With Slaking you don't really have a choice of staying in or switching out. Either way you choose, you are really given the same result: You are absolute set up bait. So in all reality, you are allowing a set up sweeper a turn to do whatever they want with you. Also Delibird has Rapid Spin, Spikes, Destiny Bond, and Freeze-Dry among other things. That's a larger justification than a mon that might be able to do something, might not, but at the end of the turn always surrenders a free turn to the opponent.
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Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Ares
- Start date
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Well, one move CAN cost you a game, more often than you think. A mon coming in could clear the way for a sweeper, or provide wish/heal bell support, or a whole bunch of other things that I can't think of. Plus, it's not fair to say one move determining the match is the fault of a player.
Slaking's niche, if you can call it that, is its enormous attack, right? But is the niche really worth giving up one turn every time you attack?
Also, Delibird does have a niche as a suicide lead, which is arguably better than Slaking's since it comes at a much lower price.
tehy
Banned deucer.
i'd just like to pop in and say something: slaking is always valued highly by noobs, and valued much, much lower by pros
so if you're not very experienced at this game, you should take a step back and think about it, because chances are you're wrong
also just looking at your posting style, i can tell you're wrong
so if you're not very experienced at this game, you should take a step back and think about it, because chances are you're wrong
also just looking at your posting style, i can tell you're wrong
Yes, but that is assuming that they have a set up sweeper. As I said before, you don't send slaking in every time a pokemon faints, just when you know that you can, so towards the end of the match when you don't have to worry about a set up sweeper. Of course he wont work everytime, nothing does, and if they did, they would be broken, then banned.
Zangoose is more viable than slaking, however, he is not completely superior. Slakings base 100 speed and the ability to wield a choice scarf for the extra speed make him a better revenge killer.
K... I'm not saying he is great, just not completely trash enough to be unviable in NU. And I don't know what posting style has to do with this? PM me or something to explain. Or not. I don't really care.
Jim E. Russler
zap7
Are we about to get a page's worth of discussion over Slaking in a literal hour? Nice, epic, I like it. I probably don't need to elaborate on why he's a liability at this point.
This is reminding me of when I started trying to play competitively a few years ago and ran Slaking because I thought he was a lord.
This is reminding me of when I started trying to play competitively a few years ago and ran Slaking because I thought he was a lord.
in ubers :^)
I am relatively new to NU, so I will stop posting about slakings viability, however, for now I will continue to use him until I deem him no longer viable for myself.
You know we have nothing better to do with our time when we're using a page of viability rankings on the (lack of) merits of Slaking. can we pull a page from RU and blacklist Slaking plz
Anyways, to make this brief. Yes, Slaking is powerful. Yes, it can kill things. Guess what else with normal typing can hit hard. Oh, idk, maybe Ursaring, Swellow, Tauros, Dodrio, Bouffallant, Kangaskhan, and Zangoose, all of which don't have the very significant flaw of giving your opponent free turns in any scenario. All of these, even if they cannot all outdamage Slaking in one turn, aren't complete garbage because they aren't allowing your opponent the 100% free opportunity to sweep you, and even if they do lack sweepers(which I mean there are a shit-ton of good sweepers right now, most of which are common, and especially smashpass is on the rise), they can just bring in powerful attackers such as Sawk and voila, get either a free kill or at the very least force you into a terrible scenario because you have given them a free opportunity to bring said mon into play. The very few times a Slaking will actually work well vs someone who actually knows what they're doing isn't worth the very many times it won't
Also, no offense, and I hate to be the elitest, but by the fact that you're arguing a pokemon any competent experienced player knows is garbage, your lack of knowledge of the NU metagame is blatant. I'd suggest not basing a pokemon's viability on something that isn't probably matches vs low rank NU ladder players that think Gurdurr is OP and use whatever garbage set some bad poketuber used recently.
