OHKO it quite easily, and it isn't OHKOd.

Metagross will normally get a kill every time it's used in a match. So will Bisharp. Latios is pretty likely to as well. Metagross is far less likely to sweep, considering how much is only 2hkod by it. This next part might well be flawed, but when considering suspect tests, I look at tradition. Is there something in ubers right now, which is similar to whatever is being suspected, that could be drawn for comparison. As a reference, greninja hit as hard as a sash deoxys-a did for everything but psychic type attacks. Aegislash had 150/150 offenses (equal to Rayquaza) and 50/150/150 bulk (unique, but incredibly bulky). Metagross... not so much. It has 145 base attack, with a tough claws boost on most moves (although not some good ones like earthquake), with the attacks that get the tough claws boost either being not stab, or relatively weak moves. By the standards set by other ubers, this isn't that good. For example, Rayquaza works well in ubers due to 150/150 offenses, the ability to boost attack in different ways (dd, sd), and the huge power behind most of its attacks (V-Create, Brave Birdish move, Earthquake, DracoMeteor). Metagross's best moves are 90 BP and 80 BP, and both have a 10% chance of missing. And in coverage, he gets two moves that are of BP > 99 in hammer arm and earthquake, with one of them making him a lot easier to revenge kill, and the other not getting a tough claws boost.

Now, that isn't a reason in and of itself to ban him, but it feels like we are lowering the bar in terms of what is worth banning. Metagross wont sweep, will rarely OHKO mons in OU, and has a rather pitiable movepool in comparison to other things that were broken. It has counters/checks (mew, spdef slowbro without rocks, sableye, ext). I dont really see what it is that makes this thing hard to deal with.

Looking at the portrait of an uber thing, here are the definitions of an uber:
Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.
It doesn't sweep through a significant portion of teams, it doesn't wall successfully due to lack of recovery, and it doesn't setup a situation where other pokemon can sweep easily. It means none of the criteria for being an uber, therefore he should stay in OU.

If someone can prove me wrong, I am more than willing to change my mind, but a metagross sweep will only occur if the metagross user plays very well, and brings it in in ideal conditions. Please do not use hax as an argument as for why it is an uber, yes it can cheese past some stuff by random flinches and meteor mash raising the attack of it, but it will also miss these attacks, so the hax goes both ways, and shouldn't be used as an argument.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
Coil is hella easy to get


Also, while i'm here: be wary of any check that gets 2shotted after an attack boost from the first mash.

Msab is a totally shit counter for this reason. Do you:
Will-O-Wisp into a switch to a force-out i.e. fairy
Recover and take another Meteor Mash

If you recover you risk mash boost i.e you lose. if you WoW and they switch you lack the health to switch in again.

Finally, the attack boost is worse than flinch/crit because it lets meta steamroll through weaker secondary checks too; the hax carries over.
 
Not sure if what I'm about to say has been stated, but I'll post here anyway.
Mega Metagross is a very good mon, but is very hard to check/counter without packing something specifically for dealing with it and no other purpose besides that.
Every stat with the exception of HP rises above base 100. Base 145 attack with a Tough Claws boost on most moves makes it very threatening. Base 80/150/110 Defenses are very good as well. Incredibly hard to take down, or even OHKO in most cases.
Last of the base stats being Speed, at base 110, is incredibly fast. That reaches 350 max. Ties with the Latis, Gengar, and others. If you outspeed, you most likely can't take a hit or two from this monster.
I've seen damage calcs around the thread and I believe they sum up these claims very well.
It also restricts teambuilding, because you either have to run it, or run a few mons that can deal with it. And if you lose those mons, you're screwed.
All in all, I am in favor of a ban right now, but my opinion could change with further data.
 
IMO Metagross is the best mon in OU right now. By a decent margin. However, does this mean it should be banned? Offense struggles to ohko it, but can easily revenge it with prior damage, and defensive builds can be destroyed through prediction and the right coverage move, but can also beat it through smart pivoting. Stall usually has something that completely shuts it down (cress, skarm ect.).

I'm personally on the fence of whether or not to ban it because its better than everything else, yet still fits the criteria of what I consider to be fine in OU.
 
