Metagame NP: RU Stage 10: Your Makeup is Terrible

[Dundies]

I haven't gotten reqs yet, but I'm pretty close and my mind is set as to what my decision is on both mons being suspected.

As for Noivern, this thing is so threatening that it's not even funny. Between its extremely powerful dual STABs and Flamethrower and Choice Specs to boot, almost nothing is able to switch in. You're basically forced to run an extremely bulky Pokemon if you want a chance to switch into it or a scarfer / strong priority to beat it, which restricts teambuilding a lot. Along with that, Noivern easily just cripples a lot of its threats with Switcheroo. It also pulls off a great Taunt set that tears through stall, basically restricting any playstyle, and forcing you to sack and revenge kill almost everytime it comes in. So my vote is to BAN NOIVERN.

As for Reuniclus, you have to run something for this or you lose. Whether it's Calm Mind or Offensive Trick Room, this thing tears through unprepared things and there's very few counters, the only true counter coming to mind being Spiritomb. With Magic Guard and Calm Mind, this thing 6-0s unprepared stall and balance alike. You basically have to have something to hit it extremely hard, phasing, Taunt, or complete counters like Spiritomb. To add onto that, most of the Pokemon that switch into Reuniclus (offensive Dark-types or MegaLix) lose to offensive Trick Room, so it takes a ton of preparation and a lot of guessing to find out what set it is and how to play around it, which in turn, restricts teambuilding and overall makes for an unhealthy meta. So again, I vote to BAN REUNICLUS.

 

[sniperr]

After getting reqs, I can safely say that they're really fun to abuse, but they're clearly broken in the current meta. Noivern gets everything it needs to be good (High BP STABs, and Focus Blast + Flamethrower for coverage), including extra moves to increase its unpredictability including Switcheroo, Taunt, and U-turn. The only thing making it somewhat checkable is Hurricane misses or getting up Rocks and threatening it out. (Or run AV Reun <3) With that said, Ban
As for Reuniclus, its AV + Future Sight set is so much fun to use, but when every team carries 2 checks and a Pursuiter you know it's overcentralizing. Even though recent drops such as Scrafty can threaten it out, not a lot can switch into it and even then, you don't know what set it is. Sack its appropiate check too early and it's gg. Finally, whether its CM, or OTR it's really good so *cry* Ban

Also, once those 2 are gone, praise Virizion and Cobalion!

I used Av reuniclus too. its so good!

 

[FlamingVictini]

After playing a bit, I am certainly leaning towards voting ban on both noivern and reuniclus.

Its amazing how much noivern tears up with its strong attacks, good coverage, and utility in roost, taunt, or switcheroo. The high speed and infiltrator makes it a great revenge killer for so many things, and can smash huge holes into teams or just sweep outright when any mon that can take it on is weakened or removed. Its just way to strong and versatile for this tier.

Reuniclus brings the pain more slowly, but perhaps more surely. With great bulk and magic guard, CM sets can sweep any unprepared team, as reuniclus has very few answers, and can often still damage these answers himself and then get out safely. LO Cm is something I have been using to beat other reuniclus, and it is ridiculously strong while having a lot of bulk as well. I know that TR is again, very strong and hard to beat. Overall, I find that its very hard to prepare for and beat its numerous viable sets.

 

[xShikux]

Renuclius is a pain in the ass, and noivern is like every other birdspammer that hit ru. At the end of the Day, They both need to be banned.

 

[Teddeh]

So I'm just an NU noob who got given a team and decided to ladder and get reqs, i've not read any of the posts in the thread already so I'm just going to give my view of things. Also; thank you Meru for the team :]
So on my laddering journey, i only had one team and it had a lot of answers to the threats that are in the meta. I didn't end up using noivern but I did use reuini and i can give you my take on things.

Reuini is one of the most versatile threats I've ever used. Regen + future sight, AV, life orb, lefties + calm mind... It's really a fantastic pokemon. Due to the fact it has focus blast, it makes it extremely hard to check however since the most common resistances to psychics are steels and darks, which psychic+fighting coverage is amazing. I honestly felt there were only 2-3 decent switch ins in the tier, being bronzong, spiritomb or possibly skuntank or drapion. It's got some extreme power, amazing versatility and a very limiting factor that it has just by being on the opposition team. I did feel it was let down by its speed, until i came across a trick room sweeper reuni which was extremely threatening and made my life just a lot harder. And when facing opposing pursuit trappers, it was quite obvious that the pursuit was coming, so it left me an option to bop with focus blast which i did 3/3 times successfully (wow focus blast hit that many times? O:). All in all, reuini is extremely threatening and it is probably too much for this meta, although I am the type of person who will do everything to convince myself something doesn't deserve to be banned; so therefore I will decide to ban reuiniclus.

Ahh Noivern, this thing has literally no switch ins that resist both draco, hurricane or flamethrower. For a team that was running AV regen reuni and spdef mega-steelix, it was relatively easy to deal with. That was until i got fucked by u-turn shenanigans, switcheroo bullshit or in general had any prior damage on either of them. It's really such a fast threat with an amazing movepool that completely wipes out the idea of most offensive teams by the speed tier it sits in as well as the power it holds in its stabs or coverage moves. I have no doubts in my mind that Noivern is unhealthy for RU and I fully intend to ban it.

one of my highlight games: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-237604852
fuck stall

 

[ChilliTacos]

So I'm just an NU noob who got given a team and decided to ladder and get reqs, i've not read any of the posts in the thread already so I'm just going to give my view of things. Also; thank you Meru for the team :]
So on my laddering journey, i only had one team and it had a lot of answers to the threats that are in the meta. I didn't end up using noivern but I did use reuini and i can give you my take on things.

Reuini is one of the most versatile threats I've ever used. Regen + future sight, AV, life orb, lefties + calm mind... It's really a fantastic pokemon. Due to the fact it has focus blast, it makes it extremely hard to check however since the most common resistances to psychics are steels and darks, which psychic+fighting coverage is amazing. I honestly felt there were only 2-3 decent switch ins in the tier, being bronzong, spiritomb or possibly skuntank or drapion. It's got some extreme power, amazing versatility and a very limiting factor that it has just by being on the opposition team. I did feel it was let down by its speed, until i came across a trick room sweeper reuni which was extremely threatening and made my life just a lot harder. And when facing opposing pursuit trappers, it was quite obvious that the pursuit was coming, so it left me an option to bop with focus blast which i did 3/3 times successfully (wow focus blast hit that many times? O:). All in all, reuini is extremely threatening and it is probably too much for this meta, although I am the type of person who will do everything to convince myself something doesn't deserve to be banned; so therefore I will decide to ban reuiniclus.

