Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]

[Froggyboy]

These anti-ban arguments for Gothitelle are pretty dumb tbh

"It's still legal in OU so why ban it here?": OU is pretty careful on what they suspect, they don't suspect and ban all the things people want to ban the second they ask for it. And Gothitelle is actually talked about alot when it comes to suspecting, at least by non-council members, as well as GeoPass. And while we can't really know exactly what they are thinking on Gothitelle at the moment, the fact that people find Gothitelle in OU very uncompetitive and unfun means it's not like it's skipping around scotfree.
Plus the metas are kinda different and stuff.

"Just run Shed Shell on what you deem vulnerable.": Yeah, ok. Let's just run Shed Shell on basically everything for Mega Gengar, except for Ground and Ghost types, let's give those a Scarf so they can outspeed and kill it. Seriously, this argument is stupid. Stall is based off of making the battle longer, with wittling Pokemon down with Status or getting off chip damage with things like Seismic Toss. Ok, maybe not the greatest definition, but still, if you have a Stall team, and Gothitelle basically destroys Stall, then maybe 5 outta 6 Pokemon on the stall team would have to run Shed Shell, since they are all vulnerable.


I don't really have an opinion on if Shadow Tag should be banned or not, but I'd prefer just Gothitelle being banned, as Wobbuffet is nowhere near being broken, and isn't such a threat to a playstyle like Gothitelle is to Stall.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

These anti-ban arguments for Gothitelle are pretty dumb tbh

"It's still legal in OU so why ban it here?": OU is pretty careful on what they suspect, they don't suspect and ban all the things people want to ban the second they ask for it. And Gothitelle is actually talked about alot when it comes to suspecting, at least by non-council members, as well as GeoPass. And while we can't really know exactly what they are thinking on Gothitelle at the moment, the fact that people find Gothitelle in OU very uncompetitive and unfun means it's not like it's skipping around scotfree.
Plus the metas are kinda different and stuff.

"Just run Shed Shell on what you deem vulnerable.": Yeah, ok. Let's just run Shed Shell on basically everything for Mega Gengar, except for Ground and Ghost types, let's give those a Scarf so they can outspeed and kill it. Seriously, this argument is stupid. Stall is based off of making the battle longer, with wittling Pokemon down with Status or getting off chip damage with things like Seismic Toss. Ok, maybe not the greatest definition, but still, if you have a Stall team, and Gothitelle basically destroys Stall, then maybe 5 outta 6 Pokemon on the stall team would have to run Shed Shell, since they are all vulnerable.


I don't really have an opinion on if Shadow Tag should be banned or not, but I'd prefer just Gothitelle being banned, as Wobbuffet is nowhere near being broken, and isn't such a threat to a playstyle like Gothitelle is to Stall.

You're right on everything here, but I'd like to chime in one last time before I go to bed.
Just to strengthen your second paragraph, in the battle against Chopin he had a medicham. my only way of stopping Mega Medicham is using Cresselia. If I DONT have leftovers on Cresselia I'm eventually beate, lacking the means to recover. Therefore I cannot run Shed shell on it.

Thirdly, I believe all Trapping abilities should be banned on the stand of them being uncompedetive. A dugtrio is broken if your opponent is carrying a talonflame and your only check is Heatran.

 

[Froggyboy]

Well, if your only Talonflame check is Heatran, you have something wrong with your team.

 

[Throbulator36]

How can I possibly prepare for something like Gothitelle? If you truly believe what you just said then you have no idea how Gothitelle works against stall. I CAN'T beat it. I don't CHOOSE not to. Offensive teams can't just CHOOSE to stop a +6 attack +6 speed extreme speeding Mega Medicham. You can't just CHOOSE to stop something like Gothitelle without severely centralising your team.

You most certainly can choose to stop it

Banette @ Banettite
Contrary
-Protect
-Topsy Turvy
-Knock Off/filler
-filler

Whether it's good or not is up to you

Also you can prepare for goth. It might not work every time and might make a bad team but

Mantine @ Leftovers
Regenerator
-U-turn
-Toxic
-Protect
-Foul Play/Knock Off/Taunt

Set might be suboptimal

Aggron @ Aggronite.
Intimidate
-Roost
-U-turn
-Scald/Steel Wing
-filler

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

I'm going to take this post to showcase Mew, who has everything you could ever want in a movepool and then some, as quite possibly the best donor in the metagame, if not then one of the best. It literally has almost every move any Pokemon could want on both defensive and offensive teams:

• It gets pivoting moves in Volt Switch, U-Turn, and Baton Pass
• It gets boosting moves in Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Iron Defense, Amnesia, Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and Rock Polish
• It gets reliable recovery in Roost, Rest/Sleep Talk or Softboiled
• It gets useful support/crippling moves in Trick, Defog, Heal Bell, Toxic, Thunder Wave, Taunt, Super Fang, Reflections, Light Screen, Will-O-Wisp, Trick Room, Me First, Tailwind, Worry Seed, Stealth Rock, and Transform
• It has a wide offensive movepool consisting of Psychic, Psyshock, Aura Sphere, Ancient Power, Dragon Claw, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Earthquake, Brick Break, Sludge Wave, Sludge Bomb, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Energy Ball, Scald, Aerial Ace, Explosion, Shadow Claw, Stone Edge, Gyro Ball, Frost Breath, X-Scissor, Rock Slide, Dragon Tail, Poison Jab, Grass Knot, Flash Cannon, Wild Charge, Snarl, Dark Pulse, Power-Up Punch, Dazzling Gleam, Surf, Waterfall, Dragon Pulse, Drain Punch, Earth Power, Aqua Tail, Fire Punch, Foul Play, Giga Drain, Gunk Shot, Hyper Voice, Ice Punch, Iron Head, Knock Off, Outrage,Seed Bomb, Low Kick, Superpower, Thunder Punch, Zen Headbutt, Counter, and Seismic Toss
• It has some cool priority in Sucker Punch and Vacuum Wave
• It is also cute asf :>

The only downside is you are stuck with Synchronize, a generally shitty ability, although if you think about it it can actually be useful in some scenarios, such as statusing a Magic Bounce user, or switching in on a WoW from bulky variants of Skarmory and Lando-T that inherit from Talonflame (before you say everything from Talonburd goes offensive, Snaquaza himself used to use a set with Rocky Helmet/WoW Skarm from Talonflame). It also neuters stallmons by Toxicing them when they try to Toxic you if you have eliminated their Heal Beller. This makes a great donor for stall teams, solving many of their problems by offering 3 choices of switching move, means of reliable recovery, Heal Bell and Defog support, as well as boosting moves that can allow the inheritors to sweep or continue to wall everything. A very solid donor that everyone should consider inheriting from for both the reasons mentioned above and it's vast offensive movepool as well.

