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Wouldn't Diggersby acting as a blanket cover for setup threats on offensive teams be even more of a reason to ban it because of how centralizing it is? What you're basically arguing is that Diggersby is the best fakespeed revenge killer, and outclasses others like Stoutland, Ursaring, etc. This much is obvious, and I won't try to argue against it. However, you are kind of making the assumption that without Diggersby, offense would be damage to the extent that it would be unviable as a strategy. This is simply untrue as other fakespeeders, while they do have flaws, still succeed at revenge killing threats, even if not as effectively as Diggersby.
In fact I would say that removing Diggersby from the metagame would have a more positive effect on diversity in the metagame, as there is no longer a fakespeed user that outclasses all the others. I would elaborate on this argument more, however I feel that the train of thought regarding "positive effect on diversity" is inherently flawed because it wanders into the dangerous realm of speculation. Speculating about the condition of the metagame with a hypothetical ban is usually unreliable as it is purely theoretical and cannot account for all possible future outcomes. That's what a suspect ladder is for, to have qualitative data about the metagame instead of just speculation and theorymon (of course we can't actually do a suspect ladder being an OM but we'll make do with suspect tours).
Similarly, arguments such as "offense becomes unviable" and "stall dominates the meta" should be avoided because these are very drastic statements backed by insubstantial evidence. Perhaps stall may be more popular at first, but there are definitely ways to break it down that are viable but less commonly used, like Kyurem-B, that will rise in usage. Unless the ban obviously takes away the only thing that keeps the meta in control, say if Diggersby was the only way to stop setup sweepers (it's obviously not), then this argument is valid. Otherwise, we are better off giving the metagame the benefit of the doubt and assuming that the metagame has ways of adapting.
Okay since everybody decided to interrupt me when I tried to explain in the OM chat, I will just post here. Do not expect me to be nice im pissed off.
I mentioned stall becoming very powerful in the post diggersby meta. Here is why. The post diggersby meta will be filled to the brim with odd setup sweepers not checked by diggersby, as things like SS pyroar (okay probably not SS pyroar) will become staple as high powered sweepers. Offensive teams have to check these types of sweepers, the unorthodox ones, which they used to blanket cover with diggersby. Checking these without diggersby is much more difficult as the other fakespeeders are significantly less powerful (ursaring gets worn down, is made of wet paper, and dies to anything if it doesn't go for extremespeed), and lack secondary stab to hit switch-ins (braviary has dragon ascent but it aint hitting ferro anytime soon). Therefore, building offense becomes very difficult since there are no longer easy blanket checks for sweepers. This means that stall sees a rise. Why? The best way to counter setup sweepers when you don't have reliable methods to blanket check them all offensively is by using unaware. Quagsire and Clefable could wall a significant portion of these sweepers pretty easily, and the bulky mons found on these teams could make stall significantly better. This is just the beginning however. When it becomes harder to check setup sweepers, offensive restriction goes up, and this means less diversity in offense. That makes it that much easier for stall to beat. We can't run around packing shit like thundurus on our teams without consequences; and these mean direct problems for handling stall offensively. The weird setup sweepers will still exist however, so don't they break stall? Don't forget, its easier to beat those with stall teams, because unaware walls a good portion of them. Gothitelle? Shed Shell. not reliable, sure, but it works.
This is all theory and has nothing to do with what will actually happen, but is a very possible scenario and is complete logic (that is undeniable at this point). So don't go discounting these people saying setup sweepers and stall destroy the meta, because its easily possible.
tl;dr offensive restriction goes up, stallbreakers become harder to fit onto teams, stall gets better.
Okay...i don't want to say this but are we clear? Do you get what I am saying? If you don't, fucking read the wall, and if you still don't, feel free to pm me. but don't bring this up in the OM chat please, I think I might throw my desk if I have to deal with 50 people trying to interrupt me "You are contradicting yourself, but I don't understand. I still know what I am talking about though." "lol diggers restricts offense, and i'm not going to hear otherwise" while all I want to do is explain myself.