Ahh Noivern, this thing has literally no switch ins that resist both draco, hurricane or flamethrower. For a team that was running AV regen reuni and spdef mega-steelix, it was relatively easy to deal with. That was until i got fucked by u-turn shenanigans, switcheroo bullshit or in general had any prior damage on either of them. It's really such a fast threat with an amazing movepool that completely wipes out the idea of most offensive teams by the speed tier it sits in as well as the power it holds in its stabs or coverage moves. I have no doubts in my mind that Noivern is unhealthy for RU and I fully intend to ban it.

one of my highlight games: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-237604852
fuck stall

Carbink is immune to draco is immune to both and resist both flamethrower and hurricane and has high sp def, but carbink is pretty bad. (just saying)

 

[Ducem]

Carbink is immune to draco is immune to both and resist both flamethrower and hurricane and has high sp def, but carbink is pretty bad. (just saying)

Was just lurking on the thread since I'm not good enough at RU to post something intelligent. But I think it goes without saying that if carbink is normally a cruddy Pokemon, but it's niche in walling noivern is enough to justify use, than that's an example of noivern centralising the meta, as plenty of people have been saying, noivern needs to go. I don't have the firmest grasp of RU (At first, I only started playing RU because jolteon, my favourite Pokemon, is pretty good in this tier. I'm more of a UU guy meself). but other people do, and they seem to all agree except for a select few.

 

[Transmuter]

I just got reqs yesterday, so I'm going to post my thoughts here.

Noivern: I wasn't sure about Noivern for the longest time while laddering with and against it. Now I've come to the conclusion that Noivern is too much for the tier, it has high speed which makes it outspeed almost the entire tier, powerful dual STAB and a great coverage move in Flamethrower. Noivern also has a very useful ability in Infiltrator which makes it hit stuff behind subs (especially helpful against sub Cobalion and Durant). The only thing that made me think twice about banning this monster is that its main moves aren't reliable (Hurricane with 70% accuracy, and Draco halving SpA), and that it can be easily revenge killed by Scarf users (Medicham, Tyrantrum, Flygon), priority (Sneasel and Mega Glalie's Ice Shard) and the very few pokemon that can naturally outspeed it (HP Ice Jolteon). But even then, I do think this Pokemon is too much for the tier, nothing can safely switch in against it, so you'll almost always need to sack a pokemon just to be able to revenge kill it next turn, in which it predicts the Ice/Rock move and switches into a pokemon that can take the hit and hit it back (Cobalion comes to mind). So yea, I'm pretty sure I'll be voting to BAN Noivern.

Reuniclus: With Doublade and Cresselia gone, Reuniclus has become a huge threat. The Calm Mind set is disgusting, as it can easily set up on bulky pokemon like Uxie and Alomomola that become useless against it due to Magic Guard which makes it not care about Toxic/Burn damage. Only thing that completely counters this thing is Taunt + Pursuit Spiritomb. Other sets are also scary, Trick Room Reuniclus completely destroyes HO teams, and does decently well against balance and stall as well. I believe Reuniclus is too much for the current RU tier, it has great bulk and power, an amazing ability and a variaty of viable sets which make it unpredictable above all else. BAN this thing.

 

[Heroes and Cons]

I'm not qualified to vote with only around a 2000 COIL rating in RU, so I will refrain from doing so. However I feel I have enough experience to at least offer my input.

I use Reuniclus myself, and honestly it is probably the best Pokemon in the tier. The only count and reliable check to it in RU are Spiritomb and Drapion, respectively. Literally everything else I have faced loses one-on-one against either the Trick Room set (my personal set) or the Calm Mind set. It's too bulky for defensive teams to wear down, especially with Magic Guard immunising it to Toxic and entry hazard damage, and it can just CM up on any support mon not carrying Taunt. Trick Room sets let it rip apart offensive teams with ease off a terrible speed stat and an monstrous base 125 Special Attack equal to the already-banned Moltres. Add to that reliable recovery, and you have one helluva broken Pokemon for RU.

While I do not use Noivern myself, I can safely say it is a powerhouse here. Base 97 Special Attack is quite powerful when backed by a Life Orb or Specs, and Noivern has excellent STAB moves to abuse it with Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Hurricane and Air Slash. Base 123 Speed is the fourth highest speed stat in the tier, outsped only by Jolteon, Accelgor and Meloetta-P, none of which can safely switch into Noivern (or OHKO it without Hidden Power Ice), and makes Noivern an offensive monster, especially factoring in its fantastic offensive movepool with Flamethrower, Dark Pulse, Focus Blast and Boomburst to use when it sees fit. furthermore, Infiltrator Taunt, Roost, U-Turn and Draco Meteor/Boomburst gives Noivern an amazing support set with its enormous speed and deceptively good invested bulk. However Noivern has slight flaws. The offensive set is walled by bulky specially defensive pokemon that are not weak to its STAB moves (Cobalion comes to mind in particular) - especially if they carry Assault Vest - and is easily revenge killed by common scarfers (as well as Accelgor / Jolteon packing HP Ice). Its support set is easy to switch into due to its lack of offensive coverage, and can easily be forced out or smote down by powerful bulky attackers such as Mega Steelix (4 Att Heavy Slam is a guaranteed 2HKO on 252 HP / 0 Def Noivern, without SR). Noivern is also weak to Stealth Rocks and therefore is relatively easy to wear down, or play around by forcing it to roost. Overall though, Noivern is also a bit too much for RU in my opinion.

 

[Miridy]

Awright
Can we please suspect smashpass

After completing the Suspect and testing both Noivern and Reuniclus I feel prepared enough to give a judgement about them.

Noivern:
Thing is ridiculous, it has been compared to Mega Pidgeot but it's much much worse, draco meteor destroys everything bar Aromatisse, and really, this is not something you can fit on every teams, you can usually find him either specs with switcheroo that can even screw over said fairy, or life orb, personally I had much more success with a 4 attack Life Orb Noivern, while you give up Roost you gain U-turn in order to quickly gain momentum, said Noivern also has incredible synergy with Life Orb Jolteon (the signal beam hp water/grass version though) the two of them easily gain momentum and thans to their speed and power can help cover offense quite easily, if you need recovery you can use something like Alomomola or Aromatisse who have good synergy with Noivern.


Oh, you also get the opportunity to use either Mega Glalie (spikes are hella good with it, did I mention that one layer of spikes and stealth rocks give Noivern a 34% chance to 2hko Max Sdef Aromatisse with Life Orb Hurricane And the chance becomes 81% with two layers, this is also taking Leftovers in consideration, explosion also helps paving the way to Noivern) or Mega Steelix.


