np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

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The reason Mega Metagross isn't always a threat to balance is because every balance single team HAS TO runs a "counter" to it. The fact that a singe mon makes you forced to take it into account on every single team is over centralizing. To add to that, Metagross can bypass those "counters" with its absurdly vast move pool. If you say it "only destroys offensive teams" then its limiting the metagame by making people not want to run offense because of this giant threat. It has an amazing defensive typing with 9 resistances and an immunity along with amazing bulk in 80/150/110 allow metagross to get many switch ins and get kills over and over again.
Um, every top tier threat has to be taken into account when team building. Thats the point of team building/ the game. If you build a team and you dont account for talonflame, is it ban worthy when it wrecks you? By your logic, talonflame, lopunny, and bisharp should be banned too.

Besides, the difference between metagross and other pokemon that have been banned with that copy paste argument is that mega metagrosses counters and checks arent some niche pokemon,(think umbreon to greninja, max def zapdos to salamence) they are usually pokemon that those playstyles naturally welcome to the team.

It is exactly as i said before banning mega metagross is like trying to cut off the left side of a stick. Metagross is no more centralizing than any other pokemon in the OU tier, rank A and above, and there is no reason to ban unless proven otherwise.
 
i have to say BAN
it has little to no counters in ou
its defenses are too high to in which even SE moves don't okho
110 speed+meteor mash does obscene damage to bulky attackers like lando and rotom

before people say 4MSS, i would like to say that meta does not have 4MSS. 4mss is when a pokemon needs more than 4 moves to be effective. steel+psychic+fighting covers most of the ou meta and after an attack boost meta can sweep most it outspeeds
 

AM

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The problem is this issue is actually the driving factor in some people's decision on the current suspect. Both here and in the Post Greninja Ban Metagame Thread there are multiple instances of people openly saying "I don't think Mega Metagross is broken but let's ban it anyways because it will drop the number of threats to prepare for and alleviate match up issues"

It's worth while for that Anti-Ban side to tackle this reasoning and bring up all the issues that go along with banning something you don't think is broken. (I'm definitely of the opinion that this reasoning is very flawed, very dangerous, not a good solution to match up issues, and a poor way to treat Pokemon you think aren't broken)
People will vote on issues they feel strongly about in regards to a certain suspect however they see fit. Even during the Aegislash suspect test Aldaron specifically stated that you should vote based on if the suspect in question is actually broken in within itself, not totally based on the meta-game you preferred. In the end though people chose to vote based on their own beliefs whether it be voting based on the objectivity of the suspect itself or subjective criteria established towards the meta-game one preferred. You, myself, nor anybody else should be the sole driving force in which way you vote cause it's still your choosing with the understanding you meet the requisites to vote and have a clear understanding of meta game knowledge and logic presented in your arguments from a practical level of playing the meta. My point being is that this isn't the place to discuss what would potentially go wrong in the future and speak strictly based off of theorymon while using this as the crutch of your argument. It's the M-Metagross suspect test, not the suspect test of the future and people need to understand regardless of their position on the matter that the focus should be on the former I just spoke of. If your concern is that the removal of M-Gross will create a more chaotic meta or that you prefer this meta then vote as you shall. With that being said, do not discuss "what ifs" because this isn't the place to do it. Meet the requirements to vote, present good arguments for your stance on the matter at hand, and keep it civil. That's really the basic necessities of this thread which isn't too hard to accomplish.
 
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i have to say BAN
it has little to no counters in ou
its defenses are too high to in which even SE moves don't okho
110 speed+meteor mash does obscene damage to bulky attackers like lando and rotom

before people say 4MSS, i would like to say that meta does not have 4MSS. 4mss is when a pokemon needs more than 4 moves to be effective. steel+psychic+fighting covers most of the ou meta and after an attack boost meta can sweep most it outspeeds
Lots of Pokemon have no counters. Hydreigon doesn't. Terrakion doesn't. That doesn't make them broken.

On the other hand, a Pokemon with no checks will kiss OU goodbye in a week.
 

FrocoTerra

Banned deucer.
Um, every top tier threat has to be taken into account when team building. Thats the point of team building/ the game. If you build a team and you dont account for talonflame, is it ban worthy when it wrecks you? By your logic, talonflame, lopunny, and bisharp should be banned too.

