Resource RU Viability Ranking: ORAS Edition

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"Sighs" I wish we could remove shitmonchan and assipom all together but new players that don't know any better sadly, keep them in.
 
"Sighs" I wish we could remove shitmonchan and assipom all together but new players that don't know any better sadly, keep them in.
Both of them are blacklisted so if you feel like discussing them don't. On a more serious note how about discussing pinsir's rank I think it should be somewhere in the B rank. SD/X-scissor/earthquake/stone edge provides good coverage and it's resistance to priority(the only one that hammers it is fletchinder's acrobatics). The ability is mostly mold breaker for unaware quagsire but the other 2 have there own merits. Hyper cutter blocks intimidate from qwilfish and hitmontop. Moxie is actually useful for picking of weakened threats and getting an attack boost for times you can't set up a SD.
 
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Punchshroom

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Pinsir seems very unimpressive to me atm. It faces direct competition from Durant as a Bug-type setup sweeper, except Durant boasts more power, more speed, and better typing. If that weren't enough, Pinsir suffers from a mediocre speed stat that it cannot boost which, when combined with its bad typing and lackluster bulk, leaves it vulnerable against offense and very easily picked off. Meanwhile, both Pinsir's STAB and its coverage, while not too shabby, aren't nearly strong enough to warrant attacking unboosted, which leaves Scarf kind of out of the question (also it's done better by Durant). Finally, there are far more effective Pokemon than Pinsir to break slower teams with; either those with immediate insane power (Emboar, Tyrantrum, Exploud) and / or those with much better coverage to dismantle bulkier teams with (Clawitzer, Eelektross).

Perhaps SD Mold Breaker can give Pinsir a wallbreaking niche over Durant, though that would be entirely dependent on how common Quagsire is on current stall, and odds are not looking up for Pinsir atm.
 
Pinsir was already a really bad pokemon in gen 5 RU because it was pretty weak and couldn't get past steel types and bulky water like Qwilfish without a lot of boosts. These problems still exist in gen 6 and common new pokes such as Mega-Lix, Golbat, Aromatisse and Alomomola are real problems to Pinsir. I guess the fact that Cress is so common is good for it as it can set up on it but apart from that it doesnt have a lot going for it. Pinsir is a bad pkmn, and even if it sets up it's easily revenge killed due to its poor speed tier and mediocre bulk.

I guess it could have a place in C or D rank, but it should drop to NU anyways so yeah...
 
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Oglemi

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Pinsir was already a really bad pokemon in gen 5 RU because it was pretty weak and couldn't get past steel types and bulky water like Qwilfish without a lot of boosts. These problems still exist in gen 6 and common new pokes such as Mega-Lix and Alomomola are real problems to Pinsir, and Moltres still is one of its best checks. I guess the fact that Cress is so common is good for it as it can set up on it but apart from that it doesnt have a lot going for it. Pinsir is a bad pkmn, and even if it sets up it's easily revenge killed due to its poor speed tier and mediocre bulk.

I guess it could have a place in C or D rank, but it should drop to NU anyways so yeah...
You must not have played with Cress in the tier in BW http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pester-ball.3475133/. Though, I'd agree that there wasn't much point in using it when Alomofish became dominant at the end.

Anyway, Pinsir faces way more problems than it did last gen, so I'm not really going to defend it, but the fact that Pinsir blows through a few of the top checks for Feraligatr (Tangrowth/Cress/Slowking/Qwilfish/MegaAboma/Rotom-C) gives it a healthy niche this gen too, at least while Gatr sticks around. Also, the comparison of Durant and Pinsir only holds up insofar as you keep Durant's accuracy in mind. If you /need/ to take out certain threats or have a secured sweep from a Bug-type perspective, Pinsir is the way to go. If you can live with a miss, or want the Steel STAB coverage, then Durant is probably better overall.
 

Nails

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If Pinsir had a SDef stat it'd have something over Durant. It does not. Not getting trapped by Magneton isn't a relevant enough niche in this meta, so it pretty much just has earthquake to break Qwilfish, at the price of not having stab Iron Head to break Rhyperior (and getting ohkoed back). SD Quick Attack without Aerialate is just gross.

