No, definitely not. Suicune can sweep, it can wall, it can pivot, it can support. Chansey does support and wall only
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Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]
- Thread starter Snaquaza
- Start date
I'll give you that it can't pivot but chansey can sweep unprepared teams with an offensive calm mind set. It might not be good but Suicune also is much better in support and wall than offense.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
I said it wouldn't get B NOW, as in, I just don't know yet. Theorymons only do so much. I'm going to use it myself on the ladder for a bit and theorymon some sets and make a decision. If its as effective in practice as it is on paper, then it will surely end up B rank. Whether or not it is going to be that good is another question.
Suicune might be broken because it is so easy to use, but your argument itself is built on the wrong basis completely and seems rooted in frustration and unsupported analysis. Suicune needs to be prepared for. The number of mons that beat suicune 1v1? Its staggering. Preparing for it specifically isn't even needed in this metagame, imo if your team can't beat suicune by default then you have a shitty team. Trust me, I would know; I've been building teams since the beginning and have 93 different teams, every single one beating suicune without me building to beat it. Ive built HO, BO, Balance, Passive stall, true momentum stall, Typical inh stall (not passive), semi-stall, weather, you name it. Every one of those teams beats cune, and I don't build for cune for a second. Its just a mon thats a checkmark on my threatlist when I am reviewing the team. Suicune is hard to beat if you don't prepare for it, therefore its broken is a shitty argument when you take into account the fact that its pretty easy to prepare for anyways.I'm about to do what I do best; complaining.
Suicune: Why is Suicune still allowed in this meta? It's fucking broken. It's bulky, now gets Intimidate (as if it wasn't hard enough to take down already), gets Quiver Dance now and a few solid ass moves which he even gets STAB on, such as Hydro Pump and Scald. If you're not using a random ass Water Absorber or a Unaware Electric type, this thing sets up no problem at all. And setting up with something bulky is not hard to do either. I don't want to be forced to run something specifically to deal with that, doesn't that mean it's over centralizing?
I rest my case.
Gale Wings:
We all know this is a bullshit ass ability. And it doesn't matter how fast your pokémon are, they'll get revenge killed by some stupid and most random Gale Wings user. This ability is literally sponging out the fun in my perspective. I've been wanting to give a use to Whimsicott, but that's next to impossible with all the Gale Wings users in this tier. 'Just use a Levitating steel type' 'Why don't you use Heatran?'. Well, there we go again, they're forcing me to run a specific mon or specific typing with a specific ability in order to deal with that.
This set was meant to deal with Landorus-T and Mega Pinsir in specific. Aaand then they Flare Blitzed the shit out of me.
We all know the Gale Wings ability is over centralizing this metagame, and for a good reason. It's an over used ability for a good reason, but it's getting annoying now. I don't think I've seen a single team without a Gale Wings user. And this just makes you not use certain Grass and Fighting types with the random Gale Wings users lurking around the corner, please limit it or just get rid of it entirely. This also is sponging the fun out of this meta.
Landorus-T:
Landorus-T is really fucking good in this meta, I understand that now. But this thing is way too powerful and breaks down your walls without even trying. If it's Aerilate, all you have to click is Double Edge / Return. If it's Gale Wings, you click Brave Bird. It doesn't have a single strategy involved and it rips apart this meta game. This thing is ridiculously over powered. Give me something that deals with ALL sets it commonly runs in this tier and make sure that set has recovery. This thing just has to go, let people be creative and find a substitute for this guy, because Landorus-T is far from fun to deal with.
Gale wings. Shut the fuck up. You DON'T know what you are talking about. Let me list some checks to gale wings, not counters: GW Salamence, Levitran, Raikou, Thundurus, Manectric, all 3 -ate megas, Weavile, etc. etc. etc. Counters? Rhypherior/don, Rotom-H, Intimidate Suicune, Unaware Suicune against boosting sets, Regirock, etc. etc. etc. shut the fuck up. I am sorry, if you can't handle gale wings you aren't building properly and thats a fact. If you are running BO/Balance without something that checks/counters it, your dumb; if you are running HO and don't have an -ate mega/weavile/multiple checks (manectric/aero/raikou/thundy), then you are also dumb. Its not that hard to build against it, don't make it out to be something it is not.