 

[Red Cat]

You most certainly can choose to stop it

Banette @ Banettite
Contrary
-Protect
-Topsy Turvy
-Knock Off/filler
-filler

Whether it's good or not is up to you

Also you can prepare for goth. It might not work every time and might make a bad team but

Mantine @ Leftovers
Regenerator
-U-turn
-Toxic
-Protect
-Foul Play/Knock Off/Taunt

Set might be suboptimal

Aggron @ Aggronite.
Intimidate
-Roost
-U-turn
-Scald/Steel Wing
-filler

Goth's goal on a stall team is to trap and kill stuff that isn't prepared to beat it; it doesn't give a shit about the stuff that is prepared to beat it because it will just switch out if it finds itself in that matchup. The only way for a stall team to "prepare" for Gothitelle is to have all 6 Pokemon on your team either be immune to Trick or able to escape from it somehow (and even then, a Pokemon could be stuck with a Scarf before it can U-turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot, or Baton Pass). If a Pokemon on a stall team is "prepared" to beat Goth, it is probably not prepared to beat much else in this meta. The thing which separates Gothitelle and Wobbuffet from every other Pokemon in the game is the ability for a player to choose which of his opponent's Pokemon dies. In almost every other case, if your opponent is going to hit you with a powerful attack and something is guaranteed to die, at least you get to choose which of your Pokemon goes down and can regain momentum from there if you have a good enough team and are a good enough player. Goth (and to a lesser extent, Wobb) allows your opponent to take that autonomy away from you which is uncompetitive.

Edit: To hammer the point home for people who don't get it:

• If you lose because you have no checks / counters to an opponent's Pokemon, you deserve to lose.
• If you lose because you have only one check / counter to an opponent's Pokemon and your opponent finds a way to play around it, you deserve to lose.
• If you lose because only one or two of your Pokemon does not check / counter an opponent's Pokemon, then there is a problem with that Pokemon your opponent is using.

For the second point, using Goth to trap an opponent's check or counter is not really "playing around it". It is just an easy way to eliminate it which requires almost no thought or strategy (hence why some people use trappers instead of other things like wallbreakers, lures, stallbreakers, etc.).

 

[Throbulator36]

Goth's goal on a stall team is to trap and kill stuff that isn't prepared to beat it; it doesn't give a shit about the stuff that is prepared to beat it because it will just switch out if it finds itself in that matchup. The only way for a stall team to "prepare" for Gothitelle is to have all 6 Pokemon on your team either be immune to Trick or able to escape from it somehow (and even then, a Pokemon could be stuck with a Scarf before it can U-turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot, or Baton Pass). If a Pokemon on a stall team is "prepared" to beat Goth, it is probably not prepared to beat much else in this meta. The thing which separates Gothitelle and Wobbuffet from every other Pokemon in the game is the ability for a player to choose which of his opponent's Pokemon dies. In almost every other case, if your opponent is going to hit you with a powerful attack and something is guaranteed to die, at least you get to choose which of your Pokemon goes down and can regain momentum from there if you have a good enough team and are a good enough player. Goth (and to a lesser extent, Wobb) allows your opponent to take that autonomy away from you which is uncompetitive.

I wasn't trying to say it wasn't broken. But generally it's probably pretty hard to break that core.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

Mega Bee is not going to get B just yet because of the amount of priority and the fact that anything on offense shits on it. If I see it doing major work against stall teams on a consistent basis that may change, but against offense and even balance it requires a lot of support to function to its optimal potential.

Hippo from magcargo seems nice, I'll add it at the next update (tag me if i forget).

I agree about it needing lots of support to function optimally. I just feel it is a bit under rated and given the chance can easily punch holes in a lot of different types of teams. I also wanted to give credit to the fact that it can handle a lot of top tier threats.

While I realize a lot of Suicine run Intimidate I'm just putting this here to give you an idea of Mega Bee's power.

Here is what it does to one of the bulkiest walls:

252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Here is Mega Luke's HJK damage:

252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 222-262 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now, lets take into consideration Mega Luke will most likely be Jolly as it cannot as easily afford to be Adamant:

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I don't know about you but to me that is an impressive damage output for a mon that isn't even ranked.


Yes, it needs support and with the proper support it easily punches holes in other teams.

 

[Amaluna]

I'm about to do what I do best; complaining.

Suicune: Why is Suicune still allowed in this meta? It's fucking broken. It's bulky, now gets Intimidate (as if it wasn't hard enough to take down already), gets Quiver Dance now and a few solid ass moves which he even gets STAB on, such as Hydro Pump and Scald. If you're not using a random ass Water Absorber or a Unaware Electric type, this thing sets up no problem at all. And setting up with something bulky is not hard to do either. I don't want to be forced to run something specifically to deal with that, doesn't that mean it's over centralizing?

I rest my case.

Gale Wings:
We all know this is a bullshit ass ability. And it doesn't matter how fast your pokémon are, they'll get revenge killed by some stupid and most random Gale Wings user. This ability is literally sponging out the fun in my perspective. I've been wanting to give a use to Whimsicott, but that's next to impossible with all the Gale Wings users in this tier. 'Just use a Levitating steel type' 'Why don't you use Heatran?'. Well, there we go again, they're forcing me to run a specific mon or specific typing with a specific ability in order to deal with that.

This set was meant to deal with Landorus-T and Mega Pinsir in specific. Aaand then they Flare Blitzed the shit out of me.
We all know the Gale Wings ability is over centralizing this metagame, and for a good reason. It's an over used ability for a good reason, but it's getting annoying now. I don't think I've seen a single team without a Gale Wings user. And this just makes you not use certain Grass and Fighting types with the random Gale Wings users lurking around the corner, please limit it or just get rid of it entirely. This also is sponging the fun out of this meta.