Besides, the difference between metagross and other pokemon that have been banned with that copy paste argument is that mega metagrosses counters and checks arent some niche pokemon,(think umbreon to greninja, max def zapdos to salamence) they are usually pokemon that those playstyles naturally welcome to the team.

It is exactly as i said before banning mega metagross is like trying to cut off the left side of a stick. Metagross is no more centralizing than any other pokemon in the OU tier, rank A and above, and there is no reason to ban unless proven otherwise.
It's flawed reasoning, but I'm thinking what he meant is that you have to counter it, which either involves running Mega Scizor or 2-3 Pokemon, say Slowbro, Lando and Rotom-W. The others you mentioned have various easy stops- Lopunny is stopped by offense with Talonflame/Mega Pinsir, or by balance or stall with Slowbro/Jirachi/Mew/Celebi, and everything else of course has counters. Meta's problem that makes me think it is broken (NOTE: I'm not saying that once it's banned it will free up the metagame, I think it's definitely broken) is it has no true counters outside of Scizor, as it could have coverage for every other thing in all of OU, and 2HKO every single relevant thing after rocks.
 
Lol I'm glad you had the coherency and fortitude to read the rest of the post. The point was that OU is getting stronger on average, I mean there's been an obvious power creep trend through the generations and it's only going to continue, so without being fey about it I think it's something to address and think critically about rather than being deliberately misleading
Oh, I read the rest of your post. However, it doesn't take away from how short sighted your calcs were. Just because Kanga checks MegaGross, doesn't make Kanga balanced in anyway, nor does it make MegaGross balanced. We need to get one thing straight, and this isn't directed at you as much as it is everyone else, but when we suspect a mon, we are looking at that Pokemon, and solely that pokemon. Not previous suspects. The problem with MegaGross is the fact you have to prepare for it, otherwise you've lost, and yes, there are some checks to it, much like Ninja, no one here is denying this. However, to sit here and say with a straight face, that MegaGross does not centralize the metagame, is plain wrong. We need to stop looking at Pokemon that are ban worthy as being required to be broken. Because many peoples idea of what makes something broken is different. But no one here can honestly deny that MegaGross is centralizing as all hell. THAT is unhealthy for the meta, that is what gets a lot of Pokemon suspected, and that is what ultimately decides what stays and what goes.
 
My problem with Mega Metagross is that for a bulky sweeper, without investment in bulk it can't take even neutral hits THAT well, and lack of reliable recovery means it has to rely on teammates to heal it if it gets statused or injured (And Mega Meta does not fit well on stall). In addition, having the current best Mega in the tier check you doesn't help. I don't think Mega Meta is particularly banworthy, but it's been a clean week since I played OU so I could be overlooking something.
 

MANNAT

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First of all, the metagame will actually become less healthy because a plethora of threats that it checks will become prevalent, and metagross isn't even broken. Numerous Pokemon from the top thirty in the usage stats can check metagross such as; choice band Talonflame, basically any Lando-t variant if meta isn't running ice punch and the scarf variant checks metagross anyways, defensive Rotom-W is a very shaky check that can cripple and/or beat metagross baring hax, and many others. Metagross also has a speed tier that isn't too obnoxious, and it can be checked. If it wants to use a boosting set to take out scarfed Lando-t with ice punch or Talonflame, then it has to sacrifice coverage. By choosing its set, metagross chooses what it is countered by. Metagross has huge 4MSS as a result. (Greninja didn't have 4MSS because the mixed set gave it the coverage it needed anyways) If it uses an agiligross set with dual STABs and earthquake, then Slowbro, Skarmory and Scizor are complete stops to it, but if it uses the standard set Skarmory, Scizor and Victini can stop it. (note that i didn't say all the counters for each set) It is true that Metagross has very few true counters, but there are numerous Pokemon in the meta that are already top 20-30 in usage that can check metagross. You can usually assume the Metagross set based on what team it has around it and when it is used on that specific team. If your opponent uses a metagross on a hyperoffensive team on turn 5, then it is safe to assume that it isn't an agiligross set. Personally I think that metagross isn't broken or overcentralyzing like other threats, but a good counter argument could convince me the other way around.