Landorus-T is the one that I think would get a look if it wasn't so much overprepared for. TBH its versatility is amazing and it can easily beat all its checks and counters, however who cares because almost anything can do that in inheritance. Aerilate is slow and easily revenge killed; stall teams don't have an issue running regirock/leviblade/levidiancie/intimidate suicune which wall the shit out of it with wisp or scald in cune's case.
I am not saying all your arguments are wrong, I am saying you are rooting them in blind ignorance and frustration, not actual logic.
If you want something that counters every set for x mon in inheritance, stop playing this meta. EVERY good mon in this tier has no reliable counters to all its sets, and that's a fact, so please don't keep talking about it.
This is very, very wrong. Cune is not passive for one, scald is a constant threat that deters setup sweepers that can't sub on it. Chansey is also in a metagame where the attackers are primarily physical whereas its specially defensive, while Cune is in a meta where its physically bulky and everything is a physical attacker. Cune is much more versatile than chansey as well. Where chansey has just a few select options, Cune has ALL the options in the world in this metagame. It can spin/defog, support, wall everything, sweep, sweep-stop - it can do basically anything defensive you want it to. Chansey has no such option.
no.
.
.
What, you wanted an actual response? You are talking about CM Chansey. If you invest in Spa, you don't have enough defenses; if you invest in defense, you hit like a ball of cotton slapping itself against your face. Not only that, but it has no speed and can't boost its speed, so it has to tank hits to set up AND to do damage back. Yeah, CM Chansey? No.
I don't care how my arguments are built up, and yes I know I cuss a lot, I made that post in like 3 minutes and couldn't be arsed to read it through. I was just stating my opinions / suggestions. I don't want to run something specifically to deal with a certain mon or ability. That's just bullshit. From what I've seen there's quite a few people complaining about Gale Wings and about Landorus-T. You may obviously disagree with me, but I don't disagree with myself.
... aaaand I got impatient and swapped out Recover for Icy Wind on Diancie (Still inheriting from Sableye) and am still getting an error message that the set is illegal for Inheritance in some unspecified way, which is odd since now none of the moves are egg moves.
What the heck.
What the heck.
You're not allowed to inherit from Sableye. Prankster Will O Wisp, Taunt and Recover are pretty damn overpowered. Especially when you realize you can put it on basically anything.
It's MEGA Sableye. Which we didn't ban inheriting from.
There's no accident where Mega Sableye got banned from being inherited, either, since I've got multiple other team members inheriting from Mega Sableye that are accepted no problem. The only difference I'm finding is that Diancie is No Eggs Group, which shouldn't even matter with no egg moves!
Also Sableye got banned because of Prankster+Metal Burst, particularly on Chansey.
Also Sableye got banned because of Prankster+Metal Burst, particularly on Chansey.
Uh, being 'forced' to have a certain Pokemon to deal with another Pokemon isn't really it being broken. It's that Pokemon being good in the meta and you should adapt to it. This argument can be used for anything, like Talonflame is broken because it wrecks my Mono-Grass team. I understand mono-teams are fun to use at times, but still, monoteams aren't the best things competitively, because there is always at least one mon that can wreck a monotype team.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
for what it counts, im not against a landorus ban, as i was the initial person who fit it in with archeops when talking about its ban. to be completely honest, landorus severely restricts the metagame, all the sets it can run ALL destroy one anothers checks. and to make matters worse, the 2 best sets (gale wings/protean) destroy offense/stall respectively. were talking about a pokemon capable of picking its playstyle it wants to restrict and destroy. and stallbreaker protean lando even has element of surprise...since noone for some reason wants to run it, dispite it being the perfect lure for gale wingers to sweep. landorus was never a problem to me, but thats because we overprepare for it way too much. seriously. when unaware rhydon is your check, you know something is centralizing. and the problem is, they dont even STOP landorus if you guess the set wrong. the problem is, no matter what team type you are running, landorus will scare you. and it will either slowly injure your team if its the wrong set (its not like protean suckerpunch/choice banded brave birds cant threaten the "other side" of the team archetype) or just outright break your team to pieces. landorus is basically the "charizard" on steriods. instead of picking between physical and special defender...you pick between stall or offense in general.
