Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[Mistress Remilia]

I'm on mobile right now and I know jack about Raichu, so I can't run calcs, but isn't Grass Knot super weak against Lanturn? I fought a Raichu the other day and its grass knots did like 15%. If that's the case, I see him having a hard time rising, considering Lanturn/Torterra/Stunfisk are so omnipresent.

Alright so after running some calcs, what is supposedly so good about Raichu? He 2HKOs Stunfisk with surf but dies to one Earth Power after rocks, Grass Knot on lanturn is barely a 4HKO, even Focus Blast is a mere 28,2% chance to 3HKO, and I'm not even sure if the damage calc considers the 70% accuracy. It 2HKOs Torterra, but gets bopped by one Earthquake. With these 3 being super common at the moment, I don't see what Raichu does that would warrant it rising much.

Also, genuine question, what's his advantage over EVire other than different coverage options?

EVire has base 95 Speed, Raichu has base 110 Speed.
I could make count the precise amount of mons that EVire can't outspeed while Raichu can't, but eh, you know it too. My point being that this difference in speed actually matters quite a lot, it's a pretty good niche. It's not Raich was piss weak either compared to EVire, both shares nice coverage but kind of lacks power behind these moves ( Only Raichu problem is weak Spa and EVire problem is weak moves )
+ Even so, it's not like we asked Raichu & Evire to be on the same rank, and in terms of what it has to offer right now, others & me explained why this thing is at least on par with at least the B- mons.

Raichu C+ -> B-/Possibly B

 

[Deeerpz]

Thanks for the in-depth explanation. I do see how that niche is worthy of B-.

 

[Disjunction]

Can we drop Flareon to, like, Mid C-High D Rank? There is very little reason to run it in this meta, especially over Rapidash. Flareon was only placed so high before because of the relevance of Typhlosion and that era has come to a close. It's slow, has poor coverage, and finds few switch in opportunities in this meta.

Also, I wanted to chime in with the Zebra/Raichu discussion and say I also disagree with having them rise. The meta is saturated to hell with offensive Electric-type answers, making it difficult for either of them to find the breathing room required to put in work. There are simply better options if you're looking for offensive Electric-types right now, such as Electrivire and obligatory Magnets. I understand they're slower, but when they have the tools to beat the common checks for their type and the others don't, it should speak volumes about why they are more relevant.

 

[kay]

Electivire B+ ---> A-

Going to keep this quick as I'm on mobile. Electivire has become great in this meta due to the electric resists everyone is running. Electivire due to it's amazing coverage isn't bothered by the amounts of Lanturns/ Stunfisk/ Magnets/ Torterras that are running around in this meta thanks to EQ/ Flame thrower coverage. Electivire is also one of the few offensive switch ins to magneton, and can actually benefit from switching into an electric type attack from Magneton due to Motor Drive. This alone keeps Magneton from being able to freely click Volt Switch/ Thunderbolt even on the non choice sets. This mon has become a personal favorite of mine due to that lack of preparation people are running for this mon, no one seems prepared for Electivire unique coverage and mixed damage. Very cool mon.

 

[Stardust Dragon]

A- --> A+

Cacturne may seem put down by its lack of physical Dark type moves, but don't be tricked, this cactus is a threat. It has an insane STAB Sucker Punch supported by its great 115 base attack. Seed Bomb also covers the grass type STAB leaving two other moves for coverage, such as Drain Punch or Poison Jab. It is even able to run Swords Dance to OHKO nearly every unresisted threat around. Cacturne is versatile, don't be fooled, it may have a STAB Sucker Punch, but it can surprise you with an equally strong Dark Pulse, Energy Ball, and has a healing move in Giga Drain. It even has boosting moves on the special side of the spectrum. Nasty Plot and Swords Dance give it great versatility making it very unpredictable. It can even run a support set. With access to moves such as Spikes, Spiky Shield, Destiny Bond, Substitute, Leech Seed, Synthesis, and Toxic it can surprise any team.

Cacturne can easily force things out giving it a free chance for a Swords Dance.

