STABmons Viability Ranking

[DinaIsha]

A+ Rank ---> S Rank​

Mega Aerodactyl is a very dominant force in the current metagame. I've been thinking about nominating this for a few weeks and I really think it's time for this to happen. Mega Aerodactyl is a Pokemon I'm sure most STABmons players are seeing more and more of lately because it's just so good. Tough Claws Dragon Ascent is a godsend and has the ability to 2HKO a large majority of the tier alone. Diamond Storm is an excellent buff as well, and makes Dragon Ascent's drops in Defense not super detrimental. The most common set is probably Diamond Storm / Dragon Ascent / Roost / [Taunt / Coverage] and it fulfills the role of a fast and powerful attacker extremely well. But I think what really pushes Mega Aerodactyl into S Rank is how it has the natural ability to counter Diggersby without much investment, and that's just excellent for an offensive Pokemon. Mega Aerodactyl is dominating the metagame right now, and I think this move should be made to reflect that.

I agree with this. Quagsire can't wall Mega Aerodactyl, as it did normal Aerodactyl. Sableye takes close to 75% from DA even after a burn, Mega Venusaur is out of the question, Slowbro is 2HKOed by DA etc.,

However, Landorus-T and Aegislash wall it to a good extent. That's taken care of with coverage. Ice Fang only 3HKoes Landorus-T, but Taunt it and it can't recover.

Overall, DA's ruthlessness and Taunt's tactical advantage over walls make it an excellent wall breaker.

 

[skies]

I agree with this. Quagsire can't wall Mega Aerodactyl, as it did normal Aerodactyl. Sableye takes close to 75% from DA even after a burn, Mega Venusaur is out of the question, Slowbro is 2HKOed by DA etc.,

However, Landorus-T and Aegislash wall it to a good extent. That's taken care of with coverage. Ice Fang only 3HKoes Landorus-T, but Taunt it and it can't recover.

Overall, DA's ruthlessness and Taunt's tactical advantage over walls make it an excellent wall breaker.

Yeah, I really didn't like being walled by Aegislash either lol. I'm actually running Crunch in the last slot strictly to hit Aegislash because of this @_@. Also, Aqua Tail is a valid option. After Stealth Rock and about 10% of previous damage, Landorus-T is 2HKOed by Aqua Tail even with max investment. When not running 252/252+, Aqua Tail always 2HKOes. Where'd you run calcs for Ice Fang? It's showing me it 2HKOes regardless of investment and with no hazard support at all O.O

 

[DinaIsha]

Yeah, I really didn't like being walled by Aegislash either lol. I'm actually running Crunch in the last slot strictly to hit Aegislash because of this @_@. Also, Aqua Tail is a valid option. After Stealth Rock and about 10% of previous damage, Landorus-T is 2HKOed by Aqua Tail even with max investment. When not running 252/252+, Aqua Tail always 2HKOes. Where'd you run calcs for Ice Fang? It's showing me it 2HKOes regardless of investment and with no hazard support at all O.O

Oh my bad, I didn't have 252 and Adamant. Earthquake is better coverage seeing as how Steel Types wall both its STABs, but there are basically just Aegislash and Scizor as viable Steels. So it doesn't amount to much.

Therefore Aqua Tail does seem to be the best choice for coverage. Aegislash can be easily worn down because it has no recovery.

It can run Defog/SR effectively too, seeing as how it forces a lot of switches, but Taunt is invaluable.

 

[EV]

I'm on the S-train for Mega Aerodactyl.

Any other updates we need? Where have things moved since Keldeo's ban?

 

[canno]

I think what make Aerodactyl just so goddamn good is that it's effective vs both Stall and Offense. Stall gets handled by its decently strong attacks and Taunt / potentially Roost while Offense has trouble dealing with it thanks to its insane speed and resistance to Normal, along with it hitting really hard (and having ok bulk).

Also if Aegislash is a problem (and Steels in general) run EQ, not Crunch or Aqua Tail. EQ doesn't make contact, so it doesn't activate King's Shield from any of them. Honestly though it would probably only be for Aegislash - most of the other common Steel-types (Skarm, Scizor-(M), Heatran, Ferro (haven't seen him in a while though) are hit neutrally your STABs. Hitting Magenzone is a nice bonus though.

The only issue I have right now is that there's 5 S-Rank Pokemon at the moment (6 w/Mega Aero). I'm not sure what can be done to solve this, but at the moment it feels a bit bloated (I think this issue had been brought up back in XY but meh)

 

[Pagoose]

Pokemon that should rise:

A+ -> S
Another natural diggersby check like aerodactyl, and an amazing sweeper with shift gear and gear grind. I have always thought this is the pokemon you need to prepare for the most in the entire metagame, even moreso than diggersby. After 1 shift gear it kills everything except a small selection of fire types and water types. It also walls like half the game with its amazing defenses.

