VGC 2015 Viability Rankings - Mark 2

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Yeah, after all, we had a HOLE ARGUMENT about the fire chicken, and considering DaAwesomeDude1's fire chicken "joke" team, i think is enough to put normal blaze on B- FOR NOW...
Look at all the other mons in B-, they can all fit into more than just one team that is built around them, don't do exactly one thing and one thing only, has to avoid half the meta for turn 1. also its "whole" not "hole"
 
Does Jumpluff have any kind of specific niche as Rage Powder user anymore?
Encore, basically. makes a good ultra niche partner to mega gyarados.

I'd be tempted to bump mega lucario to B/B- . It is a very strong pokemon, and only needs something to deal with landorus, charizard and a couple of others, and it will cut your team apart. Adaptability close combat is just lethal, and it gets access to a good variety of moves, and can even go special. Add in the fact ice punch deals heavy damage to mence and it can OHKO mega kang at -1 with CC (!!!), it is an amazing pick for a mega, and can have a good core around it fairly well.

Latios should be B tier. It isn't the best like it used to be, and, although it can cause a it of damage, it is a shadow of it's former self. Many pokemon can easily tank it's moves, and then KO back. Kang gets sucker punch, and mega metagross walls it completely.

Also, I'd be looking at porygon2 to be B- tier. It is a very threatening pokemon, and the fact that a download ice beam will destroy most landorus out there, and even some thundurus, and the fact it's bulk is incredible, this pokemon deserves a higher spot. Eviolite turns it into a monster, and with access to bolt beam, and has recovery and trick room, this duck will stick around, and will be very devastating
mega luke suffers from the same problem that lopunny has, really: being too frail and while it's powerful it still misses out on some KOs.i think it does make a good secondary mega and/or a good lategame cleaner (certainly a more useful one than lop; seriously i don't see why you guys like that thing so much), but if it were a tad bit stronger i'd move it up a bit. i can probably be convinced to move it up (it is my favorite pokemon).

agreeing with latios, but i'm not sold on porygon2 just yet. i do like download in a meta where everything is more physically defensive and it has foul play to cover stuff like megagross. actually, that doesn't sound terrible at all. i might try it out sometime.

i was gonna reply to more of these by my computer is acting weird. good discussion as always, folks.
 
Sorry for the dumb question but is there anywhere I can find the Showdown VGC usage statistics?
 

Martin

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It is also bad to compare it at Cresselia. Clefairy has most of time pretty much same moveset, while Cresselia has atleast 4 viable different sets (support, TR setter, expert belt, calm mind), with still having lots of options. They also perform entiely different roles, so there is really no point to compare them.
I was just comparing it to the standard uninvested Cresselia - not the pokemon as a whole. But yeah, I could have picked a better example of something to compare it to like Jigglypuff

edit: something on the lower end of the list has been niggling at me for a while, so I thought I might as well bring it up.

Why is Dusclops ranked but not Dusknoir? Dusclops is absolutely awful, while Dusknoir is at least somewhat salvagable. Dusclops suffers from one crippling flaw: it has literally zero offensive presence. It is complete taunt bait without any particular redeeming features over Dusknoir. Sure it is bulkier, but its nonexistant HP basically negates any bulk that it already has, and its reliance on Night Shade to deal damage means that it fails to actually do anything useful in a battle. Dusknoir, on the other hand, has access to everything that Dusclops does, can actually deal damage to the opponent and isn't completely crippled for the rest of the match if it is hit with a Knock Off - not to mention that it can hold Colbur Berry to make Knock Off ineffective for damage at any point in the match. This means that its lower bulk is easily constituted for, and this constitution allows it to function better than Dusclops in almost every scenario. IMO, Dusknoir should be D and Dusclops should be E because of this.
 
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I was just comparing it to the standard uninvested Cresselia - not the pokemon as a whole. But yeah, I could have picked a better example of something to compare it to like Jigglypuff

edit: something on the lower end of the list has been niggling at me for a while, so I thought I might as well bring it up.

Why is Dusclops ranked but not Dusknoir? Dusclops is absolutely awful, while Dusknoir is at least somewhat salvagable. Dusclops suffers from one crippling flaw: it has literally zero offensive presence. It is complete taunt bait without any particular redeeming features over Dusknoir. Sure it is bulkier, but its nonexistant HP basically negates any bulk that it already has, and its reliance on Night Daze to deal damage means that it fails to actually do anything useful in a battle. Dusknoir, on the other hand, has access to everything that Dusclops does, can actually deal damage to the opponent and isn't completely crippled for the rest of the match if it is hit with a Knock Off - not to mention that it can hold Colbur Berry to make Knock Off ineffective for damage at any point in the match. This means that its lower bulk is easily constituted for, and this constitution allows it to function better than Dusclops in almost every scenario. IMO, Dusknoir should be D and Dusclops should be E because of this.
Night Shade; Night Daze is Zoroark's signature move. :P

Ah, Dusknoir and Dusclops. Until the creation of Aegislash, they were one of my few non-Fire typed staples.
Dusclops, despite its absolutely pitiful base 40 HP, tanks hits about as well as Cresselia. Dusknoir, on the other hand, gets a pathetic +5 HP, +5 Def, +5 Sp. Def to bulk. And loses the +1/+1 Eviolite buff. Which is monumental.