Without Swords Dance

252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Magneton: 121-142 (50 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 224-265 (92.5 - 109.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 179-212 (73.9 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Scyther: 138-164 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scyther: 207-243 (73.6 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 238-281 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 148-175 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 243-289 (83.5 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 330-390 (109.6 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 395-468 (95.4 - 113%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kabutops: 660-780 (252.8 - 298.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With Swords Dance

With Swords Dance
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 485-573 (166.6 - 196.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 356-421 (147.1 - 173.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 658-775 (217.8 - 256.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasel: 1373-1617 (547 - 644.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasel: 274-324 (109.1 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 356-421 (122.3 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 338-400 (82.4 - 97.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock <-- Audino is so bulky :P
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 305-360 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jynx: 1505-1773 (555.3 - 654.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 411-485 (116.7 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Klinklang: 304-359 (107 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lilligant: 430-508 (153 - 180.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Mawile: 140-165 (46 - 54.2%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock<-- Threat, Mawile OHKOs back.. Intimidate :(
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Samurott: 390-460 (117.8 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scyther: 409-484 (145.5 - 172.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 413-486 (116.6 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 912-1076 (273 - 322.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With Swords Dance I did all of S rank, and A+ rank. GG, Cacturne wins. Imagine +4 O.o

 

[ryan]

Can we drop Flareon to, like, Mid C-High D Rank? There is very little reason to run it in this meta, especially over Rapidash. Flareon was only placed so high before because of the relevance of Typhlosion and that era has come to a close. It's slow, has poor coverage, and finds few switch in opportunities in this meta.

252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 388-457 (110.2 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 295-348 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

flareon also has priority and superpower. "poor coverage" my ass:
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 177-209 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Thick Fat Hariyama: 204-240 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regirock: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 246-290 (59.4 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

it 2hkos everything but like solid rock carracosta with just flare blitz and superpower. it's not like it has to predict. you just click fucking buttons and call it a day lol. and because it only needs flare blitz and superpower you get to run sleep talk and beat the shit out of lilligant.

B- is fine in this meta esp because lanturn is far and away the most common fire resist.

 

[r0ady]

252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 388-457 (110.2 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 295-348 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

flareon also has priority and superpower. "poor coverage" my ass:
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 177-209 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Thick Fat Hariyama: 204-240 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regirock: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 246-290 (59.4 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

it 2hkos everything but like solid rock carracosta with just flare blitz and superpower. it's not like it has to predict. you just click fucking buttons and call it a day lol. and because it only needs flare blitz and superpower you get to run sleep talk and beat the shit out of lilligant.

B- is fine in this meta esp because lanturn is far and away the most common fire resist.

you can also run baton pass for some momentum n_n

 

[Cosmicmemer]

Imo swoobat shouldn't be d rank. At only one calm mind, it lives thunderbolt from analytic eviolite magneton(which activates WP), and shazam: instant stored power sweep. It gets heat wave to deal with even the bulkiest of magnets, not to mention mawile and Klinklang. With only four relevant dark types in the meta, not very much can absolutely wall it. if you feel like running max speed and spatk Kee berry or whatever, it outspeeds like everything other than sneasel and swellow. It isn't amazing or anything, I just feel it's a tad bit better than a lowly D rank.

 

[Deej Dy]

252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 388-457 (110.2 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 295-348 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

flareon also has priority and superpower. "poor coverage" my ass:
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 177-209 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Thick Fat Hariyama: 204-240 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regirock: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 246-290 (59.4 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

it 2hkos everything but like solid rock carracosta with just flare blitz and superpower. it's not like it has to predict. you just click fucking buttons and call it a day lol. and because it only needs flare blitz and superpower you get to run sleep talk and beat the shit out of lilligant.

B- is fine in this meta esp because lanturn is far and away the most common fire resist.

I mean for Lanturn Rapidash can just run Drill run. It can also combine Wisp + Morning Sun with the Life Orb set to beat all of those other threats (and outspeed them unlike Flareon). I think Flareon does have poor coverage and a terribad movepool like Disjunction pointed out, seeing as it only has Flare Blitz, Superpower, Facade, Flame Charge and Quick attack as options (and Body Slam and Double Edge if you want to run that for some reason).