Though, the real reason on why it's so easy to cover offense is due to Noivern's presence, it strains too much this playstyle, there are no serious answer to it, forcing players to give up hyper offense (if it isn't screen cough cough), that is not to say defensive or balanced teams have an easier time against it, Switcheroo from the specs and the sheer power it posses, there is also Taunt, but it's not that common.
I also fail to see any reasons for Noivern's presence in the tier that could make up for the terror it brings, so my conclusion is Ban

Reuniclus:
Hmm, I'll be honest, it felt a bit underwhelming, I can see how Reuni is quite hard to bring down, in a way, but RU has many ways to deal with it, even with Doublade now gone, to begin with, we got Scrafty which can set up with either Bulk Up or the more rare Dragon Dance, and has even the bulk to live a ±2 Focus Blast from Reuniclus, Drapion can easily scare it off with its offensive sets or taunt sdef, Spiritomb also stops it, Taunt Hex Jellicent is also a great check for Reuniclus lacking Shadow Ball on their moveset, Houndoom can come in on all Reuniclus moves bar Focus Blast and the proceed to scare it off with Dark Pulse, or even worse set up Nasty Plot on it, Escavalier is a full stop to all Reuniclus' sets even the trick room one, who I never saw in a single battle on the ladder, but I digress, Durant can also come in on Psyshock, Recover or Calm Mind and the proceed to kill it with X Scissors, there are also beasts like Choice Band Tyrantrum who can use Reuniclus's “slowness” in winning so that it can spam Head Smash, and really that means either Cobalion, Steelix, Defensive Hitmontop, Rhyp or something dies, Reuni will always have to behave when facing this guy (if it has Focus Blast) as a single set up opportunity for them could potentially spell doom for the player using Reuni, there are also other stuff like Trick Rotom-Mow that can trick it.

Basically while Reuniclus is a powerful win conditions I don't find him broken at all, there are too many stuff that can take advantage of it that you need to watch out for when using Reuniclus, Reuni also helps checking stuff like Cobalion who is already on every team at the moment even with Noivern and Reuniclus useable, that is not to say Cobalion is broken (yet) but Reuniclus helps check it, you could argue that this is a broken checks broken argument thing, but I don't consider Reuniclus broken at all, and if its presence helps the metagame that's quite cool.
Basically Do not Ban.


Anyways, Jolteon isn't that bad, use it more folks.

 

[Tom Bus]

Playing on the suspect ladder confirmed that both of these pokemon are broken. Noivern has enough speed to function very well against HO, and more defensive teams are forced to use spdef mega Audino (which means no mega Steelix), max spdef Aromatisse (still has a 29% chance to be 2HKO'd by specs hurricane after rocks), or Togetic, which is easily whittled into range of a 2HKO by rocks and u-turn or double switching. Noivern can always use switcheroo to cripple non-mega counters to it, as well, so it is both overpowered and overcentralising.

CM Reuniclus is checked by things like Drapion, Skuntank, and AV Escavalier, but pursuit from the latter two only does about 50%, so pairing Reuniclus with something like mega Steelix allows it to wear down checks like these with focus blast and SR damage. Spiritomb with rest + snarl and Jellicent with taunt are the most reliable counters. Jellicent can be 2HKO'd by psyshock or shadow ball at +1 depending on the Jellicent spread, and Reuniclus can threaten to set up on Spiritomb while it is asleep. The offensive trick room Reuniclus set isn't broken, but it functions well as a late game cleaner. Ban both.

 

[termi]

Reuniclus:
Hmm, I'll be honest, it felt a bit underwhelming, I can see how Reuni is quite hard to bring down, in a way, but RU has many ways to deal with it, even with Doublade now gone, to begin with, we got Scrafty which can set up with either Bulk Up or the more rare Dragon Dance, and has even the bulk to live a ±2 Focus Blast from Reuniclus, Drapion can easily scare it off with its offensive sets or taunt sdef, Spiritomb also stops it, Taunt Hex Jellicent is also a great check for Reuniclus lacking Shadow Ball on their moveset, Houndoom can come in on all Reuniclus moves bar Focus Blast and the proceed to scare it off with Dark Pulse, or even worse set up Nasty Plot on it, Escavalier is a full stop to all Reuniclus' sets even the trick room one, who I never saw in a single battle on the ladder, but I digress, Durant can also come in on Psyshock, Recover or Calm Mind and the proceed to kill it with X Scissors, there are also beasts like Choice Band Tyrantrum who can use Reuniclus's “slowness” in winning so that it can spam Head Smash, and really that means either Cobalion, Steelix, Defensive Hitmontop, Rhyp or something dies, Reuni will always have to behave when facing this guy (if it has Focus Blast) as a single set up opportunity for them could potentially spell doom for the player using Reuni, there are also other stuff like Trick Rotom-Mow that can trick it.

Basically while Reuniclus is a powerful win conditions I don't find him broken at all, there are too many stuff that can take advantage of it that you need to watch out for when using Reuniclus, Reuni also helps checking stuff like Cobalion who is already on every team at the moment even with Noivern and Reuniclus useable, that is not to say Cobalion is broken (yet) but Reuniclus helps check it, you could argue that this is a broken checks broken argument thing, but I don't consider Reuniclus broken at all, and if its presence helps the metagame that's quite cool.
Basically Do not Ban.

I suggest you read through some of the posts in this thread, because it seems like you don't really understand what makes Reuniclus broken according to what appears to be the majority of the people here. When we suspect something, we don't do it necessarily because something has no counters. Reuniclus is a Pokemon that has a couple of checks and counters, indeed, but the problem with it is that there are only a couple of truly reliable anwers to it, Spiritomb being the best example.

A major issue with it, and the reason why I consider it to be a broken presence in the metagame, is the fact that not only does it have a very limited amount of answers (meaning it restrains teambuilding, for not preparing for Reuniclus may very well result in an autoloss), but it is very capable of outliving its own checks and counters. Its abilities are the main culprits here: most Reuniclus run Magic Guard, and the problem with this is that, unlike with many boosting sweepers, Reuniclus loses very, very little by just switching out of something. Your opponent brings Jellicent? Fine, let it Taunt me as I do some solid damage to it, and then I can just switch out. Rotom-C wants to trick it? I'll switch into something that doesn't mind getting Scarfed, and now Rotom-C can't Trick Reuniclus a choice item again, problem solved. Reuniclus, meanwhile, has taken no damage by switching in and then switching back out, because it's immune to hazards. This means it can essentially come in as many as it wants during the battle, maybe recover up a bit if necessary, and switch back out when a check or a counter is about to enter. Only Pursuit trappers can really exploit Reuniclus' ability to switch around this much, and let's be realistic, we can't all start running Pursuit trappers (some of which can still lose to Reuniclus if they don't predict correctly) just to get rid of Reuniclus. Reuniclus can come back in and out (this mostly applies to Regenerator AV sets too, by the way) until its supposed counters are worn down to such a degree that they just lose to it, and at this point it becomes easy for Reuniclus to start boosting.