Edit: Added some more "meat" to the argument.
 
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The issue I have with this post is that it is misconstruing the actual playstyle distribution in this metagame. The current OU metagame is centered around balanced and bulky offense. Hyper offense is generally somewhat inconsistent and matchup-reliant, which is the case because of things like weather teams (rain/sand) and issues with certain defensive cores depending on the team. Its playstyle is very much all-or-nothing which makes it risky on top of the other things I said, and that's why the majority of OU players in SPL are opting for 'safe' balanced builds. Mega Metagross is probably the greatest threat to balanced teams of anything because it doesn't really have any good answers besides Alomomola and bulky Mega Scizor (as for your examples: Skarmory is a stall-only mon, Cofagrigus is bad, Mandibuzz loses after SR, and Celebi doesn't beat it at all). In fact, a set of Meteor Mash / Zen Headbutt / Hammer Arm / Grass Knot deals with the vast majority of potential Metagross stops all at the same time. Pokemon isn't inherently matchup-reliant and certainly not to this extent; late XY was not this matchup reliant. Matchup reliance isn't a fundamental aspect of the game; it is something that occurs due to instability and overcentralization. There's a difference between an advantage and outright making the ability to win nonexistent; the former is a healthy aspect of competitive play, while the latter is not.
I agree completely that unhealthy, overcentralized metagames facilitate matchup reliance. I also think Pokemon should never be this way. To me, matchup reliance is where matches are dictated or heavily skewed based purely upon team composition (or even an individual pokemon). This mplies that individual player skill becomes an increasingly irrelevant factor in determining match outcome as matchup reliance increases- id est given two players of comparable skill, the one with the centralized team composition (the dominant team comp (arbitrary) or dominant pokemon) has a consistent advantage. I simply don't believe M-Metagross has this effect. Every check/counter that has been proposed to handle Metagross is: 1.) already relevant in the OU meta (meaning Metagross isn't dragging some what-the-fuck pokemon out of RU solely to handle it) and 2.) multifaceted and versatile enough that each one of those pokes can be spec'd differently to be utilized on different teams and playstyles. I don't agree with the blanket statement that Skarm is "stall only" but there's no denying it kills momentum for offensively oriented teams.

Unless I see (which I haven't) a massive metagame shift, or a huge transition in certain playstyles and thought patterns to compensate for the presence of metagross, I will remain unconvinced that Metagross centralizes anything.
 

DarkNostalgia

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Lots of Pokemon have no counters. Hydreigon doesn't. Terrakion doesn't. That doesn't make them broken.

On the other hand, a Pokemon with no checks will kiss OU goodbye in a week.
But metagross does have checks. And also Gliscor and Landorus-T is a counter to Terrakion...

And to all the people saying that "metagross doesn't have checks and counters, please ban" this statement is not true. In my last post I proved that Megagross does have a few counters, and plenty of checks, and yes, just because it doesn't have counters does not mean it's completely broken. And some Pokemon in Uber have counters as well - Mega Mawile, Kyogre etc.

So let us take a look at the characteristics of an Uber Pokemon.

A Pokemon is Uber if, in a given metagame, it is a dominating force and dictates playstyles to such an extent as to be majorly centralizing.
This part is partly true for Metagross. I've seen loads of Counter Skarm, Arcanine, AV Slowbro etc. on the ladder, so it is quite obvious that Megagross is causing the meta to overcentralize.

A Pokémon is Uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort. True again. It's a bit like Greninja in the sense that it won't straight up sweep, gg no re, but whenever it comes in it gets a kill, and it's lack of counters help facilitate this.

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame. This doesn't apply entirely to Metagross, though it's extremely decent 80 / 150 / 110 bulk let's it live many hits, even super-effective ones. It's also quite hard to wear it down with hazards, since it's immune to t-spikes, resists SR, and spikes is harder to set up.
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 223-264 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 257-304 (85.3 - 100.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep. Sort of applies to Gross. Great offensive synergy with many Pokemon such as Keldeo and Manaphy and Hydreigon, getting rid of their checks and counters or denting them for a sweep.
 