Landorus-T:
Landorus-T is really fucking good in this meta, I understand that now. But this thing is way too powerful and breaks down your walls without even trying. If it's Aerilate, all you have to click is Double Edge / Return. If it's Gale Wings, you click Brave Bird. It doesn't have a single strategy involved and it rips apart this meta game. This thing is ridiculously over powered. Give me something that deals with ALL sets it commonly runs in this tier and make sure that set has recovery. This thing just has to go, let people be creative and find a substitute for this guy, because Landorus-T is far from fun to deal with.

 

[MAMP]

I'm about to do what I do best; complaining.

Suicune: Why is Suicune still allowed in this meta? It's fucking broken. It's bulky, now gets Intimidate (as if it wasn't hard enough to take down already), gets Quiver Dance now and a few solid ass moves which he even gets STAB on, such as Hydro Pump and Scald. If you're not using a random ass Water Absorber or a Unaware Electric type, this thing sets up no problem at all. And setting up with something bulky is not hard to do either. I don't want to be forced to run something specifically to deal with that, doesn't that mean it's over centralizing?

I rest my case.

Gale Wings:
We all know this is a bullshit ass ability. And it doesn't matter how fast your pokémon are, they'll get revenge killed by some stupid and most random Gale Wings user. This ability is literally sponging out the fun in my perspective. I've been wanting to give a use to Whimsicott, but that's next to impossible with all the Gale Wings users in this tier. 'Just use a Levitating steel type' 'Why don't you use Heatran?'. Well, there we go again, they're forcing me to run a specific mon or specific typing with a specific ability in order to deal with that.

This set was meant to deal with Landorus-T and Mega Pinsir in specific. Aaand then they Flare Blitzed the shit out of me.
We all know the Gale Wings ability is over centralizing this metagame, and for a good reason. It's an over used ability for a good reason, but it's getting annoying now. I don't think I've seen a single team without a Gale Wings user. And this just makes you not use certain Grass and Fighting types with the random Gale Wings users lurking around the corner, please limit it or just get rid of it entirely. This also is sponging the fun out of this meta.

Landorus-T:
Landorus-T is really fucking good in this meta, I understand that now. But this thing is way too powerful and breaks down your walls without even trying. If it's Aerilate, all you have to click is Double Edge / Return. If it's Gale Wings, you click Brave Bird. It doesn't have a single strategy involved and it rips apart this meta game. This thing is ridiculously over powered. Give me something that deals with ALL sets it commonly runs in this tier and make sure that set has recovery. This thing just has to go, let people be creative and find a substitute for this guy, because Landorus-T is far from fun to deal with.

I dont really have much of an opinion on any of the things youre complaining about because I dont really play the meta all that much, but saying that something is broken because you have to run something specifically to deal with it is pretty dumb, because isnt that true of any strong Pokemon in any metagame? Its like saying that Keldeo is broken in OU because you have to run something bulky that resists its STABs. And im not really sure what point youre trying to make with the Steelix set, 'I made this set to counter a mon, but it didnt work because I failed to account for a move that it commonly runs, therefore it is broken' is hardly an effective argument.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

I'm about to do what I do best; complaining.

Suicune: Why is Suicune still allowed in this meta? It's fucking broken. It's bulky, now gets Intimidate (as if it wasn't hard enough to take down already), gets Quiver Dance now and a few solid ass moves which he even gets STAB on, such as Hydro Pump and Scald. If you're not using a random ass Water Absorber or a Unaware Electric type, this thing sets up no problem at all. And setting up with something bulky is not hard to do either. I don't want to be forced to run something specifically to deal with that, doesn't that mean it's over centralizing?

I rest my case.

Gale Wings:
We all know this is a bullshit ass ability. And it doesn't matter how fast your pokémon are, they'll get revenge killed by some stupid and most random Gale Wings user. This ability is literally sponging out the fun in my perspective. I've been wanting to give a use to Whimsicott, but that's next to impossible with all the Gale Wings users in this tier. 'Just use a Levitating steel type' 'Why don't you use Heatran?'. Well, there we go again, they're forcing me to run a specific mon or specific typing with a specific ability in order to deal with that.

This set was meant to deal with Landorus-T and Mega Pinsir in specific. Aaand then they Flare Blitzed the shit out of me.
We all know the Gale Wings ability is over centralizing this metagame, and for a good reason. It's an over used ability for a good reason, but it's getting annoying now. I don't think I've seen a single team without a Gale Wings user. And this just makes you not use certain Grass and Fighting types with the random Gale Wings users lurking around the corner, please limit it or just get rid of it entirely. This also is sponging the fun out of this meta.

Landorus-T:
Landorus-T is really fucking good in this meta, I understand that now. But this thing is way too powerful and breaks down your walls without even trying. If it's Aerilate, all you have to click is Double Edge / Return. If it's Gale Wings, you click Brave Bird. It doesn't have a single strategy involved and it rips apart this meta game. This thing is ridiculously over powered. Give me something that deals with ALL sets it commonly runs in this tier and make sure that set has recovery. This thing just has to go, let people be creative and find a substitute for this guy, because Landorus-T is far from fun to deal with.

If you complain about those three, you'll most likely complain about -atespeed, Protean, Primordial Sea, Desolate Land, etc. This meta is broken from the start, so idk if making it "less broken" would effect the meta.

If you need a Gale Wings and Mega Pinsir check, consider this.

Quagsire (Rhydon) @ Eviolite
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Rock Slide
- Recover
- Toxic
- Earthquake

Edit: If you are worried about Mega Pinsir Close Combat,

252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 140-166 (33.8 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This also works.

Solrock (Rhydon) @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

The Solrock set deals with all variants of Landorus T, including Aerilate, Gale Wings and Protean with Physical moves (unless it carries random shit like Grass Knot), though it probably doesn't stop Mega Pinsir.

Also has anyone tried this? Seems like it could be decent imo.