On the topic of supposed "counters", most of the mons you mentioned are really not reliable answers to Reuniclus to begin with. First of all, the fact that you consider DD Scrafty to be the less common version of Scrafty shows very little metagame knowledge, for DD Scrafty and CB Scrafty honestly are the only sets you should run, BU is blatantly unviable. Meanwhile, non-Chople DD and CB just die to a +1 Focus Blast, so these are far from reliable checks. As for some of the others you mentioned, here's a wall of calcs and shit:

Hide

252 Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 216-254 (50.9 - 59.9%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 4 SpA Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Drapion: 199-235 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 168-198 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Drapion Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 114-134 (26.8 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 4 SpA Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Drapion: 141-166 (41.1 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Provided Reuniclus sets up once before Drapion comes in (a realistic scenario), we see that SD Drapion needs to SD up before it can reliably KO Reuniclus, and it doesn't tank a Focus Blast well at all. If it comes in on the Focus Blast, it just gets 2HKOd after SR. Spdef sets have to Taunt it to win 1v1, but get 3HKOd by Focus Blast and can't even get the guaranteed 3HKO on Reuniclus themselves. It's a check at best, and a pretty shaky one at that.

252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 234-276 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nice check. It can't even OHKO if Reuniclus hasn't set up, and I don't think I have to show you the calcs for Focus Blast on a Houndoom. Setting up an NP on a Reuniclus is madness.

Escavalier beats most Reuniclus sets, except for one, which is uncommon but perfectly viable with some team support: CM Acid Armor Reuniclus. It needs Dark types out of the way before it can sweep, but once that is done, all it has to do is get up an AA before Escavalier gets to attack, and then this happens:
252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 192-228 (45.2 - 53.7%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
Set up another Acid Armor, Recover up, then slowly keep boosting. I've used this set and trust me, AV Escavalier can't hope to beat this without a crit.
252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. +4 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 192-228 (45.2 - 53.7%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
This isn't a super common scenario, but possible if the Reuniclus user used AA on the turn Escav came in and runs enough speed creep to outspeed Escavalier so he can AA again.

I suppose Resttalk SD Escavalier beats Reuniclus under any circumstance, but that set has... its own problems.

Acid Armor sets also beat Durant, and Durant doesn't tank special hits at all, so switching it in is risky business. Oh by the way, OTR Reuniclus does this:
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 324-382 (126 - 148.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Shaky check.

4 SpA Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 320-378 (104.5 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Another very shaky check. You have to predict correctly in order to not be boned. Also, considering clicking any move other than Head Smash (well, bar Outrage, but if yr opponent has a Steel or a Fairy (he does), he can easily exploit that) would give Reuniclus free setup, the Head Smash becomes extremely predictable, and considering Cobalion 4x resists that move and is the most common thing in RU atm... yeah. OTR and Acid Armor sets, meanwhile, can just win vs Tyrantrum, no questions asked.

All of this doesn't even take into account that Reuniclus can switch out pretty safely vs most of these and just come back in later, unscathed. What I have done thus far is show you these things:

• Reuniclus is very versatile and has many viable sets (some you might not see often, but that doesn't mean they're not viable.)
• Reuniclus can come in as much as it wants throughout the battle, for only Pursuit trapping can really punish it for coming in at the wrong time.
• Most of its supposed checks are very shaky and either can't switch in, need great prediction in order to win 1v1, or just straight up lose to some of its sets.
• You need a check or counter, healthy enough to take Reuniclus on, in order to beat it. Playing around it is not possible in most situations.

Reuniclus restrains teambuilding, allows for very little counterplay, has almost no drawbacks, can outlast its answers, and is an overall unhealthy and even broken presence in the metagame. If you still believe otherwise, bring better arguments than "it has some checks and counters I guess", because if you can't, I take that as proof that there really is no reason not to ban this thing.

 

[Miridy]

I never said lack of counters= banworthy I'm aware that a mon might be unhealthy in a metagame even if it has plenty of solid checks like say Landorus-Incarnate or Aegislash, just like a mon with no true counters isn't unhealthy to the metagame like BW OU Hydreigon.
"Broken" is something quite difficult to analyze, excluding special cases when it's quite clear, Noivern here to me is one now, and some times "broken" is on a subjective point of view, so I'd go with their impact in the Metagame, if it is positive or negative.
On the other hand having so many checks means Reuni does not strains teambuilding to unrealistic levels, majority of the stuff I quoted before have other duties other than checking Reuniclus, so it's not like Reuniclus brings teambuilding overcentralization, at least not that much to being banworthy in my eyes.
Apologies for Scrafty, every time I faced one were the Bulk Up version, still it's three more times more common than the Choice Band version, so I wouldn't go ahead and call that completely unviable.
Surely, usage does not mean viability, but in a suspect test, players for the most part use the most useful stuff in order to quickly get reqs and then vote, so it should be considered, since for example Trick Room Reuniclus has like 16% usage with Trick Room on the normal suspect stats (along with other stuff like Ambipom being more used than Reuniclus itself, lol), as we raise the deviation trick room usage lessens, until it goes with "others" in the 1760 usage, it means that players, do not find Trick Room as useful as it should be, and prefers the Calm Mind and to an extent the Assault Vest variants rather than that.


Thanks for the damage calcs, so, does that mean Black Sludge SD Drapion wins the 1 on 1 against Reuniclus even if Focus Blast always hits? Who is going to take on Drapion at +2 now? Surely thanks to Magic Guard Reuniclus is more difficult to kill but that does not help the set up oppurtinities he gives, if Drapion has no recoveries and someone is troubled that Reuniclus will outlast his check, then why not pair it up with a Wish user? We already have two solid wish users, whos usage are not connected to Reuniclus, three if you want to count Mega Audino.
@ Houndoom and Tyrantrum:
I said bar Focus Blast, or are you planning to kill Houndoom with Shadow Ball/Signal Beam? Houndoom wins against any Reuniclus without Focus Blast, while Tyrantrum can come in and spam Head Smash much more easily.

@ Acid Armor:
Of course, its usage is by far much more worse than Trick Room, and for a good reason, you end up with a mono psychic stab in a metagame where Reuniclus is S Rank and hyped, you'll end up giving much more set up opportunities to other stuff so that you can beat Escavalier, Reuni does not have Mega Slowbro's stab and ability that blocks critical hits, more importantly to back up this set, also even with AA in mind, majority of Escavaliers tend to speed creep Reuniclus, so I wouldn't bet on a +4.