fair enough, your theory does make a lot of sense. but you also forgot about a pretty big playstyle that is currently dead/dying in stabmons due to diggersbys existance: bulky offense. now, again, my logic is just as theroretical as yours, but with bulky offense gaining the ability to be a viable choice again, stuff like porygon 2, tyranitar, conkeldurr, slowbro, and offensive tanky landous T and other bulkhemoths, and allow them to take on a bit more of a bulky attacker role, rather then a physical wall. setup spam will start to be common, but with many of the pokemon diggersby completely shut down, we will bring back a playstyle diggersby restricted to the point of non existance. setup spam will become a bit more common, but so will the many pokemon who have the bulk to retaliate versus them. of course bdrum sweepers will still be a problem. but its not like diggers stopped that, considering if kanga is not running protect, then you shouldn't be running bdrum kanga/stout since you have perfect coverage with 2 moves anyways. lmao. remember, offense isn't the only offensive archeotype people can run. diggers just pretty much put a huge corkscrew on it.
again, i'm not saying your wrong, or that i'm right, i'm just saying, it is a possibility. and if setup spam(aka normal types lmao) become to powerful, then we will just ban stabbing from them...eevee did that last gen didn't he? idk. i don't think it will get that bad though. and im not 100% sure its a possibility regardless. im just saying. whatever this meta goes through, we will go through it one step at a time, rather then hide from what diggs might be protecting it from. and if the meta goes to complete shit, we can just bring diggers back,and just be like "never do dat shiz again bruh" and tis all guud. but now im just talking out of my ass.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with xownage and my own theory that Offense backed by enough Stall is going to be the new trend.
The council is going to have to decide what they want in the meta: Room for creativity or risk tilting the meta towards Stall (Which, as we know is hated by ~70% of the ladder).
For instance, in the TEG match against insane legend, assume that he had a Mega Aerodactyl. Do you think TEG would have won after SR + Spike and two of his mons Statused? No, not a chance.
I have no right to suggest this, but you could have forfeited. The point of the Frontier is not to prove your skill but to encourage the better players of the tier.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with xownage and my own theory that Offense backed by enough Stall is going to be the new trend.
The council is going to have to decide what they want in the meta: Room for creativity or risk tilting the meta towards Stall (Which, as we know is hated by ~70% of the ladder).
For instance, in the TEG match against insane legend, assume that he had a Mega Aerodactyl. Do you think TEG would have won after SR + Spike and two of his mons Statused? No, not a chance.
I have no right to suggest this, but you could have forfeited. The point of the Frontier is not to prove your skill but to encourage the better players of the tier.
Do keep in mind that's 1 tour and therefore only 1 iteration of things post diggersby. That meta WILL get adapted to, and after 2-3 iterations you'll get what the ACTUAL post diggers meta is.
Do keep in mind that's 1 tour and therefore only 1 iteration of things post diggersby. That meta WILL get adapted to, and after 2-3 iterations you'll get what the ACTUAL post diggers meta is.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with xownage and my own theory that Offense backed by enough Stall is going to be the new trend.
The council is going to have to decide what they want in the meta: Room for creativity or risk tilting the meta towards Stall (Which, as we know is hated by ~70% of the ladder).
For instance, in the TEG match against insane legend, assume that he had a Mega Aerodactyl. Do you think TEG would have won after SR + Spike and two of his mons Statused? No, not a chance.
I have no right to suggest this, but you could have forfeited. The point of the Frontier is not to prove your skill but to encourage the better players of the tier.
That was one game and you're calling it stall: the metagame...
Every other match in that was very quick, IL is a seasoned staller, with or without diggersby his matches take a while. Let's chill before we make any assumptions of the meta bc of one game.
That was one game and you're calling it stall: the metagame...
Every other match in that was very quick, IL is a seasoned staller, with or without diggersby his matches take a while. Let's chill before we make any assumptions of the meta bc of one game.
When did I ever say it would be out and out Stall? I said Stall is much more viable if Digger goes and good players will utilize it with a tinge of Offense. I know them too well that I can say this right now.
I'm not crazy to say that I can fit the Metagame like a puzzle in a whim, but I'm very sure I know how the good players will react to this in team building. And in turn, the good players shape the meta given some time.
But no arguments on that now. Wait and see how it goes. Diggersby hasn't been banned yet.