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia in Sun: 129-153 (56.8 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops in Sun: 87-103 (59.1 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield in Sun: 115-136 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (ignoring Steel typing)
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dusknoir in Sun: 126-148 (82.8 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dusclops in Sun: 129-153 (87.7 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO (If you lose Eviolite)

So, the bulk is very notable; Dusknoir is actually rather easy to 2HKO if it lacks a Sitrus berry. Dusclops, being 97% of Cresselia's bulk even with 64% of the HP, is rather hard to 2HKO without absolute beasts. Look at it this way: Dusclops, with Eviolite, has ~2/3 the HP of Cresselia; but has over 3/2 the defenses thanks to Eviolite. Dusknoir has 66.9% of Cresselia's HP, with marginally higher defenses. So... Dusknoir gets about 2% more HP, and a massive drop to ~68.3% of Dusclop's defenses upon evolving. In exchange for... about 27% more damage output.

4 Atk Dusclops Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 72-88 (42.1 - 51.4%) -- 3.5% chance to 2HKO
-1 4 Atk Dusclops Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-T: 64-76 (39 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 4 Atk Dusclops Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 72-88 (35.6 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Dusclops Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 52-64 (28.7 - 35.3%) -- 3.5% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Dusclops Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 84-100 (42.4 - 50.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

4 Atk Dusknoir Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 92-112 (53.8 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 0 Atk Dusknoir Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-T: 84-100 (51.2 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 4 Atk Dusknoir Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 92-112 (45.5 - 55.4%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Dusknoir Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 68-84 (37.5 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Dusknoir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 112-132 (56.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dusknoir still fails to kill most anything you'd actually aim for, even at 4x damage. Because it would have basically useless bulk if it ran Expert Belt, CB, or LO, it can't really run an offensive item. Dusclops is also nearly completely useless on offense; except with nearly 50% better defenses. So, while Dusknoir will *probably* survive Turn 1 and set TR, but after that... well... its a tad better at chip damage under ideal circumstances if it doesn't run WoW, Pain Split, ChestoRest, or Protect.

Item competition is another factor; Eviolite is rarely used, so hits few team restraints. Dusknoir absolutely depends on Sitrus Berry, can function with Leftovers, and Sitrus is a heavily contested item slot, that might cause teambuilding issues.
All in all, Dusknoir's offensive power is actually in the Cresselia level. With less than 70% of the bulk. Don't get me wrong; I adore Duskull's whole evo line. But in all my years using them, I've simply watched the world around them pass them by. Cofagrigus happened, completely displacing Dusknoir as a physical wall. But Dusknoir still held a niche in better coverage, and better special bulk. Amd then... Aegislash. Sure, it has WoW and Trick Room, but Aegislash really does take a steaming shit on it. 60/150/150 crushes 45/135/135. And Aegislash hits so fucking hard it doesn't even NEED coverage. Also, Dusknoir has, by far, the worst STAB moves of any Ghost type. Phantom Force? Shadow Claw? nope. You get an unboosted Shadow Punch and fucking Shadow Sneak. Oh, or Shadow Ball off of 65 Sp. Atk.

tl;dr big Dusknoir fan, but it still sucks. Dusclops at least dickishly walls shit and stalls you to death. I can't think of a remotely viable niche for Dusknoir. It makes me sad.
 
Both Duskies are kinda meh, however, agreed that Dusklops is alot better

Dusclops however should drop, imo C- is too high for it, but its small niches (things like the fact its almost bulky as Cress that lacks healing item, probs bulkiest Will O Wisp user, etc) makes it enough good to not be in E rank, D sounds fine
 
Something I want to bring up is moving Bisharp down from A+ to A or even A-. At the start of the Meta is Bisharp was a much better Pokemon. Intimidate and Sylveon were much more common. Now the only real common Intimidate Pokemon are Landorus-T and Arcanine two Pokemon Bisharp has an unideal match-up with. When Sylveon was common the need for an offensive check was much higher. By no means a bad Pokemon, Bisharp faces harsh competition with Heatran and Aegislash for offensive Steel-type. While neither completely outclass Bisharp they are somewhat more reliable in a lot of match-ups. There are also a lot of common Fighting-types which either outspeed or have Mach Punch which put a lot of pressure on Bisharp on how it must play. Bisharp is by no means a bad Pokemon but it isn't A+ anymore.
 
Something I want to bring up is moving Bisharp down from A+ to A or even A-. At the start of the Meta is Bisharp was a much better Pokemon. Intimidate and Sylveon were much more common. Now the only real common Intimidate Pokemon are Landorus-T and Arcanine two Pokemon Bisharp has an unideal match-up with. When Sylveon was common the need for an offensive check was much higher. By no means a bad Pokemon, Bisharp faces harsh competition with Heatran and Aegislash for offensive Steel-type. While neither completely outclass Bisharp they are somewhat more reliable in a lot of match-ups. There are also a lot of common Fighting-types which either outspeed or have Mach Punch which put a lot of pressure on Bisharp on how it must play. Bisharp is by no means a bad Pokemon but it isn't A+ anymore.
Have to agree with this one, Bisharp is not what it was in the beginning of the metagame. It used to be the 4th most used pokémon on pokemon-gl, now it's the 7th most used. The reason for that is excactly what you state above. One of the few things I like about it, is that it is a solid Cress counter. But the list of cons is starting to rack up. It is easy to invest a Lando-T to surivive a +1 LO Sucker Punch from Bisharp, to be presice, a 12 Hp 92 Def spread is enough. However, I have the feeling that sash Bisharp is getting more common, and that Life Orb was more common before, so that calc with Lando-T is useless against sash Bisharp. Runnign sash creates a different problem, damage output. Without it's cherished Life Orb, Bisharp does not have any impressive damage output if it hasn't gotten of a defiant boost. It makes Sucker Punch a 3HKO instead of a 2HKO on Mega Kang, and it struggles with getting rid of a Cress in 2 rounds if you don't Sucker Punch the next turn.