Not that I think Durant makes all other physical bugs obsolete, Scyther and Escavalier are 2 pokemon that are pretty good + not outclassed. But the situations where Pinsir is better than Durant are way too rare to make it worth running. 109 Speed + SR neutral is way too good to pass up for EQ coverage.

Also Oglemi, Pinsir gets lit up by Heliolisk. And it can't switch into Leaf Storms, because it's really fragile.
 
If Pinsir had a SDef stat it'd have something over Durant. It does not. Not getting trapped by Magneton isn't a relevant enough niche in this meta, so it pretty much just has earthquake to break Qwilfish, at the price of not having stab Iron Head to break Rhyperior (and getting ohkoed back). SD Quick Attack without Aerialate is just gross.

Not that I think Durant makes all other physical bugs obsolete, Scyther and Escavalier are 2 pokemon that are pretty good + not outclassed. But the situations where Pinsir is better than Durant are way too rare to make it worth running. 109 Speed + SR neutral is way too good to pass up for EQ coverage.

Also Oglemi, Pinsir gets lit up by Heliolisk. And it can't switch into Leaf Storms, because it's really fragile.
Base 70 spdef is much better then base 48. Scyther doesn't exactly outclass it as scyther is mostly a pivot and pinsir is a wall breaker. Durant also gets lit up by heliolisk and durant can't switch into rotom mow because thunderbolt wrecks it. Escavalier is mostly a pursuit trapper and pinsir is not. Just because they have the same typing doesn't mean they fill the same role.
 
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Base 70 spdef is better then base 48. Scyther doesn't exactly outclass it as scyther is mostly a pivot and pinsir is a wall breaker. Durant also gets lit up by heliolisk and durant can't switch into rotom mow because thunderbolt wrecks it.
It's a higher stat, sure, but considering that Steel actually grants useful resistances and neutrals... it's just better.
Scyther has two SD sets that work as wallbreakers.
He never argued that Durant can take on those, he responded to Oglemi's notion that Pinsir pairs well with Gatr because it can supposedly beats Gatr's checks. Which Durant does better, due to the speed. Neither can really switch in, but Durant beats the checks better.

Pinsir's only niche really is like Mold Breaker SD/Stealth Rocks, but neither Xatu nor Quagsire is any relevant. ScarfMoxie is horrible, and Hyper cutter allows it to take on qwilfish I guess but that's it really.
 
It's a higher stat, sure, but considering that Steel actually grants useful resistances and neutrals... it's just better.
Scyther has two SD sets that work as wallbreakers.
He never argued that Durant can take on those, he responded to Oglemi's notion that Pinsir pairs well with Gatr because it can supposedly beats Gatr's checks. Which Durant does better, due to the speed. Neither can really switch in, but Durant beats the checks better.

Pinsir's only niche really is like Mold Breaker SD/Stealth Rocks, but neither Xatu nor Quagsire is any relevant. ScarfMoxie is horrible, and Hyper cutter allows it to take on qwilfish I guess but that's it really.
Even with those resistances granted by steel typing durant takes up to half from a resisted special move.
 
Even with those resistances granted by steel typing durant takes up to half from a resisted special move.
except that the same happens with Pinsir
252 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pinsir: 122-144 (45 - 53.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO

and Pinsir would flat out die to moves that would only badly wound Durant because of its extremely shallow set of resists, and additional weakness to Rock and Flying. So yeah, Pinsir's small bulk advantage is pretty much nullified by the way worse typing.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
Pinsir actually has quite a few niches.

Firstly, Quagsire is damn relevant and should stay that way; it also walls Durant pretty hard, especially if it opts for a Lum Berry. Pinsir gives so few fucks that it's not even funny.

Secondly, the standard Durant moveset is:

Hone Claws / Superpower / Iron Head / Crunch

If it drops something for X-scissor, it's walled by something. However, its crappy special bulk + only being able to hit alomo with Superpower means it has trouble breaking through Alomo. Pinsir just flat 2hitkoes and never looks back. Keep in mind that pinsir should be going with

X-scissor / Earthquake / Stone Edge / Swords Dance.