Mostly the reason it's not as good as Rapidash with the physical set is that, despite not 1hkoing Kanghaskan (a extremely rare occurrence, Rapidash can Wisp and beat it anyway with life orb set), it is slower and lacks as much coverage as Rapidash (Wild Charge, Drill Run, Flare Blitz, Low Kick,). Rapidash can also choose to run Band or Life orb, not just Band like offensive Flareon. Of course the guts set is an option, but i would never, ever consider it over the likes of Zangoose or even Ursaring which have much better coverage and are not reliant on Superpower and its stat decreases to break rock types.

Meanwhile the defensive set isn't as good as Monferno which outclasses it in nearly every single way possible with better speed, movepool options (access to rocks,taunt,encore, quick recovery) and special bulk with Eviolite. The only way it doesn't get outclassed is with Flareon's wish passing set with a dismal base 65 hp.

Flareon is certainly over-ranked, maybe we don't have to jump straight to D+ argument, but perhaps a compromise. I can't see it at B- though.

 

[Disjunction]

252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 388-457 (110.2 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 295-348 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

flareon also has priority and superpower. "poor coverage" my ass:
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 177-209 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Thick Fat Hariyama: 204-240 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regirock: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 246-290 (59.4 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

it 2hkos everything but like solid rock carracosta with just flare blitz and superpower. it's not like it has to predict. you just click fucking buttons and call it a day lol. and because it only needs flare blitz and superpower you get to run sleep talk and beat the shit out of lilligant.

B- is fine in this meta esp because lanturn is far and away the most common fire resist.

OK, I probably was overstating its coverage options when you take into account Flareon's notably larger Attack stat. However, I truly don't think that a stronger Flare Blitz plus Superpower gives it any great advantages over Rapidash. I want to make a pro and cons list here to high light the differences here.

Flareon's Pros-

• Ability to 2HKO bulky Rock-types. Rapidash can only nail a 3HKO on Regirock and Rhydon with Drill Run.
• Less reason to predict because of a stronger Flare Blitz. (Scoring the 2HKO w/ Rocks up on resists as opposed to consistent 3HKO.)
• Noticeably higher Special bulk.

Rapidash's pros-

• Way more important Speed tier. 105 lets Rapidash combat offensive teams while punching holes through balance. Outspeeding relevant threats like Magneton, Electivire, Kangaskhan (I understand your example was to outline the power gap between the two, but I don't think it's very realistic considering Kanga outspeeds and OHKO's you anyhow), Lilligant, and Sawk to name a few that Flareon doesn't. Similarly, you speed tie with offensive threats like Scyther, Cryogonal, and Mismagius. This limits the amount of Pokemon that can come in after a nuke and revenge kill, preserving your momentum.
• Large number of tools in its belt to beat checks. I understand there is less reason to predict with Flareon, but Rapidash still has Drill Run to nail Lanturn and Regirock/Rhydon (kindasorta), Wild Charge to nail Pelipper, Megahorn for Malamar if you're really paranoid, and still the same tools Flareon can abuse like Baton Pass, Will-O-Wisp, and even Quick Attack (which I wouldn't count as a "pro" for Flareon if it is forced into running a weak, non-STAB priority attack to cope against Offense.)
• Set variation. While Flareon has one job, it does it well, and there's no reason for it to ever need to run any other set, Rapidash can run either one of two sets: CB or Life Orb. CB clearly has the advantage with raw power, Life Orb has the freedom to pick and choose its checks and counters. Will-O-Wisp cripples bulky Rock-types + Hariyama, Morning Sun helps prolong Rapidash's field presence on forced switches (which it gets a lot of), and you have the freedom to switch up moves which definitely helps in any situation where you could have mispredicted with a coverage move.

I was definitely jumping the gun calling for such a big drop, but I certainly think B- is a bit gracious for it in today's more offensive meta.

 

[ryan]

105 Speed isn't even that good because it misses out on Tauros and Sneasel, at least one of which is on pretty much every team.

Where is this offensive metagame coming from? Am I the only one who sees nothing but balance on the ladder and in tournaments?

Great Rapidash has Drill Run to 2HKO Lanturn and 3HKO Rhydon and Regirock. Flareon has Flare Blitz to 2HKO Rapidash and Superpower to 2HKO Rhydon and Regirock.

Flareon isn't "forced" to run Quick Attack. It runs it because all it fucking needs is Flare Blitz and Superpower.