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Landorus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 164-195 (51.4 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
thats the #1 check to gale wings...2hkoed on the switch...and permanently crippled so it cant handle gale wings anymore. for anyone doubting its power. also hp steel ironically is a beast coverage move, since allthough 60 base power, it destroys many of proteans usual counters without relying on iron tail.
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Landorus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 164-195 (51.4 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
thats the #1 check to gale wings...2hkoed on the switch...and permanently crippled so it cant handle gale wings anymore. for anyone doubting its power. also hp steel ironically is a beast coverage move, since allthough 60 base power, it destroys many of proteans usual counters without relying on iron tail.
You made that post after you lost to it turn 1 because you refused to acknowledge it as a threat, and rage quit as it 6-0d you. Complaining about gale wings just because you didn't run an adequate answer (seriously, people run flare blitz, and you act all OMQWTFBBQ)
You don't make any good arguments. Now, if you're here to vent, go ahead. But trying to argue a point like that is exactly the way to not be taken seriously here.
I haven't read this forum to see if it has already been mentioned, but I'd have to call Huntail-MegaGyarados the MVP at sweeping through defensive cores in inheritence.
A combination of an immunity to burns, the power to ignore unaware and water absorb, boosting in shell smash, and sucker punch means that Gyarados can mow through many conventional defensive pokemon such as the regis, doublade, rhydon, etc. with ease.
Priority in sucker punch also ensures that only fake out and e-speed users can touch you after one shell smash since gale wings users will still be outsped.
The MVP of inheritence IMO.
A combination of an immunity to burns, the power to ignore unaware and water absorb, boosting in shell smash, and sucker punch means that Gyarados can mow through many conventional defensive pokemon such as the regis, doublade, rhydon, etc. with ease.
Priority in sucker punch also ensures that only fake out and e-speed users can touch you after one shell smash since gale wings users will still be outsped.
The MVP of inheritence IMO.
Is it possible to make it to where event natures are ignored when determining the legality of a moveset?
For Example:
Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Download
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Iron Head
- Zen Headbutt
- Blaze Kick
- Shift Gear
This Metagross is inheriting from Genesect to receive Shift Gear and Download. Genesect offers Metagross two STABs, Iron Head and Zen Headbutt. For a coverage move I chose Blaze Kick, because Fire has good coverage with the other moves and Genesect doesn't have much else except maybe E-Speed going for Metagross. Running Blaze Kick, however, means that Metagross is forced to run a Hasty nature, which is kind of detrimental due to the weakening its defense stat.
Other interesting donors like Eruption Heatran, E-Speed or Aura Sphere Legendary dogs all have the same problem with event-locked natures and are unviable donors of those moves because of their terrible natures.
I feel like the nature should be ignored increase some poke donors' viability.
EDIT: Besides, its not like these are legal sets anyway in vanilla versions
For Example:
Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Download
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Iron Head
- Zen Headbutt
- Blaze Kick
- Shift Gear
This Metagross is inheriting from Genesect to receive Shift Gear and Download. Genesect offers Metagross two STABs, Iron Head and Zen Headbutt. For a coverage move I chose Blaze Kick, because Fire has good coverage with the other moves and Genesect doesn't have much else except maybe E-Speed going for Metagross. Running Blaze Kick, however, means that Metagross is forced to run a Hasty nature, which is kind of detrimental due to the weakening its defense stat.
Other interesting donors like Eruption Heatran, E-Speed or Aura Sphere Legendary dogs all have the same problem with event-locked natures and are unviable donors of those moves because of their terrible natures.
I feel like the nature should be ignored increase some poke donors' viability.
EDIT: Besides, its not like these are legal sets anyway in vanilla versions
He didn't mention that in that post.
In that case he might have the same problem another guy had while trying to inherit from Charizard Y. It was illegal for no reason, because Charizard could have those moves legally. According to the OM room auth, there is nothing you can do, because the reason why is unknown.
You really think I'd complain about something because I lost to it turn one? That's far from true. I lost to it because my team had nothing for it. I forfeited because it was pointless to continue, seeing I lost it fair and square. But that doesn't mean it's not broken. I am not a sore loser, man. If I lose, I lose. And I take my loss. I personally just think the mentioned pokémon should get limited. Maybe a clause where you can only inherit from a mon once per team. I think that would balance out this meta a lot more already.
