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Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Ares
- Start date
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How does Gallade affect other mons? like what does it make more viable and less viable?
for one, it looks to be a pretty hard check to magneton. magneton requires a +def nature and at least 252 HP/92 Def to live a post-swords dance drain punch on a low roll, and even if you max out def and HP in EVs, a high roll +2 drain punch will still kill:
+2 252+ Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Magneton: 260-308 (85.5 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
...so until the end of this suspect test (wherein he's inevitably banned, lbr), bulkier magnetons are likely to pop up more, I'd say
e: also, I still don't fully understand why tauros is still up in s-tier, but gallade checks him at worst, too:
252 Atk Tauros Double-Edge vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 232-274 (70.3 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 296-348 (89.6 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 272-324 (93.4 - 111.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gallade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 656-774 (225.4 - 265.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Magneton: 260-308 (85.5 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
...so until the end of this suspect test (wherein he's inevitably banned, lbr), bulkier magnetons are likely to pop up more, I'd say
e: also, I still don't fully understand why tauros is still up in s-tier, but gallade checks him at worst, too:
252 Atk Tauros Double-Edge vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 232-274 (70.3 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 296-348 (89.6 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 272-324 (93.4 - 111.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gallade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 656-774 (225.4 - 265.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yes, we've gained another offensive Magneton check, but most offensive mons can revenge kill Magneton because of its poor speed. The problem is Magneton's lack of defensive answers that can also block Volt Switch. Magneton will not run any bulkier sets because that will just make the few defensive answers we have (that are on every team) even safer switch ins. Adding another offensive mon that can't block Volt Switch won't change that.
Tauros is the definition of S-tier. Its great power, speed, and coverage are perfect for beating down offense and dismantling cores. It is possibly one of the most splashable mons for offense, next to Sneasel. Tauros/Archeops are THE reason the base 110 Speed tier is the Speed tier to trump or check. I also fail to see how Gallade checks Tauros when it can't switch into any of its attacks, outspeed, or really punish Tauros from clicking Rock Climb at all. You also didn't include Rocks damage which is important in calcs where you have a lower chance to kill like that.
I'm also not convinced max or near max HP Gallade is the most efficient spread for it, but I won't make any more comments on that because I haven't use the set.
Sawk A+ --> A/A-
I know this just recently got put to A+, but it's so stupidly outclassed by gallade there is no reason to run it, it's only tiny niche's over gallade is five more speed and sturdy. Gallade has better movepool, better special defense, more versatility and a better typing.
Sturdy is a good enough niche to move Sawk to S imo, let alone keep it above Gallade
Sawk A+ --> A/A-
I know this just recently got put to A+, but it's so stupidly outclassed by gallade there is no reason to run it, it's only tiny niche's over gallade is five more speed and sturdy. Gallade has better movepool, better special defense, more versatility and a better typing.
But Sturdy is easily broken by any hazards and other residual damage like weak U-turns and Fake Out. Imo, Sturdy is an ability that needs teammate support, preventing Sawk from being S, if that is its niche.
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
I agree sadly sturdy is too support reliant to be a niche over gallade
Sawk A+ --> A/A-
I know this just recently got put to A+, but it's so stupidly outclassed by gallade there is no reason to run it, it's only tiny niche's over gallade is five more speed and sturdy. Gallade has better movepool, better special defense, more versatility and a better typing.
- Hazard removal is extremely easy in NU. With access to reliable defoggers and Rapid Spinners such as Prinplup, Pelipper, Archeops, Sandslash, Kabutops, and Cryogonal that fit on all team archetypes clearing the field of hazards reliably isn't exactly difficult. Keep in mind you only have to remove hazards if you anticipate Sawk needing Sturdy to check something like Archeops or Fletchinder in the late-game.
- The U-turn argument is fairly weak in my opinion as even if Sawk does lose Sturdy to a U-turn, the opponent has to let something take a huge hit (theres not a lot in the tier that reliably switches into two Sawk hits).
- The Fake Out argument is even weaker, as A. it's an extremely weak attack that does negligible damage to a teammate should Sawk switch out. and B. it's extremely rare and blatantly obvious when the opponent has a Fake Out user and intends to use it.