By the way, how does everyone feel about Serperior? Surely it's the next sleeping threat in STABmons. The few checks it does have are beaten by Substitute and Spore. Its minimal Counters can be worn down to the extent that it can care of them by itself.
if ya dont like stall being dominant, then run nasty plot taunt life orb thundy with oblivion wing and tbolt. 2hkos standard max def clefable, and can taunt chansey and heal off the Stoss damage. seriously though, i do see stall being a bit better, but i wouldn't say dominant, most setup sweepers make mincemeat out of stall due to their superbeefed coverage, but ill say, regular offense will not be as good as it used to be. im just going to guess that bulky offense is going to be dominant, since it has the power to decimate stall, and is bulky enough to outlast typical offense. also, braviary is still a pretty good replacement for diggersby, sure its not nearly as strong as diggers, but it does get defiant, which can let it set up without the fear of KS, or intimidate. again, not as good, but still a nice replacement. too bad its coverage is lacking, having to either forgo fake out, super power, dragon acent, or shell smash.
also i can finally test shell smash p2, can either tank powerful hits with a more then average 105 spc attack and neat bulk boosted by eviolite, or it can smash up and forgo its eviolite boost for +2 spc attack and speed, letting it wallbreak/sweep like never before.
+2 128+ SpA Porygon2 Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 164-193 (47.8 - 56.2%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 128+ SpA Porygon2 Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 148-174 (42 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
pretty decent dmg on resists imo :3 nothing special. but sounds fun on paper!
Slightly off topic, but defending myself about leaving Heatran in on aero because I thought he'd predict my Thundurus and head smash
To the argument about how the meta would shape out to be without diggs, the meta will turn out to be more unpredictable. Diggersby served as a versatile catch-all in the meta, that had just the right power level to be able to be useful in nearly all matchups. Needed to stop people from getting greedy with setup mons? FakeSpeed can OHKO most with relative ease. Stall cores getting too hard to break? Precipice Blades and superb coverage can help. Balance too quickly and too easily answering your threats? U-turn will let you build momentum, and Diggersby is one of the hardest things too switch safely into during the early game.
With the removal of an answer this versatile, I think that we'll see a true diversification of threats, both offensive and defensive, whether that be for better of for worse.
I mean, if Diggersby leaves the tier, then the likes of m-steelix, m-aggron, and all those non-super-bulky special attackers like Darkrai, Greninja, and Latios (and yes, I know both Latios and Greninja are good as is, and I also know that FakeSpeed doesn't live and die with Diggs) suddenly become relevant and new things to be prepared for.
Am I the only one who thinks stall will become worse with the Diggersby ban? Stall is the best style for dealing with Diggersby anyway, while offense has a bad matchup, usually only running 1 soft check such as Aerodactyl or Gengar. Not only will stall benefit less from the Diggersby ban, weaker fakespeeders mean that frail setup sweepers and other fast but frail pokemon get a huge boost in viability now that they can actually sweep teams reliably. Examples include Togekiss, Meloetta and Espeon, all of which beat Clef and Quag (Togekiss depends on set) and have very few counters at all. Some non-SS sweepers such as Sub/Taunt DD 2 attacks Gyarados, Sub DD Kyurem-B and DD V-Create Charizard all demolish stall and would receive a huge increase in viability with Diggersby gone. I could imagine something like DD/Earthquake/Dragon Claw/Fire Blast Mega Garchomp actually becoming a thing too. There are also some really fast and powerful Pokemon that are held back by Diggersby; Greninja and Thundurus immediately come to mind. Seriously name a counter to the mixed sets of Thundurus or Greninja. None exists for either. At all. Typing this out has made me realise how much broken shit we have in stabmons that Diggersby keeps in check, oml. Anyway, point is withDiggersby gone, lots of things that destroy stall get a lot better, resulting in a very HO meta rather than a stally meta, as offense can better deal with these threats through revenge killing and other means.
Also I want to add, I think Mega Sceptile would be a top tier threat in Diggersby-less stabmons. It's a bit of a sleeper threat right now, but it has excellent speed and power with seed flare and dragon pulse, along with spore and focus blast or earthquake to round off coverage. It already has an amazing matchup against offense teams with Diggersby still in the tier, and losing what is basically the only good way for offense to kill it doesn't help. Pretty much all my teams without Aegislash or Chansey are demolished by it. Also as others have said Sableye usage will probably increase hugely to counter setup sweepers.
Yeah no, offense is getting a LOT better with diggers gone, diggers pretty much eats offense (mainly ho tho). Fakespeed is used to deter setup not to beat stall. Like pagoose said stall is the play style that beats diggersby. Stall will probably see a bit less usage considering that offense is getting a lot better but that by no means that stall is worse, like at all. Stall might get a tad better by not having to have a fake speed stop (although they probably still need one), but not anything really notable. Pretty much everything that pagoose said is what my opinion is, just wanted to clear this up since it has been constantly said in the OMs room and is pretty uninformed.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with xownage and my own theory that Offense backed by enough Stall is going to be the new trend.
