Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

So I just played a battle against Chopin Alkaninoff. He uses hyper offence with gothitelle. I used stall.
I'm here to show how broken trapping in general is, and how all forms of ability trapping deserves to get banned, not only Arena trap. Shadow tag also needs to go.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224691823

In our battle it was loss by matchup. He had his Gothitelle with Choice scarf, rest, psyshock and I'd assume thunderbolt. He didn't show me. Through out the match I'm constantly pressured. There's a incident in the start of the match. I'm facing his +2 Mega Medicham with my Unaware Cresselia. I can beat his Mega Medicham, but if he doubles into Gothitelle I'm screwed. He would trick my Cresselia choice scarf and then he could sweep me late game with Mega Medicham, that's a game over scenario. So what do I do? I double into skarmory, as it carries whirlwind and can get rid of Gothitelle giving me another chance. So I do that, he stays in and Crunches me. +1 Crunch does 45% to my Skarmory, leaving me severely weakened. But I also need skarmory, if I don't have it I lose to Landorus-T's brave bird. So I'm panicking again, I don't want to go into Cresselia as that would leave me in the same position as last time. I switch out to Chansey, sacking it (keep in my I needed my Chansey for Heatran). I go into Suicune and I scald him, he switches out to Gothitelle. He tricks me the scarf has I encore him, hoping he would trick my lefites back. Nop, he switches into Mega Medicham. I encore him into Swords dance. I switch out to Skarmory to Defog and he continues to set up. Essentially what he did was he ended up getting to +6 and pressuring me into my Cresselia, he then got defence drops with crunch ect ect. And then in the end he trick the toxic orb from my Hippo and preceded to trick it onto my Cresselia. GAME OVER.

Was there a way for me to win? Yeah, I could predict perfectly for a close to 80 turn battle and then I would probably win, is that expected of anyone? No.

Is there a way around Shadow tag? Other than predicting perfectly? No. I can run shed shell but then he could just outright sweep me without Shadow tag as 3HKOs will become 2HKOs. Again, win by match up.

I can keep throwing statistics around and such. But essentially you can watch that battle, put yourself in my shoes and try to win. Chopin can essentially go on the ladder and every stall team he encounters has to forfeit. I chatted with Eviolite goomy in the chat after the match for a good 10 minutes. And I'd like everyone to read that before commenting. Thank you



Alljokesaside forfeited.

Chopin Alkaninoff won the battle!
Ladder updating...
AllJokesAside's rating: 1449 → 1428
(-21 for losing)
Chopin Alkaninoff's rating: 1422 → 1443
(+21 for winning)
★AllJokesAside: Ugh
Chopin Alkaninoff left.
eviolite goomy: :\
I like donkeys joined.
eviolite goomy: I get it
★AllJokesAside: I really hope you
★AllJokesAside: do
★AllJokesAside: this is the perfect depiction of why shadow tag is uncompedetive
★AllJokesAside: there's nothing I can do
★AllJokesAside: there's no way around it
★AllJokesAside: you lose by match up
I like donkeys: yup
★AllJokesAside: And Chopin knows this
★AllJokesAside: He's still abusing it
★AllJokesAside: I hope you two will help me get it banned
eviolite goomy: well
I like donkeys left.
eviolite goomy: I'd rather face that gothitelle than stall myself
★AllJokesAside: Supporting it would be good enough.
★AllJokesAside: What do you use?
★AllJokesAside: what playstyle
eviolite goomy: bulky offence
★AllJokesAside: exactly
eviolite goomy: I hate facing stall :p
★AllJokesAside: it's easier to handle
★AllJokesAside: since your team isn't as passive
★AllJokesAside: mine truly is
★AllJokesAside: I can't 2HKO him
★AllJokesAside: with anything
★AllJokesAside: looking at his team, I beat him
★AllJokesAside: Easily
★AllJokesAside: without his gothitelle
eviolite goomy: I don't know how to feel about this
★AllJokesAside: Talk to me
★AllJokesAside: why are you on the fence
★AllJokesAside: Its just like
★AllJokesAside: imagine this
★AllJokesAside: you have something so fast
★AllJokesAside: something so powerful
★AllJokesAside: that i can take out ANYTHING on your team
★AllJokesAside: but it wont sweep you
★AllJokesAside: it'll die from recoil after three kills
★AllJokesAside: but it doesn't matter if you
★AllJokesAside: switch
★AllJokesAside: or anything
★AllJokesAside: that's how trapping works against stall
★AllJokesAside: you can put
★AllJokesAside: sitrus berry on your mon
★AllJokesAside: and it will survive
★AllJokesAside: but then you can't use choice scarf
★AllJokesAside: and you're suddenly sweeped by mega lucario
★AllJokesAside: that's how shadow tag works
eviolite goomy: alright, a legit strategy that's super effective against stall teams
★AllJokesAside: yeah
★AllJokesAside: but the point is
eviolite goomy: some strats beat other strats, that's how this game works, right?
★AllJokesAside: you truly can't do anything
★AllJokesAside: but there are ways around it
★AllJokesAside: I've played against all other types of playstyle
★AllJokesAside: stall, ho
★AllJokesAside: lots of wallbreakers
★AllJokesAside: I played it smart, worked around it.
★AllJokesAside: predicted
★AllJokesAside: I won
★AllJokesAside: But I can't do that against shadow tag
★AllJokesAside: it doesn't just beat stall
★AllJokesAside: it's not even a fair chance
★AllJokesAside: there's zero chance of my 3-4 mons countering the rest of his team
Clefable, Clefairy
eviolite goomy: I guess you're right
eviolite goomy: I don't know what it feels like, because I never play pure stall myself
★AllJokesAside: It feels stressful
★AllJokesAside: I can't switch like I want to
★AllJokesAside: I can't bring out my counter
★AllJokesAside: because he might doubl
★AllJokesAside: and trap it
★AllJokesAside: if you see earlier in the game
★AllJokesAside: he had his Medicham in on my Cresselia
★AllJokesAside: it was at +2
★AllJokesAside: While I can handle Mega Medicham with Cresselia
★AllJokesAside: I can't risk staying in
★AllJokesAside: In the chance of him doubling into Gothitelle
★AllJokesAside: I would've lost then
★AllJokesAside: As Cresselia is my best way to handle Mega Medicham
★AllJokesAside: Which is why I ended up forfeiting
★AllJokesAside: When I ended up doing in that senario was switching to Skarmory
★AllJokesAside: Losing 45%
★AllJokesAside: from a +1 Crunch
★AllJokesAside: Now I'm limited again
★AllJokesAside: I can't switch out
★AllJokesAside: I mean, I can't stay in
★AllJokesAside: If I do that he'll CC and I'll die
★AllJokesAside: So I think I went into Suicune
★AllJokesAside: now he doubles
eviolite goomy: I get it
★AllJokesAside: and my suicune is crippled
★AllJokesAside: Good
eviolite goomy: it's all about match up, right?
eviolite goomy: and focusing on match up makes it less competitive
★AllJokesAside: Mhm
★AllJokesAside: But something like
★AllJokesAside: HO doesn't appreciate, what, balance righ?
★AllJokesAside: But HO can still beat balance
★AllJokesAside: I can't beat this
eviolite goomy: exactly
★AllJokesAside: Chopin
★AllJokesAside: Is too good
★AllJokesAside: he's not going to make mistakrs
★AllJokesAside: he's going to play it safe
★AllJokesAside: and he'll win
★AllJokesAside: every single time
eviolite goomy: alright I'd be pretty pissed too if I kept running into the same guy who'd constantly counter my playstyle without too much effort
★AllJokesAside: mhm
★AllJokesAside: You're going to support me then? :) Your word pulls a lot of weigh
★AllJokesAside: t
★AllJokesAside: Has a lot of weight*
eviolite goomy: but I'm still not sure if I'd really bad gothitelle
eviolite goomy: *ban
★AllJokesAside: Ban trapping moves
★AllJokesAside: At least in inheritance
★AllJokesAside: where stall is the dominant playstyle, and is so common
★AllJokesAside: Since chopin will beat every single stall team he meets
★AllJokesAside: without any effort lol...
eviolite goomy: the thing that has me thinking here is why should goth only be banned in inh and not in normal tiers?
★AllJokesAside: Because in OU there's two reasons
★AllJokesAside: Megas are more common
★AllJokesAside: I've seen teams in Inheritance without Megas
★AllJokesAside: As there aren't that many viable ones
★AllJokesAside: And two, OU is overal more offensive
★AllJokesAside: the only metas where Shadow tag isn't banned is Ubers and OU
★AllJokesAside: Because those two metas have such a power creep
★AllJokesAside: You're not trapping a Landorus-T
★AllJokesAside: you're not trapping a Gliscor, or a landorus
★AllJokesAside: All of these mons are so powerful or provide enough utility or momentum
★AllJokesAside: That gothitelle isn't as powerful
★AllJokesAside: It's a more offensive metagame
★AllJokesAside: While in UU and RU, NU ect
eviolite goomy: but now it kind of feels like you're banning goth just because it forces the inh meta to shape up differently from how you want it to be
★AllJokesAside: T
★AllJokesAside: I've been beaten before with this team
★AllJokesAside: Some people used other strategies besides Trapping
★AllJokesAside: had the right wallbreakers
★AllJokesAside: stallbreakers
★AllJokesAside: and they beat me
★AllJokesAside: fair enough, I lose sometimes
★AllJokesAside: but this isn't even giving me a fighting chance
★AllJokesAside: Its also a reward scheme
★AllJokesAside: I'm going to go out on a limb and say I have the best stall team in Inheritance
eviolite goomy: fine with me
★AllJokesAside: I was Number one on the ladder for a couple of days with it
★AllJokesAside: It took me a long time to build
★AllJokesAside: took me a long time to learn how to play stall
★AllJokesAside: as it's a difficult thing to learn
★AllJokesAside: you have to be patient
★AllJokesAside: TL;DR it's harder than it looks
★AllJokesAside: That should be rewarded
★AllJokesAside: It should be rewarded with a high ranking
★AllJokesAside: and a high WR
★AllJokesAside: But I can't prepare for this
★AllJokesAside: I can switch out as many mons I want to o
★AllJokesAside: But it wont change the fact that I'll either lose to shadow tag
★AllJokesAside: or I'll have to centralise to the extent where Medicham just sweeps me regardless
★AllJokesAside: Thoughs?
eviolite goomy: I was going to say that stall might not be as viable then, but never mind I'm biased
eviolite goomy: well
eviolite goomy: I see what you're getting at
★AllJokesAside: It's very viable
★AllJokesAside: i don't lose a lot with this team
★AllJokesAside: Of the 10 loses i've had in total
★AllJokesAside: six of them were to lagging
★AllJokesAside: two to someone outplaying me
★AllJokesAside: two to Chopin
★AllJokesAside: besides Trapping and lagging
★AllJokesAside: I only lose 1:25
eviolite goomy: :|
★AllJokesAside: Alright, I'm writing a post on the forums
★AllJokesAside: I'll use this conversation, all right?
★AllJokesAside: Copy and paste it basically
eviolite goomy: it's fine
★AllJokesAside: Thank you for listing :)
eviolite goomy: ok I agree gothitelle might be a bit cheap
eviolite goomy: but there's no reason for me to personally make an effort to ban it since, I'm not bothered by myself at all
eviolite goomy: *by it
★AllJokesAside: well I can't force you too, but I've used all playstyles and I like to help all of them