A- -> A
Choice band azumarill is really good right now. It gets stronger priority moves in water shrukian and extremespeed, as well as crabhammer. It destroys stall that doesn't have mega venusaur, as it can 2hko even skarmory and mega scizor with crabhammer. Really good win con against all styles with its powerful attacks.

A- -> A
Gyarados is a really good sweeper and can run some cool sets, from defesive dd to offensive dd to even the sweet defensive sets with thunder wave.

B+ -> A-
Defensive garchomp has become really common in ou for good reason, and it works even better in stabmons. A really cool check to diggersby, as it is only 3hko'd by extremespeed and forces diggersby to practically kill itself. It can also setup spikes, weaken some defensive pokes with toxic and check pokemon like heatran.

B -> A
Latios should be higher than B. It is very powerful with draco meteor and psystrike, and it can run hidden power fire or earthquake to lure some very good pokemon like scizor and heatran. It also is one of the premier defogers, can lunar dance to great effect, and can even run calm mind sets which run through stall, 2hkoing chansey after a calm mind.

B- -> A
Gengar is another great diggersby check, as it is immune to both of its stabs. Life orb gengar is really great to beat stall and can hole break very effectively against offense and balance.

C+ -> B+
Analytic starmie is extremely powerful with life orb and it can spin too. I have found defensive sets to be underwelming, but offensive sets are great.

Pokemon that should drop:

S -> A+
Sableye just isn't as good as I am told it was in early stabmons. Setup is less common, and sableye's lack of bulk means it kinda just dies to neutral attacks from things it's supposed to check. All it really does now it dark void stuff and annoy things with parting shot, which really isn't S rank worthy.

A -> A-
Quagsire isn't that great of a defensive pokemon imo. It gets 2hko'd by PB diggersby and several other pokemon that it should be walling such as band talonflame and life orb terrakion. Just lacks the bulk to be all that effective.

C+ -> Unranked
Completely outclassed by diggersby

C -> Unranked
Outclassed by scolipede

C -> Unranked
Outclassed by a bunch of other fire mons both offensively and defensively, even though it does get normal moves.

D -> Unranked
Doesn't even have the niche of beating landorus when compared to chansey because landorus doesn't run knock off that much

 

[Adonzo]

Guts Flareon has approximately 0 safe switch-ins, as pretty much the only mons that can survive a V-create + Extreme Speed combo are Heatran, Diancie (non-Mega), Gyarados (non-Mega), MegaZardX, Lando-T, Quag, and... Kabutops? Why is that even ranked? Heatran is nailed by Superpower, and the rest are ALL severely maimed and outright KO'd with a small amount of priors.

(all calcs done using the bulkiest spreads found here)

252+ Atk Guts Flareon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 410-484 (106.2 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Guts Flareon V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 110-130 (37 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Guts Flareon Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 197-232 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Flareon Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 131-155 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Guts Flareon V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Guts Flareon Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 117-138 (29.6 - 35%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Guts Flareon V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 149-176 (37.8 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Guts Flareon Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 89-105 (22.5 - 26.6%) -- 22.7% chance to 4HKO (this looks fairly safe, but it's one time only, and Superpower OHKO's future switch-ins)

252+ Atk Guts Flareon V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Flareon Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 50-59 (16.4 - 19.4%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Guts Flareon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 249-294 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Guts Flareon Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 74-88 (19.3 - 23%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Flareon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Flareon Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 115-136 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Flareon's V-create is the single strongest non-choiced attack in the meta and backed up by strong priority, its the strongest non-Normal-type FakeSpeeder, and a great status-absorber. It has myriad flaws, slow, frail, getting worn down by Toxic Orb and SR and having few switch-ins opportunities itself outside of status-absorbing, but all in all C- seems pretty appropriate.

As to Ninjask, all Baton Passing roles are outclassed by Scolipede, but there had been some discussion on Choice Band, thanks to its high Speed, Infiltrator, and strong moves/coverage in Megahorn, Brave Bird / Dragon Ascent, and Precipice Blades. Whether this is deserving a rank is unclear.

 

[Pagoose]

Guts Flareon has approximately 0 safe switch-ins, as pretty much the only mons that can survive a V-create + Extreme Speed combo are Heatran, Diancie (non-Mega), Gyarados (non-Mega), MegaZardX, Lando-T, Quag, and... Kabutops? Why is that even ranked? Heatran is nailed by Superpower, and the rest are ALL severely maimed and outright KO'd with a small amount of priors.