Anyways, to make this brief. Yes, Slaking is powerful. Yes, it can kill things. Guess what else with normal typing can hit hard. Oh, idk, maybe Ursaring, Swellow, Tauros, Dodrio, Bouffallant, Kangaskhan, and Zangoose, all of which don't have the very significant flaw of giving your opponent free turns in any scenario. All of these, even if they cannot all outdamage Slaking in one turn, aren't complete garbage because they aren't allowing your opponent the 100% free opportunity to sweep you, and even if they do lack sweepers(which I mean there are a shit-ton of good sweepers right now, most of which are common, and especially smashpass is on the rise), they can just bring in powerful attackers such as Sawk and voila, get either a free kill or at the very least force you into a terrible scenario because you have given them a free opportunity to bring said mon into play. The very few times a Slaking will actually work well vs someone who actually knows what they're doing isn't worth the very many times it won't
Also, no offense, and I hate to be the elitest, but by the fact that you're arguing a pokemon any competent experienced player knows is garbage, your lack of knowledge of the NU metagame is blatant. I'd suggest not basing a pokemon's viability on something that isn't probably matches vs low rank NU ladder players that think Gurdurr is OP and use whatever garbage set some bad poketuber used recently.
Slaking may hit significantly harder than Zangoose, Swellow, Tauros, etc but it is complete overkill. The offensive mons in NU are frail and they don’t need a 150 base power Giga Impact to fall them- in most scenarios a double-edge or rock climb will do just fine.
252+ Atk Zangoose Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 280-331 (101 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Zangoose Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 274-324 (94.1 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 357-420 (122.6 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sawk: 263-309 (90 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Just some examples showing you don't really need Slaking level power to be a good revenge killer (yes that is Scarf Zangoose in the calcs- still better than Slaking). These normal-types do the job nearly as well as Slaking without the cost of Loafing around every other turn.
You might say that Slaking does better vs bulkier pokemon, but that is not necessarily true. Slaking's normal type coverage can be predicted around with ghosts, rock and steel types, and the time spent doing nothing can be used to toxic stall Slaking. Meanwhile, pokemon like Zangoose and Bouffalant have Swords dance that allows them to break through bulkier teams just fine.
252+ Atk Zangoose Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 280-331 (101 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Zangoose Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 274-324 (94.1 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 357-420 (122.6 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sawk: 263-309 (90 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Just some examples showing you don't really need Slaking level power to be a good revenge killer (yes that is Scarf Zangoose in the calcs- still better than Slaking). These normal-types do the job nearly as well as Slaking without the cost of Loafing around every other turn.
You might say that Slaking does better vs bulkier pokemon, but that is not necessarily true. Slaking's normal type coverage can be predicted around with ghosts, rock and steel types, and the time spent doing nothing can be used to toxic stall Slaking. Meanwhile, pokemon like Zangoose and Bouffalant have Swords dance that allows them to break through bulkier teams just fine.
Stunfisk -> B/B-: Its niche in the meta has gone and teams are finding ways of abusing stunfisk. It sucks away momentum unless you're running a specs set and it allows for teams to be extremely weak to offensive grass + water types. Not having volt switch sucks but I can still see it being used occasionally.
mawile -> A+: Since magnets is gone, the bulkier set has become more ideal and there isn't as much fear of being trapped or abused anymore. It goes back to being one of the more reliable staple mons/pivots in teams whilst being a hard counter to sneasel / really good check for the likes of every physical threat in the top half of the viability ranking thread.
weezing -> A-: the taunt + will-o set is an extremely good example of how good / annoying this pokemon can be whilst having access to fire / poison coverage and pain split, i see a lot of reason to use it over garb whilst also still having the options of t-spikes. With the rise of gallade it might have taken a hit but I'd suggest it's a better all-round grass + mega-audino stop more than anything. Levitate is great if your team is ground weak, in general i think even though gallade is in the tier now, i'd suggest it deserves A-.
granbull -> B+: We now have a use for the bull again since gallade has ways of hitting poison types, hence we look for other checks for psychic / fighting / dark coverage in our fairy bull. I didn't realise it but granbull checks almost every physical attacker in the tier disregarding klinklang, making it a very good option to have on teams.
togetic -> B+: The same as granbull except having reliable recovery + defog is what gives togetic its niche here whilst its setbacks are rocks weakness and knock off weakness too.
poliwrath -> B+: This thing is a threat. The special set has literally no switch ins unless mantine which went extinct during magnet times. Whilst also being a great sneasel check, kabu check (which are rare nowadays tbh) and having the ability to be defensive or specially offensive, i think B- is just too low for poliwrath.
gourgeist-s -> B-: I don't really see why people would want to run this pokemon and i'm not 100% sure why the speed gives it such a high ranking. It's reliant on status such as will-o or leech seed to be effective and is completely bummed by anything with sub or xatu which just sets up for days. In 9/10 scenarios I'd prefer to use the bulkier gourgeist with access to synthesis and more bulk and in general i'm not too keen on this pokemon at all. I would appreciate some input on this nom too.