Wow you can run Megahorn on Rapidash to beat Malamar. Guess what, you can run Flare Blitz on Flareon to beat Malamar.
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 360-424 (95.7 - 112.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Basically what you're saying is that Simipour is better than Samurott because Simipour outspeeds things. Wait, Samurott 2HKOs the entire tier while Simipour fails to 2HKO the majority of the tier. Sounds familiar.

Monferno completely outclasses SpDef Flareon which has Wish, Roar, and Heal Bell and checks completely different things? News to me.

Wow! Rapidash has to run Will-O-Wisp + Morning Sun to beat stuff. Sounds like that coverage isn't so good anymore.

Flame Plate Flareon exists and is a Good Set™. You aren't forced to run Choice Band; it just gets 2HKOs that Flame Plate Flareon and any item Rapidash miss out on.

And yes, as Disjunction pointed out, the reason why I posted the Kangaskhan calc was to show the power difference in the same way that I use 0/0 Mew or Manaphy for power difference comparisons in OU.

I feel like I keep having these arguments every weak where people say wallbreakers are outclassed by weaker but faster Pokemon that can't wallbreak nearly as effectively.

e: if you're this mad @ flareon, check my replay and tell me how rapidash could have single-handedly won me that game like flareon did: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nususpecttest-236094613

 

[Deej Dy]

You think this is like comparing Simipour (Rapidash) to Samurott (Flareon). However, I see this similar to a comparison of Zangoose (Rapidash) and Ursaring (Flareon).

Ok, away from the topic of Rapidash, why would you ever run offensive band Flareon over Zangooze and Ursaring?
Both have more power and aren't even locked into one move. Ursaring is B- rank and it hits harder, has more bulk, and coverage options. This alone should show how outclassed it is (yeah I know Rapidash is ass, I'm not trying to rank Rapidash higher. I'm just comparing one bad mon to another)

252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 345-406 (101.1 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 376-444 (110.2 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 322-381 (94.4 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Yes it's strong... Rampardos, Beeheeyem, and Zwelious are strong too. But Strength alone cannot justify a B- rank. A 65 base speed that is weak to SR ultimately dooms it.
It rarely can ever come in and either outspeed or tank a hit, and if it does get a flare blitz off it loses a large chunk of HP from that in conjunction with SR damage. In reality, it gets off 1, maybe 2 attacks per game, unless you are facing a very slow team and SR is never up.

There is a reason is has extremely low usage.

 

[Disjunction]

105 Speed isn't even that good because it misses out on Tauros and Sneasel, at least one of which is on pretty much every team.

105 is, at the least, much better than 65. In the case vs. offense your opponent is forced into one or two options instead of several.

Where is this offensive metagame coming from? Am I the only one who sees nothing but balance on the ladder and in tournaments?

K, misspoke here. Yes, balance is the best play style right now, but I've seen way more offensive balance being more effective than any bulkier balance teams. Rapidash does better vs the former, Flareon to the latter.

Wow you can run Megahorn on Rapidash to beat Malamar. Guess what, you can run Flare Blitz on Flareon to beat Malamar.
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 360-424 (95.7 - 112.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

This isn't true in the case that Malamar has a +1 or +2 boost prior to Flareon switching in.

calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 240-283 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Rocks are meaningless here, Malamar isn't going to switch into Flareon)
+1 4 Atk Malamar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flareon: 220-261 (81.1 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Rapidash Megahorn vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 364-432 (96.8 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Malamar won't switch in vs Flareon, that's plain stupid. Best case scenario here, Malamar gets left with ~20% and Flareon dies to Knock + Recoil. Rapidash has more room to revenge kill it with Megahorn which is why I made a mention of it.

Wow! Rapidash has to run Will-O-Wisp + Morning Sun to beat stuff. Sounds like that coverage isn't so good anymore.

Blitz/Drill/Wisp/Sun. Blitz/Drill/Charge/Wisp. Blitz/Drill/Charge/Sun. Blitz/Drill/Charge/BP. (Low Kick is garbage btw.) All great combinations to deal with every Fire resist in the tier. It doesn't NEED to run Wisp and Sun to beat shit, it does because it could help depending on your team.