If anybody is tried after that read, here is a couple one liners to cheer you up.

You can never lose a homing pigeon - if your homing pigeon doesn't come back, what you've lost is a pigeon.

You don't need a parachute to go skydiving. You need a parachute to go skydiving twice

My friend gave me his Epi-Pen as he was dying.
It seemed very important to him that I have it.

Say what you want about deaf people.

My grandfather has the heart of a lion and a lifetime ban at the zoo.

Working in a mirror factory is something I can totally see myself doing

Well, I admit that Gothitelle is cheap. Because of this battle, I support Arena Trap ban, which is currently suspected. But note that Shadow Tag is banned from the beginning and you can use banned abilities if the poke doesn't inherit. This completely follows the rule.

In my opinion, Gothitelle is even weaker here, because it can't inherit, while you can use a wall that's bulkier than in any OU standards because of inheriting moves + ability. I don't see why we should ban Gothitelle when OU doesn't ban it (its exactly the same as OU). It's much stronger there, because the pokes in OU can't inherit anything, which makes Gothitelle have a much easier time in OU than here. If you need to ban Gothitelle, suggest in OU first instead, because it is not banned in OU, and this uses OU banlist.

 

[I like donkeys]

So I just played a battle against Chopin Alkaninoff. He uses hyper offence with gothitelle. I used stall.
I'm here to show how broken trapping in general is, and how all forms of ability trapping deserves to get banned, not only Arena trap. Shadow tag also needs to go.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224691823

In our battle it was loss by matchup. He had his Gothitelle with Choice scarf, rest, psyshock and I'd assume thunderbolt. He didn't show me. Through out the match I'm constantly pressured. There's a incident in the start of the match. I'm facing his +2 Mega Medicham with my Unaware Cresselia. I can beat his Mega Medicham, but if he doubles into Gothitelle I'm screwed. He would trick my Cresselia choice scarf and then he could sweep me late game with Mega Medicham, that's a game over scenario. So what do I do? I double into skarmory, as it carries whirlwind and can get rid of Gothitelle giving me another chance. So I do that, he stays in and Crunches me. +1 Crunch does 45% to my Skarmory, leaving me severely weakened. But I also need skarmory, if I don't have it I lose to Landorus-T's brave bird. So I'm panicking again, I don't want to go into Cresselia as that would leave me in the same position as last time. I switch out to Chansey, sacking it (keep in my I needed my Chansey for Heatran). I go into Suicune and I scald him, he switches out to Gothitelle. He tricks me the scarf has I encore him, hoping he would trick my lefites back. Nop, he switches into Mega Medicham. I encore him into Swords dance. I switch out to Skarmory to Defog and he continues to set up. Essentially what he did was he ended up getting to +6 and pressuring me into my Cresselia, he then got defence drops with crunch ect ect. And then in the end he trick the toxic orb from my Hippo and preceded to trick it onto my Cresselia. GAME OVER.

Was there a way for me to win? Yeah, I could predict perfectly for a close to 80 turn battle and then I would probably win, is that expected of anyone? No.

Is there a way around Shadow tag? Other than predicting perfectly? No. I can run shed shell but then he could just outright sweep me without Shadow tag as 3HKOs will become 2HKOs. Again, win by match up.

I can keep throwing statistics around and such. But essentially you can watch that battle, put yourself in my shoes and try to win. Chopin can essentially go on the ladder and every stall team he encounters has to forfeit. I chatted with Eviolite goomy in the chat after the match for a good 10 minutes. And I'd like everyone to read that before commenting. Thank you



Alljokesaside forfeited.