The council is going to have to decide what they want in the meta: Room for creativity or risk tilting the meta towards Stall (Which, as we know is hated by ~70% of the ladder).
For instance, in the TEG match against insane legend, assume that he had a Mega Aerodactyl. Do you think TEG would have won after SR + Spike and two of his mons Statused? No, not a chance.
I have no right to suggest this, but you could have forfeited. The point of the Frontier is not to prove your skill but to encourage the better players of the tier.
Sorry, one miss does not mean Lcass should fall on his sword because he feels sorry for xJownage.
Agreeing with Pagoose , at least in the immediate aftermath. There will be a scramble to fill the void Diggs will leave if it's banned. But a lot of people have said keeping Diggs around to keep broke shit in check was always a bad excuse. So if X, Y, and Z get out of hand, we'll deal with them too. And keep in mind, our current walls are used to handle our current, most used threats. When new threats rise so will new walls, to an extent of course.
Also, Diggersby did not check Kyurem-B. Too bulky. Usually has a sub. Would you seriously switch in a GROUND type to an ICE type at +1 and/or behind a sub? That's not a fair assessment to say "now Kyurem-B will go unchecked."
And no one has even shown any calcs of other potential FakeSpeeders versus the metagame's relevant threats. We're just assuming "oh nope can't do it." I will calc later myself when I get to a computer.
When did I say balance? There will a whole lot of stall in the top ladder. The new comers can find more room to be creative, sure. But once they catch up, stall will push them away from the meta.
But I rest my case until the suspect ends.
I think the viability of other FakeSpeeders was discussed before. I'd personally go for Kangaskhan.
I'm not going to argue your individual points because, frankly, I'm tired of both of you talking as if you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the scenarios you are predicting will happen. Nobody else has said "this will happen". (About whatever they are predicting) Other people have said "this might happen" very consistently. Saying it will happen doesn't make your argument more convincing, stop doing it. I don't care if you are that convinced it will happen -I'm absolutely convinced you're both 100% wrong, but I'm not in here asserting "this will for sure happen" and "this other thing is 100% guaranteed" and trying to convince people to make a decision based on my conviction.
How this works
I listed common setup and straight-out offensive threats that don't resist Normal. If a weaker Pokemon is able to OHKO something with FakeSpeed, then the calcs for a stronger Pokemon aren't listed. Example: Kangaskhan OHKOs Espeon, so there's no reason to show that the rest of the FakeSpeeders can.
252+ Silk Scarf* FakeSpeed vs Threat = Chance to OHKO
*unless noted otherwise
Kangaskhan has a good combination of bulk and Speed compared to others on this list, but it suffers from having the lowest Attack as well. It also boasts another priority attack, Sucker Punch, should you need a stronger hit against a Ghost or Psychic target. Scrappy is preferred for ignoring Ghost's immunity to Normal, but Inner Focus can help Kangaskhan beat fellow FakeSpeeders by attacking the same turn they use Fake Out with a super-effective Drain Punch.
vs 0/4 Espeon = 115.4 - 136.4%
vs 0/4 Gardevoir = 106.4 - 125.9%
vs 0/4 Greninja = 100.9 - 119.2%
vs 0/4 Mega Sceptile = 93.5 - 110.9%
vs 0/4 Thundurus = 93.3 - 110.3%
vs 0/0 Mega Charizard-Y = 86.1 - 102.3%
vs 0/0 Latios = 84.1 - 99.6%
vs 0/4 Darkrai = 80.7 - 95.3%
vs 4/0 Meloetta = 75.6 - 89.7%
vs 0/4 Yanmega = 75.3 - 89.4%
vs 0/4 Landorus-I/T = 71.1 - 83.9%
vs 0/4 Dragonite = 67.1 - 79.8%
vs 0/4 Mega Charizard-X = 64.2 - 76%
vs 0/4 Mega Gyarados = 58.8 - 69.7%
vs 248/0 Togekiss = 58.3 - 69.4%
vs 0/4 Dragonite w/ Multiscale = 55.6 - 66.2%
vs 0/4 Kyurem-Black = 52.8 - 62.5%
vs 0/0 Mega Garchomp = 52.3 - 62.1%
Compared to the other 110 Attack FakeSpeeders, Stoutland sports similar all-around bulk but is the fastest of the three. Like Kangaskhan it can use Scrappy to bypass Ghost's Normal immunity, though Intimidate can force switches or pad Stoutland's bulk against other physical attackers.