I'm on the fence about Metagross right now. Mega Metagross to me, can be compared to Lando-I in BW2 OU, very hard to switch into but definitely revenge killable unless it sets up. The problem with that is you will likely need to kill or take a lot of damage on one of your mons every time Metagross comes in if you're not prepared well for it, which it can do easily due to it's impressive 80/150/110 defenses. (Noticeably fatter than skarm hello) which is something Lando-I couldn't do. The fact that Metagross has a lot of flexibility with its movesets make it a massive threat. It nukes most mons with its STAB Zen Headbutt and Meteor Mash that it can totally run any of Hammer Arm / Earthquake / Bullet Punch / Pursuit / Grass Knot / HP Fire / Thunder Punch / Ice Punch / Rock Polish in the last 2 moveslots, it obviously suffers from 4MSS to an extent but when you can dent most mons with your reliable STAB moves it isn't that much of an issue.

However, it isn't the invincible powerhouse that some people make it out to be. Slowbro, Suicune, M Scizor, Jirachi, Def Mew, Alomomola can all switch into Metagross and wear it down/cripple it through status, chip dmg + recovery etc, since Metagross has no form of recovery outside of team support then this is an effective way to wear it down and either outright kill it or get it to the point where other team members can kill it. (It will never be at 100% HP every turn in a battle so damage calcs are good in theory but are almost always incorrect due to battle conditions.) Some mons such as Lando-T, Excadrill, Scarftran/Tar/chomp, Tflame, Gyarados, Bisharp, Sableye, Diggersby, Hippo, M Houndoom + more can all either check it, revenge it, beat it depending on set, cripple it or force the Metagross user into a bad situation. Metagross is a great offensive mon no doubt, but it also a metagame staple checking many mons which would run rampant if it was banned (I don't see how banning it due to restricting teambuilding can be an argument but keeping it due to it checking multiple pokemon which would be noticeably strong(broken?) without it isn't an argument). It is a great wallbreaker but It is just another top tier pokemon. 1 or more Pokemon will ALWAYS stand out and be great, but that doesn't mean they are broken and should be banned.

While writing this I think Metagross isn't ban worthy but I can totally see both sides of the argument, none of Metagross' counters fit on offensive teams so they have to rely on checks/revenge killers which is a very unreliable way to beat something.
 
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Thugly Duckling

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This mon is even more broken than Greninja. In the Greninja suspect, we were dealing with a mon with enough power, impeccable coverage, and excellent speed, a jack of all trades; but, master of few. It was restricted to Offense teams in need of a fast and hard hitter, possible Spikes setter, or sweeper. But evidently, it had a glaring weakness to all forms of hazards, priority, and stall teams. The only way you could beat this mon was by using an Offensive team yourself, or, by using a Stall team; and regardless of how good a Balanced team was, there was absolutely no way possible it could beat a Greninja.

So now, take all the aforementioned characteristics of Greninja and eliminate the weaknesses. That's Mega-Metagross for you. Yeah, this is a mon that every playstyle struggles to face; it resists all but one form of priority (Sucker Punch), appeases all forms of entry hazards bar Spikes, has the moves, stats, and ability to bypass any check, has Offensive AND Defensive potential, and a Speed tier that is just enough for it to wreak havoc.

I play Offense, so in my experiences, this mon is extremely difficult to wear down. It's easy to check with mons such as TFlame, ScarfChomp, Mega Sharpedo, ScarfLando, and Bisharp, but it's just so easy for Mega Metagross to just switch out of its checks and come in later during the match to continue doing damage. The most difficult thing to do against Mega Metagross is switching in; I know that having switchins to nearly any threat is quite difficult to do when using Offense, and that is one of the playstyle's inherent flaws, but it's a one-choice situation whenever Metagross gets in on one of my mons with the upper hand: sack a mon, and risk being swept by one of Metagross's teammates.