delibird -> Unranked: I know it has spikes / dbond / rapid spin but I really don't see why this warrants a rank where in pretty much every scenario i can think of, i'd prefer crustle / garb / ferroseed / roselia or any other spike setter in the tier. my only thought would be that it has ice move + spikes to scare away xatus but is that really a reason to give it C-?
mawile -> A+: Since magnets is gone, the bulkier set has become more ideal and there isn't as much fear of being trapped or abused anymore. It goes back to being one of the more reliable staple mons/pivots in teams whilst being a hard counter to sneasel / really good check for the likes of every physical threat in the top half of the viability ranking thread.
weezing -> A-: the taunt + will-o set is an extremely good example of how good / annoying this pokemon can be whilst having access to fire / poison coverage and pain split, i see a lot of reason to use it over garb whilst also still having the options of t-spikes. With the rise of gallade it might have taken a hit but I'd suggest it's a better all-round grass + mega-audino stop more than anything. Levitate is great if your team is ground weak, in general i think even though gallade is in the tier now, i'd suggest it deserves A-.
granbull -> B+: We now have a use for the bull again since gallade has ways of hitting poison types, hence we look for other checks for psychic / fighting / dark coverage in our fairy bull. I didn't realise it but granbull checks almost every physical attacker in the tier disregarding klinklang, making it a very good option to have on teams.
togetic -> B+: The same as granbull except having reliable recovery + defog is what gives togetic its niche here whilst its setbacks are rocks weakness and knock off weakness too.
poliwrath -> B+: This thing is a threat. The special set has literally no switch ins unless mantine which went extinct during magnet times. Whilst also being a great sneasel check, kabu check (which are rare nowadays tbh) and having the ability to be defensive or specially offensive, i think B- is just too low for poliwrath.
gourgeist-s -> B-: I don't really see why people would want to run this pokemon and i'm not 100% sure why the speed gives it such a high ranking. It's reliant on status such as will-o or leech seed to be effective and is completely bummed by anything with sub or xatu which just sets up for days. In 9/10 scenarios I'd prefer to use the bulkier gourgeist with access to synthesis and more bulk and in general i'm not too keen on this pokemon at all. I would appreciate some input on this nom too.
delibird -> Unranked: I know it has spikes / dbond / rapid spin but I really don't see why this warrants a rank where in pretty much every scenario i can think of, i'd prefer crustle / garb / ferroseed / roselia or any other spike setter in the tier. my only thought would be that it has ice move + spikes to scare away xatus but is that really a reason to give it C-?
Gourgeist is faster than gallade and can burn with will or foul play before a knock off while also having synthesis.
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OK, so, following my most recent nom I also want to nom another great Ice-type.
Aurorus to A- :)
Yeah, I'm sure I'm biased here, but Aurorus is a powerful AND versatile threat in the meta right now. Lead Sash Rocks with either Snow Warning or Refrigerate is a huge threat and can almost always get Rocks up because of its great matchup vs Xatu, every spinner in the tier, and opposing Rockers not named SpDef Regirock. Scarf Snow Warning completely shuts down every other type of weather and is a decent revenge killer, outspeeding up to Archeops and Tauros (base 110's) if you're timid. Finally, specs is literally impossible to switch into AND hits like a goddamn truck with perfect neutral coverage in Hyper Voice/Nature Power/Blizzard, Freeze-Dry, and Earth Power. Your last slot can be used to hit anything. You have Stone Edge for Cryogonal/Jynx and Psychic for Hariyama. It has other sets too, such as Rock Polish, Band with Return/Edge/Quake, and I've heard of a SpDef set but I've never seen it played.
give freezy dino the respect it deserves
Aurorus to A- :)
Yeah, I'm sure I'm biased here, but Aurorus is a powerful AND versatile threat in the meta right now. Lead Sash Rocks with either Snow Warning or Refrigerate is a huge threat and can almost always get Rocks up because of its great matchup vs Xatu, every spinner in the tier, and opposing Rockers not named SpDef Regirock. Scarf Snow Warning completely shuts down every other type of weather and is a decent revenge killer, outspeeding up to Archeops and Tauros (base 110's) if you're timid. Finally, specs is literally impossible to switch into AND hits like a goddamn truck with perfect neutral coverage in Hyper Voice/Nature Power/Blizzard, Freeze-Dry, and Earth Power. Your last slot can be used to hit anything. You have Stone Edge for Cryogonal/Jynx and Psychic for Hariyama. It has other sets too, such as Rock Polish, Band with Return/Edge/Quake, and I've heard of a SpDef set but I've never seen it played.