For the same reasons I listed above Sturdy is simply a plus. Sawk is consistently on the same power level as Gallade when compared to most relevant physically defensive Pokemon in the tier. Having a way to check any offensive threat in the tier, in addition to Sawk's current traits is enough to put it over Gallade, regardless of how reliable that way is. (keep in mind most higher level players would agree its pretty reliable given the tools at our disposal)
tl;dr Sawk and Gallade are essentially the same Pokemon in NU, the STAB boost Gallade gains on Zen Headbutt is negligible, Sawk sits in a better Speed tier, Sawk has access to better abilities in Mold Breaker and Sturdy. The only reason I can possibly see for Gallade being ranked any higher than Sawk is the ability to run a Specially Defensive set, which shouldn't take anything away from how good Sawk is.
Deej Dy
Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
Kiyo
"The only reason I can possibly see for Gallade being ranked any higher than Sawk is the ability to run a Specially Defensive set, which shouldn't take anything away from how good Sawk is."
Well that and the fact that it can boost with SD and has access to priority (I've tried out Shadow Sneak +SD and its not as bad people may assume).
Not going to mention the other huge amount of moves, because I agree on some levels that most are not applicable and have a relatively small niche. IDK about the sturdy argument though, I usually find running Prinplup or literally anything not Xatu or Defog-chops as a huge liability to my team synergy and momentum.
"The only reason I can possibly see for Gallade being ranked any higher than Sawk is the ability to run a Specially Defensive set, which shouldn't take anything away from how good Sawk is."
Well that and the fact that it can boost with SD and has access to priority (I've tried out Shadow Sneak +SD and its not as bad people may assume).
Not going to mention the other huge amount of moves, because I agree on some levels that most are not applicable and have a relatively small niche. IDK about the sturdy argument though, I usually find running Prinplup or literally anything not Xatu or Defog-chops as a huge liability to my team synergy and momentum.
Yeah SD can be considered when talking about Gallade, its definitely not terrible (although I'm not sold on Shadow Sneak yet). As a matter of personal preference, I tend to overlook such things on a Pokemon with a base stat > 110 as at that point I feel like not using Choice Band or Choice Specs is just missing out on reliable and consistent damage output.
Just to add on some more,
just gonna quick quote from the chat because I'm lazy
[21:08] +Blaziken1337: I mean they aren't saying it's bad, just that it needs supporty
[21:08] +Blaziken1337: *support
[21:09] +Blaziken1337: which I mean, yes, it does need hazard support to keep sturdy intact
[21:09] +Blaziken1337: personally I think
[21:09] +Blaziken1337: sawk's fine where it is
[21:11] +Blaziken1337: but I mean at the same time, gallade has a number of benefits over sawk which warrants it being higher
[21:12] +Blaziken1337: wisp, taunt, trick, bulk up, swords dance, psychic stab that isn't contact, special bulk, neutral to psychic
Oh, also drain punch and sneak.
Anyways, to utilize sturdy properly, Sawk needs some form of support to keep hazards off it's side of the field, which I mean we have a lot of decent spinners and defoggers rn, and Xatu exists, not to mention we have a few other good common mons right now that either should have or really like hazard support, ie Sneasel, Pinsir, Fletchinder, etc. I wouldn't be too concerned about a drop to A, but meh. Sawk pulls off band better, sturdy band is really good when used right, and I mean being able to outspeed Gallade is cool rn too. The thing is Gallade has a ton of other cool toys Sawk doesn't, and it's special bulk and typing allow it to handle a lot of things Sawk doesn't do nearly as well against, especially if hazards come into play, plus it doesn't require that hazard support to utilize it's biggest niche like Sawk meaning it's easier to use on teams.
tl;dr Sawk isn't bad at all, Gallade is better, both have niches
Yeah I have to agree with the nay-sayers that while Sturdy is nice, no way is it enough to keep Sawk above Gallade, much less in the same rank.