Also, although Bisharp has decent speed, it is not the best. It has Sucker Punch as priority, but Sucker Punch requires predicting your opponent correctly, and that can be hard at times. You never know when a mon could switch out or protect, you can make a bad call and your Bisharp wasted a turn. Sure, Sucker Punch is nice stab, but what mons does it hit supereffectively that actually attack on a consistent basis, I wonder. Regarding what pokes it outspeeds and what not, there is one mon that causes some issues, Heatran. Heatran can be invested into easily outspeeding all Bisharps out there (except maybe those trolls with jolly) and snagging an OHKO with Heat Wave. Sure, you can come and survive it with a sash, but a sash Bisharp does not knock out a Heatran without any bulk investment with Knock Off+Sucker Punch, so that's that.

It also suffers from Will-O-Wisp, which honestly makes any Bisharp garbage on the spot. However, it has the incredible ability of being one of very few physical attacker that shits on pokes with intimidate, and any poke with stat lowering moves in general. Another thing people seem to like about Bisharp is that it checks Sylveon so nicely. Sure, but if the opponent has lowered Bisharps speed, Sylveon OHKO's it with specs Hyper Voice. Speaking of speed control, Bisharp works welll under Tailwind, but I find it (and Sylveon) useless in games where both sides have tailwind, because your opponents Bisharp check (which most people have), a mon like Terrakion or Kangaskhan, now outspeeds you and there is no way of stopping it from outspeeding and OHKO'ing your beloved Bisharp.

All in all, A rank is where it should be, because in a game where Bisharp gets to be used the way it should be used, it can be the most annoying thing to deal with on the field, putting up incredible offensive pressure and threatening almost your entire team with powerfull Knock Offs , Sucker Punches and Iron Heads. And remember, always bring a solid Bisharp counter, you will not regret it.



On another note, while browsing through the usage statistics for Battle Spot Doubles on pokemon-gl, I found out that apparently, 1/4 off all Arcanines carry Choice Band, and another 1/4 of them carry Life Orb. I have battled over 10 Arcanines on BS, and every single one has been a bulky support Arcanine with Snarl and all that stuff. So could someone please tell me, are these statistics correct, and do I just happen to meet bulky Arcanines all the time, or has anyone else experienced the same?
 
Bisharp indeed is not A+ material imo anymore. It has 99% of time those same moves (Iron head, sucker punch, knock off and protect). The fact it really has no room to run other moves makes it extremely predictable. By this fact it already should drop, but it also has pretty crap bulk, and it really wants to have both items: if it runs LO, it dies fastly and is prone to OHKOs, while if it runs Sash, it is not as threatening as offensively as long it doesnt get Defiant boost. Its typing is cool outside of its weakness, but it really doesnt help it on special side atleast (my HH boosted Sceptile OHKOed it with Leaf Storm, while it is insanely powerful, it is darn resisted and getting OHKOed by resisted move screams Bisharp having shitty bulk). It ofc deters Intimidate, but it is easy to deal with (just dont bring Intimidate mon until it dies, damn). It definely should drop to A or A-, A+ is just ehh too high for it
 
On another note, while browsing through the usage statistics for Battle Spot Doubles on pokemon-gl, I found out that apparently, 1/4 off all Arcanines carry Choice Band, and another 1/4 of them carry Life Orb. I have battled over 10 Arcanines on BS, and every single one has been a bulky support Arcanine with Snarl and all that stuff. So could someone please tell me, are these statistics correct, and do I just happen to meet bulky Arcanines all the time, or has anyone else experienced the same?
i'd say it's a pretty even split b/w offensive and support arcanine in my experience. they tend to be on similar teams too, so it makes it really hard to predict which one i'll go up against.
 