give freezy dino the respect it deserves
The reign of magnets is over, let the villagers come out from hiding and rejoice at it's departure! Lets put everything back to where it should be
Klinklang A- --> A+ Klinklang is now the new god, now Stunfisk and Magneton are gone it can return to it's throne, still won't be broken due to Quag but it is still amazing. It was A+ in seismitoad meta so now it's obviously going to be better.
Even with gallade, it doesn't hinder klinklang at all
+
Torterra + Lanturn A --> A-/B+ Putting these two together since they both got ranked so highly because of the influence magneton had in the meta, now it has left both can return home to B+, both of course still have good niche's in the meta, but not A rank worthy.
Xatu A --> A+ Not much to say, works as a solid gallade check with colbur and pretty much is the same as it was before Magneton entered.
Even with gallade, it doesn't hinder klinklang at all
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REIGN*The rain of magnets is over, let the villagers come out from hiding and rejoice at it's departure! Lets put everything back to where it should be
Klinklang A- --> A+ Klinklang is now the new god, now Stunfisk and Magneton are gone it can return to it's throne, still won't be broken due to Quag but it is still amazing. It was A+ in seismitoad meta so now it's obviously going to be better.
+Torterra + Lanturn A --> A-/B+ Putting these two together since they both got ranked so highly because of the influence magneton had in the meta, now it has left both can return home to B+, both of course still have good niche's in the meta, but not A rank worthy.
Xatu A --> A+ Not much to say, works as a solid gallade check with colbur and pretty much is the same as it was before Magneton entered.
I personally still see Lanturn getting a lot of usage just because of it's great typing and utility and ability to check non-EQ Magmortar and Pyroar's and stuff, being the best defensive Water type we have in NU right now. I'd say A- is probably fair, however, what I was getting at with saying it's usage will probably settle quite high, is that Klinklang should not rise back to A+, but maybe only to A. Lanturn keeps it very nicely in check, it can paralyse it, break it's subs with scald, and gets at most 3 or 4HKO'd by a +1 Frustration so acts as a nice Klinklang check.
Agree with Torterra though, probably to B+, it's role in the tier further decreasing as Magneton leaves, and Sneasel only continues to grow in popularity.
Xatu I still wouldn't say is A+ rank material. Sneasel is still so popular, and SD/BU Gallade doesn't have a problem with the Colbur Berry set, while Xatu can only T-wave it back. While Magneton is gone, yes, there are still both rotoms which check it in exactly the same way, and I feel like the popularity of Sneasel also overwhelms Xatu.
Agree with Teddeh about Stunfisk, that thing had a niche which has now dispersed.
I'd also like to suggest:
Pyroar A-->A+
What switches into it? The specs set destroys lives, honestly, and the Life Orb set is so hard to switch into without getting destroyed by Pyroar's other STAB move, it's unbelievable. Pyroar hits a nice 342 speed which outspeeds all base 105s and below, so the likes of Mismagius and Scyther and whatnot. The only swich ins i can see to a fire blast at first glance in S, A+ and A rankings are Rhydon, Lanturn, Kabutops, and potentially Uxie. Here's what Pyroar does to those:
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 105-125 (26.1 - 31.1%) -- 9.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
But if you predict right:
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 174-205 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
That is not a reliable switch in.
Or even:
252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 92-109 (22.9 - 27.1%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+
252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 152-179 (37.9 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Demolishes Lanturn before it can hit back properly.
252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 129-152 (36.6 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 148-175 (42 - 49.7%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not a reliable switch in, and not to mention, Life Orb Fire Blast + HP Grass = dead Rhydon.
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 131-154 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Uxie: 144-169 (40.6 - 47.7%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Point proven I hope :]
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
Making a few noms here since the reign of Magnets is over.
Stunfisk to B/B- Magnets is gone so it's niche is gone, but it's a pretty cool Fletch check I guess.
Klingklang to A rank Magnets is gone yay! But stuff like Lanturn are still everywhere so only nomming for A rank.