By the way;

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 289-341 (81.6 - 96.3%)

4 Atk Mega Steelix Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pinsir: 157-186 (57.9 - 68.6%)

You can't even assume rocks in that calc; if you did, there's a fair chance that Steelix took some damage (unless it's curserest, but still) and can't check you.


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 266-315 (65.5 - 77.5%)

0 SpA Aromatisse Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pinsir: 135-160 (49.8 - 59%)

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pinsir Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 364-429 (103.1 - 121.5%)

'nuff said

My main point is, Durant is a lot easier to wall, while Pinsir is nearly guaranteed a kill upon setup and may just rampage through the entire team as well. It's got problems actually setting up, true, but once it does...what the hell is stopping it from sweeping?
 
Exploud is a wallbreaker first and foremost, so it not being lightning fast isn't a completely hindrance for it considering with max Speed investment, it can outspeed every wall it needs to. Furthermore, watch how you toss around the words "frail" and "piss weak" because neither of those things describe Exploud.

252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Exploud: 255-300 (72.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can survive most powerful neutral hits at full health, that isn't frail at all. In fact, I'd say it's difficult to OHKO Exploud without using a Fighting move or an opposing wallbreaker.

The only time Exploud doesn't use Boomburst is when it's anticipating a switch to a sturdy normal resist, and even then, calling it pissweak is a ridiculous hyperbole considering with the right coverage, it can at the very least, 2HKO all of those proper resists. If it couldn't do that, you'd be correct in calling it weak.

Moltres and Pangoro leaving made stall significantly more viable, a playstyle that Exploud thrives against. In general, this meta can afford to slow down and not aim for the Jolly Pangoro benchmark, and thus you can see a significant rise in slower, tankier teams. Exploud was already a good Pokemon in and of itself well before the tier changes, but given how the meta changed to favor it, there's really little reason not to move it up. Nothing you said about Exploud is even factually true anyway; "weak" and "frail" aren't words you should use to denote this Pokemon.
Yeah, sure, i was a bit excessive when it comes to my words, but i still think Exploud is not a A Rank.
As i said before, he's rather slow, nothing too bad but too good either, making him only decent vs HO ( Often gets 1 kill and then dies from my experience )
Vs Bulky Offense, i can see him somewhat shining, because his slow speed isn't that much of a trouble here, repeat that for Balance.
Vs Stall, it needs the right predictions to beat them, else, it's going to be cockblocked vs something like Registeel.

Overall, Exploud just doesn't fit in A- to me. He may be a fearsome wallbreaker, but he's just not as effective as other mons of this Rank, i would be fine with B+ rank.
 
Just out of interest, why has Houndoom moved up yet Camerupt moved down? I would guess Mega-Rupt has moved down due to Sheer Force Gatr but surely Houndoom is destroyed by that as well.
 

Nails

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tehy

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%)

It's not a counter, man. And nothing really walls cb ant except mola, so it's not a knock on quaggy, but just sayin.

On Pinsir, after taking a second look at its movepool I'm probably not giving it enough credit. I don't think sd is the way to play it though, I'd suggest something like Rocks / Knock / X-Scissor / CC. It gets coverage on a lot of stuff, notably has a good matchup 1v1 with Cobalion (cc and volt only do 25ish), and makes it useful vs offensive teams. It's actually an effective switch into SD Mega Abomasnow

252+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsir: 108-128 (39.8 - 47.2%)
252+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsir: 60-71 (22.1 - 26.1%)
+2 252+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsir: 145-172 (53.5 - 63.4%)