Mega Metagross might not be the most broken Pokemon introduced to the OU in this generation, in fact it can't hold a candle to mighty Mega-Salamence,
but I think it is still a bit over the edge that can be considerd healthy for the meta.

I will use some of the old definitions for Ubers:

'A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.'

And yes it does. It is a bit like Greninja which can choose its own checks and counters at will BUT it has far more bulk to deal with making a misspredict.
Most Checks only take Meteormash and Zen Headbut well but loose to atleast one coverage move.
Slowbro, Quagsire, Hippo? Grasknot and then go ahead flooring the rest of the team.
Lando-T, Gliscor, Zapdos? Icepunch and they are screwed.
Skamory, Suicune, Mega Slow? Thunderpunch in the face and have fun facerolling the rest.
Even revenging ist difficult due to its insane bulk which makes priority fail completly and scarfers won't get the chance to hit twice.

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- even with invested 145 base and a base 100 super effective stab move adamant is required lol
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 340-400 (106.5 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO <- offensive landorus-t dies in one hit in return
Even if Megagross isnt using Icepunch it wins due to clear body pre Mega. Meteormash simply destroys anything that doesnt resist it.

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 257-304 (85.3 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO <- orb boosted 80 base prio fails to ohko... even with minimum bulk Meta
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 223-264 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- it can take aqua jet from +6 Azu...
needless to say both die instantly in return

Even the most secure check Sciz has a 20% chance to turn into fodder... and right after that the team just dies since Megagross is now at +1...

Most of the time you are playing a guessing game against it. If the Gross is right you loose one mon or it is atleast in ohko range of another mon it needs to check.
If you guess right you life in order to play the next guessing game whether it takes the hit in order to take one mon down or it just switches out to force another guessing game a few rounds later.

'A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.'

Most of the time your team is torn apart after Meta finished its sweep. Most if not all your physical walls have quite a dent in them and one mon is dead anyway.
And now the second sweeper comes in and finishes what Meta failed to do. Most Meta checks are not only used to stop it alone so you might need them to prevent another sweeper to stomp your team.
But as stated before: Usually something dies in order to scout its set and another mon takes quite a hit in order to kill it. If one of your win conditions was among them... gg.


In the end I come to the conclusion that the a metagame without Megagross is more desireable and fun than the current which is rather matchup dependant.
If I can get the time to farm the coil I will vote for ban
 
Metagross = 3 Things

So Strong
So Bulky
So Fast

I Think with Base 145 and Tough Claws Nothing can get in his Face with out taking at least 3HKO ( Using the right Moves) and He also have 105 base special attack,so Bulk Water like Slowbro cannot Resist the damage from Grass Knot

80 HP Isn't that Hight but with 150 Base Defense and 110 Base Special Defense, Only STAB or Super Effect strong Moves can 2HKO or 1HKO this Monster

110 Speed can Outspeed Strong Pokemons and Speed Tie with Latios and Latias ( And he can Also lear Pursuit ), So, Speed isn't a trouble

'' But exist Rotom and Ferrothorn and other chekers ''

Zen Headbutt 3HKO Rotom ( I Think is 2HKO if is Bulky Adamant or if Rotom is Special Defensive )

Hammer Arm is 2HKO and Fire punch have 43,8% chance to 1HKO ( Jolly nature )

I Don't have problems with him but, I think the metagame would be freer if he were banned
 

Aberforth

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Ubers Leader
Mega Metagross might not be the most broken Pokemon introduced to the OU in this generation, in fact it can't hold a candle to mighty Mega-Salamence,
but I think it is still a bit over the edge that can be considerd healthy for the meta.

I will use some of the old definitions for Ubers:

'A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.'

And yes it does. It is a bit like Greninja which can choose its own checks and counters at will BUT it has far more bulk to deal with making a misspredict.
Most Checks only take Meteormash and Zen Headbut well but loose to atleast one coverage move.
Slowbro, Quagsire, Hippo? Grasknot and then go ahead flooring the rest of the team.
Lando-T, Gliscor, Zapdos? Icepunch and they are screwed.
Skamory, Suicune, Mega Slow? Thunderpunch in the face and have fun facerolling the rest.
Even revenging ist difficult due to its insane bulk which makes priority fail completly and scarfers won't get the chance to hit twice.