Well, fun fact, Talonflame did get banned from Monotype a while a back, because it completely wrecked Grass and Fighting on its own. So I don't quite get what this has to do with the current discussions. Maybe I misunderstood you..?
You guys act like I have the power to ban everything I can't deal with. But that's not true. I just state my opinion and suggestions in an unusual way.
If the council, assuming this has a council, disagrees with me, they'll obviously ignore my comment. There is no need to insult or offend me or anything, because it doesn't accomplish anything in this. So please calm down.
He meant bringing a Monotype team to a non-Monotype metagame.Kasumi♥ said:
And honestly I agree with the Inheritance clause on the grounds of whatever justification we use for Species Clause.
Honestly, Gale wing's is very annoying, and while as its not that broken in terms of coverage or so, it does have the nuinsance that it does limit team building cause you pretty much need something that can take both; fire and flying and on top of it, bonus would that it doesnt mind getting burned by will o wisp.
Or you need to be able to check it with something faster priority wise, but those guys dont enjoy burns, cause talonflame gets that nasty will o.
Otherwise, hope you're bulky enough to enjoy those 120 stab boosted choice banded/peaked CA-CAWS
I know it has the positive side of being good for revenge killing, but with the mons in inheritance you can slap on it, it kinda goes overkill cause the attack stats allow it to also go for more than just that.
Still I am not sure if its that broken tho, but it is highly annoying.
Or you need to be able to check it with something faster priority wise, but those guys dont enjoy burns, cause talonflame gets that nasty will o.
Otherwise, hope you're bulky enough to enjoy those 120 stab boosted choice banded/peaked CA-CAWS
I know it has the positive side of being good for revenge killing, but with the mons in inheritance you can slap on it, it kinda goes overkill cause the attack stats allow it to also go for more than just that.
Still I am not sure if its that broken tho, but it is highly annoying.
Does anyone even inherit from the same Pokemon multiple times on their team? I don't see the point in having an Inheritance clause. If it is broken to inherit from something, then inheriting from it should be banned altogether. If inheriting from a Pokemon is not broken, then I don't see the problem inheriting from it 6 times if you want to.
Pokemon has always been about preparing for prevalent threats to ensure your team has as few weaknesses as possible, in every tier. Just because you have to prepare specifically for something doesn't mean it is broken. The line separating Suicune from over centralizing things like Assist is the fact that many things can defeat it, and these things have many roles outside of this. A few examples are status, trick, lures or just outright firepower. The fact that almost all offensive threats in Inheritance have the capability of setting up means that breaking through Suicune isn't that hard with powerful nukes. It's not like these options limit what kind of team you can have either. For example, while status is often used on stall teams, it is also completely viable on offensive teams, in forms like Toxic Spikes or Will-o-Wisp Landorus-T. You might as well suggest banning other bulky Pokemon, because they also have access to Intimidate, Quiver Dance, and STAB moves.
If you ask me, I'd sooner ban inheriting from kecleon rather then gale wings since physical sets are extremely difficult to switch in to thanks to STAB fake out and knock off (special sets are as well, but they are not as common from what I see) and it is the more annoying of the lando-t sets IMO because it is not limited by coverage options like the gale wings set is.
Physical attackers can't touch this mofo (inherited from Furfrou):
Cresselia @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Cotton Guard
- Zen Headbutt / U-turn
- Toxic
Zen headbutt is more useful if your team is stall oriented. However, U-turn is the better choice if your team is offensive. The sheer massive defense of this thing allows it to tank the most powerful of dark/bug moves, and Cresselia is typically slower than enemy sweepers so the U-turn can hand you a revenge killer without the death. This set pairs up very well with choice scarf ditto, as well as this set on Mega Aerodactyl (Inherited from Mew).
Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Poison Jab
- U-turn
OR (if you prefer low kick, and don't mind gunk shot; inherited from Greninja)
Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Low Kick
- Ice Punch
- Gunk Shot
- U-turn
Anyways, back to that cresselia set-
It can hold a very valuable position on almost any team. It can tank certain special attackers, and practically every physical attacker. Rest heals status, cotton guard undermines swords dancers, zen headbutt and u-turn have their various uses, and toxic is great for stalling them out. I wouldn't hesitate to say that fur coat Cresselia is the most versatile physical wall in Inheritance.