(all calcs done using the bulkiest spreads found here)

252+ Atk Guts Flareon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 410-484 (106.2 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Guts Flareon V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 110-130 (37 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Guts Flareon Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 197-232 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Flareon Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 131-155 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Guts Flareon V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Guts Flareon Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 117-138 (29.6 - 35%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Guts Flareon V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 149-176 (37.8 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Guts Flareon Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 89-105 (22.5 - 26.6%) -- 22.7% chance to 4HKO (this looks fairly safe, but it's one time only, and Superpower OHKO's future switch-ins)

252+ Atk Guts Flareon V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Flareon Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 50-59 (16.4 - 19.4%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Guts Flareon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 249-294 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Guts Flareon Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 74-88 (19.3 - 23%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Flareon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Flareon Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 115-136 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Flareon's V-create is the single strongest non-choiced attack in the meta and backed up by strong priority, its the strongest non-Normal-type FakeSpeeder, and a great status-absorber. It has myriad flaws, slow, frail, getting worn down by Toxic Orb and SR and having few switch-ins opportunities itself outside of status-absorbing, but all in all C- seems pretty appropriate.

As to Ninjask, all Baton Passing roles are outclassed by Scolipede, but there had been some discussion on Choice Band, thanks to its high Speed, Infiltrator, and strong moves/coverage in Megahorn, Brave Bird / Dragon Ascent, and Precipice Blades. Whether this is deserving a rank is unclear.

It may be powerful, it is slow, has very little bulk and gets worn down very quickly. I would much rather use entei than flareon, hell, I would rather use darmanitan. Maybe D Rank then.

Choice band ninjask is terrible lol. Being fast means nothing when you have 90 attack and 0 bulk, no one would use that.

 

[EV]

Tbf Ninjask was popular for a second since it could lure and bop Heatran with EQ (now PB). I think Infiltrator is its best niche to bypass subs with its high Speed. Leads can lay Spikes and Sticky Web as well. Maybe it should go back to D, but it does have a purpose outside Baton Passing stats.

 

[Kit Kasai]

In my opinion Flareon / Darmanitan / etc whatever other fire physical fire types are largely outclassed by Zard-X, because Zard has access to so many things they don't, namely speed, better typing (offensive and defensive), recovery, two forms of boosting, and better coverage.

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 366-432 (96 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Flareon V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 414-487 (108.6 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Slightly stronger but it'll get worn down really quickly using guts. I guess extreme speed gives it a niche, so D rank sounds fine.

 

[Lucchini]

Chansey and Blissey are good, yes, and Chansey is usually better than Blissey, but Imposter is not available for them. Perhaps you mean Transform? Transform Chansey is really good, but it's halted by powerful attackers and / or Substitute. After you've been playing for a bit, Chansey just doesn't become as overwhelming as you'd naturally assume. There's no ban on this combination because it can be stopped; however, it is an excellent strategy.

Welcome to STABmons n_n.

I was actually simultaneously checking out the STABmons metagame and the Balanced Hackmons metagame, sorry about that. That's where the Imposter question came from, but I guess Transform is rather similar, except you're not the one who gets to choose whom to transform into and it takes up a turn, also potentially resulting in a bad matchup.

The BH meta apparently sets everything to 252 EVs - is there no such need here with the power creep that comes with so much offensive power rising? Not sure how effective stall is outside of Sableye with his Prankster, purely theorymonning.

 

[Pagoose]

I was actually simultaneously checking out the STABmons metagame and the Balanced Hackmons metagame, sorry about that. That's where the Imposter question came from, but I guess Transform is rather similar, except you're not the one who gets to choose whom to transform into and it takes up a turn, also potentially resulting in a bad matchup.

The BH meta apparently sets everything to 252 EVs - is there no such need here with the power creep that comes with so much offensive power rising? Not sure how effective stall is outside of Sableye with his Prankster, purely theorymonning.

Actually BH uses normal ev rules now.

 

[DinaIsha]

Not sure how effective stall is outside of Sableye with his Prankster, purely theorymonning.

Pretty much all the good players in STABmons have at least 2-3 walls and/or pivots in their team. So that must tell you something.

Setup is kept in check by Fake Speeding to a good extent. Sableye is also a huge cornerstone of the meta.

In theory, a Gardevoir setting up Geomancy should be terrifying, since it has all the coverage to beat walls and Psystrike to nail Chansey.

BUT, anyone who has played the meta know that a Fake Out and Extreme Speed from Diggersby will kill it easily. And if your opponent manages to switch in while you were setting up you're just wasting a mon.

And what can Sableye do? Put you to sleep with Dark Void and Parting Shot out to a revenge killer, precisely helping to KO you without you even moving.

Then again, aptly timed setup can mean game. Things like Mega Scizor can KO on resisted hits. For instance, at +2 Technician Pin Missile (5 Hit) KOes a Magnezone, rendering walls useless.

Visit the main thread to discuss details like this. This is the viability rankings thread.