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- even with invested 145 base and a base 100 super effective stab move adamant is required lol
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 340-400 (106.5 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO <- offensive landorus-t dies in one hit in return
Even if Megagross isnt using Icepunch it wins due to clear body pre Mega. Meteormash simply destroys anything that doesnt resist it.

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 257-304 (85.3 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO <- orb boosted 80 base prio fails to ohko... even with minimum bulk Meta
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 223-264 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- it can take aqua jet from +6 Azu...
needless to say both die instantly in return

Even the most secure check Sciz has a 20% chance to turn into fodder... and right after that the team just dies since Megagross is now at +1...

Most of the time you are playing a guessing game against it. If the Gross is right you loose one mon or it is atleast in ohko range of another mon it needs to check.
If you guess right you life in order to play the next guessing game whether it takes the hit in order to take one mon down or it just switches out to force another guessing game a few rounds later.

'A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.'

Most of the time your team is torn apart after Meta finished its sweep. Most if not all your physical walls have quite a dent in them and one mon is dead anyway.
And now the second sweeper comes in and finishes what Meta failed to do. Most Meta checks are not only used to stop it alone so you might need them to prevent another sweeper to stomp your team.
But as stated before: Usually something dies in order to scout its set and another mon takes quite a hit in order to kill it. If one of your win conditions was among them... gg.


In the end I come to the conclusion that the a metagame without Megagross is more desireable and fun than the current which is rather matchup dependant.
If I can get the time to farm the coil I will vote for ban
You are using the set of champions for your calcs, and claiming hax as a reason for it's best counter being fodder is wrong, it's possible to miss meteor mash anyway, and scizor sets up alongside it and likely ko's it unless the metagross is running bulk or has taken no damage before then. Even +1 hammer arm and single meteor mash after rocks doesn't KO scizor. A lot of people are exaggerating it's sweeping potential, it's moves are not as strong as it would need to be to be uber in my opinion, and there is always something that walls it. Also, easy to revenge kill. You showed lando does 83% minimum to it, which means metagross needs to come in after something else has died, mega-evolve with it's pitiful base 70 speed before mega-evolving, and take less than 17% off of an attack for it not to be revenge killed by it, and Bisharp's sucker punch requires even less damage.
 

leremyju

Banned deucer.
I'm not too convinced the metagame will be better off with mega Metagross. I'm seeing people using fairies and people using Scizor to counter them. I know you guys think theory morning is dumb, but it was somewhat expected and now Scizor gets its time to shine. Maybe more mons being used is cool, but is that actually a healthier metagame?
 

McMeghan

Dreamcatcher
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis the 5th Smogon Classic Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 14 Championis a Two-Time Past SPL Champion
Big Chungus Winner
I've been reading and discussing quite a bunch about OU and its current state as a competitive tier for a while now, and I want to share my thoughts on the matter.
As usual, I'd like to mention that what I'm gonna advance is only my personal point of view and I'm the only one bound by this view, I don't mean it as an established fact.

As usual, the OU tier loses its stability when we move to a new generation or when a lot of big changes are brought in at once (read: lot of new top tiers, usually due to the release of a new cartridge). The tier kinda turns upside down for some time. It's been the case with ORAS and Mega-Salamence/Greninja got pretty much unanimously and rigthfully banned because they were way too good at what they could do.

Greninja has been banned for a good month now, and I feel that ORAS is genuinely unstable right now (I repeat: this is only my opinion here). Not only did I feel it through my own experience on the tier (by playing and building in it), but I also noticed a lot of players shared my point of view on the matter, whether they are ladder heroes or tournament players. It seems that the general consensus is that ORAS is a tier where match-up is a huge issue, and that it's hard to avoid it, even if you do your best to adapt to it from a teambuilding point of view. There are also very few players who manage to get inherently better and more consistant (tournament-wise) in ORAS (unlike XY), which is typically a major problem you can observe when a tier is unstable.

This is very important, it's the main reason that pushed me to "launch" a suspect after some discussion with the Council members as well as many players beforehand. My opinion emerges from the principle that ORAS shouldn't stay in its current state, and that something must happen to cause some changes that will, hopefully, turn out to be steps in the right direction.