Chopin Alkaninoff won the battle!
Ladder updating...
AllJokesAside's rating: 1449 → 1428
(-21 for losing)
Chopin Alkaninoff's rating: 1422 → 1443
(+21 for winning)
★AllJokesAside: Ugh
Chopin Alkaninoff left.
eviolite goomy: :\
I like donkeys joined.
eviolite goomy: I get it
★AllJokesAside: I really hope you
★AllJokesAside: do
★AllJokesAside: this is the perfect depiction of why shadow tag is uncompedetive
★AllJokesAside: there's nothing I can do
★AllJokesAside: there's no way around it
★AllJokesAside: you lose by match up
I like donkeys: yup
★AllJokesAside: And Chopin knows this
★AllJokesAside: He's still abusing it
★AllJokesAside: I hope you two will help me get it banned
eviolite goomy: well
I like donkeys left.
eviolite goomy: I'd rather face that gothitelle than stall myself
★AllJokesAside: Supporting it would be good enough.
★AllJokesAside: What do you use?
★AllJokesAside: what playstyle
eviolite goomy: bulky offence
★AllJokesAside: exactly
eviolite goomy: I hate facing stall :p
★AllJokesAside: it's easier to handle
★AllJokesAside: since your team isn't as passive
★AllJokesAside: mine truly is
★AllJokesAside: I can't 2HKO him
★AllJokesAside: with anything
★AllJokesAside: looking at his team, I beat him
★AllJokesAside: Easily
★AllJokesAside: without his gothitelle
eviolite goomy: I don't know how to feel about this
★AllJokesAside: Talk to me
★AllJokesAside: why are you on the fence
★AllJokesAside: Its just like
★AllJokesAside: imagine this
★AllJokesAside: you have something so fast
★AllJokesAside: something so powerful
★AllJokesAside: that i can take out ANYTHING on your team
★AllJokesAside: but it wont sweep you
★AllJokesAside: it'll die from recoil after three kills
★AllJokesAside: but it doesn't matter if you
★AllJokesAside: switch
★AllJokesAside: or anything
★AllJokesAside: that's how trapping works against stall
★AllJokesAside: you can put
★AllJokesAside: sitrus berry on your mon
★AllJokesAside: and it will survive
★AllJokesAside: but then you can't use choice scarf
★AllJokesAside: and you're suddenly sweeped by mega lucario
★AllJokesAside: that's how shadow tag works
eviolite goomy: alright, a legit strategy that's super effective against stall teams
★AllJokesAside: yeah
★AllJokesAside: but the point is
eviolite goomy: some strats beat other strats, that's how this game works, right?
★AllJokesAside: you truly can't do anything
★AllJokesAside: but there are ways around it
★AllJokesAside: I've played against all other types of playstyle
★AllJokesAside: stall, ho
★AllJokesAside: lots of wallbreakers
★AllJokesAside: I played it smart, worked around it.
★AllJokesAside: predicted
★AllJokesAside: I won
★AllJokesAside: But I can't do that against shadow tag
★AllJokesAside: it doesn't just beat stall
★AllJokesAside: it's not even a fair chance
★AllJokesAside: there's zero chance of my 3-4 mons countering the rest of his team
Clefable, Clefairy
eviolite goomy: I guess you're right
eviolite goomy: I don't know what it feels like, because I never play pure stall myself
★AllJokesAside: It feels stressful
★AllJokesAside: I can't switch like I want to
★AllJokesAside: I can't bring out my counter
★AllJokesAside: because he might doubl
★AllJokesAside: and trap it
★AllJokesAside: if you see earlier in the game
★AllJokesAside: he had his Medicham in on my Cresselia
★AllJokesAside: it was at +2
★AllJokesAside: While I can handle Mega Medicham with Cresselia
★AllJokesAside: I can't risk staying in
★AllJokesAside: In the chance of him doubling into Gothitelle
★AllJokesAside: I would've lost then
★AllJokesAside: As Cresselia is my best way to handle Mega Medicham
★AllJokesAside: Which is why I ended up forfeiting
★AllJokesAside: When I ended up doing in that senario was switching to Skarmory
★AllJokesAside: Losing 45%
★AllJokesAside: from a +1 Crunch
★AllJokesAside: Now I'm limited again
★AllJokesAside: I can't switch out
★AllJokesAside: I mean, I can't stay in
★AllJokesAside: If I do that he'll CC and I'll die
★AllJokesAside: So I think I went into Suicune
★AllJokesAside: now he doubles
eviolite goomy: I get it
★AllJokesAside: and my suicune is crippled
★AllJokesAside: Good
eviolite goomy: it's all about match up, right?
eviolite goomy: and focusing on match up makes it less competitive
★AllJokesAside: Mhm
★AllJokesAside: But something like
★AllJokesAside: HO doesn't appreciate, what, balance righ?
★AllJokesAside: But HO can still beat balance
★AllJokesAside: I can't beat this
eviolite goomy: exactly
★AllJokesAside: Chopin
★AllJokesAside: Is too good
★AllJokesAside: he's not going to make mistakrs
★AllJokesAside: he's going to play it safe
★AllJokesAside: and he'll win
★AllJokesAside: every single time
eviolite goomy: alright I'd be pretty pissed too if I kept running into the same guy who'd constantly counter my playstyle without too much effort
★AllJokesAside: mhm
★AllJokesAside: You're going to support me then? :) Your word pulls a lot of weigh
★AllJokesAside: t
★AllJokesAside: Has a lot of weight*
eviolite goomy: but I'm still not sure if I'd really bad gothitelle
eviolite goomy: *ban
★AllJokesAside: Ban trapping moves
★AllJokesAside: At least in inheritance
★AllJokesAside: where stall is the dominant playstyle, and is so common
★AllJokesAside: Since chopin will beat every single stall team he meets
★AllJokesAside: without any effort lol...
eviolite goomy: the thing that has me thinking here is why should goth only be banned in inh and not in normal tiers?
★AllJokesAside: Because in OU there's two reasons
★AllJokesAside: Megas are more common
★AllJokesAside: I've seen teams in Inheritance without Megas
★AllJokesAside: As there aren't that many viable ones
★AllJokesAside: And two, OU is overal more offensive
★AllJokesAside: the only metas where Shadow tag isn't banned is Ubers and OU
★AllJokesAside: Because those two metas have such a power creep
★AllJokesAside: You're not trapping a Landorus-T
★AllJokesAside: you're not trapping a Gliscor, or a landorus
★AllJokesAside: All of these mons are so powerful or provide enough utility or momentum
★AllJokesAside: That gothitelle isn't as powerful
★AllJokesAside: It's a more offensive metagame
★AllJokesAside: While in UU and RU, NU ect
eviolite goomy: but now it kind of feels like you're banning goth just because it forces the inh meta to shape up differently from how you want it to be
★AllJokesAside: T
★AllJokesAside: I've been beaten before with this team
★AllJokesAside: Some people used other strategies besides Trapping
★AllJokesAside: had the right wallbreakers
★AllJokesAside: stallbreakers
★AllJokesAside: and they beat me
★AllJokesAside: fair enough, I lose sometimes
★AllJokesAside: but this isn't even giving me a fighting chance
★AllJokesAside: Its also a reward scheme
★AllJokesAside: I'm going to go out on a limb and say I have the best stall team in Inheritance
eviolite goomy: fine with me
★AllJokesAside: I was Number one on the ladder for a couple of days with it
★AllJokesAside: It took me a long time to build
★AllJokesAside: took me a long time to learn how to play stall
★AllJokesAside: as it's a difficult thing to learn
★AllJokesAside: you have to be patient
★AllJokesAside: TL;DR it's harder than it looks
★AllJokesAside: That should be rewarded
★AllJokesAside: It should be rewarded with a high ranking
★AllJokesAside: and a high WR
★AllJokesAside: But I can't prepare for this
★AllJokesAside: I can switch out as many mons I want to o
★AllJokesAside: But it wont change the fact that I'll either lose to shadow tag
★AllJokesAside: or I'll have to centralise to the extent where Medicham just sweeps me regardless
★AllJokesAside: Thoughs?
eviolite goomy: I was going to say that stall might not be as viable then, but never mind I'm biased
eviolite goomy: well
eviolite goomy: I see what you're getting at
★AllJokesAside: It's very viable
★AllJokesAside: i don't lose a lot with this team
★AllJokesAside: Of the 10 loses i've had in total
★AllJokesAside: six of them were to lagging
★AllJokesAside: two to someone outplaying me
★AllJokesAside: two to Chopin
★AllJokesAside: besides Trapping and lagging
★AllJokesAside: I only lose 1:25
eviolite goomy: :|
★AllJokesAside: Alright, I'm writing a post on the forums
★AllJokesAside: I'll use this conversation, all right?
★AllJokesAside: Copy and paste it basically
eviolite goomy: it's fine
★AllJokesAside: Thank you for listing :)
eviolite goomy: ok I agree gothitelle might be a bit cheap
eviolite goomy: but there's no reason for me to personally make an effort to ban it since, I'm not bothered by myself at all
eviolite goomy: *by it
★AllJokesAside: well I can't force you too, but I've used all playstyles and I like to help all of them

If anybody is tried after that read, here is a couple one liners to cheer you up.

You can never lose a homing pigeon - if your homing pigeon doesn't come back, what you've lost is a pigeon.

You don't need a parachute to go skydiving. You need a parachute to go skydiving twice

My friend gave me his Epi-Pen as he was dying.
It seemed very important to him that I have it.

Say what you want about deaf people.

My grandfather has the heart of a lion and a lifetime ban at the zoo.

Working in a mirror factory is something I can totally see myself doing

First of all, that's a ridiculously long post, may i suggest hiding it so it doesn't clutter the thread?
If you don't know how to hide something, simply type (hide) at the start and then at the end (/hide), except with [ ] instead of ( ).

Sadly, despite you're replay, I'm not convinced of banning Shadow Tag on Gothitelle. Sure it takes a dump on stall, but stall isn't the only play style in inheritance, balance and offense are also quite popular from my experience. Like Chopin Alkaninoff said, one of Gothitelle's biggest weaknesses is that it cannot inherit from other Pokemon, leaving it with mediocre stats and a bad offensive movepool. When not up against stall, Gothitelle is often a liability and is almost deadweight for your team, as many of the powerful attackers in the tier such as Landog plow right through Gothitelle.
Sure Gothitelle can trap things and trick them a choice item, but what then? Trick leftovers onto one of your walls? That sounds bad. I remember reading somewhere that stall teams in inheritance CANNOT be passive, because you're giving the opponent free turns to setup and stuff. Stall in Inheritance should have offensive presence (unlike OU stall where it's passive as fuck), and you should have something to keep momentum in your favour such as volturn.

If you really want a way to remove Gothitelle, you could use this set:

Beedrill (Tyranitar) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pursuit
- Knock Off
- Drill Run
- U-turn

252 Atk Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Gothitelle: 188-224 (54.8 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The above calc means that if Goth switches out, then that nigga is ded. I'm fairly certain that most Goths run max speed. I suppose that by adding this on your stall team it becomes more of a balanced team, but eh. You could also inherit from Mega Metagross, you get the same powered Pursuit, but you also get things like ice punch, grass knot and trick, but you forgo knock off and u-turn which i find more valuable.

I forgot to mention something. Other abilities such as arena trap was banned because it was dangerous against almost all archetypes. For example, Chansey's arena trap cancer with mud slap and struggle bug, rest and toxic. Walls and eliminates most special attackers, and also annoys stall. The fact that you could put arena trap on anything you wanted - it was unpredictable - was the main reason arena trap got banned. But when you see a Gothitelle in the team preview, you know that shit's shadow tag.

EDIT 1: I liked those one-liners at the end :3

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Another option for stall teams is to use a Ghost type such as Doublade, as it can be a reliable physical wall and can't be trapped.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Well, I admit that Gothitelle is cheap. Because of this battle, I support Arena Trap ban, which is currently suspected. But note that Shadow Tag is banned from the beginning and you can use banned abilities if the poke doesn't inherit. This completely follows the rule.

In my opinion, Gothitelle is even weaker here, because it can't inherit, while you can use a wall that's bulkier than in any OU standards because of inheriting moves + ability. I don't see why we should ban Gothitelle when OU doesn't ban it (its exactly the same as OU). It's much stronger there, because the pokes in OU can't inherit anything, which makes Gothitelle have a much easier time in OU than here. If you need to ban Gothitelle, suggest in OU first instead, because it is not banned in OU, and this uses OU banlist.