Mawile to A+ Magnets is gone, so it's sets are a lot better.
Torterra and Lanturn to A-/B+ Since Magnets are gone, thweir niches have diminished, but they're still great mons.
I agree with Pyroar to A+. That thing is a beast that not much can switch into. 106 speed is pretty damn good and although it's weak to priority moves like Aqua Jet and Mach Punch, it's a huge threat right now and deserves A+
Disagree with Xatu to A+ because Sneasel is everywhere
Also E Vire to B+ Magnets is gone, also dimisishing it's niche, but Vital Spirit helps it against Lilligant and Vivillon I guess
Stunfisk to B/B- Magnets is gone so it's niche is gone, but it's a pretty cool Fletch check I guess.
Klingklang to A rank Magnets is gone yay! But stuff like Lanturn are still everywhere so only nomming for A rank.
Mawile to A+ Magnets is gone, so it's sets are a lot better.
Torterra and Lanturn to A-/B+ Since Magnets are gone, thweir niches have diminished, but they're still great mons.
I agree with Pyroar to A+. That thing is a beast that not much can switch into. 106 speed is pretty damn good and although it's weak to priority moves like Aqua Jet and Mach Punch, it's a huge threat right now and deserves A+
Disagree with Xatu to A+ because Sneasel is everywhere
Also E Vire to B+ Magnets is gone, also dimisishing it's niche, but Vital Spirit helps it against Lilligant and Vivillon I guess
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I know Magneton shifted the meta around it, but can we at least not nominate everything that Magneton had an effect on a day after it got banned? Give the meta a few days to settle before moving things directly related to Magneton (speaking of things like Lanturn/Torterra to drop). Things barely, or not at all, affected by Magneton (Pyroar) is obviously fine
I would be down to dropping Delibird to D though, but not unranking it. The Spikes lead set is very reliable at setting up Spikes on the opponents side while keeping them away from yours. Base 75 speed isn't bad either, since it can either Spin away hazards before dying, or take something with it. Actually, since it's speed + dbond, it can usually force 5v5 situations, with a layer of spikes for you. It's not an extremely good mon, but it actually does more in practice than on paper.
I would be down to dropping Delibird to D though, but not unranking it. The Spikes lead set is very reliable at setting up Spikes on the opponents side while keeping them away from yours. Base 75 speed isn't bad either, since it can either Spin away hazards before dying, or take something with it. Actually, since it's speed + dbond, it can usually force 5v5 situations, with a layer of spikes for you. It's not an extremely good mon, but it actually does more in practice than on paper.
Ok here I am to do my first nomination for NU...
Granbull for B/B+
Right now, Granbull is a really good Pokemon on defensively oriented teams right now as it serves as a really decent blanket check to common offensive threats such as Sneasel, Gallade, Archeops, Tauros, and Kangaskhan. Granbull also has a lot of power even without investment. Granbull also has a ton of support options with great moves such as Thunder Wave, Wish, and Heal Bell in its arsenal and it can afford to run 2 of these because it gets near perfect neutral coverage with its STAB Play Rough and Earthquake.
Granbull can act as a really nice pivot on balance teams which are apparently dead with Gallade and Sneasel running around lol as I stated before it checks a ton of threats on current offense while also being able to hit hard thanks to a nice neutral STAB and above average base 120 Attack. This also partners very well with common Pokemon that tend to be on balance such as Ferroseed and Uxie. Hope this nom goes over well as it is my first one :o
Granbull for B/B+
Right now, Granbull is a really good Pokemon on defensively oriented teams right now as it serves as a really decent blanket check to common offensive threats such as Sneasel, Gallade, Archeops, Tauros, and Kangaskhan. Granbull also has a lot of power even without investment. Granbull also has a ton of support options with great moves such as Thunder Wave, Wish, and Heal Bell in its arsenal and it can afford to run 2 of these because it gets near perfect neutral coverage with its STAB Play Rough and Earthquake.