Porygon-Z (Rotom-F) @ Life Orb/Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock/Recover
- Agility/Nasty Plot/Trick

Porygon-Z gives it Adaptability BoltBeam and both Agility and Nasty Plot. It also resist Gale Wings and 2 out of 3 -ates. Looks like it could be decent imo.

 

[motherlove]

The gale wing hype kinda died down, I think I've seen more team without it then teams with it. And yeah, any rock type resists fire and flying and most likely has some physical bulk. Not to mention you can check it with Espeed / ice shard / sucker punch.

Also, if you fight a stall team while using landorus you'll soon realise that they have a/many ways to wall you. You don't destroy walls just by clicking buttons. I mean have you even played with landorus ?

Don't really have much of an opinion on suicune. If anything suicune isn't the issue. It's just that scald is such a stupid move.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Intimidate Suicune isn't really a huge problem. If you struggle with it, simply slap a Defiant/Competitive Pokemon on your team. Wigglytuff for example has a great special movepool (including BoltBeam, and specifically Thunderbolt for Suicune), as well as physical moves like Knock Off/Drain Punch for mixed sets and Competitive. Unaware Suicune can be beat by using Mold Breaker set up Pokemon like Shell Smash Gyarados from Huntail --> Mega Gyarados or inheriting from Mega Gyarados or Rampardos, who get Dragon Dance and Swords Dance respectively.

 

[Ghoul King]

Trapping

The thing about trapping is that it fundamentally removes a basic mechanic of the game -from your opponent, specifically. Not only that, but it can lead into knock-off consequences of doing that in other realms -Gothitelle Tricking a Choice item onto the opposing Pokemon completely removes the other player from the game as a participant. The only choices available to them are "wait to be allowed to play the game again" or forfeit. This is inherently uncompetitive and frustrating, but it' also the case that trapping just breaks how Pokemon works in the first place. The closest thing I can think of to an offensive equivalent would be having an Ability that disables the type chart, but only in ways that punish the opponent. (They can't hit you super effectively and they can't resist or be immune to your attack by type) And even that would be less broken than trapping -the ability to switch is core to basically everything that makes Pokemon work. The type chart is dumb as a gameplay mechanic if switching isn't a thing.

Wobbufet is fine, actually, because it uses trapping to make its core gimmick work -it's not a very functional or useful Pokemon if the opponent just uses the opportunity to switch to something not threatened by it, and even when it has something trapped it can only escape prediction shenanigans if the opponent is choice-locked or has a completely one-dimensional movepool (Four Physical attacks, say) This isn't true of Gothitelle, which is only held back by its merely OK stats, lack of on-demand recovery (Which it doesn't need against stall, while Rest protects it against Toxic), lack of priority, and in particular its meh Speed tier, which all restrict its ability to setup on a stallmon and then sweep an offensive team. But even against an offensive team, Gothitelle's presence actively inhibits the use of any sufficiently passive Pokemon.

I don't know if I would actually say that Gothitelle is an auto-win against stall, but it definitely does have very unhealthy features, like blocking the opponent from using a Pokemon by existing and once the Pokemon is in, Gothitelle will take down that Pokemon, the end, even if it takes a long time. (Gothitelle can trap and kill Chansey 100% reliably, Resting through Seismic Toss and using Taunt to force Chansey to run through its PP rapidly, until Chansey Struggles itself to death. There is literally nothing the Chansey player can do, not even get lucky, meaning Chansey is effectively dead the instant Gothitelle comes in) Even nightmarishly powerful attackers like Deoxy Attack Forme can't actually 100% for-sure make a specific threat die, on demand, because it was on the field for two whole turns in a row.

I personally am all for banning Gothitelle in... a lot of metas, honestly... (Off the top of my head Volturn Mayhem probably doesn't need to ban it, because trapping is hilariously ineffectual, but it's highly unusual)

I'm about to do what I do best; complaining.

Suicune: Why is Suicune still allowed in this meta? It's fucking broken. It's bulky, now gets Intimidate (as if it wasn't hard enough to take down already), gets Quiver Dance now and a few solid ass moves which he even gets STAB on, such as Hydro Pump and Scald. If you're not using a random ass Water Absorber or a Unaware Electric type, this thing sets up no problem at all. And setting up with something bulky is not hard to do either. I don't want to be forced to run something specifically to deal with that, doesn't that mean it's over centralizing?

I rest my case.

Gale Wings:
We all know this is a bullshit ass ability. And it doesn't matter how fast your pokémon are, they'll get revenge killed by some stupid and most random Gale Wings user. This ability is literally sponging out the fun in my perspective. I've been wanting to give a use to Whimsicott, but that's next to impossible with all the Gale Wings users in this tier. 'Just use a Levitating steel type' 'Why don't you use Heatran?'. Well, there we go again, they're forcing me to run a specific mon or specific typing with a specific ability in order to deal with that.

This set was meant to deal with Landorus-T and Mega Pinsir in specific. Aaand then they Flare Blitzed the shit out of me.
We all know the Gale Wings ability is over centralizing this metagame, and for a good reason. It's an over used ability for a good reason, but it's getting annoying now. I don't think I've seen a single team without a Gale Wings user. And this just makes you not use certain Grass and Fighting types with the random Gale Wings users lurking around the corner, please limit it or just get rid of it entirely. This also is sponging the fun out of this meta.

Landorus-T:
Landorus-T is really fucking good in this meta, I understand that now. But this thing is way too powerful and breaks down your walls without even trying. If it's Aerilate, all you have to click is Double Edge / Return. If it's Gale Wings, you click Brave Bird. It doesn't have a single strategy involved and it rips apart this meta game. This thing is ridiculously over powered. Give me something that deals with ALL sets it commonly runs in this tier and make sure that set has recovery. This thing just has to go, let people be creative and find a substitute for this guy, because Landorus-T is far from fun to deal with.

Suicune can be dealt with via a wide array of possible choices, regardless of what set it runs, and it's simply the case that most of these options are unpopular. (Toxic is surprisingly uncommon in Inheritance, and severely impairs all Suicune variants other than Poison Heal, which is overly passive due to the donors being low-compatibility with Suicune)

Masquerain as a donor might be broken though. Masqeurain Mega Venusaur is nasty (It gets to run Giga Drain!) and basically only stopped 100% reliably by Gale Wings, being lightning fast, very tough, etc. I haven't seen any other Pokemon inheriting from Masqeurain yet, but I suspect that's more because most people forget it exists.