I disagree with it being exactly the same in OU. Gothitelle it's better. In OU there's two things hindering Gothitelle from shining. One is the pokemon that are currently OU, we have a ton of pokemon who can outright beat hit, very few gothitelle can actually trap and kill. You have pokemon who can just voltturn out, like rotom, scizor and Landorus-T. You have pokemon who can use their own support moves to taunt it or set up on it, like Gliscor. And the same with pokemon who can outright OHKO it, like Bisharp and Tyranitar. You also have pokemon like Gengar who can't be trapped, nevertheless Gengar can still OHKO with shadow ball. And last you have Mega Pokemon who could give two shits about gothitelle as it has really weak offences and you can't trick a mega stone. And of course pokemon who can 2HKO it so they don't give a shit about the trick rest set.

The other reason is how the OU metagame is right now. It's heavily offensive, you have behemoths like Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross, Landorus-T, Thundurus, Keldeo, Landorus-I, Mega Altaria who limit teambuilding and also makes stall extremely difficult to built, which again makes shadow tag hard to use. Stall isn't especially good in OU, thus making Gothitelle worse.

Same applies to ubers^ (Only two official metas where Shadow tag ISNT banned)

However in Inheritance this isn't true. In inheritance stall is just as common and good as any other playstyle. But stall is troubled by trapping in Inheritance, in a very uncompedetive way. In my battle with Chopin there was almost nothing I could do, except predict everything he could do. And I can't do that, Chopin isn't bad, he's the contrary. I don't trust myself to predict everything he would do.

Another option for stall teams is to use a Ghost type such as Doublade, as it can be a reliable physical wall and can't be trapped.

And then i'm swept by Gengar, I can't keep on centralising my team. With ghosts or shed shell

First of all, that's a ridiculously long post, may i suggest hiding it so it doesn't clutter the thread?
If you don't know how to hide something, simply type (hide) at the start and then at the end (/hide), except with [ ] instead of ( ).

Sadly, despite you're replay, I'm not convinced of banning Shadow Tag on Gothitelle. Sure it takes a dump on stall, but stall isn't the only play style in inheritance, balance and offense are also quite popular from my experience. Like Chopin Alkaninoff said, one of Gothitelle's biggest weaknesses is that it cannot inherit from other Pokemon, leaving it with mediocre stats and a bad offensive movepool. When not up against stall, Gothitelle is often a liability and is almost deadweight for your team, as many of the powerful attackers in the tier such as Landog plow right through Gothitelle.
Sure Gothitelle can trap things and trick them a choice item, but what then? Trick leftovers onto one of your walls? That sounds bad. I remember reading somewhere that stall teams in inheritance CANNOT be passive, because you're giving the opponent free turns to setup and stuff. I read somewhere that stall in Inheritance should have offensive presence (unlike OU stall where it's passive as fuck), and you should have something to keep momentum in your favour such as volturn.

If you really want a way to remove Gothitelle, you could use this set:

Beedrill (Tyranitar) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pursuit
- Knock Off
- Drill Run
- U-turn

252 Atk Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Gothitelle: 188-224 (54.8 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The above calc means that if Goth switches out, then that nigga is ded. I'm fairly certain that most Goths run max speed. I suppose that by adding this on your stall team it becomes more of a balanced team, but eh. You could also inherit from Mega Metagross, you get the same powered Pursuit, but you also get things like ice punch, grass knot and trick, but you forgo knock off and u-turn which i find more valuable.

Alright I'm going to make some bullet points here:

• Yeah sorry about that, in the start I tried to do that but I'm awful with the forum editor. So I can't fix it, if a mod would kindly help me out I would love it
• No, you're right. stall isn't the only dominant playstyle. But Shadow tag truly doesn't just "take a dump" on stall. Shadow tag completely shuts down stall, it's not like when using HO I can predict correctly and suddenly pull through. Or get a crit and I'll win. I'm insta dead. My Suicunes scald can't 3HKO and I'm going to run out of Scald/recover/encores whatever he chooses to lock me into. I've instantly lost 3-2 pokemon
• Gothitelle tricks one of my pokemon Scarf, crippling it. Later game it also tricked my Cresselia a toxic orb, widdling it. Plus it carries rest giving it a TON of pp, as sleep turns don't drain PP.
• I disagree. I remember that one guy, who you're referring to who also used stall. And his team is good, it's great. but the ladder doesn't really lie, I'm ranked above him and I'm using super passive stall teams. Both are viable
• I don't carry that on my Stall team, and gothitelle isn't a problem for Offensive team since there's nothing to trap so I don't understand what you want me to do with that set.

Edit: since I like donkeys liked them, just for you baby

My EX girlfriend had this weird fetish
She'd like to dress up as herself and act like a fucking bitch

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

I, for one, like Roman numerals.

I have a stepladder, because my real ladder left when I was a kid.

Why can't orphans play baseball? Because they don't know where home is.

 

[Snaquaza]

Arena Trap has been banned.

Council voted. Only three votes so far, but all have been ban, so it's banned already. If you want an explanation, tag any of the members, but it should be obvious. It basically restricts various playstyles with the sets, and there is a surprising amount of variety. (Offensive, stall and Final Gambit sets). It allows you to eliminate something freely, especially the Final Gambit sets. Additionally, you don't even know if something is Arena Trap until it's too late!

Also tagging The Immortal to implement it!

 

[I like donkeys]

Alright I'm going to make some bullet points here:

• Yeah sorry about that, in the start I tried to do that but I'm awful with the forum editor. So I can't fix it, if a mod would kindly help me out I would love it
• No, you're right. stall isn't the only dominant playstyle. But Shadow tag truly doesn't just "take a dump" on stall. Shadow tag completely shuts down stall, it's not like when using HO I can predict correctly and suddenly pull through. Or get a crit and I'll win. I'm insta dead. My Suicunes scald can't 3HKO and I'm going to run out of Scald/recover/encores whatever he chooses to lock me into. I've instantly lost 3-2 pokemon
• Gothitelle tricks one of my pokemon Scarf, crippling it. Later game it also tricked my Cresselia a toxic orb, widdling it. Plus it carries rest giving it a TON of pp, as sleep turns don't drain PP.
• I disagree. I remember that one guy, who you're referring to who also used stall. And his team is good, it's great. but the ladder doesn't really lie, I'm ranked above him and I'm using super passive stall teams. Both are viable
• I don't carry that on my Stall team, and gothitelle isn't a problem for Offensive team since there's nothing to trap so I don't understand what you want me to do with that set.

Just because you are ranked above someone doesn't necessarily mean you are better than them, maybe they have just not had as many battles on the ladder as you. Sorry if that sentence was pointless but i felt like i should say it. There are some circumstances in the replay you showed where i think the changes i suggested could have helped out a lot. Your Cresselia is unaware right? You could inherit from Swoobat which gets toxic and roost, but you can also use u-turn to pivot out of Gothitelle. Not only that but Swoobat has other goodies for Cress to fuck around with such as taunt, super fang, and trick. And it's not like your team needs wish anyway lol.
The Tyranitar set? Oh, I just suggested that since Gothitelle is, oh I don't know, YOUR TEAM'S NUMBER ONE THREAT. Since you continuously state how Gothitelle completely shuts down your team and that you stand ZERO chance against it (according to you at the very least), one would assume a way to remove Gothitelle would be ideal. It's called teambuilding and preparing for threats. Instead of asking to ban something so your team fares better, it would probably be more appropriate to implement a new team member or moveset to prepare for that something your team suffers against. That Tyranitar set seems pretty darn good for your team as far as i can see. As it swiftly eliminates your no.1 threat, and can also pivot out of threats with u-turn so you can switch in one of your various walls to best deal with the situation.

 

[Klang]

The thing is, given OU has not banned it, banning Gothitelle here is very hard to justify.

Now let me be clear on this - I support a Gothitelle ban here, and I support a Gothitelle ban in all tiers where it's legal (AAA, STABmons, Hidden Type, Inverse Battle, etc.) because it is complete fucking bullshit how it auto-wins versus stall in every single tier where it's legal. The problem is OU adamantly refuses suspect it despite this for some reason, and because of this, banning it here for example, where everything is better, while arguing it's broken here while it isn't in OU, will make it a very hard ban to sell.

I disagree with it being exactly the same in OU. Gothitelle it's better. In OU there's two things hindering Gothitelle from shining. One is the pokemon that are currently OU, we have a ton of pokemon who can outright beat hit, very few gothitelle can actually trap and kill. You have pokemon who can just voltturn out, like rotom, scizor and Landorus-T. You have pokemon who can use their own support moves to taunt it or set up on it, like Gliscor. And the same with pokemon who can outright OHKO it, like Bisharp and Tyranitar. You also have pokemon like Gengar who can't be trapped, nevertheless Gengar can still OHKO with shadow ball. And last you have Mega Pokemon who could give two shits about gothitelle as it has really weak offences and you can't trick a mega stone. And of course pokemon who can 2HKO it so they don't give a shit about the trick rest set.

The other reason is how the OU metagame is right now. It's heavily offensive, you have behemoths like Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross, Landorus-T, Thundurus, Keldeo, Landorus-I, Mega Altaria who limit teambuilding and also makes stall extremely difficult to built, which again makes shadow tag hard to use. Stall isn't especially good in OU, thus making Gothitelle worse..