Flame Plate Flareon exists and is a Good Set™. You aren't forced to run Choice Band; it just gets 2HKOs that Flame Plate Flareon and any item Rapidash miss out on.

I'm not going to comment on Flame Plate because I haven't used it and it certainly sounds like a fun alternative, but aside from Yama, Granbull, Regi, and Rhydon, (3 of which hate switching into Will-O too) what 2HKO's does Rapidash even miss out on that Flareon gets? This is my main point of why Rapidash is just as good, if not better, than Flareon. It smashes the same switch ins, but with waaay more speed. Quag still shits on both too.

EDIT: ok I accidentally deleted this part of my argument so let me put it back in here

Basically what you're saying is that Simipour is better than Samurott because Simipour outspeeds things. Wait, Samurott 2HKOs the entire tier while Simipour fails to 2HKO the majority of the tier. Sounds familiar.

I'm not saying that. Samu has a potent SD set which can beat the regular wall breaks checks very nicely. Not to mention it's a superior wall breaker because of its wide assortment of coverage options and utility moves. Simi only has 3, maybe 4, options for coverage. Samu has better coverage + utility + usable priority which makes it a better wall breaker. Flareon has a slightly more useful Flare Blitz and Superpower.

 

[Adaire]

Musharna A --- A+
Moving on from Flareon, not even gonna comment on that because I don't wanna make enemies xd

Musharna is a great pokemon right now, yes the rise of cacturne and sneasel may scare it but I have been running a colbur berry signal beam set very effectively but that's just me. Musharna is a great mon in the current meta as there are a large number of things it can do, imo the calm mind colbur berry set is the best as it finds many opportunities to set up and can easily function as a great sweeper. Just a simple max hp max defense set can wall a lot of things and it is very rare a mon can 2HKO it. It can run things like baton pass calm mind which is very effective due to musharna's bulk and can easily get a baton pass onto things like magneton, audino etc. It also boasts running a great support set with reliable recovery, heal bell and baton pass for momentum, this set is great for stall teams as it can provide a great heal bell mon with recovery that isn't mega audino which opens up possibilities of running crodino. Now yes stall may not be that effective in the meta, it's still a positive trait to what it can run. It's other set is a great win con which is barrier + calm mind, this set is incredibly effective as it's massive bulk easily lets it set up on a giant amount of top tier threat, that being magneton, archeops, mesprit, uxie and so on. It's only slight flaw is it's lack of moves to hit dark types but that can easily be worked around. Overall Musharna is a great pokemon in the current meta which boasts being able to set up on pretty much half the tier, this in my eyes is very deserving on A+, it's definitely the best calm mind sweeper in NU right now as it's bulk and recovery are just amazing.

calcs

This is personally my favorite set which is colbur, signal beam which deals with dark types, the main threats to musharna in the first place :P

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Musharna: 153-181 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 206-246 (47.5 - 56.8%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Musharna Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasel: 146-172 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Dark Pulse vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Colbur Berry Musharna: 175-208 (40.4 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Musharna Signal Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cacturne: 344-408 (121.9 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 4 Atk Malamar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Musharna: 118-139 (27.2 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Musharna Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 200-236 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You may call these calcs cherry picking but it still shows how musharna is able to beat dark types which is a massive niece for a cm sweeper

Musharna also benefits from the lack of things like scyther, klinklang,rhydon and mawile due to magneton, which are things that can set up and easily defeat musharna. Even things like specs magneton, musharna can set up if at full health, this demonstrates how good musharna really is in this meta being able to defeat top tier threats.

 

[Evan.]

Yeah I support Musharna for A+ and E-Vire for A-. Musharna is the best answer to fighting types right now while still having a ton of versatility in being Barrier CM, CM 2 Attacks, Pivot, OTR, and CM Pass. Easily one of the most versatile and annoying mons in the tier and deserves to move up. E-vire is just really good in Magnets meta because of its speed coverage and abilities, although expect me to nom it for a drop if Magneton does in fact leave the tier.