vs 0/4 Mega Sceptile = 103.1 - 122%
vs 0/4 Thundurus = 102.3 - 121%
vs 0/0 Mega Charizard-Y = 94.5 - 112.4%
vs 0/0 Latios = 93.3 - 110.3%
vs 0/4 Darkrai = 89.5 - 105.9%
vs 4/0 Meloetta = 83.5 - 99%
vs 0/4 Yanmega = 83.2 - 98.3%
vs 0/4 Landorus-I/T = 78.9 - 93.3%
vs 0/4 Dragonite = 74.5 - 88.2%
vs 0/4 Mega Charizard-X = 70.3 - 83.7%
vs 0/4 Mega Gyarados = 64.6 - 76.3%
vs 248/0 Togekiss = 64.5 - 76.3%
vs 0/4 Dragonite w/ Multiscale = 61.8 - 73.3%
vs 0/4 Kyurem-Black = 58.5 - 69.4%
vs 0/0 Mega Garchomp = 57.3 - 68.2%
Bouffalant is all-around bulkier than Stoutland, though it lacks the special bulk that Snorlax carries. With 55 Speed it falls between those two as well. Typically the abilities are used with Bouffalant for checking certain threats. Sap Sipper gives it a handy immunity to Spore (and other Grass moves) but Soundproof can block moves like Boomburst, Sing, and Taunt. Consider these advantages when picking it.
Snorlax is the slowest of the 110 FakeSpeeders but can stomach special hits the best. Like Stoutland it learns Crunch to beat Ghosts and like Bouffalant it learns Earthquake to punish Steel-types. Immunity is appealing to ward off stray Toxics and Thick Fat gives it a pseudo resistance to Fire and Ice.
Zangoose plays like a weaker, frailer, and faster Guts Ursaring with a few other advantages. It can learn Knock Off while Ursaring is limited to Crunch or Pursuit to get something on the run. The main reason to use Zangoose over Ursaring is because its Speed lets it get the jump on certain threats when it can't KO with Extreme Speed.
Toxic Boost active @ Toxic Orb:
vs 0/4 Mega Charizard-Y = 122.5 - 144.6%
vs 0/0 Latios = 118.6 - 140.7%
vs 0/4 Darkrai = 114.5 - 135%
vs 4/0 Meloetta = 107.8 - 126.8%
vs 0/4 Yanmega = 106.9 - 126.7%
vs 0/4 Landorus-I/T = 100.8 - 119.1%
vs 0/4 Dragonite = 95.2 - 113.2%
vs 0/4 Mega Charizard-X = 91.2 - 108.3%
vs 248/0 Togekiss = 83 - 98.3%
vs 0/4 Mega Gyarados = 83.2 - 98.1%
vs 0/4 Dragonite w/ Multiscale = 79.1 - 94%
vs 0/4 Kyurem-Black = 75.4 - 89.2%
vs 0/0 Mega Garchomp = 73.6 - 87.3%
The difference in attack between Staraptor and Braviary is pretty minimal. They both OHKO Mega Charizard-Y without rocks and Mega Charizard-X with rocks, two benchmarks I identified with the calcs. However, Staraptor is faster, the fastest FakeSpeeder in fact. It also carries Intimidate to force switches or soften weaker physical attacks. Lastly, using either of the birds requires keeping Stealth Rocks off your side since they need to be able to switch in throughout the match to revenge kill.
vs 0/4 Mega Charizard-Y = 100.6 - 118.8%
vs 0/0 Latios = 98.6 - 116.6%
vs 0/4 Darkrai = 95.3 - 112.4%
vs 4/0 Meloetta = 88.8 - 104.5%
vs 0/4 Yanmega = 88.4 - 104.1%
vs 0/4 Landorus-I/T = 83.9 - 99%
vs 0/4 Dragonite = 78.6 - 93.7%
vs 0/4 Mega Charizard-X = 75 - 88.5%
vs 0/4 Mega Gyarados = 68.5 - 80.8%
vs 248/0 Togekiss = 68 - 81.1%
vs 0/4 Dragonite w/ Multiscale = 65.3 - 77.9%
vs 0/4 Kyurem-Black = 62.3 - 73.9%
vs 0/0 Mega Garchomp = 60.7 - 72.1%
Where Staraptor has Speed, Braviary has better bulk and arguably a better ability for an attacker with Defiant. Not only does it benefit from Intimidate, it also ignores the Attack drops from King's Shield and makes a nice Parting Shot absorber.