Does it matter that Stall might be more common here than in OU? Gothitelle will still completely dominate the stall teams that are present there regardless of their popularity, and as you said, it's 100% unfair how it does so. All of the Pokemon you mentioned are not exactly likely to find themselves on stall teams, and even if they are present, half the team will likely be weak to Gothitelle anyway. The popularity doesn't matter - if it auto-wins against stall I see very little reason to not ban it.

It's not like Gothitelle does better versus offense here either you know. DesoTran, Mega Pinsir, Proteans, Ursaring, and pretty much every single offensive threat in the meta will completely shit on Gothitelle here, and at a far greater extent than the offensive threats in OU do to boot. The same applies to Gothitelle here in Inheritance - crushes stall, does little against offense. But that doesn't mean it's not banworthy.

Since you continuously state how Gothitelle completely shuts down your team and that you stand ZERO chance against it (according to you at the very least), one would assume a way to remove Gothitelle would be ideal. It's called teambuilding and preparing for threats. Instead of asking to ban something so your team fares better, it would probably be more appropriate to implement a new team member or moveset to prepare for that something your team suffers against. That Tyranitar set seems pretty darn good for your team as far as i can see. As it swiftly eliminates your no.1 threat, and can also pivot out of threats with u-turn so you can switch in one of your various walls to best deal with the situation.

The fact that you even mentioned "prepare for Gothitelle" means you have no idea how Gothitelle even works, and I suggest you read up on why Shadow Tag is broken before posting on why it isn't. Bar running Shed Shell on everything (which proves it's centralizing) this is obviously impossible.

EDIT: And no, running U-Turn isn't an optimal solution, since while you can U-Turn on Gothitelle you still won't have time to stop the choice scarf from crippling a team member. In addition, after you've been tricked if you ever go for anything other than U-Turn on that mon again Gothitelle will switch in and kill you.

Doughboy's post on why Shadow Tag is broken in OU, taken from the Trapping in OU thread

The major downfall for teams based around trapping is that they entirely telegraph your strategy to your opponent. Like when I see Magnezone + Pinsir in team preview I know what my opponent aims to do and I have an easier time scouting. When I face a team based around a bunch of lures it isn't so obvious to me what the opponent will be doing, so it is much easier for me to make an error or bad plays.

That being said, I still think Shadow Tag needs to gtfo (moreso just Gothitelle then anything else). It doesn't just trap and kill pokemon, but forces the opponent to restrict putting certain pokemon into play akin to what Magic Bounce does against using hazards. Let me give an example scenario:

Chansey vs Charizard Y + Gothitelle

Charizard Y is one of the most fearsome wallbreakers and nothing except Chansey and certain Dragon types can tank a hit from it. Rarely do many teams have more than two checks to that beast. Note that in this scenario SR is on the field and this is not something extraordinary to do. You switch out one of your Pokemon into Chansey to counter Charizard Y. Nevermind that the opponent could potentially double switch into Gothitelle when he forces you into a high pressure situation. The opponent doesn't double switch and you have successfully tanked the opponents Fire Blast. Now what? You know now that the Gothitelle is coming in, and guess what you already have lost. Obviously you will get trapped and killed by some Trick Scarf Rest nonsense if you stay in and Soft-Boiled. Well what if you double switch even into say a Bisharp on the predicted switchin to counter-trap the Gothitelle with Pursuit. Well now you are at a point to be easily 2HKO'ed by Charizard Y's Fire Blast, so it is safe to say Charizard Y is getting a free kill.
___________________________________________________
Even without really doing anything Gothitelle has prevented your defensive pokemon from recovering. This is the problem with Shadow Tag, it prevents you from getting any sort of tempo / momentum with a defensive Pokemon. It doesn't just straight up trap the pokemon, it invalidates their use throughout the entire match while its alive.

Defensive pokemon aren't the only pokes who fall to "invalidation." I think this replay of mine with my rain team is a good example what Gothitelle could do in a match in high level play against offensive pokemon. If I didn't get so lucky with RS Swept switching in his Gothitelle on my Knock Off I would have been totally done (I didn't predict that). Once the Gothitelle is gone SD Toxic Orb Breloom straight up 5-0's his team really easily. But what if he hadn't accidently let his Gothitelle die? My Breloom would have no way of ever coming in the game and getting an SD to wallbreak. This is why these Gothitelle + 5 passive pokemon stall teams are so annoying. No wallbreaker / stallbreaker is ever going to be to come into play in any match because Gothitelle prevents any sort of aggression with a guaranteed kill of that Pokemon or cripples them to the point of making them useless (ex. tricking taunt+wisp stallbreaker a scarf). Running Shed Shell would obviously prevent the pokemon from having any wallbreaking / stallbreaking potential. Losing Life Orb or Choice Specs / Band makes you lose power to get critical ohko's / 2hko's and losing lefties on stallbreakers prevents you from handling passive damage throughout the match easily.

So yeah Shadow Tag invalidating the use of pokemon in a game, both offensive and defensive, is pretty lame. Its something that's actually uncompetitive unlike say greninja who's straight up powerful. Magnet Pull, Arena Trap, and Pursuit get the pass from me because they can only target specific pokes as opposed to all of them. In the case of Magnet Pull / Arena Trap many of their targets can viably run Shed Shell and can play carefully around Knock Off. Pursuit isn't a guaranteed trap and can be prone to being counterplayed by stuff like Reflect Type or HP Fighting. Also the users of all three are much more prone to being set up bait after a trap (Shadow Tag users have Encore or Trick).

Not to mention I think that Shadow Tag could also be banned on grounds of timestalling. Those stupid Trick+Rest Gothitelle sets can extend matches to way longer than they should be and if you have a nefarious enough opponent they sometimes can timestall you. And there is nothing you can do about it ;.;

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Just because you are ranked above someone doesn't necessarily mean you are better than them, maybe they have just not had as many battles on the ladder as you. Sorry if that sentence was pointless but i felt like i should say it. There are some circumstances in the replay you showed where i think the changes i suggested could have helped out a lot. Your Cresselia is unaware right? You could inherit from Swoobat which gets toxic and roost, but you can also use u-turn to pivot out of Gothitelle. Not only that but Swoobat has other goodies for Cress to fuck around with such as taunt, super fang, and trick. And it's not like your team needs wish anyway lol.
The Tyranitar set? Oh, I just suggested that since Gothitelle is, oh I don't know, YOUR TEAM'S NUMBER ONE THREAT. Since you continuously state how Gothitelle completely shuts down your team and that you stand ZERO chance against it (according to you at the very least), one would assume a way to remove Gothitelle would be ideal. It's called teambuilding and preparing for threats. Instead of asking to ban something so your team fares better, it would probably be more appropriate to implement a new team member or moveset to prepare for that something your team suffers against. That Tyranitar set seems pretty darn good for your team as far as i can see. As it swiftly eliminates your no.1 threat, and can also pivot out of threats with u-turn so you can switch in one of your various walls to best deal with the situation.

No, it doesn't mean I have the best team. But I proves having a passive stall team isn't horrible or necessary. Swoobat doesn't get Heal bell, which is something else I can fit NOWHERE else on my team, so I'll continue using the set I'm suing.

I can't fit that tyranitar set anywhere on my team because that means i'll have to get rid of a pokemon, which again means something else will start threatening my team. Everything on my team is necessary.

The thing is, given OU has not banned it, banning Gothitelle here is very hard to justify.

Now let me be clear on this - I support a Gothitelle ban here, and I support a Gothitelle ban in all tiers where it's legal (AAA, STABmons, Hidden Type, Inverse Battle, etc.) because it is complete fucking bullshit how it auto-wins versus stall in every single tier where it's legal. The problem is OU adamantly refuses suspect it despite this for some reason, and because of this, banning it here for example, where everything is better, while arguing it's broken here while it isn't in OU, will make it a very hard ban to sell.



Does it matter that Stall might be more common here than in OU? Gothitelle will still completely dominate the stall teams that are present there regardless of their popularity, and as you said, it's 100% unfair how it does so. All of the Pokemon you mentioned are not exactly likely to find themselves on a stall teams, and even if they are present, half the team will likely be weak to Gothitelle anyway. The popularity doesn't matter - if it auto-wins against stall I see very little reason to ban it and do away with it.

It's not like Gothitelle does better versus offense here either you know. DesoTran, Mega Pinsir, Proteans, Ursaring, and pretty much every single offensive threat in the meta will completely trample Gothitelle here, and at a far greater extent than OU to boot. The same applies here - crushes stall, does little against offense. But that's doesn't mean it's not banworthy if it crushes stall.



The fact that you even mentioned "prepare for Gothitelle" means you have no idea how Gothitelle even works, and I suggest you read up on why Shadow Tag is broken before posting on why it isn't. Bar running Shed Shell on everything (which proves it's centralizing) this is obviously impossible.

Doughboy's post on why Shadow Tag is broken in OU, taken from the Trapping in OU thread

The major downfall for teams based around trapping is that they entirely telegraph your strategy to your opponent. Like when I see Magnezone + Pinsir in team preview I know what my opponent aims to do and I have an easier time scouting. When I face a team based around a bunch of lures it isn't so obvious to me what the opponent will be doing, so it is much easier for me to make an error or bad plays.