 

[DarkeKnight]

Pokemon that should rise:

A+ -> S
Another natural diggersby check like aerodactyl, and an amazing sweeper with shift gear and gear grind. I have always thought this is the pokemon you need to prepare for the most in the entire metagame, even moreso than diggersby. After 1 shift gear it kills everything except a small selection of fire types and water types. It also walls like half the game with its amazing defenses.

Agreed. This thing is amazing. Shift Gear/Gear Grind/Pin Missile takes care of so much. If you get to +2, there isn't a lot that can stop you.

 

[ellipse]

A+ -> S
Another natural diggersby check like aerodactyl, and an amazing sweeper with shift gear and gear grind. I have always thought this is the pokemon you need to prepare for the most in the entire metagame, even moreso than diggersby. After 1 shift gear it kills everything except a small selection of fire types and water types. It also walls like half the game with its amazing defenses.

A- -> A+
Choice band azumarill is really good right now. It gets stronger priority moves in water shrukian and extremespeed, as well as crabhammer. It destroys stall that doesn't have mega venusaur, as it can 2hko even skarmory and mega scizor with crabhammer. Really good win con against all styles with its powerful attacks.

A- -> A
Gyarados is a really good sweeper and can run some cool sets, from defesive dd to offensive dd to even the sweet defensive sets with thunder wave.

B+ -> A-
Defensive garchomp has become really common in ou for good reason, and it works even better in stabmons. A really cool check to diggersby, as it is only 3hko'd by extremespeed and forces diggersby to practically kill itself. It can also setup spikes, weaken some defensive pokes with toxic and check pokemon like heatran.

B -> A
Latios should be higher than B. It is very powerful with draco meteor and psystrike, and it can run hidden power fire or earthquake to lure some very good pokemon like scizor and heatran. It also is one of the premier defogers, can lunar dance to great effect, and can even run calm mind sets which run through stall, 2hkoing chansey after a calm mind.

B- -> A
Gengar is another great diggersby check, as it is immune to both of its stabs. Life orb gengar is really great to beat stall and can hole break very effectively against offense and balance.

C+ -> B+
Analytic starmie is extremely powerful with life orb and it can spin too. I have found defensive sets to be underwelming, but offensive sets are great.

Pokemon that should drop:

Sableye just isn't as good as I am told it was in early stabmons. Setup is less common, and sableye's lack of bulk means it kinda just dies to neutral attacks from things it's supposed to check. All it really does now it dark void stuff and annoy things with parting shot, which really isn't S rank worthy.

A -> A-
Quagsire isn't that great of a defensive pokemon imo. It gets 2hko'd by PB diggersby and several other pokemon that it should be walling such as band talonflame and life orb terrakion. Just lacks the bulk to be all that effective.

Completely outclassed by diggersby

Outclassed by scolipede

Outclassed by a bunch of other fire mons both offensively and defensively, even though it does get normal moves.

Doesn't even have the niche of beating landorus when compared to chansey because landorus doesn't run knock off that much

So for a very long time these rankings have been extremely inflated, and for the most of the raises that you suggest, they're for mostly undervalued mons that seem like their roles are larger than they actually are. I don't have too much problem with Azu to A (Lando-t is just too common for it not to be) and Scizor-mega to S (Debatable move, but it's top 5 things too worry about in teambuilding so I agree), but other things on your list have fairly accurate rankings. I've been using Chomp more and more frequently as my stealth rocker, but it definitely isn't one of the PREMIER pokemon in the tier, just something that can perform its role efficiently and well. The same goes for Latios, Gyarados, and Gengar, which both seem to not see enough play in the meta, but aren't particularly as threatening or effective as other options in the tier.

• Latios, despite everyone forgetting the power behind a Draco Meteor suddenly in this tier, suffers from the Likes of Chansey, Aegislash, and Tyranitar running around in the tier, plus a large amount of physical priority that can take advantage of it or something like Togekiss which turns it into setup fodder.
• Gengar lost its one shot at being A-rank when Diggs got K-off and people increased their scizor usage. Yes it can beat stall with a variety of sets, but it also struggles against balance and bulky offense, another increasingly popular playstyle
• Gyarados is very, very good, but not good enough to get into full A sporting a "Thundurus gets free turns on me sticker" sticker as well as a stealth rock weakness that hinders its role as a pivot.

With Starmie I can understand it being better than C+, but I disagree with moving it a full letter upwards.
On the other side of your list, while Sableye MAY not be the monster it used to be, Quagsire is still very well and alive within the tier. Quagsire might not wall brute force mons, such as TFlame and Terrak, but it stops the likes of Scizor, Aegislash, any stray BD or SS sets, and other physicals that aren't quite as strong as those you mentioned above (eq diggs tho). In terms of the other pokes suggested, I don't think we should move things with any niche out of the meta, just make them live in low C and D to show they have some possible fulfillable roles in the tier, yet may need much more support or specific situations to function. I.E. Cincinno can run a (extremely poor) BD set that can beat quagsire and Blissey does have the eviolite niche, hence D rank is more appropriate.