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 207-243 (53.9 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is worst case scenario i.e. if Gallade SD's on the switch)
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 320-380 (115.5 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 97-115 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasel: 362-428 (144.2 - 170.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 109-130 (28.3 - 33.8%) -- 97% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 160-190 (54.9 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (enough to knock it into Defeatist range)
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 121-142 (31.5 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 118-141 (40.5 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Can also cripple with Thunder Wave)
-1 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 120-142 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 136-162 (38.6 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Again can cripple with Thunder Wave)
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 320-380 (115.5 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 97-115 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasel: 362-428 (144.2 - 170.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 109-130 (28.3 - 33.8%) -- 97% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 160-190 (54.9 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (enough to knock it into Defeatist range)
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 121-142 (31.5 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 118-141 (40.5 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Can also cripple with Thunder Wave)
-1 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 120-142 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 136-162 (38.6 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Again can cripple with Thunder Wave)
Granbull can act as a really nice pivot on balance teams which are apparently dead with Gallade and Sneasel running around lol as I stated before it checks a ton of threats on current offense while also being able to hit hard thanks to a nice neutral STAB and above average base 120 Attack. This also partners very well with common Pokemon that tend to be on balance such as Ferroseed and Uxie. Hope this nom goes over well as it is my first one :o
Just to patch up a few things: aside from rest-talk, granbull doesn't have reliable recovery... Yep, no wish. It isn't the greatest pivot on a defensive/balanced team either, as like every fighting type that bull switches into gets knock off to rid your leftovers. After that, granbull is left quite easy to wear down. The main reason for B+ Is its ability to stop gallade, which is actually pretty nice. Other than that, nice post :JOk here I am to do my first nomination for NU...
Granbull for B/B+
Right now, Granbull is a really good Pokemon on defensively oriented teams right now as it serves as a really decent blanket check to common offensive threats such as Sneasel, Gallade, Archeops, Tauros, and Kangaskhan. Granbull also has a lot of power even without investment. Granbull also has a ton of support options with great moves such as Thunder Wave, Wish, and Heal Bell in its arsenal and it can afford to run 2 of these because it gets near perfect neutral coverage with its STAB Play Rough and Earthquake.
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 207-243 (53.9 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is worst case scenario i.e. if Gallade SD's on the switch)
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 320-380 (115.5 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 97-115 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasel: 362-428 (144.2 - 170.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 109-130 (28.3 - 33.8%) -- 97% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 160-190 (54.9 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (enough to knock it into Defeatist range)
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 121-142 (31.5 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 118-141 (40.5 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Can also cripple with Thunder Wave)
-1 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 120-142 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 136-162 (38.6 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Again can cripple with Thunder Wave)
Granbull can act as a really nice pivot on balance teams which are apparently dead with Gallade and Sneasel running around lol as I stated before it checks a ton of threats on current offense while also being able to hit hard thanks to a nice neutral STAB and above average base 120 Attack. This also partners very well with common Pokemon that tend to be on balance such as Ferroseed and Uxie. Hope this nom goes over well as it is my first one :o
iirc Gallade can run Poison jab for fairies.
I agree with Granbull moving up. It stops both Gallade and Sneasel and for that alone it should move up honestly because literally nothing else can do that. While Knock Off does remove its Leftovers, Granbull at least takes next to nothing from it and it actually allows you to consistently beat all the Fighting-types in the tier. Intimidate is also just an amazing ability in general. Not having recovery isn't the best but it tanks hits so well anyways that you can still get good use out of him. STAB Play Rough actually hurts most of the tier really hard and you can run Super Fang for anything else where EQ is subpar, like Weezing or Vileplume.
Also I want to bring up Togetic. Defog is good, but to be fair, Togetic really isn't. It's weak to SR and it doesn't have Lefties, meaning that you're forced to Roost far more often than you'd like (especially since you're so slow and you always need to be out of 2HKO range), giving your opponent free switches. Togetic has no offensive presence whatsoever, unlike Archeops, Cryogonal, Kabutops, Xatu and even Pelipper thanks to Scald. It's pretty much setup fodder for everything and either way going into Togetic completely kills your momentum. You'd think that it would be better with Gallade now in the tier, but it's far better to use Granbull alongside a Defogger that is actually good in the current meta like Archeops. There's far too many things that come in for free on Togetic and take advantage of it, like Lanturn, Archeops, Klinklang, Vileplume, Carracosta, CM sweepers... I mean you name it and it probably beats Togetic 1 vs 1 after SR. Togetic doesn't even wall many threats that other mons can't do significantly better. It also has 4MSS and its abilities are useless. Meanwhile it relies on Eviolite which is subpar when Knock Off is ubiquitous. Togetic is also dirt slow, which is really bad for a Defogger. Just look at Archeops who is such a good Defogger just because of its great speed. I could go on, but just to say that Togetic faces too much competition from better mons to be worth a team slot right now. I've tested it a lot, but just Defog doesn't make a mon good. It would be better ranked in B-.