Gale Wings is stopped hard by any bulky Rock type. You know, every Rock type ever. It's also the case that literally anything that resists Flying and outspeeds the Gale Wings Pokemon (Fairly easy to do if we're talking Landorus-Therian) is a huge threat right back to it.

There's options to deal with it just fine, and the only extent to which it limits use of Flying-vulnerable Pokemon is that they aren't very good choices for trying to setup and sweep. Meanwhile most Grass types don't get run because Grass is an all-around mediocre type and most Grass types have meh-to-awful stats. Meanwhile Fighting gets run plenty -in fact Throh is a popular wall! And honestly, xJownage is the only person I'm aware of who's still superhyped about Gale Wings -I see a decent number of teams run it, but it's not every team by any stretch of the imagination. Gale Wings is inherently limited in a lot of ways.

As for Landorus-Therian, all common sets are hard-walled by Physically Defensive Unaware Regirock, even aside from the popular Levitating Rhyperior/Eviolite Rhydon, every set hates Prankster Will O Wisp off a bulky Steel type (Inherit from Mega Banette), every set hates Physically Defensive Suicune (Unaware of Intimidate are both reliable against different things), and the list goes on and on. Landorus-Therian is popular, and good, but it's not actually unfightable nor does it even require overly narrow counters -everything I've listed is good in its own right for other reasons.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Victini (Electivire) @ Choice Scarf/Choice Band
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-Create
- Bolt Strike
- U-Turn
- Zen Headbutt/Quick Attack

RIP everything. The Electric type with the highest attack now has Bolt Strike AND V-Create for coverage. Plus they hit more often too because of Victory Star. With good momentum in U-Turn and decent coverage with Zen Headbutt or priority in Quick Attack this seems like a great wallbreaker. Also beats UnawareCune:
252 Atk Choice Band Electivire Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 402-474 (99.5 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
RIP

 

[Akumeoy]

Victini (Electivire) @ Choice Scarf/Choice Band
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-Create
- Bolt Strike
- U-Turn
- Zen Headbutt/Quick Attack

RIP everything. The Electric type with the highest attack now has Bolt Strike AND V-Create for coverage. Plus they hit more often too because of Victory Star. With good momentum in U-Turn and decent coverage with Zen Headbutt or priority in Quick Attack this seems like a great wallbreaker. Also beats UnawareCune:
252 Atk Choice Band Electivire Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 402-474 (99.5 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
RIP

I'd rather use something like this on Thundurus -- its Attack stat is slightly lower, and it has a Stealth Rock weakness, but it's substantially faster (notably outspeeding Gengar, Latios, and Lando-T without a scarf, and damn near everything with one) and can either bluff a special set or actually go mixed (specifically, Energy Ball hits some of the things that would otherwise wall it, like Rhydon and Regirock). Oh, and no Suicune is going to stay in on a powerful Electric type, so I'd argue that any calcs against it are irrelevant. I might also suggest a Life Orb -- if you happen to reveal your choice item and need to use V-Create on something, you don't have to worry about Suicune getting a free switch afterwards.

Anyways:

I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been said w/r/t Gothitelle. I'll go in for a ban FWIW, I hate that shit.

Suicune warrants a solid Electric- or Grass-type special attacker. Considering that its three important sets are Masquerain-Quiver Dance, Masquerain-utility, and Unaware: Desolate Land Heatran, Toxic, and phazing all at the very least force it out. Wallbreakers with Electric- and Grass-type attacks force out sets without Quiver Dance. Unaware can at least neutralize QD sets. I don't think it's too much to ask to have one or two of these on your team, because they're all rather good in their own right.

I would very much enjoy it if Gale Wings wasn't around -- it would free up teambuilding a good deal tbh. But there are some nasty things that it's keeping check... but it's also nasty in its own right. I don't know. Honestly, Extreme Speed is more restrictive than Gale Wings, in my experience -- and it's damn hard to reliably handle anything that various Extreme Speeders can throw at you. You either have to wall it or out-Espeed it, and even if you've figured out what their Espeed user is, Extreme Speed has fantastic coverage and boosting moves to go alongside it, so you don't always know what they're gonna do. But again, none of the things that Extreme Speed users might force you to run are subpar, and I don't think its effect on the meta is really negative, particularly for its ability to handle Gale Wings :P

Lando-T is exceptionally powerful, but its most destructive sets are ones that can be taken up by other 'mons nearly as well -- it only gets hard to manage when it has the potential to run Gale Wings. I'd sooner see Gale Wings gone than Lando.

 

[imas]

252 Atk Choice Band Electivire Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 402-474 (99.5 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
RIP

That calc is actually sad because even 252 attack band electrivire's bolt strike can fail to ohko cune without rocks on the field.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

That calc is actually sad because even 252 attack band electrivire's bolt strike can fail to ohko cune without rocks on the field.

93.8% chance to OHKO without rocks, I thought only my luck is bad enough to not get that inb5 miss

 

[Imperator Romanum]

The thing about trapping is that it fundamentally removes a basic mechanic of the game -from your opponent, specifically. Not only that, but it can lead into knock-off consequences of doing that in other realms -Gothitelle Tricking a Choice item onto the opposing Pokemon completely removes the other player from the game as a participant. The only choices available to them are "wait to be allowed to play the game again" or forfeit. This is inherently uncompetitive and frustrating, but it' also the case that trapping just breaks how Pokemon works in the first place. The closest thing I can think of to an offensive equivalent would be having an Ability that disables the type chart, but only in ways that punish the opponent. (They can't hit you super effectively and they can't resist or be immune to your attack by type) And even that would be less broken than trapping -the ability to switch is core to basically everything that makes Pokemon work. The type chart is dumb as a gameplay mechanic if switching isn't a thing.