All of this doesn't even take into account that Reuniclus can switch out pretty safely vs most of these

Hmm? What do you mean "vs most of these"? All the stuff I posted do not give Reuniclus free space to setup.

I take that as proof that there really is no reason not to ban this thing.

Of course, if Reuniclus ends up banned (which it will anyways, seeing how the vast majority wants them both banned) I'll accept it, just stating my opinion, perhaps even seeing if something may change it, I won't throw a tantrum when Reuniclus will be banned.

 

[Killintime]

This was probably the fastest reqs ive ever gotten and the opinion ive formed for one of the suspects was probably formed just as fast. id like to begin with rueni in this discussion. The set id like to talk about in rueni is the calm mind set.....in terms of the RU tier this mon can actually straight up take a stab knock off from popular mons of the tier like drapion and simply recover off the dmg. that said rueni is also an annoyance to switch into since the coverage moves it carries blows away mons that are meant to check unless you run an awkward EV spread to take a focus blast from a rueni with max hp/sp.def whirlwind drapion. with this in mind the mon can actually set up on more then half the tier forcing a switch 24/7. The next thing on the list i want to discuss is noivern, i mean its pretty straight forward its fast as all hell and can drop big dmg, but do i think its ban worthy? the thing is this suspect i ran registeel with wish support but if i had to look at it on the RU point of view i can see noivern being an annoyance since not much wants to take a specs hurricane or draco....im a little on the fence for noivern but i definitely have my answer for rueni. i hope everyone enjoyed the suspect. as always take a break and kill some time people.

 

[The Leprechaun]

I never said lack of counters= banworthy I'm aware that a mon might be unhealthy in a metagame even if it has plenty of solid checks like say Landorus-Incarnate or Aegislash, just like a mon with no true counters isn't unhealthy to the metagame like BW OU Hydreigon.
"Broken" is something quite difficult to analyze, excluding special cases when it's quite clear, Noivern here to me is one now, and some times "broken" is on a subjective point of view, so I'd go with their impact in the Metagame, if it is positive or negative.
On the other hand having so many checks means Reuni does not strains teambuilding to unrealistic levels, majority of the stuff I quoted before have other duties other than checking Reuniclus, so it's not like Reuniclus brings teambuilding overcentralization, at least not that much to being banworthy in my eyes.
Apologies for Scrafty, every time I faced one were the Bulk Up version, still it's three more times more common than the Choice Band version, so I wouldn't go ahead and call that completely unviable.
Surely, usage does not mean viability, but in a suspect test, players for the most part use the most useful stuff in order to quickly get reqs and then vote, so it should be considered, since for example Trick Room Reuniclus has like 16% usage with Trick Room on the normal suspect stats (along with other stuff like Ambipom being more used than Reuniclus itself, lol), as we raise the deviation trick room usage lessens, until it goes with "others" in the 1760 usage, it means that players, do not find Trick Room as useful as it should be, and prefers the Calm Mind and to an extent the Assault Vest variants rather than that.


Thanks for the damage calcs, so, does that mean Black Sludge SD Drapion wins the 1 on 1 against Reuniclus even if Focus Blast always hits? Who is going to take on Drapion at +2 now? Surely thanks to Magic Guard Reuniclus is more difficult to kill but that does not help the set up oppurtinities he gives, if Drapion has no recoveries and someone is troubled that Reuniclus will outlast his check, then why not pair it up with a Wish user? We already have two solid wish users, whos usage are not connected to Reuniclus, three if you want to count Mega Audino.
@ Houndoom and Tyrantrum:
I said bar Focus Blast, or are you planning to kill Houndoom with Shadow Ball/Signal Beam? Houndoom wins against any Reuniclus without Focus Blast, while Tyrantrum can come in and spam Head Smash much more easily.

@ Acid Armor:
Of course, its usage is by far much more worse than Trick Room, and for a good reason, you end up with a mono psychic stab in a metagame where Reuniclus is S Rank and hyped, you'll end up giving much more set up opportunities to other stuff so that you can beat Escavalier, Reuni does not have Mega Slowbro's stab and ability that blocks critical hits, more importantly to back up this set, also even with AA in mind, majority of Escavaliers tend to speed creep Reuniclus, so I wouldn't bet on a +4.


Hmm? What do you mean "vs most of these"? All the stuff I posted do not give Reuniclus free space to setup.

Of course, if Reuniclus ends up banned (which it will anyways, seeing how the vast majority wants them both banned) I'll accept it, just stating my opinion, perhaps even seeing if something may change it, I won't throw a tantrum when Reuniclus will be banned.

It's generally accepted that focus blast should be the standard move on cm reuniclus in this meta - the only reason it wasn't before May was because of doublade's prevalence in the tier. It's also worth mentioning that checks that were really good last month have dwindled significantly in viability. For example, drapion and houndoom were two of the best mons in the tier, residing in high A and S respectively on the viability ranking. The presence of noivern, scrafty and flygon along with the rise in popularity of cobalion has made it difficult to run these mons and ultimately render them much less reliable checks to reun in the process.

 

[termi]

Miridy Ambipom is used a lot on the ladder (it'd be like #2 in usage stats if we'd use unweighted usage stats) and is completely ass. Shitmons like Claydol and Hitmonchan managed to stay RU for well over a year (Hitmonchan still is, lol). Like you said, usage does not equal viability, and the fact that some sets are used less often than others usually has got more to do with the fact that some sets are safer than others or easier to fit on a team, but as long as a set is considered viable, it should be taken fully into account in determining how versatile a mon is and what checks and counters it. This is also why BU Scrafty should not be considered when saying whether or not it's a good answer to Reuniclus: it may be used on the (lower) ladder, but fact of the matter is that it does nearly nothing that DD Scrafty doesn't do better, and as a result, it's unviable. DD and CB Scrafty are the sets we're taking into account, because those are the sets that are common when we look at the better players of the tier.

@wishpass business: Wishpass is not viable on every team. Alomomola is a very passive mon and generally isn't a good pick for any sort of offensive team. Aromatisse is better fin that regard, but we still have to take into account that a: Wishpass is a huge loss of momentum, and as a result not desirable for any team that relies on momentum to win and b: you can't guarantee Wishpass to always work (if your opponent's Mega Steelix is in on your Aromatisse, for example, then I wish you good luck with passing the Wish safely to a weakened Drapion).

Hmm? What do you mean "vs most of these"? All the stuff I posted do not give Reuniclus free space to setup.