That being said, I still think Shadow Tag needs to gtfo (moreso just Gothitelle then anything else). It doesn't just trap and kill pokemon, but forces the opponent to restrict putting certain pokemon into play akin to what Magic Bounce does against using hazards. Let me give an example scenario:

Chansey vs Charizard Y + Gothitelle

Charizard Y is one of the most fearsome wallbreakers and nothing except Chansey and certain Dragon types can tank a hit from it. Rarely do many teams have more than two checks to that beast. Note that in this scenario SR is on the field and this is not something extraordinary to do. You switch out one of your Pokemon into Chansey to counter Charizard Y. Nevermind that the opponent could potentially double switch into Gothitelle when he forces you into a high pressure situation. The opponent doesn't double switch and you have successfully tanked the opponents Fire Blast. Now what? You know now that the Gothitelle is coming in, and guess what you already have lost. Obviously you will get trapped and killed by some Trick Scarf Rest nonsense if you stay in and Soft-Boiled. Well what if you double switch even into say a Bisharp on the predicted switchin to counter-trap the Gothitelle with Pursuit. Well now you are at a point to be easily 2HKO'ed by Charizard Y's Fire Blast, so it is safe to say Charizard Y is getting a free kill.
___________________________________________________
Even without really doing anything Gothitelle has prevented your defensive pokemon from recovering. This is the problem with Shadow Tag, it prevents you from getting any sort of tempo / momentum with a defensive Pokemon. It doesn't just straight up trap the pokemon, it invalidates their use throughout the entire match while its alive.

Defensive pokemon aren't the only pokes who fall to "invalidation." I think this replay of mine with my rain team is a good example what Gothitelle could do in a match in high level play against offensive pokemon. If I didn't get so lucky with RS Swept switching in his Gothitelle on my Knock Off I would have been totally done (I didn't predict that). Once the Gothitelle is gone SD Toxic Orb Breloom straight up 5-0's his team really easily. But what if he hadn't accidently let his Gothitelle die? My Breloom would have no way of ever coming in the game and getting an SD to wallbreak. This is why these Gothitelle + 5 passive pokemon stall teams are so annoying. No wallbreaker / stallbreaker is ever going to be to come into play in any match because Gothitelle prevents any sort of aggression with a guaranteed kill of that Pokemon or cripples them to the point of making them useless (ex. tricking taunt+wisp stallbreaker a scarf). Running Shed Shell would obviously prevent the pokemon from having any wallbreaking / stallbreaking potential. Losing Life Orb or Choice Specs / Band makes you lose power to get critical ohko's / 2hko's and losing lefties on stallbreakers prevents you from handling passive damage throughout the match easily.

So yeah Shadow Tag invalidating the use of pokemon in a game, both offensive and defensive, is pretty lame. Its something that's actually uncompetitive unlike say greninja who's straight up powerful. Magnet Pull, Arena Trap, and Pursuit get the pass from me because they can only target specific pokes as opposed to all of them. In the case of Magnet Pull / Arena Trap many of their targets can viably run Shed Shell and can play carefully around Knock Off. Pursuit isn't a guaranteed trap and can be prone to being counterplayed by stuff like Reflect Type or HP Fighting. Also the users of all three are much more prone to being set up bait after a trap (Shadow Tag users have Encore or Trick).

Not to mention I think that Shadow Tag could also be banned on grounds of timestalling. Those stupid Trick+Rest Gothitelle sets can extend matches to way longer than they should be and if you have a nefarious enough opponent they sometimes can timestall you. And there is nothing you can do about it ;.;

I agree with everything you said, as always you're very well spoken with excellent arguments.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

No, it doesn't mean I have the best team. But I proves having a passive stall team isn't horrible or necessary. Swoobat doesn't get Heal bell, which is something else I can fit NOWHERE else on my team, so I'll continue using the set I'm suing.

I can't fit that tyranitar set anywhere on my team because that means i'll have to get rid of a pokemon, which again means something else will start threatening my team. Everything on my team is necessary.



I agree with everything you said, as always you're very well spoken with excellent arguments.

If you refuse to change your team to counter a certain threat, then you just autolose to that threat, simple as that, and we should not waste our time trying to help you if you refuse to try and beat it. Based on what you have said, my opinion on Gothitelle is no ban, because you CAN beat it, you just CHOOSE not to. I'm sure there is a way stall can beat Gothitelle while still checking the other major threats in the metagame, otherwise nobody would use stall. My opinion right now is that I am on the fence about a ban however, because I believe Kl4ng's post brought up some interesting points, and I must test it further.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

If you refuse to change your team to counter a certain threat, then you just autolose to that threat, simple as that, and we should not waste our time trying to help you if you refuse to try and beat it. Based on what you have said, my opinion on Gothitelle is no ban, because you CAN beat it, you just CHOOSE not to. I'm sure there is a way stall can beat Gothitelle while still checking the other major threats in the metagame, otherwise nobody would use stall. My opinion right now is that I am on the fence about a ban however, because I believe Kl4ng's post brought up some interesting points, and I must test it further.

How can I possibly prepare for something like Gothitelle? If you truly believe what you just said then you have no idea how Gothitelle works against stall. I CAN'T beat it. I don't CHOOSE not to. Offensive teams can't just CHOOSE to stop a +6 attack +6 speed extreme speeding Mega Medicham. You can't just CHOOSE to stop something like Gothitelle without severely centralising your team.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

How can I possibly prepare for something like Gothitelle? If you truly believe what you just said then you have no idea how Gothitelle works against stall. I CAN'T beat it. I don't CHOOSE not to. Offensive teams can't just CHOOSE to stop a +6 attack +6 speed extreme speeding Mega Medicham. You can't just CHOOSE to stop something like Gothitelle without severely centralising your team.

You can't prepare for Gothitelle, which is why I said its cheap. But you can find a way out of trapping by U-turn or Volt switch, which means you can play around with it, not just outright lose to it.

I don't really want to judge if its broken or not, but because this metagame uses OU banlist, I'll against ban until OU bans it (as well as in other tiers where its legal).

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

Okay after using Mega-Bee a bit, I think it should be ranked at least B.
Mega-Bee is the epitome of a glass cannon. I am providing some replays to help support my nomination. In the replays you can see Mega-Bee is doing around 40% or more damage off of resisted hits, unless it is something with 4x resistance and is super bulky like Aegi Jr. It makes an excellent pivot. Requires a bit of support but threatens all play styles as long as you can keep it healthy and keep hazards off your side of the field, which isn't very difficult. It is pretty frail and requires good prediction to avoid priority, but if played right is definitely viable. It has really powerful Stabs. It is fast enough and strong enough to deal with a decent portion of the top tier threats.

Also, I feel confident that Hippo should be listed as a recipient from Magcargo. Flame Body is a great ability to go with Hippo's outstanding physical bulk, it keeps stealth rocks+recovery, and also gains clear smog to completely destroy contrary mons not inheriting from Serperior.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224734149

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224739617

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224744653

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224747614

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224748415

 

[I like donkeys]

The thing is, given OU has not banned it, banning Gothitelle here is very hard to justify.

Now let me be clear on this - I support a Gothitelle ban here, and I support a Gothitelle ban in all tiers where it's legal (AAA, STABmons, Hidden Type, Inverse Battle, etc.) because it is complete fucking bullshit how it auto-wins versus stall in every single tier where it's legal. The problem is OU adamantly refuses suspect it despite this for some reason, and because of this, banning it here for example, where everything is better, while arguing it's broken here while it isn't in OU, will make it a very hard ban to sell.



Does it matter that Stall might be more common here than in OU? Gothitelle will still completely dominate the stall teams that are present there regardless of their popularity, and as you said, it's 100% unfair how it does so. All of the Pokemon you mentioned are not exactly likely to find themselves on a stall teams, and even if they are present, half the team will likely be weak to Gothitelle anyway. The popularity doesn't matter - if it auto-wins against stall I see very little reason to not ban it.

It's not like Gothitelle does better versus offense here either you know. DesoTran, Mega Pinsir, Proteans, Ursaring, and pretty much every single offensive threat in the meta will completely shit on Gothitelle here, and at a far greater extent than the offensive threats in OU do to boot. The same applies to Gothitelle here in Inheritance - crushes stall, does little against offense. But that's doesn't mean it's not banworthy.



The fact that you even mentioned "prepare for Gothitelle" means you have no idea how Gothitelle even works, and I suggest you read up on why Shadow Tag is broken before posting on why it isn't. Bar running Shed Shell on everything (which proves it's centralizing) this is obviously impossible.

EDIT: And no, running U-Turn isn't a very effective solution, since while you can U-Turn on Gothitelle you still won't have time to stop the choice scarf from crippling a team member. In addition, after you've been tricked if you ever go for anything other than U-Turn on that mon again Gothitelle will switch in and kill you.

Doughboy's post on why Shadow Tag is broken in OU, taken from the Trapping in OU thread

The major downfall for teams based around trapping is that they entirely telegraph your strategy to your opponent. Like when I see Magnezone + Pinsir in team preview I know what my opponent aims to do and I have an easier time scouting. When I face a team based around a bunch of lures it isn't so obvious to me what the opponent will be doing, so it is much easier for me to make an error or bad plays.