Stardust Dragon There is no way in hell that Cacturne is an A+ mon lol. Its ok in A- right now but your reasoning as to why it should move up is incredibly flawed. The only set it should be running right now is Specially Biased LO since it breaks the most effectively and provides utility in spikes/d-bond. SD not good at all since sucker punch is incredibly unreliable. The fact that you cant actually break Grass resists without them attacking you means that you're fodder for Weezing and Fletch, Garbodor stacks spikes on you for free and forces sucker punch mind games, even Vileplume can force mind games with sucker punch, which makes it incredibly unreliable as a sweeper. You drop a stupidly big wall of calcs that really dont mean shit considering that half the mons there have a way around the SD set. Keep it in A-.

Also can we get some more discussion on Mesprit to A+? It really isnt worthy of the S-Rank anymore since it isnt nearly as versatile as people are saying it is. It can run a bunch of sets, but the only ones worth running are some sort of special set with Healing Wish and/or Stealth Rock, and maybe scarf which is still very meh in this meta. I think the discussion died out but its worth bringing up again.

 

[Shaneghoul]

Articuno C+ --- B
With the drops of magneton and kabutops you'd think articuno would have gotten worse but it's actually had the opposite effect. Life orb offensive articuno is very powerful and can rip holes into balance teams, which seem to be what everyones running right now as it's difficult switch into and everyone seems to be running terra, lanturn, stunfisk and togetic. With hurricane, freeze dry and hidden power ground it has great coverage and a decent speed tier which with a timid nature allows it to out speed a lot of it's threats such as kabutops, magmortar, magneton and adamant sawk and procede to ohko all except magmortar. Alternatively modest can be ran for more power while still out speeding a lot of threats although you do risk losing to jolly kabu. It can also carry signal beam to deal massive damage to malamar, u-turn for momentun or roost for survivability as it can roost on a lot due to it's great bulk. The obvious flaws are the 4x rocks weakness, although rocks are quite easy to get off the field in this meta, the fact that you have to rely on hurricane to hit and the fact that it can be revenge killed by archeops and tauros.

cals

252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Magneton: 250-296 (103.7 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Articuno: 230-272 (71.6 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Scarf Magnet)

252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 322-382 (123.3 - 146.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 213-252 (53.1 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 296-354 (78.7 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Articuno Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 328-390 (87.2 - 103.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

 

[Raseri]

looking at the higher ranks, there are a few Pokemon there that I think are pretty overrated and deserve a drop.

Hariyama:

I really am not a fan of this thing anymore, it was solid in a meta full of fire-types, but now it just doesn't do much. It is still really easy to wear down, and honestly Gurdurr is just better most of the time. It still is a decent mon, but I think its comparable to Vileplume in that its glory days are long gone and its time we let it drop. I think B+ is a good plce for Yama

Klinklang: The meta is full of Stunfisk, Quagsire, Magneton. It just doesn't do much right now. LO HP Ground is a cool magnet lure, but other than that its really not A+. A- imo

Mawile: suffers from the same problems as klink, magneton is a great check and magneton checks tend to beat this thing too. A- imo

Xatu: not a big fan of the bird rn either, a lot of the SRers it easily beat have fallen out of favour, and a lot of the new big threats handle it quite well. A or A- is better for it, since it still is a decent Pokemon

 

[freddymc]

looking at the higher ranks, there are a few Pokemon there that I think are pretty overrated and deserve a drop.

Hariyama:

I really am not a fan of this thing anymore, it was solid in a meta full of fire-types, but now it just doesn't do much. It is still really easy to wear down, and honestly Gurdurr is just better most of the time. It still is a decent mon, but I think its comparable to Vileplume in that its glory days are long gone and its time we let it drop. I think B+ is a good plce for Yama

Klinklang: The meta is full of Stunfisk, Quagsire, Magneton. It just doesn't do much right now. LO HP Ground is a cool magnet lure, but other than that its really not A+. A- imo

Mawile: suffers from the same problems as klink, magneton is a great check and magneton checks tend to beat this thing too. A- imo

Xatu: not a big fan of the bird rn either, a lot of the SRers it easily beat have fallen out of favour, and a lot of the new big threats handle it quite well. A or A- is better for it, since it still is a decent Pokemon

I agree with hariyama, but with klinklang and mawile, you're basically saying "these pokes which are common check it, therefore it should drop". Seeing magneton is being suspected and sure, everyone runs quag, stunfisk etc, doesn't mean that it's utility drops. By that logic, any poke that is checked by either quagsire, stunfisk or any other magneton check should drop. Quagsire in particular checks a lot of things like malamar and fletchinder, so they would drop too. Also anything that is killed by magneton, which there is a lot (which is why he's getting suspected) should also drop. I'm not even gonna bother listing them since there are so many. I would agree with you, but it doesn't look like magneton is staying with us much longer so I just can't.