vs 0/0 Latios = 99.9 - 117.9%
vs 0/4 Darkrai = 96.3 - 114.2%
vs 4/0 Meloetta = 90 - 106.9%
vs 0/4 Yanmega = 89.7 - 106.6%
vs 0/4 Landorus-I/T = 84.9 - 100.5%
vs 0/4 Dragonite = 80.1 - 94.9%
vs 0/4 Mega Charizard-X = 77 - 91.2%
vs 248/0 Togekiss = 69.9 - 82.5%
vs 0/4 Mega Gyarados = 69.1 - 82%
vs 0/4 Dragonite w/ Multiscale = 66.5 - 78.8%
vs 0/4 Kyurem-Black = 63.5 - 75.1%
vs 0/0 Mega Garchomp = 62.1 - 73.3%
With Guts active, Ursaring hits the hardest of any FakeSpeeder available. This comes with obvious drawbacks, however, namely the residual damage that adds up quickly. But unlike Zangoose, Ursaring can forgo a status orb and carry Silk Scarf, which gives it even stronger hits once Guts activates. The other abilities are worth considering as well: Quick Feet makes it the fastest FakeSpeeder when statused, meaning it can spam its standby Facade if needed, while Unnerve blocks Sitrus Berry consumption on targets that might try to setup as you switch in.
vs 0/0 Latios = 104.1 - 123.6%
vs 0/4 Darkrai = 99.9 - 118.8%
vs 4/0 Meloetta = 94 - 111%
vs 0/4 Yanmega = 93.9 - 111.1%
vs 0/4 Landorus-I/T = 88 - 104.6%
vs 0/4 Dragonite = 82.9 - 98.1%
vs 0/4 Mega Charizard-X = 79.3 - 94.2%
vs 0/4 Mega Gyarados = 72.7 - 86%
vs 248/0 Togekiss = 72.5 - 86%
vs 0/4 Dragonite w/ Multiscale = 69 - 81.7%
vs 0/4 Kyurem-Black = 66.1 - 78.4%
vs 0/0 Mega Garchomp = 64 - 76.1%
Guts active:
vs 0/4 Dragonite = 103.6 - 122.8%
vs 0/4 Mega Charizard-X = 99.2 - 117.4%
vs 248/0 Togekiss = 90.3 - 106.6%
vs 0/4 Mega Gyarados = 90.3 - 106.5%
vs 0/4 Dragonite w/ Multiscale = 86.3 - 102.1%
vs 0/4 Kyurem-Black = 82.3 - 97.1%
vs 0/0 Mega Garchomp = 80.5 - 95.2%
Sawsbuck is okay intheory, but in practice it's simply too easy to wall. Skarmory, Aegislash, and more shut down anything it wants to do because of lack of coverage
Sawsbuck was a huge threat in Gen V. So it'd definitely be a good alternative. It has STAB recovery and wonderful coverage in Hi Jump Kick. But yes, too easy to wall.
Kangaskhan would be my replacement for Diggersby if it goes. The one amazing niche it has is Scrappy, meaning: Sableye can't stop your sweep and you can spam Fake Out without having to predict whether the opponent's Ghost Mon will switch in. Drain Punch is coverage of choice that also has recovery.
Sawsbuck was a huge threat in Gen V. So it'd definitely be a good alternative. It has STAB recovery and wonderful coverage in Hi Jump Kick. But yes, too easy to wall.
Eh, I'm focusing on FakeSpeeders. Afaik Buck would rather Spore+Belly Drum than FakeSpeed. I'll add it if people think it can utilize that other role well.
I'd consider Azumarril as a contender for FakeSpeed, honestly. I mean, it's not the most ideal set but it could technically run it now that the other FakeSpeeding bunny is gone. Despite the lack of STAB it still hits fairy hard. Something like Fake Out / ESpeed / Crabhammer / Play Rough could work on an Assault Vest set. You could even replace Crabhammer or ESpeed with Water Shurriken, but meh.