 

[EV]

Please, please don't use Bug unless you're running Choice Band regular Scizor or you're runnnig 4 attacks Mega Scizor (a bad set in its own right however). Why Pin Missile is bad: You get donked by Skarmory and Heatran namely, who both resist it X4. You are liable to lose against bulky Zapdos, Rotom-H (seriously use this more), Aegislash, Charizard, and Magnezone. Don't give those guys free switch-ins. Sure you might be able to KO at +2, but how are you getting to +2 without running Swords Dance? And if you're running Swords Dance how are you outspeeding? You need to run Knock Off or Superpower (or both) with Shift Gear. If you want Roost then I'd recommend Knock Off.

In terms of moving to S, I'm not convinced. I don't think it's a metagame defining threat right now. I'm not flat-out saying no, but I need more than what I'm seeing so far.

Until setup outright dies, I don't think this should ever leave S. The bugger can beat stall and offense with minimal tweaks to its sets. How is that not metagame defining? Sure, it's a bit stale and easy to predict (until Mega shows up) but Sableye is one of those interchangeable parts like Thundurus, Landorus-T and Diggersby that can go on any team.

 

[skies]

I'm not supporting the Mega Scizor move up either. Sure, it's a very powerful Pokemon, but it has more flaws than you're letting on. Firstly, with Heatran and Landorus-T on every other team, Mega Scizor is going to have a hard time setting up because both of these Pokemon force it out. Echoing Eevee, Pin Missile is just bad because Quagsire is honestly not relevant enough nowadays to make it worthwhile. Shift Gear / Gear Grind / Superpower / [Knock Off / Roost] is what the standard set should be, but no matter what you're going to have a check for it. Superpower and Knock Off is impressive, but Scizor is forced out too easily by the many Fire-types in the tier. I don't feel it's a metagame defining Pokemon, so I'd like to see it stay in A+.

 

[ellipse]

Landorus-T does NOT force m-Scizor out, and most fire types outside of Heatran or Arcanine can barely take a +1 gear grind of:

• 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 234-276 (61.2 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 4 Atk Landorus-T Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 135-159 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• +1 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 274-324 (92.2 - 109%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO
  
• +1 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Entei: 254-300 (68.4 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 177-208 (51.6 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  
• +1 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 296-348 (99.6 - 117.1%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

Also, since it can beat a vast majority of the tier between just shift gearing into gear grind alone, it is distinct in being one of the few sweepers that have the leniency for two coverage slots, it has the ability to, without losing any of its ability to place pressure on the opponent, run a combination of pin missile, superpower, roost and baton pass. What's important to note also that it isn't like Togekiss and hasn't been marginalized into a sweeping role, and can still be a very productive team member just being used as a bulky pivot to serve as a normal check and being generally bulky.

 

[Pagoose]

So for a very long time these rankings have been extremely inflated, and for the most of the raises that you suggest, they're for mostly undervalued mons that seem like their roles are larger than they actually are. I don't have too much problem with Azu to A (Lando-t is just too common for it not to be) and Scizor-mega to S (Debatable move, but it's top 5 things too worry about in teambuilding so I agree), but other things on your list have fairly accurate rankings. I've been using Chomp more and more frequently as my stealth rocker, but it definitely isn't one of the PREMIER pokemon in the tier, just something that can perform its role efficiently and well. The same goes for Latios, Gyarados, and Gengar, which both seem to not see enough play in the meta, but aren't particularly as threatening or effective as other options in the tier.

• Latios, despite everyone forgetting the power behind a Draco Meteor suddenly in this tier, suffers from the Likes of Chansey, Aegislash, and Tyranitar running around in the tier, plus a large amount of physical priority that can take advantage of it or something like Togekiss which turns it into setup fodder.
• Gengar lost its one shot at being A-rank when Diggs got K-off and people increased their scizor usage. Yes it can beat stall with a variety of sets, but it also struggles against balance and bulky offense, another increasingly popular playstyle
• Gyarados is very, very good, but not good enough to get into full A sporting a "Thundurus gets free turns on me sticker" sticker as well as a stealth rock weakness that hinders its role as a pivot.

With Starmie I can understand it being better than C+, but I disagree with moving it a full letter upwards.
On the other side of your list, while Sableye MAY not be the monster it used to be, Quagsire is still very well and alive within the tier. Quagsire might not wall brute force mons, such as TFlame and Terrak, but it stops the likes of Scizor, Aegislash, any stray BD or SS sets, and other physicals that aren't quite as strong as those you mentioned above (eq diggs tho). In terms of the other pokes suggested, I don't think we should move things with any niche out of the meta, just make them live in low C and D to show they have some possible fulfillable roles in the tier, yet may need much more support or specific situations to function. I.E. Cincinno can run a (extremely poor) BD set that can beat quagsire and Blissey does have the eviolite niche, hence D rank is more appropriate.