That being said, I still think Shadow Tag needs to gtfo (moreso just Gothitelle then anything else). It doesn't just trap and kill pokemon, but forces the opponent to restrict putting certain pokemon into play akin to what Magic Bounce does against using hazards. Let me give an example scenario:

Chansey vs Charizard Y + Gothitelle

Charizard Y is one of the most fearsome wallbreakers and nothing except Chansey and certain Dragon types can tank a hit from it. Rarely do many teams have more than two checks to that beast. Note that in this scenario SR is on the field and this is not something extraordinary to do. You switch out one of your Pokemon into Chansey to counter Charizard Y. Nevermind that the opponent could potentially double switch into Gothitelle when he forces you into a high pressure situation. The opponent doesn't double switch and you have successfully tanked the opponents Fire Blast. Now what? You know now that the Gothitelle is coming in, and guess what you already have lost. Obviously you will get trapped and killed by some Trick Scarf Rest nonsense if you stay in and Soft-Boiled. Well what if you double switch even into say a Bisharp on the predicted switchin to counter-trap the Gothitelle with Pursuit. Well now you are at a point to be easily 2HKO'ed by Charizard Y's Fire Blast, so it is safe to say Charizard Y is getting a free kill.
___________________________________________________
Even without really doing anything Gothitelle has prevented your defensive pokemon from recovering. This is the problem with Shadow Tag, it prevents you from getting any sort of tempo / momentum with a defensive Pokemon. It doesn't just straight up trap the pokemon, it invalidates their use throughout the entire match while its alive.

Defensive pokemon aren't the only pokes who fall to "invalidation." I think this replay of mine with my rain team is a good example what Gothitelle could do in a match in high level play against offensive pokemon. If I didn't get so lucky with RS Swept switching in his Gothitelle on my Knock Off I would have been totally done (I didn't predict that). Once the Gothitelle is gone SD Toxic Orb Breloom straight up 5-0's his team really easily. But what if he hadn't accidently let his Gothitelle die? My Breloom would have no way of ever coming in the game and getting an SD to wallbreak. This is why these Gothitelle + 5 passive pokemon stall teams are so annoying. No wallbreaker / stallbreaker is ever going to be to come into play in any match because Gothitelle prevents any sort of aggression with a guaranteed kill of that Pokemon or cripples them to the point of making them useless (ex. tricking taunt+wisp stallbreaker a scarf). Running Shed Shell would obviously prevent the pokemon from having any wallbreaking / stallbreaking potential. Losing Life Orb or Choice Specs / Band makes you lose power to get critical ohko's / 2hko's and losing lefties on stallbreakers prevents you from handling passive damage throughout the match easily.

So yeah Shadow Tag invalidating the use of pokemon in a game, both offensive and defensive, is pretty lame. Its something that's actually uncompetitive unlike say greninja who's straight up powerful. Magnet Pull, Arena Trap, and Pursuit get the pass from me because they can only target specific pokes as opposed to all of them. In the case of Magnet Pull / Arena Trap many of their targets can viably run Shed Shell and can play carefully around Knock Off. Pursuit isn't a guaranteed trap and can be prone to being counterplayed by stuff like Reflect Type or HP Fighting. Also the users of all three are much more prone to being set up bait after a trap (Shadow Tag users have Encore or Trick).

Not to mention I think that Shadow Tag could also be banned on grounds of timestalling. Those stupid Trick+Rest Gothitelle sets can extend matches to way longer than they should be and if you have a nefarious enough opponent they sometimes can timestall you. And there is nothing you can do about it ;.;

You bring up good arguments Kl4ng as always, thanks to your post and other posts in the thread i am leaning more towards banning Gothitelle now.
I am a little insulted on the last part however. Back when i used to play OU during most of my time on PS, I had Gothitelle on almost EVERY team, so I'm fairly certain I know how Gothitelle works thank you very much. Saying you cannot prepare for Gothitelle is preposterous, you can prepare for any Pokemon if you choose to. The problem is that implementing something like the ttar set i suggested earlier doesn't really make it a proper stall team anymore, and opens the team up to new weaknesses, but you can still remove Goth this way if you choose to do so. Of course, being forced to go to such measures to remove Gothitelle means that it's centralizing to some extent and only aids Gothitelle's ban further.
Other than that, i totally agree with everything else you said.

On a slightly different note, I just want to clarify, is the current argument about banning Gothitelle or banning Shadow Tag as a whole?

 

[Lcass4919]

edit: gdi didnt notice i had a post beforehand saved on this

You bring up good arguments Kl4ng as always, thanks to your post and other posts in the thread i am leaning more towards banning Gothitelle now.
I am a little insulted on the last part however. Back when i used to play OU during most of my time on PS, I had Gothitelle on almost EVERY team, so I'm fairly certain I know how Gothitelle works thank you very much. Saying you cannot prepare for Gothitelle is preposterous, you can prepare for any Pokemon if you choose to. The problem is that implementing something like the ttar set i suggested earlier doesn't really make it a proper stall team anymore, and opens the team up to new weaknesses, but you can still remove Goth this way if you choose to do so. Of course, being forced to go to such measures to remove Gothitelle means that it's centralizing to some extent and only aids Gothitelle's ban further.
Other than that, i totally agree with everything else you said.

On a slightly different note, I just want to clarify, is the current argument about banning Gothitelle or banning Shadow Tag as a whole?

the problem is that requires you to prepare 6 pokemon for gothitelle to actually PREPARE for it, you cannot prepare for goth like you can for landorus therian for example. pack a diance/FF steel and you guud m8. whereas, as if ONE pokemon cannot handle goth, then your opponent can abuse that against you even if you have a hard counter just itching to switch in(take note, that you NEED goth weak pokes, like physically defensive pokes such as doublade/skarm otherwise you outright lose to physical sweepers). to prepare your entire team for one threat will provide huge holes in your team. and if you don't make those holes, then 1 pokemon completely controls you, and you will lose to it almost every-single-time. so for example...that tyranitar is pretty strong, but considering you lost your physical wall...terrakion and friends still clean you up, or maybe instead of killing the poke, it just tricks it its specs..forcing you to now have setup fodder on your team, which forces you to keep tyrant in hiding until goth comes back out. its DONE its job. but you wont be able to stop it from KOing another poke later on. so you just lost 2 pokemon CRUTIAL to your team...meanwhile at the cost of a poke whoms job has already been completed. 2 for 1 scenario that even that tyranitar cant stop.

do i agree with shadow tag ban? personally, i don't really know. when i make stall teams, i usually have a bit of offensive momentum so even if something traps me, i can use goth as setup fodder, and i'm usually able to outsmart people with goth via making incredibly stupid predictions. meanwhile when i use it...i can see why people want it gone.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

You bring up good arguments Kl4ng as always, thanks to your post and other posts in the thread i am leaning more towards banning Gothitelle now.
I am a little insulted on the last part however. Back when i used to play OU during most of my time on PS, I had Gothitelle on almost EVERY team, so I'm fairly certain I know how Gothitelle works thank you very much. Saying you cannot prepare for Gothitelle is preposterous, you can prepare for any Pokemon if you choose to. The problem is that implementing something like the ttar set i suggested earlier doesn't really make it a proper stall team anymore, and opens the team up to new weaknesses, but you can still remove Goth this way if you choose to do so. Of course, being forced to go to such measures to remove Gothitelle means that it's centralizing to some extent and only aids Gothitelle's ban further.
Other than that, i totally agree with everything else you said.

On a slightly different note, I just want to clarify, is the current argument about banning Gothitelle or banning Shadow Tag as a whole?

Every single person who uses stall knows how incredible important every single move slot is, and every single item slot.
It's truly not as simple to just prepare for goth and pack u-turn because if something had u-turn AND could still do its role properly I would run it without a doubt. But as the metagame stands now I can't change anything. If I make Cresseli inheritor of Swoobat I would retain everything I need and u-turn but, I lose Heal bell leaving my team weak to status. Which is an even bigger problem. I can prepare for something like Landorus-T, I can predict around it. There's nothing I can do against Gothitelle that I haven't already done.

 

[Ghoul King]

I've got another case of being rejected even though the set is legal on its original Pokemon, and at this point I'm almost completely confident the problem is that Showdown is checking for Egg moves as if the Pokemon inheriting is being bred onto -in this case Diancie can't breed at all, and in other cases it probably boils down to "no Pokemon that gets that move normally can breed with the Pokemon trying to have the move". I'm guessing this is basically equivalent to how Nosepass could be bred Head Smash in code terms but until Gen VI brought along Aegislash it was not possible because no Pokemon that learned the move could breed with Nosepass. (And remains impossible because they removed that egg move from Nosepass, more's the pity)

Tagging Snaquaza, The Immortal, and Slayer95 because this is maddening and incorrect behavior. If it's a legal combination it should be a legal combination.

 

[Slayer95]

I've got another case of being rejected even though the set is legal on its original Pokemon, and at this point I'm almost completely confident the problem is that Showdown is checking for Egg moves as if the Pokemon inheriting is being bred onto -in this case Diancie can't breed at all, and in other cases it probably boils down to "no Pokemon that gets that move normally can breed with the Pokemon trying to have the move". I'm guessing this is basically equivalent to how Nosepass could be bred Head Smash in code terms but until Gen VI brought along Aegislash it was not possible because no Pokemon that learned the move could breed with Nosepass. (And remains impossible because they removed that egg move from Nosepass, more's the pity)

Tagging Snaquaza, The Immortal, and Slayer95 because this is maddening and incorrect behavior. If it's a legal combination it should be a legal combination.