252 Atk Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 246-290 (67.5 - 79.6%)

so it has that going for it. But SD Pinsir is revenge killed by anything faster than base 85 speed (or with your adamant spread, anything a bit faster than Jolly Tyrantrum, which admittedly doesn't include much. So it seems fine, I guess.) and not having priority means it's just a sitting duck. This is all theorymon though.
Just out of interest, why has Houndoom moved up yet Camerupt moved down? I would guess Mega-Rupt has moved down due to Sheer Force Gatr but surely Houndoom is destroyed by that as well.
Houndoom was moved up because it was underrated before and is really solid. The increased power of defensive teams makes it better too, since it can NP and fry pretty much everything, and it can ohko dugtrio with Sucker Punch. Idk exactly why Camerupt moved down, but I'd guess it's probably because it's very slow and doesn't take attacks as well as it would need to at that speed, and it gets skewered by hazards. Being able to tank Pangoro Knock Offs moderately well isn't a valuable niche any more either. Basically, idk.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
tehy

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%)

It's not a counter, man. And nothing really walls cb ant except mola, so it's not a knock on quaggy, but just sayin.
I mean, CB pinsir is also unwallable for the most part, but what's notable is that SD Pinsir-whose direct comparison is HC Durant-can take it down, fares much better against Mola. In fact, it's also capable of taking down Tangrowth, something else Durant can struggle with. Of course, if Durant had Earthquake for a coverage move, it'd be capable of smashing those things with X-scissor too, but it doesn't; Superpower won't touch Doublade so that's the difference maker.

The above set also looks really cool, of course
 

Nails

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I don't think you should be dropping bug stab on Durant ever, bopping psychics is so valuable. :x

Or at least it should be on most sets.
 
Durant can definitely afford to run X-Scissors over Crunch to deal better with Alomomola, as well as hitting Cresselia harder; yeah i know that Doublade will be a bitch then, but running something like Houndoom or Exploud will mitigate the issue plus spooky swords are rising next month.
 
I would also like to mention Moxie because after a kill it will be extremely difficult to stop. You trade being able to bop Quagsire and Rotom-Forms with abilities with a better ability to sweep teams thanks to it's sheer power after a swords dance. A +3 Pinsir is VERY scary to face, especially since some of the tiers best walls are smacked by it. This might also give posibilities to a scarf set but, it'll require a lot of teambuilding centered around it to make it effective. But, consider Setup sweepers are very centric anyway, it might not be so much of a negative for Scarfed Pinsir.

(If this isn't detailed enough, I apologize. I'm on my phone at the moment. ;;;)
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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Where do you think Pinsir should go? Personally I think A at least due to its solid movepool and stats.
There's no reason to rank it yet, as we're just theorymonning here with what it can do since it just dropped. I can't really see it on par with the likes of Houndoom and Slowking, but if what Nails and tehy are saying is true in practice, Pinsir seems like it will end up in the mid to low B ranks.
 

Gary

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Where do you think Pinsir should go? Personally I think A at least due to its solid movepool and stats.
No way in hell lol. Pinsir was a pretty mediocre Pokemon last gen, and while it may have some decent usefulness this generation with its Mold Breaker ability and wallbreaking potential, it's still faces heavy competition from Durant on top of having a lot of flaws in general. 85 Speed isn't terrible, but most offensive Pokemon outspeed it, and Pinsir has no priority outside of Quick Attack which is doesn't have room for. It also makes it very difficult for Pinsir to sweep offensive teams. It's not frail on the physical side, but it's special defense is pretty underwhelming and its defensive typing gives it very little set up opportunities.

Besides it literally just dropped lol, so it's way too early to rank it, especially in a rank so damn high. But from what I've heard, it looks like a solid B- Pokemon just going by how well it seems to break down common defensive cores very well. Other than that, Durant is a 100 times better.
 
Running a durant that can't touch Doublade at all is absurd imo. I would be extremely pleased to face an opponent who used that set.
True, but Doublade will likely leave soon, going by its usage in UU.

| 36 | Doublade | 6.46801% | 11605 | 2.971% | 9618 | 3.070% |
 

Lord Death Man

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Doublade probably isn't leaving and if it is that's almost two months away. I don't think the possibility is currently relevant.
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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Doublade probably isn't leaving and if it is that's almost two months away. I don't think the possibility is currently relevant.
The new usage based tiering system has monthly updates now, and if a Pokemon has over 6.7% usage in an upper tier, it will rise. That's what he was referring to. It's not completely out of the picture, but it would be a month away.
 
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