I can concede on garchomp and gyarados, but latios and gengar do need to move up. Latios in B is a travesty. There might be quite a lot of power creep in stabmons, but latios still outspeeds most pokemon in the game with 110 speed, has the coverage to hit almost every pokemon and is a very effective lure and also extremely valuable defog and even lunar dance support. It may lose a valuable niche with the keldeo ban but that doesn't lower its viability all that much. Gengar is also very very good, and while it isn't the surefire check to diggersby it used to be, but it is still excellent. It is also probably the best wallbreaker in the entire game with its life orb set, 2hkoing everything except chansey, which gets taunted and can do nothing back. It actually has an extremely good match-up against bulky offense and balance, because it can check or counter lots of pokemon and get kills from there. It basically plays exactly the same as in ou, except it also checks the best pokemon in the tier. I will concede the points on garchomp and gyarados, although I think the fact they can run some underrated defensive sets along with good offensive sets, gyarados particularly, should push them up a rank. Cincinno is seriously outclassed, if you want a belly drummer that can beat quagsire run sawsbuck, it doesn't deserve a ranking. Blissey does have the extremely tiny niche of not relying on eviolite, but what does it actually switch in on that chansey wouldn't be able to wall too. Every knock off user I can think off beats blissey anyway.

Please, please don't use Bug unless you're running Choice Band regular Scizor or you're runnnig 4 attacks Mega Scizor (a bad set in its own right however). Why Pin Missile is bad: You get donked by Skarmory and Heatran namely, who both resist it X4. You are liable to lose against bulky Zapdos, Rotom-H (seriously use this more), Aegislash, Charizard, and Magnezone. Don't give those guys free switch-ins. Sure you might be able to KO at +2, but how are you getting to +2 without running Swords Dance? And if you're running Swords Dance how are you outspeeding? You need to run Knock Off or Superpower (or both) with Shift Gear. If you want Roost then I'd recommend Knock Off.

In terms of moving to S, I'm not convinced. I don't think it's a metagame defining threat right now. I'm not flat-out saying no, but I need more than what I'm seeing so far.

I'm not supporting the Mega Scizor move up either. Sure, it's a very powerful Pokemon, but it has more flaws than you're letting on. Firstly, with Heatran and Landorus-T on every other team, Mega Scizor is going to have a hard time setting up because both of these Pokemon force it out. Echoing Eevee, Pin Missile is just bad because Quagsire is honestly not relevant enough nowadays to make it worthwhile. Shift Gear / Gear Grind / Superpower / [Knock Off / Roost] is what the standard set should be, but no matter what you're going to have a check for it. Superpower and Knock Off is impressive, but Scizor is forced out too easily by the many Fire-types in the tier. I don't feel it's a metagame defining Pokemon, so I'd like to see it stay in A+.

I completely agree that Pin Missile is bad. Superpower is the best coverage move to run (imo) as it kills Heatran at +1 and is the strongest neutral attack against steel resistances it can run. Also, Mega Scizor uses Landorus-T as setup fodder. It also 2hkos with gear grind at neutral, so after a shift gear and intimidate it just 2hkos, while Lando does around 25%-40% depending on Scizor spread and rolls. It also can overpower many fire types you would think would check it, especially after stealth rocks or with some prior damage.

Scizor Ohking fire types

+1 252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 218-257 (73.4 - 86.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 274-324 (92.2 - 109%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 296-348 (99.6 - 117.1%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 296-350 (101 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Entei: 272-321 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This leaves only the bulkiest of waters, zapdos, and aegislash. Most bulky waters have to hope for a scald burn in 2 turns to beat you, and if you have pin missile, which I don't recommend but is an option that must be considered, then they only have 1 turn. Aegislash also can't beat you anyway unless it has hp fire or crits lol) I really think mega scizor is one of the best pokemon in stabmons. When you're teambuilding, mega scizor is one of the first pokemon you think of, right up there with diggersby and mega aerodactyl.

 

[DinaIsha]

I agree with Ellipse. In fact, Landorus-T is one of the walls Scizor can actually setup on. You Shift Gear and Roost off damage until they realize they're screwed. At +2, Scizor is devastating.

You have realize Gear Grind is basically as powerful as Giga Impact, but with no drawbacks other than accuracy.

100 BP + Technician (50 BP) + STAB (75 BP) = 225 BP.

Every Shift Gear boost only makes it that much more powerful.

Skarmory has fallen far our of usage, so Heatran is basically it's only dedicated counter.

If you want to bop Heatran, run Superpower, but be informed that if you do this, Quagsire and Rotom-W walk all over you. It all comes down to which of Scizor's checks you can take out with your teammates.