Wobbufet is fine, actually, because it uses trapping to make its core gimmick work -it's not a very functional or useful Pokemon if the opponent just uses the opportunity to switch to something not threatened by it, and even when it has something trapped it can only escape prediction shenanigans if the opponent is choice-locked or has a completely one-dimensional movepool (Four Physical attacks, say) This isn't true of Gothitelle, which is only held back by its merely OK stats, lack of on-demand recovery (Which it doesn't need against stall, while Rest protects it against Toxic), lack of priority, and in particular its meh Speed tier, which all restrict its ability to setup on a stallmon and then sweep an offensive team. But even against an offensive team, Gothitelle's presence actively inhibits the use of any sufficiently passive Pokemon.

I don't know if I would actually say that Gothitelle is an auto-win against stall, but it definitely does have very unhealthy features, like blocking the opponent from using a Pokemon by existing and once the Pokemon is in, Gothitelle will take down that Pokemon, the end, even if it takes a long time. (Gothitelle can trap and kill Chansey 100% reliably, Resting through Seismic Toss and using Taunt to force Chansey to run through its PP rapidly, until Chansey Struggles itself to death. There is literally nothing the Chansey player can do, not even get lucky, meaning Chansey is effectively dead the instant Gothitelle comes in) Even nightmarishly powerful attackers like Deoxy Attack Forme can't actually 100% for-sure make a specific threat die, on demand, because it was on the field for two whole turns in a row.

I personally am all for banning Gothitelle in... a lot of metas, honestly... (Off the top of my head Volturn Mayhem probably doesn't need to ban it, because trapping is hilariously ineffectual, but it's highly unusual)



Suicune can be dealt with via a wide array of possible choices, regardless of what set it runs, and it's simply the case that most of these options are unpopular. (Toxic is surprisingly uncommon in Inheritance, and severely impairs all Suicune variants other than Poison Heal, which is overly passive due to the donors being low-compatibility with Suicune)

Masquerain as a donor might be broken though. Masqeurain Mega Venusaur is nasty (It gets to run Giga Drain!) and basically only stopped 100% reliably by Gale Wings, being lightning fast, very tough, etc. I haven't seen any other Pokemon inheriting from Masqeurain yet, but I suspect that's more because most people forget it exists.

Gale Wings is stopped hard by any bulky Rock type. You know, every Rock type ever. It's also the case that literally anything that resists Flying and outspeeds the Gale Wings Pokemon (Fairly easy to do if we're talking Landorus-Therian) is a huge threat right back to it.

There's options to deal with it just fine, and the only extent to which it limits use of Flying-vulnerable Pokemon is that they aren't very good choices for trying to setup and sweep. Meanwhile most Grass types don't get run because Grass is an all-around mediocre type and most Grass types have meh-to-awful stats. Meanwhile Fighting gets run plenty -in fact Throh is a popular wall! And honestly, xJownage is the only person I'm aware of who's still superhyped about Gale Wings -I see a decent number of teams run it, but it's not every team by any stretch of the imagination. Gale Wings is inherently limited in a lot of ways.

As for Landorus-Therian, all common sets are hard-walled by Physically Defensive Unaware Regirock, even aside from the popular Levitating Rhyperior/Eviolite Rhydon, every set hates Prankster Will O Wisp off a bulky Steel type (Inherit from Mega Banette), every set hates Physically Defensive Suicune (Unaware of Intimidate are both reliable against different things), and the list goes on and on. Landorus-Therian is popular, and good, but it's not actually unfightable nor does it even require overly narrow counters -everything I've listed is good in its own right for other reasons.

Though Wobbuffet and Trapinch have very little usage in OU I think it should be a stance on principle. Shadow tag and trapping has the ability to 100%, regardless of luck, to take down a pokemon. It doesn't matter how bad stats it posses. Any single pokemon with a trapping ability has the ability to take down one or more pokemon, regardless of luck, skill and prediction. that is fundamentally unhealthy.

EDIT: What I truly want to see is
A Landorus-t and Shadow tag trapping suspect test, one that doesn't take forever.
Then I'd like a longer suspect test of Suicune

 

[Ghoul King]

Neither Trapinch nor Wobbuffet is actually capable of taking down an opposing Pokemon 100% reliably. It's not about stats, it's about movepool. Wobbuffet can only take down an enemy with good prediction/blind luck (Or the opponent's active cooperation), while Trapinch basically has to switch in on something bizarre like a Choiced Pokemon that chooses to set Stealth Rock to get a for-sure kill.

Even Gothitelle would be only semi-broken if it lacked Trick and thus couldn't Choice-lock unfortunate walls, with no option for them to escape and no ability to take down Gothitelle itself because they're too passive/weak at attacking. At least at that point they'd have good odds of being able to wear down its PP, making it a small win for the Gothitelle user rather than a big win. It wouldn't help some cases -Gothitelle with Leftovers, Taunt, and Rest is an auto-kill on Chansey if it's not, like, carrying Body Slam, which still requires luck- but Trapinch and Wobbuffet really just do not have the movepool to 100% for-sure kill something like Gothitelle/Dugtrio/Mega Gengar. (Dugtrio has enough offensive presence and Speed to potentially trap a fragile Electric type and kill it, or something in that vein, it's just that in most metas the benefit of this utility is far too low to justify the teamslot) And of course Dugtrio gets to team up with Eject Button Durant Entrainment-ing Truant to then set-up and sweep. (Which Dugtrio can absolutely do, between its Speed and access to priority -basically a fast Talonflame can probably take it out, and hey it's free to run a Focus Sash, ruining that)

Trapping is a bad mechanic and I hate that Game Freak invented it and hate that they gave it to anything other than Wobbuffet/Pokemon with similar issues, but Gothitelle really is the only OU-legal Pokemon that's just plain broken with it. (Well, maybe Eviolite Gothorita as well. Maybe)

I don't really see any reason why Landorus-Therian should be suspected, nor Suicune. They don't really stand head-and-shoulders above everything else in my experience. They're very solid, but not "how do you deal with this again?"

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Neither Trapinch nor Wobbuffet is actually capable of taking down an opposing Pokemon 100% reliably. It's not about stats, it's about movepool. Wobbuffet can only take down an enemy with good prediction/blind luck (Or the opponent's active cooperation), while Trapinch basically has to switch in on something bizarre like a Choiced Pokemon that chooses to set Stealth Rock to get a for-sure kill.