It's only on the same power level (Sawk actually has less since no STAB on its Psychic coverage) if you compare their raw power, but Gallade has several advantages over Sawk, namely its ability to boost and that its Psychic coverage isn't contact.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 367-434 (98.1 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 398-470 (109.3 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Gallade Knock Off vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 222-262 (51.2 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Swords Dance makes Gallade far more efficient at breaking cores than Sawk is. LO Adamant Gallade absolutely shreds Gourgeist, a foe that Sawk can only defeat if it predicts on the switch; Gourgeist cannot even respond to a boosted Gallade even on a safe switch, unlike against Sawk. Not making contact allows Gallade to dispose of the likes of Garbodor and Vileplume without any hassle, while Sawk is still considering Earthquake for the former. The ability to boost means that Gallade's Knock Offs can still bring down the bulky Psychics even if they are healthy and itemless (again, unlike Sawk, which is pretty much hard countered by Musharna for the most part), meaning Gallade can just throw out Knock Offs early-game without fear of weakening its future Knock Offs since it can simply boost them back up.
The STAB boost is pretty relevant when it comes to Choice sets, since it gives Gallade an alternate and/or much safer attack to lock into as it still possesses good killing power. The better Speed tier is the one that is pretty negligible, as most foes used to revenge the two far outspeed them anyway (a more relevant difference in speed tiers would be say Simipour vs Floatzel), and the now crowded 80-85 Speed tier is pretty subject to change since anyone of them is now conflicted to run a speed boosting nature; Sawk would probably dislike being forced to run Jolly as it would see a noticeable drop in power, while Gallade wouldn't mind nearly as much as Swords Dance can make up for its power (as seen in the calcs above). Mold Breaker is not actually that useful when you consider that Gallade's Psycho Cut does pretty much what you want Mold Breaker EQ to do anyway, so frankly it becomes somewhat of a waste now. The only reason I can possibly see Sawk even being used over Gallade is Sturdy, and Garbodor being common af right now isn't helping Sawk's case.
Yeah I'm not seeing this; Gallade has pretty much all of Sawk's moves at its disposal + Psychic STAB, and then it even has Trick in the event that it needs to switch moves. You could argue that Sturdy makes it so that Sawk isn't forced out as often, but by nature of a Choice user that still happens frequently (especially when not locked into Close Combat, or even if it is), and you can be pressured to keep hazards off the field just so that Sawk can try to maintain its advantage over Gallade...or you can just use Gallade and not worry about that, and you get more corebreaking power in return.
The simplest reason people are nomming for Sawk to drop (myself included) is that players preparing for a Gallade meta (ex: Colbur Gourgeist, Granbull) will naturally be more insulated against Sawk, whereas preparing for Sawk does not necessarily mean one is safe from Gallade. Sawk still has its uses (mainly its Dark resistance allowing it to resist things like Foul Play and Sucker Punch) so it probably shouldn't drop too low, but I believe if Sawk wants to stay truly relevant in this meta, it would need to start taking a different approach now; I'm thinking Taunt + 3 attacks since it has a safer time breaking through Gourgeist than Gallade would, and it would be able to make use of Sturdy more efficiently.
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nomming table for C+
Avalugg is a great blanket check for most of the tier's physical attackers. It shuts down Sneasel, Tauros (with a spdef set), Archeops, Garbodor, and Scyther among many others. It finds a ton of opportunities to Spin, has reliable recovery, access to Sturdy, and even Roar so it's not set up fodder for the likes of Gurdurr or CM Psychics. The niche of being a Rapid Spinner that doesn't auto lose to Banded Sneasel is also very nice.
edit: forgot credit to Can-Eh-Dian the fellow table lover :)
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Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
hmmm I think I'm actually agreeing with this one. Sneasel is a big threat right now and avalugg eats up hits pretty well (Low Kick tho) It also has reliable recovery in Recover and Roar is a big thing for it, and it can even run Avalanche to kill stupid Xatu. The only problem I find right now with it is it's low special defense, but I think it can be C+ rank
nomming table for C+
Avalugg is a great blanket check for most of the tier's physical attackers. It shuts down Sneasel, Tauros (with a spdef set), Archeops, Garbodor, and Scyther among many others. It finds a ton of opportunities to Spin, has reliable recovery, access to Sturdy, and even Roar so it's not set up fodder for the likes of Gurdurr or CM Psychics. The niche of being a Rapid Spinner that doesn't auto lose to Banded Sneasel is also very nice.
edit: forgot credit to Can-Eh-Dian the fellow table lover :)
Ok, I'm gonna go ahead and apologize ahead of time just incase I totally just missed it, but I can't find slaking in the viability rankings. If he's considered unusable, that is complete bs, he is very useable. Yeah, his ability is terrible, but he hits like a tank, has crazy hp, and can revenge kill nearly everything.