Where should we start though? After spending quite some time conversing on the matter, I reached the conclusion that Mega-Metagross is currently one of the most annoying Pokemon to deal with, from both a playing and teambuilding standpoint, and for a multitude of playstyles. Consequently, I -as well as the Council- thought that it deserved to be the first suspect as an attempt to fix the tier.

As for MMetagross itself, I'm 100% for its ban. However, I'd like to mention that I don't think Metagross is outright broken, like the previously banned Pokémons before it in XY/ORAS (think Mawile, Aegislash or Greninja). I just think it's one of the main culprit behind the match-up issue that I described earlier (and I'd like to to add that I personally think Sableye is absolutely not at Metagross level in this regard, but let's disgress).

I'd like to compare Metagross to Excadrill in BW1, not for their inherent traits as Pokémons, but rather for their influence on the tier and particulary its development. Excadrill was one of the best Pokémon in BW1. As such, everyone was rightfully prepared to face it. There were "classic" checks/counter which were clearly overused like Gliscor, Rotom-W or Skarmory, and there were more obscure checks/counters such as Bronzong or Virizion, to only name a few. Excadrill was still a top-notch Pokémon, but wasn't (in my humble opinion, I insist) as broken as the previously banned Pokémon. Yet, I was completely for its ban for the simple reason that it was totally blocking the metagame evolution because of its weight on the teambuilding (on top of everything else that was popular obviously) and its faculty to be amazing against pretty much every Offense and a good amount of Balance (and you could even argue Stall didn't like facing the Air Baloon SD Set at all).

I think MMetagross is one of the threat preventing the tier to evolve to a more stable state, and that's why I want to ban it (not for its individual qualities, albeit they're excellent, but many people have touched upon them already in the thread).

I'd also like to think that MMetagross leaving will increase the utilization of fairy-type, which should make people thinking Mega-Sableye is still a potential suspect think twice about it. In general, I'd like to see how the metagame and teambuilding will evolve once we will be freed from Metagross's heavy shackles (I hope, and I believe we can reach a more stable ORAS, a la XY, with some changes, even if I know some people don't share my opinion here).
 
You are using the set of champions for your calcs, and claiming hax as a reason for it's best counter being fodder is wrong, it's possible to miss meteor mash anyway, and scizor sets up alongside it and likely ko's it unless the metagross is running bulk or has taken no damage before then. Even +1 hammer arm and single meteor mash after rocks doesn't KO scizor. A lot of people are exaggerating it's sweeping potential, it's moves are not as strong as it would need to be to be uber in my opinion, and there is always something that walls it. Also, easy to revenge kill. You showed lando does 83% minimum to it, which means metagross needs to come in after something else has died, mega-evolve with it's pitiful base 70 speed before mega-evolving, and take less than 17% off of an attack for it not to be revenge killed by it, and Bisharp's sucker punch requires even less damage.

It is correct that the king of kings set doesn't exist in reality. But exactly this set is your opponent in the team preview and before it revealed its coverage.
If this thing lacks attacking power for beeing ubers in your opinion, what else is powerfull enough to fullfill it? Anything squishy is executet on the spot by it
and if something bulky can't take one hit from a neutral stab something went wrong.
And we are talking about Base 80-100 stab stuff that hits super effective not oneshotting it... more bulk would be mence level ( and that thing is 20/10 broken).

And every priority except sucker doesnt deal enough damage to even stitch.

Even if not plain broken it is overcentralizing to a degree that justifies a ban.
 
Just wanted to post to say that me (and a decent number of other people) do not believe Oras is shit or unstable or matchup losses or common (I dont believe I've ever lost at matchup). No disrespect to mcm just wanted to show the other side. With that said, I could see how a meta without metagross would be better, but also how it could be worse (think clefable and like lati n sd gliscor on every team)
 

Holiday

on my best behavior
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Yay more points for the contributor thing

Yeah I'm down for it to be banned. It surpresses so many things and it's very presence in the metagame makes you have to build every team around being able to beat it. For example, one of my best OU teams (semi sand offense with MGardevoir) thrives against most teams (not trying to brag or shit I'm just saying) but it's boned by MMetagross. The team is able to really work in the suspect ladder just because I don't have to worry about Mega Metagross from killing all my shit. Tbh it's kinda like Aegislash, not in the "50/50" sense, but in the fact that everything you do has to be based around being able to comfortably beat M-Metagross.
 
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