I said it can switch out of most of these things safely, not that it can set up on them for free. Some things may carry Pursuit, but in many cases a Pursuit won't even do serious damage to a 252/252+ Reuniclus, so it's not too big of a deal usually.

 

[Meru]

I think it's overly assertive and a bit of a stretch to say BU Scrafty is unviable although I do agree it faces heavy competition from CB and DD

 

[Miridy]

The Leprechaun Yes Focus Blast is the most used move on Reuniclus, I agree with that, but stuff like Shadow Ball isn't completely useless after Doublade, you get to hit better Jellicent without worrying about the ev spread (special defensive version are much more common, but since Reuniclus has psyshock mainly as its stab pdef version aren't really that much uncommon), Spiritomb and still retain a neutral coverage, you also don't get to miss for what is worth.
Drapion having trouble with Cobalion is true, but at the same time Reuniclus itself also helps against it, I'm not counting Noivern since I believe it should go

Robert Alfons
I already said it about Ambipom, in the normal suspect usage stats Ambipom is used more than Reuniclus, but if you go to the 1760 stats you can see how it has very poor usage, this is the very same situation with Trick Room on Reuniclus, as a matter of fact (Not saying that Trick Room Reuniclus is as bad as Ambipom, but there has to be a reason if we further progress on the ladder "levels" the less we see trick room).
The stats I have reported are the 1760, they are not the "lower" ladder when you see stuff like Ambipom on every teams, on the contrary, Trick Room is listed only on the lower ladder (and as you progress its usage go even lower), while bulk up scrafty is used three times more than choice band scrafty on the "high" ladder.
If you do not trust me: http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-05/moveset/rususpecttest-1760.txt
Wishpass isn't viable on every team, yes, but not every team is supposed to outlive Reuniclus, offense does not outlive stuff usually, they just kill it, this kind of reasoning is more suited to balance (who is still an effective playstyle, that has answers if it really wants to about the outliving Reuniclus stuff).
While it's true they are no real way to punish Reuniclus from switching out, the argument to me is a bit one sided even if Reuniclus has Magic Guard, not everything does laughable damage to it like Alomomola's Scald, especially on offensive teams, who should have plenty of ways to threaten it just enough so that they are not setup fodders to it, we should also consider about how not giving the opponent too much momentum so that Reuniclus can destroy/weaken stuff until it wins, if you do so and are using an offensive team then you'll end up giving Reuniclus an high chance to win, and even then they are still stuff like Spiritomb and Escavalier that are a full stop, and other more offensive (and faster) things that can force him out like Durant or CB Scrafty you mentioned (yeah okay, I get it not everything can switch in against Focus Blast on Reuniclus, but you are not supposed to give Reuniclus free entry so easily when using offense, members preservation also isn't offense's first thought, because offensive teams do not give enough momentum to something that much so that you need ways for its checks to outlive it) even stuff like Tyrantrum who normally dies to Focus Blast still packs a punch with Head Smash, making impossible for Reuniclus to transform them to set up fodders, Cobalion on offense perhaps has more trouble against Reuniclus, giving it free setup opportunities but even then, the player can either opt to taunt it and stop it from setupping, or sd up and pressuring the opponent with a +2 Iron Head and a bonus 30% flinch chance, who'll push the Reuniclus user to attack you and not risk its life, 4 special defensive evs on a max atk max speed Cobalion blocks Reuniclus from ohkoing it, while 4 evs on defense give Reuni a 6.3% chance to ohko Cobalion, I suppose 4 special defensive evs aren't really that much brutal to sacrifice for, right?
Of course, this example is if the offensive team do not have enough powerful members that can stop Reuniclus from setting up, which is a bit doubtful, and sure you lose Cobalion to an horrible death in this situation but you stop Reuniclus from setting up and sweeping you after you lost all your other powerful mons that stops Reuniclus from transforming them to setup fodders.
There is also other stuff like Volt Switch on Cobalion as Reuniclus comes in to setup against you, but it's not really that much used atm so I'll leave it aside, point being offense has ways in order to not give Reuniclus too much momentum even with Cobalion, of course the Cobalion vs Reuniclus scenario isn't pretty, but you don't need it on offense, what you need for offense is to have enough firepower to stop Reuniclus from setting up and win, while also stopping Reuniclus from gaining momentum, and even if you are on a very terrible situation (Cobalion vs Reuniclus as you don't have anymore hard hitting mon against Reuniclus) there are still ways, even if painful to get out of it.

 

[termi]

Miridy was typing shit up but I accidentally removed it and couldn't undo, don't feel like typing much more so I'll keep it very snappy. Basically, every team has at least two things that can be set up on by Reuniclus pretty much for free, and only two things in RU are guaranteed to OHKO Reuniclus. Nothing else reliably revenge kills it, so you have to keep predicting the Reuniclus switchin when you play offense in order to be able to threaten it and not let it set up. The problem is not only that this means that you're constantly pressured to keep predicting correctly, but meanwhile, the Reuniclus user is free to switch Reuniclus in and out and in again because there is no punishment due to Magic Guard. The Reuniclus user is in a favorable situation most of the time. This is unhealthy for the metagame.

Oh yeah by the way, the higher ladder may not be as bad as the lower ladder, but it's still pretty bad sometimes, so if people use BU Scrafty a lot on there, that says more about the quality of these players than about the quality of BU Scrafty. If you ask any of the respected RU regulars on Smogon, the consensus will be that BU Scrafty is a waste. TR Reuniclus may not be used as much by better players, but it has a very distinct niche over Reuniclus' other sets, for it functions in a different way than any other Reuniclus set (more initial firepower, can turn its checks into liabilities), whereas BU Scrafty does basically everything DD Scrafty does, except in a different, yet worse way. Find me a bunch of relevant RU mons that are more likely than not to win vs DD Scrafty that lose to BU Scrafty, and tell me why it's worth it to give up the ability to hit any Fairy type or outspeed and kill any strong special attacker in order to beat these mons.

Not gonna write more on this, if I couldn't convince you in these posts, then any further arguments will be lost on you as well. I recommend you read through this thread, analyze the points that make Reuniclus broken or unhealthy for the metagame according to the pro-ban side and see for yourself if you genuinely believe that Reuniclus is not worth banning.

 

[HypnoEmpire]

Thanks for the damage calcs, so, does that mean Black Sludge SD Drapion wins the 1 on 1 against Reuniclus even if Focus Blast always hits? Who is going to take on Drapion at +2 now? Surely thanks to Magic Guard Reuniclus is more difficult to kill but that does not help the set up oppurtinities he gives.

Why are you relying on Reuniclus to take on Swords Dance Drapion ?_?