Speaking of pokemon not A+ i still wonder wht amoonguss is there.
I mean, it's still a great redirectioner but it get shat on by a lot of common pokemon ontroduced with oras other that its old counters.
If you evs your amoongus to not be OHKOed by physical attacks like Zen Headbutt from M-Metagross or Double Edge from M-Cancerskan (that's her real name) you won't be taking many special hits and ice moves are everywhere. A small list of pokemon that just laugh at amoongus is:
- Salamence
- Metagross
- Ludicolo
- Thundurus-I
- Heatran
- Charizard-Y
- Talonflame
- Venusaur

And i just picked the first one in mind. For these reason it should drop to A
 
moved a few things around.

gardevoir-m: B+ -> B- i've tried it on a few teams but it just has a really shitty matchup with common things. it's a really fun/strong pokemon though (my opinion is not biased based on its awesome shiny form and recent obsession with steven universe/maining rosalina in smash and generally liking elegant stuff)
gardevoir: B -> C outclassed by a lot of things. offensive trick room and being an okayish scarf mon is cool though.
garchomp: B -> B+ better matchup against fire types and kang, even if it doesn't have intimidate. better speed means it doesn't have to use scarf if it wants to outspeed big threats (still outsped by megagross/terrak though....)
mamoswine: B -> B+ still anti-meta, but frail. scarf and LO are the way to go obviously, with scarf probably being the better of the two at checking meta threats. i could be convinced to drop this back down.
sableye: B -> B- i actually really like sableye but the piss poor stats is really annoying when i want to survive common hits. also, fake out sabe is overrated.
Rhydon/perior: -> B- -> C+ these guys are cool. bad typing and speed, though.
Salamence: B- -> C+ i want to drop this further, but i'd say it's about on the same level as gastrodon at this point. the only thing this has going for it is intimidate. otherwise, just use latios or hydreigon. or give it its mega stone.
slowbro-mega: C+ -> C- ugh. like a lot of the TR users here it kinda just sits there and does nothing. it also encourages bad behavior and i want to remove it altogether so i can forget it even exists.
raichu: added to B rank i keep forgetting to do this. that's literally the only reason it hasn't been added yet. lol

i'm leaning towards moving bisharp down to A and looking back at megamence to A+. i'm not convinced on shroomer b/c it's one of those mons that CAN be checked but has easily definable checks (besides taunt, maybe) and once those are gone it can literally spore everything. even if its counters are in its face it can just sac itself and gain momentum. clefs can do much of the same thing without the powders nerf, but dont have the awesomeness that is spore in a no-sleep clause meta. something similar could be said about sylveon. if sylveon is to be moved i want more discussion on the matter.

e: also

Tornadus B- to C cos talonflame is better most of the time
Infernape B- to C+ frail, has a defined niche of being a really cool fake out/overheater, but is a tad too slow and weak to be used more
Lucario B- to C+ same as infernape, basically
 
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Yeah, i feel like mence should be back in A+. It has decent versatility (can be bulky or speedy, mixed or physical). It has actually pretty good matchup against Mega Kangaskhan (as long as it doesnt carry Ice Punch), and it is hard counter to Mega Venusaur. Its Double-Edge/Return deals ridiculous damage at everything that doesnt resist it. Not to mention its stats in general are pretty nasty (very tanky, very fast, and very powerful). After 1 DD, it can demolish teams. It does have problems, such as being countered pretty well by bulky waters (especially Rotom-W, Suicune and Milotic), and its typing gives it weakness to common types (4x to ice sucks, also weakness to fairy and rock also sucks), and it is not as easy to slap on team like Landorus-T or Kangaskhan and it needs little more support. These points imo keeps it away from S rank, but it definely is A+ material in my eyes.

Agreed with most of other points lucariojr made, tho i agree seeing normal mence and megabro dropping even further. Mence is probs fine at C or C-, but wouldnt mind Slowbro dropping somewhere to D. It is kinda sitting duck, for TR setter. It does nice dmg, but its not really great for Mega. It has pretty poor support movepool, too, which is not great thing. It literally sets TR, then just sits here. CM sets can be cool, though, but still it is kinda outclassed by cress or even non mega slowbro and its brother slowking.

I only slightly disagree with you with Mega Gardevoir. It is actually rising at popularity, and for good reason. It has excellent base 165 sp atk, while it still doesnt hit as hard as Specs Sylveon, it is much faster, has similar special bulk, has Psychic Stab so it actually beats things like megavenu and shroomer which Sylveon kinda struggles against (being locked into psyshock sucks), and has most notably ability to change its moves. It eats up mega slot, sure, but it is still pretty cool option. It has chance to OHKO both megavenu and shroomer if they dont have too much Sp Def investment, and ability to outspeed and OHKO bisharp, which sylveon would only dream of doing so. it can run cool things like TR + imprison (which is little gimmicky but still cool). it is fine where it is, it however shouldnt be any higher, maybe B is better for it, but B- is too low imo

Seconding drop of Bisharp. Its not what it was in early season, as people has now often multiple ways to playing around it and also beating it (such as EVing Landorus to live +1 LO sucker punch). It is awfully frail. If it runs LO, it is prone to OHKOs, and if it runs Sash, it is not as threatening in general. Most notable flaw imo it is its moveset. Its ALWAYS the same. Yep. 95% of time. Unless it runs Scarf or Specs, it runs always Knock Off/Iron Head/Sucker Punch/Protect, because it has no room for other moves (even if it would enjoy to have Low Kick). Thats imo pretty big flaw alone to prevent mon being away from A+ rank. Sylveon, while it is commonly also one-dimensional spam mon, actually can run other sets than Specs with some variety of coverage or even support moves. Bisharp should drop into A, honestly i wouldnt mind dropping it even to A-.