I acknowledge that what I claim about Mega Metagross is only a small view in the spectrum of possible experiences facing against Mega Metagross, which depends on what playstyle one uses; but, it's easy to see that even Stall, the polar opposite of Offense, can have a difficult time against Mega Metagross. Referring to when I write, "[Mega Metagross] has the moves, stats, and ability to bypass any check[...]"; there is next to no way a team can properly prepare for Mega Metagross because each coverage move requests a different check/counter to it. Metagross typically carries Meteor Mash / Zen Headbutt / Hammer Arm, and the last slot is vacant to fix nearly any weakness a team has to a Pokemon. Hippowdon, Suicune, Quagsire, and Mega Slowbro succumb to Grass Knot; Gliscor and Landorus-T fall to Ice Punch; and, even solid checks such as Defensive Gyarados and Scizor lose to more arbitrary (but nonetheless viable) coverage moves such as Thunderpunch and Hidden Power Fire, respectively. And of course, Mega Metagross can fill up its last coverage move to effortlessly support a teammate or its team; think Pursuit to help SubCM Keldeo, Stealth Rock to provide hazards, or Substitute to avoid status for itself, all viable options. These examples are only reasoned with a single open and various moveslot; two moveslots can viably be expended at the cost of having to use teammates which cover the Pokemon that are unthreatened by Metagross's chosen coverage moves.

So essentially, this mon is way to easy to get cheesed by. You can stare down a Metagross team and conclude, that, "My opponent has Mega Metagross, my team is weak to variant X of Mega Metagross, I auto-lose this match if my opponent is using variant X of Mega Metagross". In such a situation, you can't counterplay it because it counterteams your checks to it, and as I've exclaimed, there is no way you're switching into anything it can throw at you because of how powerful and unpredictable it is – you either lose to one variant, or another. Sounds familiar, yes?

Tl; dr, Mega Metagross is Greninja 2.0, and has a viable coverage move for every check, excellent bulk, and the ability+stats to boot. It's nearly impossible to pin down with Offense because of it's appeasement to hazards, can cheese its way around Stall, and outspeeds nearly all Balance teams to do devastating damage. It effortlessly allows its user to rip holes into the opponents team for another Pokemon to sweep, and forces players of all playstyles to "pick a poison".

BAN
 

leremyju

Banned deucer.
Ok many things above that are wrong. First, Greninja had no switches on balance or offense other than P2 and Chansey. Mega Metagross has some counters, and like Greninja still depend on their set. Second, Greninja can use Protean to its defensive advantage, and it's "coverage" moves are powerful STABs. Last, Metagrosd has poor speed pre mega evolution and still speed ties with a lot of the tier like lati, Gengar, etc...
It's really hard to compare these two as Greninja is a cleaner and revenge mon while Gross can be a setup sweeper or a hole puncher

"You can stare down a Metagross team and conclude, that, "My opponent has Mega Metagross, my team is weak to variant X of Mega Metagross, I auto-lose this match if my opponent is using variant X of Mega Metagross"." And what do you mean by auto lose? Rarely does a team flat out lose to Gross because it is running a certain sets. Good players can prevent free switches and maintain lots of pressure, etc...

I'm not saying Gross isn't broken, but not for the reasons you stated
 
I'm leaning on ban because for the various reasons mentioned in this thread, it's very fast, has amazing bulk, and thanks to its coverage it's almost impossible to wall just like Greninja's case. The only issue it faces is the 4mms but til you figure what coverage it's running it might be too late.
 
The OU metagame is held in a very important and delicate balance between balanced, bulky and hyper offence in the form of Mega Metagross, Sableye, and Lopunny.

If Megagross goes, they all inevitably have to go, plus then OU is going to become fairies the tier which will result in scizor's usage spiking.

In spite of how metagame defining these three megas are, I have the same feeling toward them that I do aegislash. The metagame may be "healthier" with them gone but I earnestly prefer the one they're a part of right now. (OU)

Now if only UU would stop banning every single wall breaker that falls down into it.
 
The OU metagame is held in a very important and delicate balance between balanced, bulky and hyper offence in the form of Mega Metagross, Sableye, and Lopunny.

If Megagross goes, they all inevitably have to go, plus then OU is going to become fairies the tier which will result in scizor's usage spiking.