 

[EV]

I split S into S- and S+. Thoughts on what goes in these?

Proposals:

A+ -> S-

A- -> A

B -> A-

B- -> B+

C+ -> B

C+ -> D

C -> D

C -> C-

S -> S+

S -> S-

S -> S+

S -> S+

S -> S-

A+ -> S-

A -> A+

A -> A-

B+ -> A-

B -> C+

B -> B-

B- -> B+

B- -> B

C -> C+

C -> C+

C -> D

 

[skies]

Don't really like splitting it into S- and S, but I guess it's alright. I think we have a rank inflation by doing so. I really don't think Sableye is S, only A+ anymore. In the past 20 or so matches I've had Sableye just hasn't felt like an S Rank Pokemon. It's excellent, and it would be a top tier A+, but S seems tricky. The other S Rank Pokemon are better than it, and I don't really feel it's on par. This is mainly due to the fact of how easy it is to deal with Sableye. Sableye's dead weight against stall, which is getting more and more common, because it can't do anything but Dark Void. It can Taunt, you say? Well, then it's got too much in its movepool. A Dark Void / Recover / Parting Shot is what's the standard for Sableye, but the last slot make or breaks Sableye versus various matchups. Knock Off hurts stall and somewhat offense, Foul Play is more important for offense, Will-O-Wisp is just great versus offense, and then you have Taunt for stall. However, it can only run one, and that severely limits its actual play. Being so matchup reliant and having such a huge case of 4MSS is enough for me to think it should drop. On the flipside, it's very good at stopping things and generally being very obnoxious due to Parting Shot. I'd support dropping Sableye.

Most people agreed with Mega Aerodactyl moving to S Rank as well, and I'm fairly sure people supported M-Scizor moving to S as well (though I don't support this movement), so if we do this then we have all of six S Rank Pokemon. This is alright, because we have 6 defining Pokemon and it should be able to reflect that. My ideal S Rank would be Aerodactyl-Mega / Diggersby / Heatran / Landorus-T / Thundurus-I, and //maybe// M-Scizor, since a lot of people agreed with that move. That's 5, or 6, and it's only the same, or one more, than what we have now, which would be completely fine in my opinion. S- and S+ Rank just seems not worthwhile, because if we move up and do this then we'll have 7 S Rank Pokemon total, and that's more than is in A+ Rank, that is very sketchy to me and so I do not support splitting the ranks. There was a large debate in the OU thread about this, and it came to the conclusion of not doing so because of inflation and not reflecting the ranks accurately, and I believe the same holds true here.

tl;dr: M-Aero -> S, don't split S Rank into S- / S+, Sableye -> A+

 

[EV]

Don't really like splitting it into S- and S, but I guess it's alright. I think we have a rank inflation by doing so. I really don't think Sableye is S, only A+ anymore. In the past 20 or so matches I've had Sableye just hasn't felt like an S Rank Pokemon. It's excellent, and it would be a top tier A+, but S seems tricky. The other S Rank Pokemon are better than it, and I don't really feel it's on par. This is mainly due to the fact of how easy it is to deal with Sableye. Sableye's dead weight against stall, which is getting more and more common, because it can't do anything but Dark Void. It can Taunt, you say? Well, then it's got too much in its movepool. A Dark Void / Recover / Parting Shot is what's the standard for Sableye, but the last slot make or breaks Sableye versus various matchups. Knock Off hurts stall and somewhat offense, Foul Play is more important for offense, Will-O-Wisp is just great versus offense, and then you have Taunt for stall. However, it can only run one, and that severely limits its actual play. Being so matchup reliant and having such a huge case of 4MSS is enough for me to think it should drop. On the flipside, it's very good at stopping things and generally being very obnoxious due to Parting Shot. I'd support dropping Sableye.

Sableye's dead weight against stall

Do you know what a stallbreaker is? It's Sableye. I don't get what you don't get. Sableye doesn't need to run Dark Void. To me that's dead weight. It's sooo predictable. And so is Parting Shot. With Defiant gaining more traction thanks to Braviary, your bae Bisharp, and good ol' Thundurus, why would you spam it anymore? I surely don't.

I've said it before. I use standard Sableye moves. Will-O-Wisp / Taunt / Recover / Knock Off and sometimes Topsy/Dbond for extra security. That set neuters stallmons (what's Chansey gonna do?) while also screwing over Defiant users that switch in and any physical attacker that isn't Fire/Lum/Magic Bounce/Water Veil?. So please don't say Sableye is dead weight versus stall. Hell, Prankster Taunt in general fucks up most team archetypes right now, which is why Thundurus is on every team atm. Sableye does this too and carries with it important immunities, WOW, Recover, and Topsy.