amoon is fine where it is. it can spore just everything that is not grass types, but those cant typically do much against amoon any better (breloom gets walled hard, mega venu kinda struggles tho it beats shroom in long run, ferro cant do anything really to it. virizion can taunt it, but it does totally nothing against shroom. only ludicolo threatens it, but it giga drain is neutral to it). it fits virtually on any team as long you dont have too much fire/ice/flying weakness. not to mention it is darn bulky and regenerator is cool, and it also check TR well


edit: another mon i would see dropping is charizard y. its physical bulk is meh, and it gets oneshotted by rock slides unless it runs lol amount of bulk. it hits like truck, sure, but it is prone to get outsped and OHKOed. It struggles against Kanga, Landorus, Heatran, Mega Salamence, Rotom-W, Terrakion, and many other A/S rank mons. Charizard is not as big as in 2014, honestly. it kinda wants wide guard support, speed control and other things, which means that its not as easy to build team around it. drop it to A or even A-
 
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edit: another mon i would see dropping is charizard y. its physical bulk is meh, and it gets oneshotted by rock slides unless it runs lol amount of bulk. it hits like truck, sure, but it is prone to get outsped and OHKOed. It struggles against Kanga, Landorus, Heatran, Mega Salamence, Rotom-W, Terrakion, and many other A/S rank mons. Charizard is not as big as in 2014, honestly. it kinda wants wide guard support, speed control and other things, which means that its not as easy to build team around it. drop it to A or even A-
Char-Y walls Heatran. Fire/Steel resist + Ground Immune + 115 Sp. Def = no fucks given. Sure, Heatran walls Char-Y better (Fire Immune + 4X Solarbeam resist) but it doesn't really do much in return. Kind of like Mega venusaur vs Ferrothorn, it's just a trench war.
Rotom-W? Solarbeam, yo. Rotom-W isn't doing shit in Drought and Thunderbolt doesn't even come close to a OHKO. Rotom-H, yes, walls Char-Y hard if it lacks Ancientpower.

That aside, yes, Char-Y needs support to function, you cannot simply throw it onto a team and expect success. Rock Slide is actually easier to tank than you'd think; 156 HP/92 Def keeps Rocky Helm Garchomp from OHKOing. Any stronger Rock Slide requires intimidate or is simply not possible/feasable. It is actually rather difficult to OHKO on the Special side - bulky Char-Y can actually tank a Modest Specs DM from Hydreigon and nearly any Thunderbolt. Physically, yes, 78/78 bulk is not that great and pretty easy to crush. Speed control, god yes it needs that. On the plus side, Fire/Flying does leave it with overall good typing - two weaknesses to Rock and Electric (Drought effectively eliminates Water), with a Ground immunity, Burn immunity, and Bug/Grass/Fighting/Steel/Fairy/Fire resists. 2 weaknesses, 6 resists, 1 Status immunity, and a Ground immunity. We should all know by now how horrifyingly powerful Char-Y can hit, but considering the support it basically requires compounded with general matchups, yeah, I don't have a problem with it dropping to A/A-. It still demolishes Sylveon, Mega Metagross, Mega Venusaur, etc. but doesn't enjoy Terrakion/Khan/Talonflame/Lando-T/MegaMence at all.
Another thing to mention is that Wide Guard severly limits what Char-Y can do in a few matchups. It kinda does just spam Heat Wave.
 
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Char-Y walls Heatran. Fire/Steel resist + Ground Immune + 115 Sp. Def = no fucks given. Sure, Heatran walls Char-Y better (Fire Immune + 4X Solarbeam resist) but it doesn't really do much in return. Kind of like Mega venusaur vs Ferrothorn, it's just a trench war.
Rotom-W? Solarbeam, yo. Rotom-W isn't doing shit in Drought and Thunderbolt doesn't even come close to a OHKO. Rotom-H, yes, walls Char-Y hard if it lacks Ancientpower.

That aside, yes, Char-Y needs support to function, you cannot simply throw it onto a team and expect success. Rock Slide is actually easier to tank than you'd think; 156 HP/92 Def keeps Rocky Helm Garchomp from OHKOing. Any stronger Rock Slide requires intimidate or is simply not possible/feasable. It is actually rather difficult to OHKO on the Special side - bulky Char-Y can actually tank a Modest Specs DM from Hydreigon and nearly any Thunderbolt. Physically, yes, 78/78 bulk is not that great and pretty easy to crush. Speed control, god yes it needs that. On the plus side, Fire/Flying does leave it with overall good typing - two weaknesses to Rock and Electric (Drought effectively eliminates Water), with a Ground immunity, Burn immunity, and Bug/Grass/Fighting/Steel/Fairy/Fire resists. 2 weaknesses, 6 resists, 1 Status immunity, and a Ground immunity. We should all know by now how horrifyingly powerful Char-Y can hit, but considering the support it basically requires compounded with general matchups, yeah, I don't have a problem with it dropping to A/A-. It still demolishes Sylveon, Mega Metagross, Mega Venusaur, etc. but doesn't enjoy Terrakion/Khan/Talonflame/Lando-T/MegaMence at all.
Another thing to mention is that Wide Guard severly limits what Char-Y can do in a few matchups. It kinda does just spam Heat Wave.
lol forgot Solar Beam, ur right on that part

around 15ish % of trans actually runs Ancient Power now. That can 2HKO any Zard, which is good thing to note. Then again, its only 15%, and some zards actually runs HP Ground just for Heatran. So honestly, ur right that Tran isnt rly a check/counter, but its still true that it struggles against Heatran, unless it runs that HP Ground. But yeah, teambuilding around charizard is not too easy, as it really needs something to beat things that walls zard, kinda needs wide guard and speed control, which imo means that it doesnt belong to A+.
 