 

[Raseri]

I agree with hariyama, but with klinklang and mawile, you're basically saying "these pokes which are common check it, therefore it should drop". Seeing magneton is being suspected and sure, everyone runs quag, stunfisk etc, doesn't mean that it's utility drops. By that logic, any poke that is checked by either quagsire, stunfisk or any other magneton check should drop. Quagsire in particular checks a lot of things like malamar and fletchinder, so they would drop too. Also anything that is killed by magneton, which there is a lot (which is why he's getting suspected) should also drop. I'm not even gonna bother listing them since there are so many. I would agree with you, but it doesn't look like magneton is staying with us much longer so I just can't.

when both the #1 Pokemon, and the most common responses to the #1 Pokemon all stop you from doing your job, you are not an A+ Pokemon. And the utilty of Klinklang drops drastically, in particular. With Magneton around it needs to run volt switch or hp ground or risk being trapped. and even if magneton is the more common analytic set, klinklang still cant hurt this. And with stunfisk being as common as it is, Klinklang cant attack at all without risking a paralysis. It also struggles to break torterra due to its bulk, and although it can beat lanturn, it risks a scald burn. Does that sound like an A+ rank to you? If magneton gets banned, we can move it back. But the rankings should represent this metagame.

 

[Orphic]

Two rather short and quick nominations i can't see much opposition to:

Sawk A --> A+

Right now there aren't many switch ins to this thing, particularly the banded set, while Sawk has a high enough base speed to be a great revenge killer, late game cleaner and a rather reliable clutch in a lot of games using the scarf set. Maybe it's because of the abundance of special walls right now, since Lanturn, SpD Torterra, Malamar, Uxie etc, don't take too kindly to a banded Knock Off or Close Combat. Sawk also brings great coverage and two great abilities. Garbodor doesn't stand a chance against Earthquake, or even Zen Headbutt, and Weezing, another supposed switch in, gets straight up annihilated by Mold Breaker EQ. Sawks ability to destroy whole defensive cores means it should be higher than A, and definitely A+.

Ludicolo A- --> A

Ludicolo meets all the requirements for an A rank mon, on strength and reliability in carrying out its role. Currently, since all the mons that switch into Magneton are weak to grass, Ludicolo is finding itself with more and more set up opportunities and forced switches for it's offensive Rain Dance set. Torterra is 2HKO'd by LO Ice Beam, Lanturn and Stunfisk don't stand up against a Giga Drain either. Since the most prominent playstyle is balance right now, it's a great meta for Ludicolo as it destroys balanced teams in seconds with the offensive Rain Dance set, with its fantastic coverage, dual stab and power, this thing is definitely higher than A- right now.

 

[Realistic Waters]

Gogoat C- ---> C+

Gogoat @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Horn Leech
- Substitute
- Earthquake

This is something you need to watch out for as it will sweep unprepared teams. ;o
Been using it on the suspect ladder (almost got reqs now :L) and this thing has proved it's self to be a valuable member, surprised it's so low in the rankings but i'd like to see it moved up.

• Fairs well in the meta as people are forced to bulky mons for Magneton such as Lanturn, Stunfisk, Torterra and more where gogoat gets many set-up opportunities thanks to it's typing and bulk
  
• Sap Sipper comes in handy raising your attack when being stuck by a grass attack
• Coverage options particularly earthquake let it get past Magneton and Pyroar etc
• Great against balanced/stall teams

calcs lol

252+ SpA Mesprit Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gogoat: 140-166 (31.1 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Lanturn Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gogoat: 94-112 (20.8 - 24.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gogoat: 184-217 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gogoat: 153-183 (34 - 40.6%) -- 48.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Torterra Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gogoat: 85-101 (18.8 - 22.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gogoat: 37-44 (8.2 - 9.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Gogoat: 283-338 (62.8 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (bulk up)
+1 4+ Atk Gogoat Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pyroar: 308-364 (98.4 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gogoat: 374-439 (83.1 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Obviously there's still a lot that holds it back though such as being unable to break past certain things like Weezing, isn't that effective against hyper offence due to being pretty slow, multiple weaknesses and fletchinder tho it can catch them off guard with an earthquake when they roost otherwise your just gonna have a hard time. You can always pair it with some support to get past these counters tho. ;x