In spite of how metagame defining these three megas are, I have the same feeling toward them that I do aegislash. The metagame may be "healthier" with them gone but I earnestly prefer the one they're a part of right now. (OU)

Now if only UU would stop banning every single wall breaker that falls down into it.
More of this? Really? Have you not gotten that Slippery Slopes hold no substance yet? The same was said when Mega Mawile was going through her suspect, and guess what, late XY was one of the more balanced metagames we have ever had the fortune of experiencing. Besides, Sableye we will get to, and Mega Lopunny does not come anywhere near these two in comparison. So lets not make that statement. Though, I would expect a pretty decent sized rise in Diancie once this thing goes. But that is neither here nor there.
 

talah

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I think the main thing I've realised about Metagross is that Tough Claws as an ability gives the mega evolution a base stat total boost of 164 rather than 100. Here's why:

252 Atk (Jolly/Hasty) Metagross's attack = 389.

However the vast majority of its moves worth talking about also make contact, so let's multiply that by x1.33 due to Tough Claws (yes I know ability scalars exist outside the main damage equation, but it really doesn't matter if you apply it once to an inside term instead, in fact because of the additive +2 my assumption makes it slightly skewed towards having a lower than representative attack - but oh so marginally).

252 Atk (Jolly/Hasty) Metagross's attack factoring in a Tough Claws = 517

The attack base stat that is equivalent to is 209 which is the best possible base attack stat out of all pokemon. In practical terms, it's better than sticking on a Life Orb to the base 145 but without the recoil.

One of the arguments bandied about when Aegislash got banned was it was effectively running a 720 BST, well with Tough Claws in many ways Metagross is running a 764 BST (which would make it 6th total out of all pokemon). Further, out of the original 100 extra BST megas are supposed to get Metagross got most of his stuck in bulk - making it extremely hard to take out as many have mentioned on top of having the best base attack in the game.

When we add this to it's many superb innate abilities - Clear Body before mega evo to stop stat drops, a STAB that 20% of the time makes it deadlier, resisting Stealth Rock, great defensive typing, great speed - we have the perfect candidate for a ban: overcentralising (which isn't terrible of itself) but stemming from it being extremely low risk to use.

Comparing that to the other mega that has Tough Claws, ZardX, we see a situation where it isn't low risk - SR takes huge chunks of its health (up to 50% pre-evo), it being completely susceptible to intimidate, much lower bulk, lack of priority, etc.

I think that's why it should get a ban - 764 BST (effectively for any contact move, which is all of them barring EQ and Grass Knot), defensive typing and a whole host of little extra perks - to me it's quantitatively uber all over.
If we're taking abilities into effect(I know you mentioned it, but it really doesn't make it ok), then 252+ Attack Mega Mawile reaches 678 and MegaCham reaches 656 or something around that, which makes it an invalid argument. And while most of the time, all of MegaGross' moves are indeed contact, it's not ALWAYS running a Tough Claws boosted move. Always remember, a Tough Claws is a MODIFIER, just like things such as Pixilate and Aerilate, but we don't take these in account when talking about boosted stats. Let's take Mega Altaria for example-if I took the Pixilate boost on Return in account, then it would basically get 700 Attack on that Return, higher than Mega Mawile's attack stat, since it also gains STAB it didn't previously have on it. Anyway, while I'm at is, might as well get my opinion out there. As an avid MMeta player, people really like to make it sound much stronger than it actually is. I can't say it's not powerful it's not powerful as it is probably(arguably) the best Pokemon in the tier right now. That, however, doesn't mean it HAS to go. Some people are posting calcs about how much damage MegaGross does. OF COURSE it's gonna do a lot of damage, it's a WALLBREAKER, it's meant to do a lot of damage to walls. If every wallbreaker in the tier were too strong, then half the Mons in the tier would have to leave. Now, some might argue about its great defenses being way too good for a wallbreaker. While that is partially true, MMeta plays a very unique role as maybe the only wallbreaker that likes to soak up hits, which is why it doesn't hit AS HARD as others do. For example, Darmanitan(not even OU) hits much harder than Mega Meta but it doesn't have as much bulk. Same goes for M-Pinsir and generally several other Pokemon. You might argue that either have the speed tier M-Meta does. It's excellent speed tier makes its bulk look much bigger than it really it is not gonna always get hit. For example, I saw posts saying how it can tank a +6 Azumarill Aqua Jet. Thing is, unless it is already in the field when it uses Drum, it's not gonna OHKO and if it lacks BP it can't revenge kill. And it's ALWAYS gonna have something to wall it, no matter what moves it uses. For example, Scizor walls every single set, MegaBro walls any sort of set without GK(even normal Slowbro), Skarmory walls any set without Hammer Arm. It suffers from severe 4MSS and unlike Greninja who would otherwise be brought up to counter this, the set of Gunk Shot, Low Kick, Dark Pulse and Ice Beam would cover quite literally EVERYTHING but Mega Slowbro, which could easily be taken care of by another team member, any electric type for example. So, overall, my opinion is NO BAN.
 