On the S-rank topic, I think we're settled on what goes in it right now, we just need to decide what's plus and minus.

 

[skies]

Sableye isn't a stallbreaker, it's a utility Pokemon lol. It can give Stall trouble by running Taunt, but what can't? I really think it does need Dark Void or what will it do? Putting things to Sleep then pivoting is priceless on offense, it's really good. Dark Void is not deadweight in any way. People haven't caught on to Bisharp anyways :'(, and Thundurus / Braviary hate being put to sleep. You don't use Parting Shot until after you put something to sleep, to make sure they don't sweep you. But hey, why Parting Shot those Pokemon anyways lol? Dark Void (or W-o-W) at least does something. It's definitely not doing anything to Stall without running Taunt, and I don't think that's as standard as you're assuming. Darkrai is so versatile, that's why there's not actual "standard" I guess. Taunt is good right now, but it's not on Sableye. I really don't like it on Sableye. It doesn't have the room, and you're really underselling Dark Void. Who cares if it's "predictable" lol? Recover is predictable as hell, but it's used because it's so damn good. What Water Veil Pokemon even exist? "Buizel, Finneon, Floatzel, Goldeen, Huntail, Lumineon, Mantine, Mantyke, Seaking, Wailmer, Wailord" which none of them are used, so what's the point in mentioning it? Magic Bounce is just Espeon or M-Sableye, which get beaten by the aformentioned Parting Shot! I don't think it's an S Rank Pokemon by your logic, which is spreading Taunt. Taunt is being much overselled here. I can't deny that it's good, that's stupid lol, but you're making it out to be like an end all to every team; it's not. Really, Taunt is good, but it's not super amazing. It's just good to shut down stall, prevent set up sweepers, and hazards, which can all be handled without it. It's a nice perk, and a ton of other things can use it anyways. Example: Thundurus, Mega Aerodactyl, and others. Sableye is better running off better things, in my opinion.

 

[xJownage]

I split S into S- and S+. Thoughts on what goes in these?

Proposals:

A+ -> S-

A- -> A

B -> B+

B- -> B

C+ -> B

C+ -> D

C -> D

C -> C-

S -> S+

S -> S+

S -> S+

S -> S+

S -> S-

A+ -> S-

A -> A+

A -> A-

B+ -> A-

B -> C+

B -> B-

B- -> B+

B- -> B

C -> C+

C -> C+

C -> D

Its about damn time. Why didn't we do this a few months ago?

Mega Scizor ofc needs to go up, its just so good in its shift gear sets and its bulk is great. Its typing allows it to setup on many of stabmons common mons, and its power makes it really good.

Why azu back to A? It doesn't really do much atm, as it suffers from being either too weak, not bulky enough, etc. The meta is very unkind to it as well.

Latios is okay, can't say too much for it, B seems more appropriate.

Gengar's viability went up a little with the recent stall infestation, but with all the diggs-less tours and the imminent ban its going to fall out of grace.

Starmie is the specs spout spammer, but I have to ask: Is it outclassed by ninja?

Cincinno has terrible coverage, but its BD set can power through a lot of teams (I talked about this the other day in the OM chat). It ohkos skarm with rock blast (skill link), ohkos quagsire with bullet seed, and can still run extremespeed to plow over faster teams. I actually think it should go UP rather than down.

Ninjask makes me lol

Flareon has the niche of being one of the hardest hitters in stabmons, but its frailty and low speed put it down in C- for sure.

S+ looks good, although I think heatran isn't that metagame defining at the moment to be up there with diggs, thundy, and lant but whatever you say. I don't use tran enough as is.

Sable belongs in S-, still being massively metagame defining (the entire meta is twisted around it and if diggs goes it will become widely popular again).

Megadactyl is so good, S- is a great place for it since its not up there with diggs but it is one of the metas biggest threats.

Greninja is the best specs spout spammer, and has huge coverage. It can finally go physical as well, which is nice.

Skarmory is really falling out of grace, especially because electric types like thundy and mag are everywhere. Could even fall to B+ tbh.

Braviary is still the same, I would withold raising it until a diggs ban, and it would be A+ post diggs imo.

amoonguss has very little use on stall teams anymore, C is okay for it just because regenerator and spore.

Hydreigon is okay, but even my fav mon can't escape the lack of sets. Maybe try NP + taunt ???

Porygon2 could rise to A- for being incredibly bulky and even being able to set up. In the post-diggs meta it will be even better.

rotom-h is atrocious, not even sure why its here. Its typing is amazing with levitate for resisting all kinds of coverage, but its just not good in stabmons.

Bisharp is an okay mon, shift gear can set up on a lot of things, but it really isn't well fit for the meta. Although I do think it is getting better in terms of matchups, and if it has a decent matchup it can be really good. Niche so C+ sounds good.

Darkrai why?

Shedinja why?