 

[Adaire]

Here are two nominations I would really like to see go through n_n

B+ ---> A- Regirock is really good right now, I thought it was A- for the longest time until I saw it sitting in B+. Regirock is a great wall as you would expect boasting a amazing 200 defense and 100 special defense which makes it a great wall, it has great utility moves as well such as stealth rock, sunny day and t-wave. It can run max spdef or max attack and still have incredible defense to wall physical attackers, even kabutops can't break through it as waterfall only does 50% which then risks being paralyzed. It walls things like scyther, sneasel (barring low kick), archeops, tauros, fletchinder, pyroar and so on, It also has above average attack which is helpfull for using drain punch to get health back, earthquake to hit magneton and any rock stab. Overall regirock is a really good mon that can usually take at least one hit and get rocks/paralyze the opponent.

B- ---> B Poliwrath is a cool mon in this meta, it can check a lot of top threats such as kabutops and sneasel and still run a effective specs/life orb set at the same time thanks to it's typing. It's also the only viable mon in the meta with special priority being vacuum wave which is a great niche for a B- rank mon. It gained a lot of popularity in NUPL for good reason, really solid mon in this meta even if magneton and fletch annoy it to where it can't be higher

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Nominating Lairon from Unranked --> C

Lairon @ Custap Berry
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Metal Burst
- Head Smash
- Earthquake

With the release of Custap Berry Lairon has become a solid lead in the current meta. Sturdy guarantees that you survive any hit and get up Stealth Rock always. Afterwards, you can follow up with a Metal Burst and usually get a kill against the likes of Stunfisk and Archeops with their Ground coverage. Head Smash is insanely powerful and makes it very risky to play around Metal Burst. Either way your opponent is going to take a lot of damage. Earthquake is for our good friend Magneton.

So pretty much if you play him right he's a suicide lead that gets up Rocks and gets a kill. Archeops can do essentially the same thing but it loses momentum after using Endeavor since they still need to finish off your mon at 1 HP. Lairon guarantees the kill and forces your opponent to revenge kill you. Subtle but important difference.

 

[Deej Dy]

Nominating Lairon from Unranked --> C

Lairon @ Custap Berry
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Metal Burst
- Head Smash
- Earthquake

With the release of Custap Berry Lairon has become a solid lead in the current meta. Sturdy guarantees that you survive any hit and get up Stealth Rock always. Afterwards, you can follow up with a Metal Burst and usually get a kill against the likes of Stunfisk and Archeops with their Ground coverage. Head Smash is insanely powerful and makes it very risky to play around Metal Burst. Either way your opponent is going to take a lot of damage. Earthquake is for our good friend Magneton.

So pretty much if you play him right he's a suicide lead that gets up Rocks and gets a kill. Archeops can do essentially the same thing but it loses momentum after using Endeavor since they still need to finish off your mon at 1 HP. Lairon guarantees the kill and forces your opponent to revenge kill you. Subtle but important difference.

I like the idea behind the nomination, as I've seen success with this several times as a lead. However, C rank is too much of a reach imo. I'd perhaps look more into nomming it for D rank, and I'd be inclined to agree because it's a nice anti-lead that can almost always get up rocks (barring Xatu mindgames +Headsmash misses)

 

[ryan]

Mawile: suffers from the same problems as klink, magneton is a great check and magneton checks tend to beat this thing too. A- imo

n
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Stunfisk: 356-421 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 448-528 (111.7 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 213-251 (88 - 103.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 195-230 (80.5 - 95%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

i agree w/ it dropping bc the meta has naturally adapted around it without really trying but imo it should be A. i've been using it a ton as an offensive sr setter bc it checks sneasel and scyther on offense which is kind of a big deal, and it's so fucking good. and sd obviously breaks shit. ferroseed beats it tho.