And the set is...? d_b

 

[xJownage]

Okay after using Mega-Bee a bit, I think it should be ranked at least B.
Mega-Bee is the epitome of a glass cannon. I am providing some replays to help support my nomination. In the replays you can see Mega-Bee is doing around 40% or more damage off of resisted hits, unless it is something with 4x resistance and is super bulky like Aegi Jr. It makes an excellent pivot. Requires a bit of support but threatens all play styles as long as you can keep it healthy and keep hazards off your side of the field, which isn't very difficult. It is pretty frail and requires good prediction to avoid priority, but if played right is definitely viable. It has really powerful Stabs. It is fast enough and strong enough to deal with a decent portion of the top tier threats.

Also, I feel confident that Hippo should be listed as a recipient from Magcargo. Flame Body is a great ability to go with Hippo's outstanding physical bulk, it keeps stealth rocks+recovery, and also gains clear smog to completely destroy contrary mons not inheriting from Serperior.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224734149

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224739617

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224744653

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224747614

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224748415

Mega Bee is not going to get B just yet because of the amount of priority and the fact that anything on offense shits on it. If I see it doing major work against stall teams on a consistent basis that may change, but against offense and even balance it requires a lot of support to function to its optimal potential.

Hippo from magcargo seems nice, I'll add it at the next update (tag me if i forget).

My comment on shadow tag: We go off of the OU banlist and make modifications as needed for excessive enhancements of certain mons. Let me make this clear: Gothitelle has no enhancement in inheritance. As a result, I see no reason to override the OU banlist because it destroys stall, like it does in every tier it has shadow tag in, and therefore I strongly disagree with a ban.

 

[Ghoul King]

And the set is...? d_b

Power Gem/Dazzling Gleam/Calm Mind/Recover (Inherited from Mega Sableye, so Magic Bounce), the last being the Egg move. I also previously had this issue with Terrakion inheriting from Malamar, with Destiny Bond (egg move) being the problem -I replaced it with Taunt and suddenly it was A-OK. It crossed my mind after the previous post this may simply be "No Eggs Egg Group=no Egg moves", since that's the two specific cases I explicitly remember running into it.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Mega Bee is not going to get B just yet because of the amount of priority and the fact that anything on offense shits on it. If I see it doing major work against stall teams on a consistent basis that may change, but against offense and even balance it requires a lot of support to function to its optimal potential.

Hippo from magcargo seems nice, I'll add it at the next update (tag me if i forget).

My comment on shadow tag: We go off of the OU banlist and make modifications as needed for excessive enhancements of certain mons. Let me make this clear: Gothitelle has no enhancement in inheritance. As a result, I see no reason to override the OU banlist because it destroys stall, like it does in every tier it has shadow tag in, and therefore I strongly disagree with a ban.

Gothitelle gets stronger because: fewer Megas are used and they're not always necessary and the metagame is less offensive. Thus it should be completely up for discussion. OU was on the fence for banning it regardless

 

[xJownage]

Gothitelle gets stronger because: fewer Megas are used and they're not always necessary and the metagame is less offensive. Thus it should be completely up for discussion. OU was on the fence for banning it regardless

Gothitelle's substantial flaws clearly override the single positive it has in the metagame (less megas), but more importantly: Metagame trends to not dictate what is broken. Metagame existences do, but trends to not. The stall influx is a trend, and therefore does not dictate the brokenness of gothitelle, period.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Gothitelle's substantial flaws clearly override the single positive it has in the metagame (less megas), but more importantly: Metagame trends to not dictate what is broken. Metagame existences do, but trends to not. The stall influx is a trend, and therefore does not dictate the brokenness of gothitelle, period.

If HO is dominant priority uses rise in usage, like Mega Pinsir.
Mega Pinsir ranks to S rank
Mega Pinsir threatens a playstyle to the point where it's significantly difficult to prepare for it, deeming it broken.
Mega Pinsir is now banned

If Stall is dominant stallbreakers rise in usage, like Gothitelle
Gothitelle rises to S rank
Gothitelle threaten... Wait, let me stop myself. Gothitelle isn't worth S rank. It doesn't threaten enough playstyles for that to be justified.
Gothitelle doesn't threaten Hyper offence
Gothitelle is a threat to Balance
Gothitelle completely and utterly stops stall
Stall can't prepare for it, stall can't do anything to it. It's highly uncompedetive as there is no way around it and it gives you win by match up WHICH IT should NEVER do. If every playstyle had a vability rankings for what is the biggest threat Gothitelle is ranked S+++ rank. It's an automatic win. If this was the case for Hyper offence it would without a doubt be banned. If you could put a pokemon on your team and that pokemon lets you automatically win against a certain playstyle it would get banned, and that's what we have: gothitelle.

Gothitelle should also be banned in OU, but stall isn't dominant so it's overlooked by threats like Mega Metagross and the other Megas.

 

[Red Cat]

The thing about Gothitelle and Shadow Tag is that they are not necessarily good, but they are uncompetitive, much like Swagger and Baton Pass teams. That is why UU and below have banned Shadow Tag completely, even on Gothita. OU hasn't banned it because they are ultra-conservative about banning things (see the Baton Pass fiasco, taking about a month to ban Mega Salamence, failing to ban Mega Metagross, etc.) We have already strayed from the OU banlist in unbanning things like Greninja and Genesect, so I don't think that is a good reason alone to say Shadow Tag shouldn't be banned entirely. Given the state of OU right now, I don't think "being like OU" is a good thing for this meta.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

If HO is dominant priority uses rise in usage, like Mega Pinsir.
Mega Pinsir ranks to S rank
Mega Pinsir threatens a playstyle to the point where it's significantly difficult to prepare for it, deeming it broken.
Mega Pinsir is now banned

If Stall is dominant stallbreakers rise in usage, like Gothitelle
Gothitelle rises to S rank
Gothitelle threaten... Wait, let me stop myself. Gothitelle isn't worth S rank. It doesn't threaten enough playstyles for that to be justified.
Gothitelle doesn't threaten Hyper offence
Gothitelle is a threat to Balance
Gothitelle completely and utterly stops stall
Stall can't prepare for it, stall can't do anything to it. It's highly uncompedetive as there is no way around it and it gives you win by match up WHICH IT should NEVER do. If every playstyle had a vability rankings for what is the biggest threat Gothitelle is ranked S+++ rank. It's an automatic win. If this was the case for Hyper offence it would without a doubt be banned. If you could put a pokemon on your team and that pokemon lets you automatically win against a certain playstyle it would get banned, and that's what we have: gothitelle.

Gothitelle should also be banned in OU, but stall isn't dominant so it's overlooked by threats like Mega Metagross and the other Megas.

Stall is the meta. Being S rank = defining metagame. But being anti meta =/= defining the meta. So being anti meta =/= broken.

No matter how dominant Stall is, the fact that Gothitelle gains nothing in terms of abilities and moves in this metagame while everything here is much stronger than in OU, I don't see a reason to ban here while OU doesn't. Same goes for every other metas where its legal.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Stall is the meta. Being S rank = defining metagame. But being anti meta =/= defining the meta. So being anti meta =/= broken.

No matter how dominant Stall is, the fact that Gothitelle gains nothing in terms of abilities and moves in this metagame while everything here is much stronger than in OU, I don't see a reason to ban here while OU doesn't. Same goes for every other metas where its legal.

I'd make the argument the only reason Gothitelle isn't banned in OU is because OU is in a state of crisis. It's incredible difficult to team building in OU as it is with almost half a dozen pokemon that deserve a suspect test or the ban hammer, and I can't even think of which one's worse. They're in a state of crisis, gothitelle isn't their primary issue. If ORAS is a 3 year game, just a hypothetical, I believe we would see that in the future, maybe a year, many of these insane power houses banned. It would make team building easier and open up for more variation in play styles. Stall would rise in usage and Gothitelle would probably be the final suspect test for a long, long time. Even I can't predict that far ahead. Gothitelle is broken in OU, it's just not as broken as Thundurus, Altaria, Metagross, Sableye, Diancie and Landorus. The list goes on.

Another thing that I haven't brought up yet, which draws a similarity to assist. Assist did nothing for the metagame, which is a reason for it being banned. Doesn't shadow tag/trap do the exact same thing? It's not only centralising it has the capability to render a play style completely useless or open for a sweep with nothing to prevent it. If we were to ban Shadow tag I believe it would leave Inheritance in a lovely state. Every play style is viable and nothing is particularly game breaking or broken. And of course we don't have anything uncompedetive giving automatic wins.

Finally I can foresee someone accusing me of being biased and no, I'm not. I don't have a special love for any play style I only use what's best. I want shadow tag to be banned because it renders on playstyle useless. If stall WERE to become to powerful we would simply start looking at it as well. Though I believe stall is another deal, as you're highly reward ONLY if you're excellent at team building, which should rightfully be rewarding you with the number one spot of the ladder.