I don't think you understand at all. The fact that Reuniclus can beat some of its checks and counters 1v1 is quite impressive as is, but the fact that Pokemon like your SD Drapion can't safely switch into Reuniclus is the problem I see. Very, very few of Reuniclus's answers have reliable recovery and some of them are really frail, so they are either easy to wear down or just get OHKOed or 2HKOed by Reuniclus as it comes in. Of Reuniclus's answers that have recovery, there's Curse Quagsire, RestTalk SD Escavalier, and RestTalk CM Spiritomb. Those are pretty much your only options if you want to take it on defensively. You can't seriously say that it's simple to take on Reuniclus just because it can't beat Swords Dance Drapion 1v1 lol. Also, what relevant Pokemon can actually set up on Reuniclus safely (and by safely, I mean doesn't take over 50% from one of its attacks, doesn't straight up lose to Trick Room, and doesn't lose when Reuniclus starts setting up alongside it)? There are the aforementioned defensive Pokemon, then there's Nasty Plot Cofagrigus, Bulk Up Braviary (which can lose to Trick Room Reuniclus if it tries setting up), and Calm Mind Meloetta, only one of which I've actually seen get any use as of late, so I fail to see how Reuniclus gives many setup opportunities.

Wishpass isn't viable on every team, yes, but not every team is supposed to outlive Reuniclus, offense does not outlive stuff usually, they just kill it, this kind of reasoning is more suited to balance (who is still an effective playstyle, that has answers if it really wants to about the outliving Reuniclus stuff).
While it's true they are no real way to punish Reuniclus from switching out, the argument to me is a bit one sided even if Reuniclus has Magic Guard, not everything does laughable damage to it like Alomomola's Scald, especially on offensive teams, who should have plenty of ways to threaten it just enough so that they are not setup fodders to it, we should also consider about how not giving the opponent too much momentum so that Reuniclus can destroy/weaken stuff until it wins, if you do so and are using an offensive team then you'll end up giving Reuniclus an high chance to win, and even then they are still stuff like Spiritomb and Escavalier that are a full stop, and other more offensive (and faster) things that can force him out like Durant or CB Scrafty you mentioned (yeah okay, I get it not everything can switch in against Focus Blast on Reuniclus, but you are not supposed to give Reuniclus free entry so easily when using offense, members preservation also isn't offense's first thought, because offensive teams do not give enough momentum to something that much so that you need ways for its checks to outlive it) even stuff like Tyrantrum who normally dies to Focus Blast still packs a punch with Head Smash, making impossible for Reuniclus to transform them to set up fodders, Cobalion on offense perhaps has more trouble against Reuniclus, giving it free setup opportunities but even then, the player can either opt to taunt it and stop it from setupping, or sd up and pressuring the opponent with a +2 Iron Head and a bonus 30% flinch chance, who'll push the Reuniclus user to attack you and not risk its life, 4 special defensive evs on a max atk max speed Cobalion blocks Reuniclus from ohkoing it, while 4 evs on defense give Reuni a 6.3% chance to ohko Cobalion, I suppose 4 special defensive evs aren't really that much brutal to sacrifice for, right?
Of course, this example is if the offensive team do not have enough powerful members that can stop Reuniclus from setting up, which is a bit doubtful, and sure you lose Cobalion to an horrible death in this situation but you stop Reuniclus from setting up and sweeping you after you lost all your other powerful mons that stops Reuniclus from transforming them to setup fodders.
There is also other stuff like Volt Switch on Cobalion as Reuniclus comes in to setup against you, but it's not really that much used atm so I'll leave it aside, point being offense has ways in order to not give Reuniclus too much momentum even with Cobalion, of course the Cobalion vs Reuniclus scenario isn't pretty, but you don't need it on offense, what you need for offense is to have enough firepower to stop Reuniclus from setting up and win, while also stopping Reuniclus from gaining momentum, and even if you are on a very terrible situation (Cobalion vs Reuniclus as you don't have anymore hard hitting mon against Reuniclus) there are still ways, even if painful to get out of it.

This is all fine and dandy, but unless your offensive teams consist of only wallbreakers and Bug- and/or Dark-types, Reuniclus will be able to get in vs something on your team. This also fails to take into account Reuniclus's other amazing sets (Trick Room which can pretty much shit all over offense, Choice Specs, Assault Vest, and offensive Calm Mind which I've seen the least of but fairs better vs stall imo while still being able to put solid work in vs other team archetypes). Also, you keep bringing up these Pokemon that can apply pressure to Reuniclus and leave it at low health but all of them can be worn down while Reuniclus can't, so a majority of the time, Reuniclus can beat these Pokemon just by switching in and out and having hazards up. I don't really understand a lot of the rest of your argument. You're implying that Reuniclus is somehow supposed to 6-0 offensive teams and that somehow every Pokemon on said offensive team can deal with Reuniclus, which clearly isn't true. Most offensive teams are going to have at least a couple Pokemon that Reuniclus can switch into and it can just fire off a decently strong attack to wear down its checks.

It would probably be a good idea to address Reuniclus's other sets since the only thing I've really gotten from this is that offensive teams can handle Calm Mind Reuniclus. :/

 

[phantom]

I think it's overly assertive and a bit of a stretch to say BU Scrafty is unviable although I do agree it faces heavy competition from CB and DD

It's not really a stretch though. When you think about it, what does the increased physical bulk do for Scrafty that the Speed and/or resist berry couldn't? You're right in that it faces competition from its other sets, but what's more is that Malamar exists and does the same thing but better. For one, Malamar doesn't give free turns due to the fact that it boosts while attacking, and two, it isn't popped by Fighting-types and Flying-types after is boost and can in fact threaten them unlike Scrafty (offensive bugs are a lot more uncommon, and of them, Escavalier is slower and has no recovery, so it's not having an easy time against Malamar anyway). RestTalk is about as reliable as Shed Skin Rest, and I think the discussion about this was brought up in this NP thread or another, idr.

As a standalone, Bulk Up Scrafty isn't really bad or outclassed, just mediocre, but when you look at in a much bigger context and take notice of how other threats do what it does, but with more consistency, and not to mention that Scrafty's other sets eclipse it in viability, then it is in fact fair to say that Bulk Up Scrafty is unviable. Malamar also has some other neat perks over it like being able to beat Granbull/Hitmontop and all the other useful traits that come with contrary.

I just wanted to say this b/c I'm really sick of people implying that BU Scrafty is viable/good/worth using when it really isn't!!!

 

[shiloh]

So I just got my reqs, and I am just going to dump my thoughts here.