reasons why zard-y is staying in A+ (imo):

1. the pure strength of its fire moves. even stuff like hydreigon who resists them and (theoretically) threatens zard with heavy hits will take undesirable amounts of damage from them. some pokemon that check/counter it also take a ton of/good amounts of damage switching in, like kang, terrakion, and landog, which is damage enough to put them into KO range for even cresselia's attacks (but not on kang... probably). zard-y can also run bulkier sets without missing out on too many KOs.
2. its offensive synergy with landog/garchomp/terrakion and other mons is amazing. i've ran charizard at a fair amount of events and trust me when I say that if you lead wrong into a lead like that, you're asking for a swift 4-0. charizard-y hyper offense teams are incredibly dangerous when played correctly, and might be on par with ludi+poli as far as straight up offense goes.
3. its overall synergy is pretty good too. sunlight opens up options like moonlight cresselia, venusaur (though honestly venu isn't that great), and offers protection from rain and water moves.
4. it has defined counters, making them a little easier to prepare for/play around. heatran can be taken care of by partners pretty easily (landog/terrak and swampert) rock slide doesn't necessarily NEED wide guard; you can just intimidate the threat and build your zard bulkier (in doing so you don't lose out on many important things, except maybe OHKOing kang with overheat). speed control? everything loves speed control. besides wide guard, zard has everything it needs support wise by one or two of the most common support tactics, support that you should already have/have a good reason for not having.

also, heatran is a threat to zard, and not just a staredown. zard can easily accidentally give it the flash fire boost and heatran takes literally nothing from standard zards, so it's free(-er) to set up a sub and maim stuff with what is effectively a +2 heat wave. on top of that, remember how i said that zard's checks can't easily switch in? heatran is basically a get out of jail free card if you led badly into zard.

ill write up some of my opinions as megamence later. it's in much of same boat as zard i think.

fixed double weavile too.

e2: also escavalier and gourgeist are moving down to around C rank. escav is probably D rank though lol.
 
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reasons why zard-y is staying in A+ (imo):
1. the pure strength of its fire moves. even stuff like hydreigon who resists them and (theoretically) threatens zard with heavy hits will take undesirable amounts of damage from them. some pokemon that check/counter it also take a ton of/good amounts of damage switching in, like kang, terrakion, and landog, which is damage enough to put them into KO range for even cresselia's attacks (but not on kang... probably). zard-y can also run bulkier sets without missing out on too many KOs.
Trust the king of Drought spam: STAB + Drought = Fire resist really doesn't mean much. Aside from Goodra, Kingdra, and Flash Fire, everything shudders before power of Drought+STAB fire moves. I mean, Specs Sylveon doesn't even match it.

2. its offensive synergy with landog/garchomp/terrakion and other mons is amazing. i've ran charizard at a fair amount of events and trust me when I say that if you lead wrong into a lead like that, you're asking for a swift 4-0. charizard-y hyper offense teams are incredibly dangerous when played correctly, and might be on par with ludi+poli as far as straight up offense goes.
Char-Y + Garchomp was my VGC14 core. Almost always lead with it, and god it was beautiful. But Wide Guard was uncommon back then. Still, Char-Y has amazing synergy with Ground types, I've used it with Garchomp and Swampert so far. Lando-T, I haven't tried but do plan on trying it out. Not a hyper offense guy, but its fun on balance at least.

3. its overall synergy is pretty good too. sunlight opens up options like moonlight cresselia, venusaur (though honestly venu isn't that great), and offers protection from rain and water moves.
Also wanted to try cress. ChloroSaur isn't that great but its overall one of the best Chlorophyll mons (especially as a second Mega), mostly just swats Terrakion and chips things for Char-Y. Being able to completely disregard Water types on your team's weakness chart is good too. Also gives some pretty good resists to the team.

4. it has defined counters, making them a little easier to prepare for/play around. heatran can be taken care of by partners pretty easily (landog/terrak and swampert) rock slide doesn't necessarily NEED wide guard; you can just intimidate the threat and build your zard bulkier (in doing so you don't lose out on many important things, except maybe OHKOing kang with overheat). speed control? everything loves speed control. besides wide guard, zard has everything it needs support wise by one or two of the most common support tactics, support that you should already have/have a good reason for not having.
tbh Char-Y shouldn't be dealing with Khan at all, it's not much of a loss. Yeah, basically every non Prankster mon/Talonflame needs speed control. Thing with bulk + intimidate is that yeah, you'll live the Rock Slide, but pretty much any ensuing hit will kill you + still risking a flinch. Mine can take a Rocky Helmet Garchomp's Rock Slide, no Intimidate or anything - doesn't mean it WANTS to. :P
And imo Wide Guard is so amazing in this metagame that it should be something to strongly consider on a team whether you have Char-Y or not.

also, heatran is a threat to zard, and not just a staredown. zard can easily accidentally give it the flash fire boost and heatran takes literally nothing from standard zards, so it's free(-er) to set up a sub and maim stuff with what is effectively a +2 heat wave. on top of that, remember how i said that zard's checks can't easily switch in? heatran is basically a get out of jail free card if you led badly into zard.
Did you watch the Week 10 VGC finals? I parked a Char-Y in front of a Heatran, in Sun, spammed Heat Wave and gave it a Flash Fire buff, and ignored it while I killed everything else. Wasn't a one time gig either - did it with a SubTran too. It looks, and sounds, incredibly stupid, but as previously mentioned Char-Y really should have 1+ partners that decimate Heatran, usually sitting right next to Zard, that keeps it from switching in too easy (except Chlorosaur - then its a free 4 v 2 battle for you).
 