AM

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If we're taking abilities into effect(I know you mentioned it, but it really doesn't make it ok), then 252+ Attack Mega Mawile reaches 678 and MegaCham reaches 656 or something around that, which makes it an invalid argument. And while most of the time, all of MegaGross' moves are indeed contact, it's not ALWAYS running a Tough Claws boosted move. Always remember, a Tough Claws is a MODIFIER, just like things such as Pixilate and Aerilate, but we don't take these in account when talking about boosted stats. Let's take Mega Altaria for example-if I took the Pixilate boost on Return in account, then it would basically get 700 Attack on that Return, higher than Mega Mawile's attack stat, since it also gains STAB it didn't previously have on it. Anyway, while I'm at is, might as well get my opinion out there. As an avid MMeta player, people really like to make it sound much stronger than it actually is. I can't say it's not powerful it's not powerful as it is probably(arguably) the best Pokemon in the tier right now. That, however, doesn't mean it HAS to go. Some people are posting calcs about how much damage MegaGross does. OF COURSE it's gonna do a lot of damage, it's a WALLBREAKER, it's meant to do a lot of damage to walls. If every wallbreaker in the tier were too strong, then half the Mons in the tier would have to leave. Now, some might argue about its great defenses being way too good for a wallbreaker. While that is partially true, MMeta plays a very unique role as maybe the only wallbreaker that likes to soak up hits, which is why it doesn't hit AS HARD as others do. For example, Darmanitan(not even OU) hits much harder than Mega Meta but it doesn't have as much bulk. Same goes for M-Pinsir and generally several other Pokemon. You might argue that either have the speed tier M-Meta does. It's excellent speed tier makes its bulk look much bigger than it really it is not gonna always get hit. For example, I saw posts saying how it can tank a +6 Azumarill Aqua Jet. Thing is, unless it is already in the field when it uses Drum, it's not gonna OHKO and if it lacks BP it can't revenge kill. And it's ALWAYS gonna have something to wall it, no matter what moves it uses. For example, Scizor walls every single set, MegaBro walls any sort of set without GK(even normal Slowbro), Skarmory walls any set without Hammer Arm. It suffers from severe 4MSS and unlike Greninja who would otherwise be brought up to counter this, the set of Gunk Shot, Low Kick, Dark Pulse and Ice Beam would cover quite literally EVERYTHING but Mega Slowbro, which could easily be taken care of by another team member, any electric type for example. So, overall, my opinion is NO BAN.
Pretty sure he was using a comparison to show how strong it is. Considering its most reliable sets run two contact moves that are STAB that's kind of silly to brush it off to the side and act like it's not there in the first place. Also we take into account what is actually relevant. M-Mawile's Huge Power ability was a "modifier" but it was a very important point during that suspect that shouldn't be ignored. I hope we're talking about defensive Scizor here because offensive variants definitely don't wall M-Gross at all and using a mega that is extremely fat in its defense stat to begin with that walls a plethora of threats is not really a case for M-Gross being healthy to the tier. Not going to even go into the 4MSS argument because it's been done to death in various suspects and there's no point in trying to explain to people what 4MSS actually is anymore.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
And while most of the time, all of MegaGross' moves are indeed contact, it's not ALWAYS running a Tough Claws boosted move.
Mega-Metagross most common, and unarguably most effective, set is: Meteor Mash/Zen Headbutt/Hammer Arm/Grass Knot. Ice Punch, which is also fairly common, also gets boosted by Tough Claws. Bullet Punch is also boosted by Tough Claws. Basically, the only remotely usable move that doesn't get the Tough Claws boost is Earthquake and it's almost always inferior to Hammer Arm, coverage wise.