Noivern

I think this mon is completely unhealthy for the tier and should be banned. Due to its High Speed and decent Special Attack stat, it is almost impossible to switch into this threat. With great coverage in its STABs and Fire Blast, almost nothing gets a free switch-in in the tier. The sets I mainly used on the suspect ladder were Specs and Taunt + 3 Attacks, and it pretty much was always able to put in work. Specs had next to no switch ins, and whatever did want to switch in was usually crippled by Switcheroo, or I was able to easily get momentum with U-Turn. Taunt + 3 Attacks usually put huge pressure on Defensive teams, as nothing could realiably switch in and Heal Up, which meant Noivern was easily able to take out pokemon like Alomomola. I think overall the versatility that Noivern has is truely the reason that Noivern is broken and deserves to be banned.

Reuinclus

This one is a much tougher decision for me, as the times I came across on the ladder it was fairly easy for me to handle, but speaking from past experience in the tier I still think it is banworthy. On most of the Balanced and Defensive teams I have used, Reuniclus has been on them. I mainly used the CM + Barrier set and CM + Focus Blast, but I also had fun using the CM + T-Wave set that someone on the forums posted. Just the fact this has next to no switch ins, and has ways to easily beat these switch ins is what makes it so broken. Back when pokemon like Doublade was in the tier, it was a lot more manageable, but as soon as it left for UU it became almost impossible to handle. Just the pressure this is able to put on both Offensive and Defensive teams is what makes me go with the decision to ban it.

 

[tehy]

i've honestly got to disagree with Bulk Up Scrafty being unviable, as I have seen it perform fairly well on stall; keep in mind that it's got to be 252 hp / 252 SpD Calm. The increased physical bulk just allows you to tank a lot of threats that would otherwise give you problems; if you were to run a bulky DD set, you would be outsped by Cobalion and Virizion and Choice Scarf Emboar at +1 and smashed with a Close Combat / Superpower, while Bulk Up can tank them ~fairly well and Drain Punch back. Of course, a vanilla DD set just doesn't provide the bulky switching-in utility.

Of course, the elephant in the room is Malamar, right? Well, here's a question:what does malamar do better? I submit that both lose to fairies (especially with speed creep, which I know user spirit is quite fond of running), and it gets bodied by bug-types. meanwhile, Scrafty doesn't get bodied by much that isn't physical and incapable of OHKOing, meaning it can lash back with a boosted drain punch (sucks about noivern, Bu scrafty is better after bans). In short, malamar arguably has larger problems vs. offense / balance (any stall worth its salt hard counters both of these fuckers). It also is a bit less bulky (surprisingly less than you'd think to be honest), so it has less overall switching-in utility and is easier to just hit hard to death, especially by special attackers. More importantly, it loses to bulky ghosts like Jellicent and Spiritomb, as well as the rare gourgeist-s (will be better after bans too!). Mainly what Malamar has is being able to attack and boost simultaneously, as well as beating Tickle and Intimidate and of course being able to Restalk well, but i'd say scrafty has the overall advantage because it's not forced to rest by status. Scrafty also has the ability to counter Jellicent, whereas Malamar, what with the being forced to rest, hex neutrality, etc, may not.

in short, it's got some cool stuff it can do on stall, and it's not strictly inferior to malamar or DD scrafty. Stay hatin' yo.

 

[phantom]

Of course, the elephant in the room is Malamar, right? Well, here's a question:what does malamar do better?

Probably not being forced out or even lose one-versus-on, even after a boost, to all of Fletchinder, Noivern, other Flying-types, and most Fighting-types (almost all of which check it). Getting "bodied" by Bug-types is an exaggerated flaw considering there's two moderately used Bug-types (three if you count offensive Accelgor) and Escavalier is slower and takes a pretty big chunk from either of Malamar's attacks. I suppose being weak to U-turn has merits as a good argument though, but I've been seeing a lot of Psychics run Dazzling Gleam to beat/prevent other Scrafty sets from setting up on them, and the problem with Bulk Up is that even those Pokemon can revenge kill it as opposed to getting outsped and KO'd by the Dragon Dance set. The key thing with Malamar vs Scrafty is that Malamar can boost to overcome its 4x weakness considering Bug attacks are mostly physical (and unstabbed b/c of U-turn), whereas BU Scrafty loses to random Fairy attacks no matter what it does due to the fact that they come from strong special attackers or bulky ones like Uxie that can easily tank its weak Knock Off.

You say that Malamar is worse versus offense, but that isn't really true considering Scrafty is the one that's losing to a lot more offensive Pokemon than it, so it puzzles me how you even came to that conclusion just by comparing raw bulk as opposed to matchup. Also, I probably wouldn't use Jellicent or any Ghost outside of Spiritomb to counter Malamar unless you enjoy your Ghost taking a huge chunk of damage (50%+ in the case of Jellicent) from Knock Off, being forced to recover (thus giving a free turn), and having a much harder time checking what it usually does.

It's not as if BU Scrafty doesn't have merits, but seeing as how Malamar loses to a lot less more Pokemon, those being more common in comparison to the ones that BU Scrafty beats over Malamar, while also not giving free turns as often and not being too hindered by its 4x weakness in comparison to Scrafty, I'd have to say that it's mostly eclipsed by Malamar. Fairing slightly better against stronger special attackers is a good point though, but Malamar's Speed means it doesn't have to take a hit from the likes of Clawitzer, Exploud, CB Emboar, or even Adamant Tyrantrum because it has the luxury to be Eved to outspeed them, which is also a significant advantage it has over BU Scrafty.

 

[Moon]

I got reqs in the first couple days of suspect but didn't post at the time, was still considering how I felt about the suspects. Most of the posts here seem to show that both will be banned and I agree with a lot of what has been said already. I actually think Reuniclus is very obviously banworthy in this meta and many people have given the reasons as to why.
I'll comment on Noivern because I think it is pretty easy to recognize a meta which is unhealthy due to offensive teams being unable to function well due to one or more threats being too fast and too powerful. Noivern's speed tier requires that you generally need a mon that can take a hit in order to succeed, and the list of mons that can defensively check it also isn't very large. RU has seen this before with Pidgeot (and Moltres to some extent with scarf). In the metas of all of those mons and the current Noivern meta, offensive teams become nearly unviable and most offense is forced to take a more balanced approach (or use bad mons like AV Kabutops in moltres meta, or AV reuniclus in this meta) in order to succeed, leading to the same types of teams being seen over and over. The other option left for offense is to mainly use mons that aren't easily revenge killed by Noivern or can revenge noivern themselves. That list is also pretty small (sneasel, jolteon, glalie, accelgor, and scarfers). Either way, teambuilding is restricted in a very unhealthy way how I see it. It seems the vote will be fairly one-sided but this is my personal take anyway.