I'm new to battling, so this may be a really noob question, but what are some of the best ways to deal with rain teams (or weather in general)? The current team I'm playing around with on PS! BattleSpot Doubles is M-Metagross (currently trying Sub + dual STABs), Togekiss (Follow Me + Tailwind support), Hydreigon (trying out Scarf, previously LO), Garchomp (standard physical attacker + Lum), Heatran (Modest attacker + Taunt), and Rotom-W.

Edit: Oops, meant to post this in the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread. X.X
 
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DaAwesomeDude1

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I'm new to battling, so this may be a really noob question, but what are some of the best ways to deal with rain teams (or weather in general)? The current team I'm playing around with on PS! BattleSpot Doubles is M-Metagross (currently trying Sub + dual STABs), Togekiss (Follow Me + Tailwind support), Hydreigon (trying out Scarf, previously LO), Garchomp (standard physical attacker + Lum), Heatran (Modest attacker + Taunt), and Rotom-W.
Hey welcome to VGC ^_^ the best place to ask about team help is the RMT forum. Don't forget to read the rules first so your thread doesn't get locked. Good luck :)
 
I haven't looked at the tier list in extensive detail but I guess I'll just go ahead and post some initial thoughts. I'm not sure I agree with Rotom-W being placed all the way up at A+. Take my words with a grain of salt, since I haven't played all that much this season, but hear me out. Rotom-W feels like a Pokemon that's trying to do too many roles at once and isn't particularly outstanding as a result. As a bulky Water, it faces stiff competition from stuff like Suicune, Milotic and Gyarados, while as an Electric type, it faces a lot of competition from Thundurus and Raikou. Sure, it's relatively safe to use against Mega Salamence, but again, Thundurus has that covered. And considering how VGC is largely Bo1, relying on a Pokemon that typically relies on 80-85% accurate moves to function is just a recipe for disaster. Worlds Bo3 is a different story, however.
While you are right in that based on typing rotom-w has stiff competition in water and electric types, but you also must consider that the pokemon you listed all fill very different roles than what rotom-w does. Correct me if I'm wrong but only on Battle-spot, pgl competitions, and Showdown is VGC "largely" Bo1. And while you are correct that relying on a pokemon who has moves with 85% accuracy is a bad idea, there is a reason why you have another pokemon out there. Hax happen, sometimes willow miss doesn't hit or hydro miss fails, other times it feels like they haven't missed once all game long.
 
I haven't looked at the tier list in extensive detail but I guess I'll just go ahead and post some initial thoughts. I'm not sure I agree with Rotom-W being placed all the way up at A+. Take my words with a grain of salt, since I haven't played all that much this season, but hear me out. Rotom-W feels like a Pokemon that's trying to do too many roles at once and isn't particularly outstanding as a result. As a bulky Water, it faces stiff competition from stuff like Suicune, Milotic and Gyarados, while as an Electric type, it faces a lot of competition from Thundurus and Raikou. Sure, it's relatively safe to use against Mega Salamence, but again, Thundurus has that covered. And considering how VGC is largely Bo1, relying on a Pokemon that typically relies on 80-85% accurate moves to function is just a recipe for disaster. Worlds Bo3 is a different story, however.
Honestly, never had trouble with Rotom-W, but that's probably because I (unintentionally) run a check and 2 counters in Mienshao, and the wonderous Char-Y+Mega Venusaur combo. Rotom-W's distinction from Suicune and Gyarados is an Electric neutrality (along with Paralysis immune), Ground Immune is a nice perk over Suicune and Milotic, and it on the Electric side its physically bulkier than Raikou and overall bulkier than Thundy; each has its own set of weaknesses so imo its overly nitpicky to compare that part. Zapdos is also a bulky, ground-immune Electric mon that even has recovery and Roost. Me, I'd rather run Zapdos unless I really, really need Lando-T covered. But yeah, it kinda does try to do too much at once from what I see and face on a lot of teams and gets overwhelmed as a result. It never worked particularly well for me, or against me lol. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm kinda just long-windedly agreeing :P
Just depends on what fits the user's team best tbh.

As for "relying on 85% acc", I don't think relying on something with a chance of missing is *ideal* but it's really not that bad - overall, you get higher return than loss. Draco Meteor, Sacred Fire, Rock type moves, and most common Fire moves wouldn't exist if we all relied on 100% acc. It's a bitch when you miss at that perfect moment, yes, but think of the massive net gain you've gotten from Burning shit and Hydro Pumping Lando-T to death. Yeah, my Char-Y's Heat Wave misses at dickish moments every now and again, but it has murdered so much shit that these fateful misses are simply overshadowed by what it has accomplished.