Also, comparing Mega-Metagross to Medicham is pointless. Metagross is a lot bulkier and faster and has a way better defensive typing.
 
Mega Metagross is extremely hard for the OU metagame to handle not only because of its insane power, but also its insane bulk, making it a very bad Mega for offense teams to matchup against. Now offense inherently doesn't have a switchin to quite a few threats, but the problem with this Pokemon is that it forces offensive teams to more often than not go one for one, while not being OHKO'd by most attack that are thrown at it. Again I'll reiterate the last Pokem on with such solid bulk and so much power that came out of ORAS was sent to Ubers. It may unsettle the metagame for a while but overall its probably for the best. Please ban n_n
 

talah

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Mega-Metagross most common, and unarguably most effective, set is: Meteor Mash/Zen Headbutt/Hammer Arm/Grass Knot. Ice Punch, which is also fairly common, also gets boosted by Tough Claws. Bullet Punch is also boosted by Tough Claws. Basically, the only remotely usable move that doesn't get the Tough Claws boost is Earthquake and it's almost always inferior to Hammer Arm, coverage wise.

Also, comparing Mega-Metagross to Medicham is pointless. Metagross is a lot bulkier and faster and has a way better defensive typing.
Didn't compare it to Medicham, compared it's attack stat to that of Medicham's. I know it's only not Tough Claws boosted move is EQ, but still wanted to get it out.

Mega Metagross is extremely hard for the OU metagame to handle not only because of its insane power, but also its insane bulk, making it a very bad Mega for offense teams to matchup against. Now offense inherently doesn't have a switchin to quite a few threats, but the problem with this Pokemon is that it forces offensive teams to more often than not go one for one, while not being OHKO'd by most attack that are thrown at it. Again I'll reiterate the last Pokem on with such solid bulk and so much power that came out of ORAS was sent to Ubers. It may unsettle the metagame for a while but overall its probably for the best. Please ban n_n
Mega Lopunny is much better than MegaMeta against offense.
 
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haunter

Banned deucer.
Didn't compare it to Medicham, compared it's attack stat to that of Medicham's. I know it's only not Tough Claws boosted move is EQ, but still wanted to get it out.
Again, pointless. If you're comparing Pokémon, then compare them as a whole. Kyurem-B has higher offensive stats than Mega-Metagross, however it's an overall easier Pokémon to play around, because of its mediocre defensive typing and only base 95 Spe. What sets M-Metagross apart from any other sweeper in the current metagame is its combination of sheer power, speed and bulk.
 

Merritt

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To add to the counter list, Scarf Victini counters Mega Metagross.

0 SpA Victini Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Mega Metagross: 288-338 (95.6 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 272-324 (90.3 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 238-280 (69.7 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yes, that's zero investment. Any variant of Victini, scarf or not, checks. Even with rocks up on Victini's side it's a 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock with EQ.

I think this was brought up briefly earlier, but it's sort of ended up being glossed over in favor of Slowbro, Scizor, and Arcanine (really?) being said.

And if it doesn't run EQ Victini walls it.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 106-126 (31 - 36.9%) -- 74.1% chance to 3HKO (guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery)
 

DarkNostalgia

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Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Victini cannot manually switch into Metagross without being 2hkoed by EQ (though rare). I'd say Victini is a check.
 
also seconding Victini as a check and posting to show off a cool spread to check MGross very handily with Victini

Victini @ Leftovers
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 88 HP / 232 Def / 80 SpD / 108 Spe
Impish Nature
- V-create
- Will-O-Wisp
- Bolt Strike
- Taunt

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 88 HP / 232+ Def Victini: 174-206 (47.9 - 56.7%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
it lets me check MGross quite well along with MVoir, and the speed benchmark beats MGross pre MEvo :]. Although in this meta it might be better for me to go back to Sp.Def Victini :]. credits to foomi for the spread ty fren
 
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