Cresselia @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Cotton Guard
- Zen Headbutt / U-turn
- Toxic
Zen headbutt is more useful if your team is stall oriented. However, U-turn is the better choice if your team is offensive. The sheer massive defense of this thing allows it to tank the most powerful of dark/bug moves, and Cresselia is typically slower than enemy sweepers so the U-turn can hand you a revenge killer without the death. This set pairs up very well with choice scarf ditto, as well as this set on Mega Aerodactyl (Inherited from Mew).
Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Poison Jab
- U-turn
OR (if you prefer low kick, and don't mind gunk shot; inherited from Greninja)
Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Low Kick
- Ice Punch
- Gunk Shot
- U-turn
Anyways, back to that cresselia set-
It can hold a very valuable position on almost any team. It can tank certain special attackers, and practically every physical attacker. Rest heals status, cotton guard undermines swords dancers, zen headbutt and u-turn have their various uses, and toxic is great for stalling them out. I wouldn't hesitate to say that fur coat Cresselia is the most versatile physical wall in Inheritance.
Some of my thoughts about things.
Landorus T: I actually don't know if its broken or not. It has been suspected twice before and both passed. If I compare something like this is to STABmons Diggersby, who also passed the suspect twice but got banned in the third suspect. STABmons Diggersby is the strongest FakeSpeeder in STABmons before it got banned. It can also run other sets like Belly Drum. Landorus T is kinda similar imo. Its the strongest Gale Wings user in here and it can run other set like Protean.
Gale Wings: no need to ban this one. There are several abusers like Salamence, Dragonite, Braviary, but none of them has an Attack stats as high as Landorus T. Its just like FakeSpeed in STABmons. All Normal types get it, but none of them has an Attack stats as high as Diggersby. So problem lies in Landorus T.
Landorus T: I actually don't know if its broken or not. It has been suspected twice before and both passed. If I compare something like this is to STABmons Diggersby, who also passed the suspect twice but got banned in the third suspect. STABmons Diggersby is the strongest FakeSpeeder in STABmons before it got banned. It can also run other sets like Belly Drum. Landorus T is kinda similar imo. Its the strongest Gale Wings user in here and it can run other set like Protean.
Gale Wings: no need to ban this one. There are several abusers like Salamence, Dragonite, Braviary, but none of them has an Attack stats as high as Landorus T. Its just like FakeSpeed in STABmons. All Normal types get it, but none of them has an Attack stats as high as Diggersby. So problem lies in Landorus T.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
it was suspected once, mainly due to it being outclassed by archeops iirc.
To be fair, Diggersby has a maximum attack of 464 in STABmons versus Ursaring which has the next highest attack for a Normal type at 394 which is a significant difference. Landorus-T has a maximum attack of 427 versus 416 for Archeops, 405 for Salamence, and 403 for Dragonite, so there isn't a big drop-off from Landorus-T to other potential abusers of Gale Wings. If Landorus-T were to be banned, people would just take the next man up approach.
You don't care? Why should we care about your arguments if you don't? Your opinion holds little to no merit if you refuse to change it. You might just be a bad inheritance player. It doesn't matter if we have 15 000 people complaining about Inheritance, they all have to have a COIL rating higher than 2700. If you don't disagree with yourself, after being proven wrong by multiple people and only being supported by inexperienced players then you need to refrain from posting here until you mature.
Lol your team has nothing for the ONLY S ranked pokemon in the tier? Seems like a great idea. Donor clause is debatable, it's mostly fine right now.
You want us to not insult you or not have any harsh words for you yet you refuse to stop swearing in you arguments.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
well...i hate to be the white knight in this, but...
i don't see how him swearing in his arguments gears you on how you speak to someone. especially when they aren't personal attacks or anything. if anything, id criticize you and your arguments on this post. if you want him to mature, then why are you insulting his lack of maturity and his skill level? (not implying he/she is immature). Another thing to note, is that people are entitled to their opinions, no matter how off they may be. (again, not implying anything). honestly, you say for him to "refrain from posting here until you mature" but all i see, is you "pointing your finger at the tattle tale", sorry.
btw, he said he didn't care about how he worded it, not the arguments themselves.