Even Gothitelle would be only semi-broken if it lacked Trick and thus couldn't Choice-lock unfortunate walls, with no option for them to escape and no ability to take down Gothitelle itself because they're too passive/weak at attacking. At least at that point they'd have good odds of being able to wear down its PP, making it a small win for the Gothitelle user rather than a big win. It wouldn't help some cases -Gothitelle with Leftovers, Taunt, and Rest is an auto-kill on Chansey if it's not, like, carrying Body Slam, which still requires luck- but Trapinch and Wobbuffet really just do not have the movepool to 100% for-sure kill something like Gothitelle/Dugtrio/Mega Gengar. (Dugtrio has enough offensive presence and Speed to potentially trap a fragile Electric type and kill it, or something in that vein, it's just that in most metas the benefit of this utility is far too low to justify the teamslot) And of course Dugtrio gets to team up with Eject Button Durant Entrainment-ing Truant to then set-up and sweep. (Which Dugtrio can absolutely do, between its Speed and access to priority -basically a fast Talonflame can probably take it out, and hey it's free to run a Focus Sash, ruining that)

Trapping is a bad mechanic and I hate that Game Freak invented it and hate that they gave it to anything other than Wobbuffet/Pokemon with similar issues, but Gothitelle really is the only OU-legal Pokemon that's just plain broken with it. (Well, maybe Eviolite Gothorita as well. Maybe)

I don't really see any reason why Landorus-Therian should be suspected, nor Suicune. They don't really stand head-and-shoulders above everything else in my experience. They're very solid, but not "how do you deal with this again?"

Something like Conkuldurr. If it carriest Assault vest it 100% loses to Wobbuffet
Heatran dies to Trapinch if it's not running an obscure set or carries some massive offensive presence.

 

[Ghoul King]

Frankly, if someone is going to run Trapinch just to hard-counter Heatran, more power to them. It's a dead slot otherwise, which is to say it's, at best, viable for counterteaming someone you already know the team of, and even then it's nearly useless once Heatran goes down, so that better be shifting you from "maybe win/can't win" to "probably win/will win" or it's still not really worth it.

Actually, depending on the rest of Conkeldurr's movepool, it may be able to chip Wobbuffet down with Poison Jab or the like, taking a Counter or two and hopefully Poisoning Wobbuffet, and then land a finishing blow with a Knock Off. Alternatively, if Wobbuffet tries to Encore it in anticipation of this, and the move was Knock Off, Wobbuffet is essentially dead already. Prediction still controls the results of the matchup, which is why Wobbuffet isn't broken.

A trapper hard-countering extremely narrow Pokemon, even when those Pokemon are high-tier Pokemon, is not necessarily a problem in and of itself, oddly enough. These two still have such high costs to carrying them, even when they can be used to auto-kill something (Which runs into the problem that both of them have to fear double switching and forced-switching creating the scenario of them being useful), that it's extremely questionable whether they're worth running -and even if a trapper existed who was, say, a hard-counter to Mega Rayquaza (And otherwise nearly useless) that would simply ensure it had a place on teams, not necessarily ensure that it was broken. (Magnezone is a real example of this in OU, being OU primarily because of Skarmory -though it helps that Skarmory has Sturdy, Whirlwind, and Roost, since it means Magnezone is only an auto-kill against some Skarmory)

But trapping is dumb regardless, I do agree with that.

 

[I like donkeys]

Though Wobbuffet and Trapinch have very little usage in OU I think it should be a stance on principle. Shadow tag and trapping has the ability to 100%, regardless of luck, to take down a pokemon. It doesn't matter how bad stats it posses. Any single pokemon with a trapping ability has the ability to take down one or more pokemon, regardless of luck, skill and prediction. that is fundamentally unhealthy.

EDIT: What I truly want to see is
A Landorus-t and Shadow tag trapping suspect test, one that doesn't take forever.
Then I'd like a longer suspect test of Suicune

In my opinion, a Pokemon should be banned if it's unhealthy for the meta, for example if a threat is far more powerful and potent than other Pokemon that have similar roles (think Regigigas and Kyurem-B as wallbreakers) then they should be banned. Another example is the trapping ability shadow tag, the only Pokemon that can legally use shadow tag are the Wobbuffet and Gothitelle evolution family. However, despite Shadow Tag being one of the most uncompetitive things in Pokemon, Gothitelle is the only Pokemon that can really make an unhealthy impact with this ability. Gothitelle's prevolutions are too weak to reliably take on stall, and the Wobbuffet family is meant to tackle offense, which as we all know is MUCH more powerful and potent than in OU.

Niches the following trapping Pokemon can accomplish:

Gothitelle - For a full understanding of what Goth can do you should check out page 43 of this thread, as other people have probably explained better than what i'm doing. Basically, Gothitelle excels at dismantling stall cores more efficiently and reliably than ANY other Pokemon in Inheritance. While it's stats are mediocre, they are mediocre enough so that Gothitelle has just what it needs (in terms of bulk and speed) to take on stall.
Gothorita - Outclassed by Gothitelle in every aspect. However, if Gothitelle get's banned but not Gothorita, then Gothorita might be useful for doing Gothitelle's original job, but it's significant decrease in bulk and speed give me equally significant doubts.
Gothita - Completely useless regardless of whether or not Gothorita and Gothitelle get banned, will only be able to take on stall teams that are 100% passive, as it's 45/50/65 defenses are downright pathetic.

Wobbuffet - It's niche back in OU was to trap offensive pokes (usually scarfed mons) and take them out with countercoat, it had almost no utility against stall. However in inheritance, offense is much stronger than in OU so Wobbuffet cannot reliably enforce the 50/50s that it does in OU (just to clarify Wob creates 50/50s via CounterCoat/Encore versus the opponent's attacking move/setup move, but here if Wob encores an attacking move it's often a 2HKO and if the setup as Wob uses CounterCoat it's often an OHKO).
Wynaut - Much less bulky than Wob, easily taken out. Never worth using.