But every time you make a move with Slaking, you are then punished by being able to do absolutely nothing the following turn. This opens the door for all types of set up mons immediately. And if you plan to switch out, you are then tasked with placing the incoming damage on another teammate. At that point you have lost pretty much all momentum. Thus I don't believe that Slaking's niche is all that notable.
Well he's not an S or A or anything, but I believe he is definitely worthy of a C ranking. Yes you do lose momentum, however in my opinion the benefit outweighs the cost, especially on bulkier teams that can take an extra hit. Choice scarf and choice band slaking can successfully revenge kill many of the pokemon in the tier with a 140 power stab move in retaliate and a relatively diverse move pool.
I think you're underestimating how completely horrible the momentum loss is. I haven't been in Smogon very long, but giving your opponent a free turn to do absolutely anything, whether it be switch in or set up, is completely not worth the strength of Slaking, even if it can one-shot or two-shot anything in the tier. That's not even mentioning your opponent using protect or switching in a ghost, rendering your one chance to revenge kill completely wasted and throwing away two turns.
Slaking is not something that you send in everytime a pokemon faints, just when you know you can get away with it. Such as if your opponent has no ghosts or has nothing that would possibly run protect. Once again, I'm not saying it's great, but it is usually and at least warrants a rank.
Something to keep in mind in this discussion. The follwing is the description for D rank mons: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current metagame, but have very noticeable flaws that make them more trouble than they're worth the majority of the time. These Pokemon are, for the most part, daft to use.
I definitely don't think Slaking even makes it past these standards, so I don't see it making it to D. Much less C.
I definitely don't think Slaking even makes it past these standards, so I don't see it making it to D. Much less C.
Deej Dy
Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
I always find Slaking extremely underwelming and predictable with EQ, Giga impact/Retaliate, and Night Slash coverage.
Yes, it's slightly stronger than Zangoose, but only when it's banded and using Giga Impact. However, then you have that completely useless turn, not to mention you're locked into the move anyway even after truant.
If you run Return over Giga Impact (so you can switch out) then Slaking is significantly weaker than Zangoose which doesn't even have the truant turn.
252 Atk Choice Band Slaking Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 276-325 (68.3 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not to mention it has worse coverage than than Z-Goose. Also Night Slash sucks ass, I'm not even scared to send a ghost in vs Slaking
Not even going to go into depth about Truant because it's a huge momentum sapper and makes you a sitting duck for literally anything such as:
-Lilligant Quiver Dance
-Fletchinder Swords Dance
-Shell Smash anything (and if it's smash pass with sub, just click the X)
-Shift Gear Klingklang
-Anything that is faster with Sub
-Anything using Protect
If you're not prepared for all of these threats you are essentially boned.
Yes, it's slightly stronger than Zangoose, but only when it's banded and using Giga Impact. However, then you have that completely useless turn, not to mention you're locked into the move anyway even after truant.
If you run Return over Giga Impact (so you can switch out) then Slaking is significantly weaker than Zangoose which doesn't even have the truant turn.
252 Atk Choice Band Slaking Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 276-325 (68.3 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not to mention it has worse coverage than than Z-Goose. Also Night Slash sucks ass, I'm not even scared to send a ghost in vs Slaking
Not even going to go into depth about Truant because it's a huge momentum sapper and makes you a sitting duck for literally anything such as:
-Lilligant Quiver Dance
-Fletchinder Swords Dance
-Shell Smash anything (and if it's smash pass with sub, just click the X)
-Shift Gear Klingklang
-Anything that is faster with Sub
-Anything using Protect
If you're not prepared for all of these threats you are essentially boned.
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I don't see how you can say slaking is lower than a C rank, much less a D rank. Momentum is important, however one move will nearly NEVER cost you the game. Unless you allow a set up sweeper or something of that likeness a free move, it's not as large of a deal as you portray it being. And if you do allow a free move to something that will cost you the game, that is completely the fault of the an unskilled battler with poor prediction and knowledge. Basically you are saying that switching pokemon in and out is not viable because you would allow the other team a free move. And for heavens sake delibird is a C- rank.
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