Also I want to bring up Togetic. Defog is good, but to be fair, Togetic really isn't. It's weak to SR and it doesn't have Lefties, meaning that you're forced to Roost far more often than you'd like (especially since you're so slow and you always need to be out of 2HKO range), giving your opponent free switches. Togetic has no offensive presence whatsoever, unlike Archeops, Cryogonal, Kabutops, Xatu and even Pelipper thanks to Scald. It's pretty much setup fodder for everything and either way going into Togetic completely kills your momentum. You'd think that it would be better with Gallade now in the tier, but it's far better to use Granbull alongside a Defogger that is actually good in the current meta like Archeops. There's far too many things that come in for free on Togetic and take advantage of it, like Lanturn, Archeops, Klinklang, Vileplume, Carracosta, CM sweepers... I mean you name it and it probably beats Togetic 1 vs 1 after SR. Togetic doesn't even wall many threats that other mons can't do significantly better. It also has 4MSS and its abilities are useless. Meanwhile it relies on Eviolite which is subpar when Knock Off is ubiquitous. Togetic is also dirt slow, which is really bad for a Defogger. Just look at Archeops who is such a good Defogger just because of its great speed. I could go on, but just to say that Togetic faces too much competition from better mons to be worth a team slot right now. I've tested it a lot, but just Defog doesn't make a mon good. It would be better ranked in B-.
As for granbull; it's having to compete with mega-audino as far as the sneasel and gallade stop goes, but yes as i've already brought up, I feel it should be placed in B+.
As for togetic, i don't know where you've got it in your mind that its passive? Using togetic myself; it has an extremely good amount of variety and moves that make it unique and effective in this tier. If you have threats such as archeops, klinklang and setup sweepers coming in on togetic, it can easily use a coverage option for moves such as thunder-wave to cripple these pokemon or using moves such as nasty plot and baton pass whilst still having room for roost and gleam. And as far as I am concerned, togetic doesn't need much defensive investment to beat gallade, in fact I am pretty convinced you could use an offensive togetic to check / counter it with max special attack, or just using it as a pivot would be good enough with baton pass which maintains offensive momentum and this is something granbull can't do.
I nominated it to rise because it's seperated from granbull with the role it has on the team and it's an equally viable gallade check, however you're solely looking at it from a gallade check pov. Yes granbull is better, however togetic offers a more diverse range of team support whilst also checking gallade and this is the reason why I feel it deserves B+. Things like pivoting with baton pass (which really is huge), passing nasty plots or even just beating gallade 1v1 anyway is nice, whilst it's easier to stay healthy throughout the match with roost.
As for comparing it to archeops as a defogger; they're completely different mons since the idea is that togetic lives a hit and then defogs, archeops forces a switch since it has extreme offensive pressure. I really can't see an obvious comparison there apart from the fact that both archeops and togetic have defog.
Forgot to mention that you have 4 moves, you can easily run status moves, flamethrower/stab to deal with the majority of threats that would use it as fodder? Unless you're running something like heal bell and using it as a cleric, then you can't really complain as to why it would be passive. Personally I think the cleric set is the worst.
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Jim E. Russler
zap7
Gallade actually hits most of NU's fairies harder with other moves, so you'd be better off running a move with better coverage in that slot. Close Combat does more damage to Mega Audino and Carbink, Stone Edge does more to Togetic and ofc Mawile is immune to it.
Wigglytuff, Dedenne and NFEs are basically nonfactors, so that leaves Granbull and Mr. Mime (which is rarely seen).
Gallade's highest damage option for dealing with Granbull and Mr. Mime is Poison Jab. However, Poison Jab fails to even guarantee a 4HKO on Granbull after Intimidate. To be fair, it does 2HKO at +1 (SD+Intimidate). Mr. Mime is OHKO'd by Poison Jab, but also takes hefty damage from Stone Edge, with a very slight chance to OHKO with SR up.
-1 252+ Atk Gallade Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 110-130 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 96.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Gallade Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mr. Mime: 164-194 (74.2 - 87.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I don't feel like Poison Jab ends up being useful for Gallade often enough to justify its place on a moveset over other coverage or utility options, particularly Stone Edge.
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