Dugtrio - Now that Arena Trap is banned from being inherited, Dugtrio is the only viable(?) user of arena trap. Dugtrio's niche in OU was trapping and OHKO'ing Heatran, among other less relevant things. But here, Dugtrio is downright terrrible. With base 80 attack, it's not OHKOing anything unless it's been sufficiently weakened. And to make matters worse, Dugtrio's number 1 target - Heatran - commonly runs levitate now, and the other popular steel types being Doublade and Aegislash cannot be trapped anyway.

Magnet Pull - While Magnet Pull can be inherited, it suffers similar problems to Dugtrio where the most prevalent and troublesome steel types don't care for Magpull anyway. Making Magpull almost useless.


Of all those Pokemon, the only one that makes an unhealthy impact is Gothitelle.
This reminds of the chatter suspect in Balanced Hackmons a while ago. Chatter is uncompetitive because it forces 50/50s with your opponent, and whoever comes out on top is decided more on luck than anything else. But wait, other moves such as swagger and confuse ray also cause 50/50s with the opponent and are uncompetitive in that way, why aren't they being suspected? Simply because chatter has many more redeeming factors than the other confusion inducers, including but not limited too: Bypassing magic bounce, taunt, and substitute, having a decent base power, and being a flying move so it can be boosted by gale wings (Mega Rayquaza says hi).
Gothitelle is in a similar situation where it's much more powerful and unhealthy than similar contenders such as Wob and Duggy, and is the only one that will be considered a threat to your team (which in this case is your stall team).

So in my opinion, BAN GOTHITELLE, don't ban shadow tag and arena trap entirely.

Also in response to your post, I don't think neither Suicune NOR Landorus-T should be suspected. I mean if anything, although i don't have too much of a problem with it, i think Gale Wings should be the one to discuss, not Landorus-T.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

In my opinion, a Pokemon should be banned if it's unhealthy for the meta, for example if a threat is far more powerful and potent than other Pokemon that have similar roles (think Regigigas and Kyurem-B as wallbreakers) then they should be banned. Another example is the trapping ability shadow tag, the only Pokemon that can legally use shadow tag are the Wobbuffet and Gothitelle evolution family. However, despite Shadow Tag being one of the most uncompetitive things in Pokemon, Gothitelle is the only Pokemon that can really make an unhealthy impact with this ability. Gothitelle's prevolutions are too weak to reliably take on stall, and the Wobbuffet family is meant to tackle offense, which as we all know is MUCH more powerful and potent than in OU.

Niches the following trapping Pokemon can accomplish:

Gothitelle - For a full understanding of what Goth can do you should check out page 43 of this thread, as other people have probably explained better than what i'm doing. Basically, Gothitelle excels at dismantling stall cores more efficiently and reliably than ANY other Pokemon in Inheritance. While it's stats are mediocre, they are mediocre enough so that Gothitelle has just what it needs (in terms of bulk and speed) to take on stall.
Gothorita - Outclassed by Gothitelle in every aspect. However, if Gothitelle get's banned but not Gothorita, then Gothorita might be useful for doing Gothitelle's original job, but it's significant decrease in bulk and speed give me equally significant doubts.
Gothita - Completely useless regardless of whether or not Gothorita and Gothitelle get banned, will only be able to take on stall teams that are 100% passive, as it's 45/50/65 defenses are downright pathetic.

Wobbuffet - It's niche back in OU was to trap offensive pokes (usually scarfed mons) and take them out with countercoat, it had almost no utility against stall. However in inheritance, offense is much stronger than in OU so Wobbuffet cannot reliably enforce the 50/50s that it does in OU (just to clarify Wob creates 50/50s via CounterCoat/Encore versus the opponent's attacking move/setup move, but here if Wob encores an attacking move it's often a 2HKO and if the setup as Wob uses CounterCoat it's often an OHKO).
Wynaut - Much less bulky than Wob, easily taken out. Never worth using.

Dugtrio - Now that Arena Trap is banned from being inherited, Dugtrio is the only viable(?) user of arena trap. Dugtrio's niche in OU was trapping and OHKO'ing Heatran, among other less relevant things. But here, Dugtrio is downright terrrible. With base 80 attack, it's not OHKOing anything unless it's been sufficiently weakened. And to make matters worse, Dugtrio's number 1 target - Heatran - commonly runs levitate now, and the other popular steel types being Doublade and Aegislash cannot be trapped anyway.

Magnet Pull - While Magnet Pull can be inherited, it suffers similar problems to Dugtrio where the most prevalent and troublesome steel types don't care for Magpull anyway. Making Magpull almost useless.


Of all those Pokemon, the only one that makes an unhealthy impact is Gothitelle.
This reminds of the chatter suspect in Balanced Hackmons a while ago. Chatter is uncompetitive because it forces 50/50s with your opponent, and whoever comes out on top is decided more on luck than anything else. But wait, other moves such as swagger and confuse ray also cause 50/50s with the opponent and are uncompetitive in that way, why aren't they being suspected? Simply because chatter has many more redeeming factors than the other confusion inducers, including but not limited too: Bypassing magic bounce, taunt, and substitute, having a decent base power, and being a flying move so it can be boosted by gale wings (Mega Rayquaza says hi).
Gothitelle is in a similar situation where it's much more powerful and unhealthy than similar contenders such as Wob and Duggy, and is the only one that will be considered a threat to your team (which in this case is your stall team).

So in my opinion, BAN GOTHITELLE, don't ban shadow tag and arena trap entirely.

Also in response to your post, I don't think neither Suicune NOR Landorus-T should be suspected. I mean if anything, although i don't have too much of a problem with it, i think Gale Wings should be the one to discuss, not Landorus-T.

Why suspect Gale wings? If you suspect Gale wings you're essentially suspecting Talonflame as a donor. Talonflame has three attacking moves it utilizes, a powerful fire attack (flare blitz), a powerful flying attack (brave bird) and lastly, momentum u-turn. This leaves Talonflame walled by:
A rock type
A flash fire steel type
A flash fire electric type
Bulky water types
Intimidate users of various types

Why not suspect Landorus-T? You have something with insane power, impossible to predict what it's running and it's completely uncounterable

 

[Throbulator36]

Trying to say that Suicune is broken is like trying to say that chansey is broken in ou.