I also highly disagree with Ninetales being in D rank and I believe it's seriously underplayed right now. Being able to setup sun and deal with bulky Waters with a Fire type that's not named Charizard is really good, especially since it frees you up to use other Megas like Salamence that really appreciate the support and synergy Ninetales brings. It also occupies the base 100 speed tier, which is pretty good and even gives you the option of Scarf to outrun and snipe Landorus-T if you're into things like that (I'm not).
Ah, Ninetales. Ran it through almost all of 5th gen; and like most other people have almost completely forsaken it to Char-Y. She's pulled off some incredible things for me, my most successful set being Shuca Berry + Role Play. The biggest problem it has in this day and age is simply that Ninetales + free mega slot doesn't give you anywhere near the threat level or versatility of Char-Y + non-mega. Let's take a good case for Ninetales: Mega Houndoom.

MegaDoom's Sun + Solar Power + STAB boosted Heat Wave off of a devastaing 140 Sp. Atk is, to the best of my knowledge, the most insane Heat Wave you will ever behold. Let's show and tell:

252+ SpA Heatran Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 67-79 (32.3 - 38.1%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 94-112 (45.4 - 54.1%) -- 50.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 106-126 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 115-136 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 144-171 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


What we see above is that even with Timid, MegaDoom outruns a very respectable portion of the game and hits harder than even a Modest, 252+ Char-Y. Which is absolutely terrifying. Nearly 2.5x the power of a 252+ Modest Heatran outside of Sun. That's a pretty solid reason to run Ninetales - one that I have often considered (and may get around to testing). This is also another testament to how fucking scary it is:

252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune in Sun: 192-226 (92.7 - 109.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Even SUICUNE is scared shitless of it. Now, here's the problem with pairing MegaDoom + Ninetales: Ninetales is pretty frail, and it really doesn't do much beyond support; even with utterly massive base power on its Fire Moves its base 81 Sp. Atk is incapable of really threatening anything that isn't weak to Fire and bulkier than Mienshao. This delegates it to Heat Wave chipping, Solarbeam if desired (it doesn't OHKO any Water type in VGC bar Swampert), WoW, Hypnosis if you're really desperate, and Role play. Now, Role Play is actually rather good in my opinion (Chlorophyll Ninetales is actually pretty good, Lightningrod ShucaTales was a fantastic Special tank, and nabbing things like Parental Bond, Levitate, and Competitive is fun) but Ninetales is pretty weak and quite frail; even when Burned things like Lando-T are going to stomp it. Opposing Fire types will also overpower it, except maybe Rotom-H. Trust me, it has a lot of issues killing anything and tanking hits. Support movepool is nice but I don't see how Mega Salamence benefits from Ninetales at all. It's a decent Ice/Fairy resist but... what does Ninetales do that Arcanine, Entei, Heatran, or Rotom-H couldn't?

Anyway, back to MegaDoom + Ninetales - we have one, very powerful and scary son of a bitch + a relatively weak, frail fox. Now, with Char-Y, we have one powerful, scary motherfucker that comboes nicely with virtually any Ground type, Terrakion, Mienshao, etc., so we have a strong Sun buffed Heat Wave + quite a bit of possible fun sitting next to it that overall adds to a higher threat level and flexibility than MegaDoom+Ninetales. Double Mega cores also work (I do Char-Y + Mega Venusaur, personally) so eating a mega slot isn't always a huge problem, especially if its something like Gyarados that can function just fine non-mega.

As for Ninetales + Chlorophyll mon... the only advantage is that you have boosted Speed right on turn 1, which is something that Char-Y critically lacks. Beyond that, Ninetales+Chlorophyll mon has no comparison to Char-Y + Chloro mon.
The gap between Ninetales and Char-Y is just so massive that I can't imagine anything that bridges the gap. Don't get me wrong - if Char-Y never happened, I'd be running Tales+Doom with no remorse. Ninetales has accomplished far more than I originally expected of it; and I will eternally respect what it has done. It isn't honestly that bad on its own, as pure Fire with a neutralized Water weakness is actually quite nice defensively and it has just barely enough bulk to tank one hit from most everything you'd want it to specifically tank. Just not quite sure what would like Drought support coupled with a wide array of possible Status ailments (has Hypnosis, WoW, Confuse Ray, Toxic, Attract). I guess if you need Drought and can't afford an Electric weakness.
Also, unlike Zard-Y, Ninetales is so miserably useless if Sun runs out / weather change. Zard at least has titanic Sp. Atk.
Sun boosted Zard-X could be funny though, fuck trying to tank a +1 Tough Claws STAB Sun Boosted Flare Blitz.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill in Sun: 201-237 (97.1 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

tl;dr I respect Ninetales and have used it more than probably anyone, but its niche and viability have plummeted since Char-Y happened. I do miss having that cute little fox around though. So many foxy jokes. Haven't seen anyone (intelligently) utilize a Ninetales yet on Gen 6, and haven't put my full attention on it yet, so it's in "uncharted, but imo potentially viable" territory to me. D rank sounds fine to me; much like Noivern it doesn't have much going for it to bring it out of the pits of obscurity.

God that giant textwall, sorry ._.
 
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